College Green Plaza -- public consultation open

LXFlyer

MJohnston wrote: »

Nobody looked at the BXD route and said "hold on a minute, these bus routes going to be crossing a priority tram route, maybe we should be trying to avoid that area?"

As I said, plaza or no plaza, east-west on College Green is going to be extremely degraded thanks to BXD.

Not if there were four lanes of traffic retained on College Green between the junction with College Street and Grafton Street - the two could co-exist.

That as I see it is the principal problem here.

LUAS does not need more than one traffic lane in either direction.

Frankly you seem to be blaming DB here when the real culprits are the local authority and light rail planners who failed to produce a proper plan from the outset.

MJohnston

lxflyer wrote: »

Not if there were four lanes of traffic retained on College Green between the junction with College Street and Grafton Street - the two could co-exist.

That as I see it is the principal problem here.

I really don't see how you could foresee four lanes of traffic being retained once BXD started becoming a reality.

But even if you took that to be true, the northbound route that BXD will take is a new movement that doesn't currently exist, and as it's Luas, I would imagine it'll be heavily prioritized. The same reduction in bus traffic is going to happen at Hawkins & Pearse junction too. East-west, and west-north, bus routes are unarguably going to be degraded massively, and to be honest, if I was running route planning, I would have been thinking about re-routing to avoid these new conflicts entirely.

Devilman40k

MJohnston wrote: »

Nobody looked at the BXD route and said "hold on a minute, these bus routes going to be crossing a priority tram route, maybe we should be trying to avoid that area?"

As I said, plaza or no plaza, east-west on College Green is going to be extremely degraded thanks to BXD.

The original proposal for BXD included 3 lanes of traffic on College Green and Dame Street (not the 2 which DCC later introduced) it allowed for a luas stop on the east side of Westmoreland St causing no conflict with bus routes and causing no issue with east/west flow.

The original DCC plans had a junction at College Green which caused massive conflicts between cyclist and bus modes - DCC realised this and introduced the idea of a plaza - this however was last year (5 years AFTER ND and BXD were designed and approved/implemented)

DCC own plans never existed when BXD and ND were under consultation

MJohnston

lxflyer wrote: »

Frankly you seem to be blaming DB here when the real culprits are the local authority and light rail planners who failed to produce a proper plan from the outset.

Here's the thing - I'm not looking to blame anybody (in part because it seems like quite everybody is at fault in some way or another), I'm more interested in proceeding from the current reality.

Devilman40k

MJohnston wrote: »

Here's the thing - I'm not looking to blame anybody (in part because it seems like quite everybody is at fault in some way or another), I'm more interested in proceeding from the current reality.

The current reality however is a mess.

Interconnection between bus routes - without which ND probably could never have actually worked - will be lost now.

There is a potential for a lot of pain coming up now for bus commuters and DCC solely should bear the brunt of any and all complaints on that front

LXFlyer

MJohnston wrote: »

I really don't see how you could foresee four lanes of traffic being retained once BXD started becoming a reality.

But even if you took that to be true, the northbound route that BXD will take is a new movement that doesn't currently exist, and as it's Luas, I would imagine it'll be heavily prioritized. The same reduction in bus traffic is going to happen at Hawkins & Pearse junction too. East-west, and west-north, bus routes are unarguably going to be degraded massively, and to be honest, if I was running route planning, I would have been thinking about re-routing to avoid these new conflicts entirely.

Why should 4 lanes not be possible?

One southbound shared to Grafton St and one to turn right onto Dame st.

One northbound shared from Grafton St and one for traffic off Dame St.

All things being equal that should be possible if buses are not stopping en route.

Nassau Street should prove that - it's two relatively narrow lanes.

MJohnston

Devilman40k wrote: »

The current reality however is a mess.

Interconnection between bus routes - without which ND probably could never have actually worked - will be lost now.

There is a potential for a lot of pain coming up now for bus commuters and DCC solely should bear the brunt of any and all complaints on that front

The current reality is simply this - BXD will open next year and degrade bus routes crossing or intersecting with it. The plaza is a possible future reality.

MJohnston

lxflyer wrote: »

Why should 4 lanes not be possible?

One southbound shared to Grafton St and one to turn right onto Dame st.

One northbound shared from Grafton St and one for traffic off Dame St.

All things being equal that should be possible if buses are not stopping en route.

Depends on whether you think Luas and DB can share space without effect. Personally I think that's impossible.

Again, I'll point out that there will be a new northbound movement (BXD) introduced to this junction, and a new southbound movement at the Pearse/Hawkins St junction. Bearing in mind that Luas will generally receive priority, I find it an inescapable conclusion that buses traveling through College Green will be negatively impacted, and I think arguably it'll be a massive negative impact.

LXFlyer

MJohnston wrote: »

The current reality is simply this - BXD will open next year and degrade bus routes crossing or intersecting with it. The plaza is a possible future reality.

Any degradation to bus routes at College Green is minimal when compared with the disruption the proposed diversions will cause.

Devilman40k

MJohnston wrote: »

The current reality is simply this - BXD will open next year and degrade bus routes crossing or intersecting with it. The plaza is a possible future reality.

No BXD is not the reason that east/west routing will degrade, DCC's own plans are.

DCC never introduced their plans in the first place.. had they done so 5 years ago, while both operators were in the middle of redesigning how they operated we wouldn't be looking at this mess now.

Also east / west routing is not the sole issue here (it's not even the biggest issue in my opinion), connectivity and ease of changeover is also being lost.

LXFlyer

MJohnston wrote: »

Depends on whether you think Luas and DB can share space without effect. Personally I think that's impossible.

Again, I'll point out that there will be a new northbound movement (BXD) introduced to this junction, and a new southbound movement at the Pearse/Hawkins St junction. Bearing in mind that Luas will generally receive priority, I find it an inescapable conclusion that buses traveling through College Green will be negatively impacted, and I think arguably it'll be a massive negative impact.

Of course there will be some effect, but the reality is that the buses going to/from Grafton St will be sharing lanes with LUAS between Dawson St and College Street regardless.

Buses going to/from Dame St would be subject to traffic lights control at the junction with College St and would be in non-shared lanes.

I doubt that LUAS extension will be getting significant priority in the city centre - many of the Red Line junctions require it to wait for the traffic light cycle to work through.

MJohnston

You're both having trouble separating out what I'm saying about the addition of BXD from the proposed Plaza plans here (Devilman especially). My argument is simply that because of BXD, bus re-routing will become an absolute necessity. I make no presumptions that the proposed DCC plan should be the re-routing that would help alleviate the strain the BXD will bring to the city centre bus network, but I would still assert that bus routes will need to change.

Luas doesn't get priority for all of the day, but it has high priority on most junctions for most of the day, and slightly raised priority (medium) at places like OCS for most of peak hours, I can't see College Green being any different.

LXFlyer

MJohnston wrote: »

You're both having trouble separating out what I'm saying about the addition of BXD from the proposed Plaza plans here (Devilman especially). My argument is simply that because of BXD, bus re-routing will become an absolute necessity. I make no presumptions that the proposed DCC plan should be the re-routing that would help alleviate the strain the BXD will bring to the city centre bus network, but I would still assert that bus routes will need to change.

Luas doesn't get priority for all of the day, but it has high priority on most junctions for most of the day, and slightly raised priority (medium) at places like OCS for most of peak hours, I can't see College Green being any different.

I am pretty sure you will find that LUAS does not have priority at OCS - it has to go through the full traffic light cycle.

Don't get me wrong. I think there will probably be some bus routing changes too but I think that removing the Dame St- College Green route completely is not an option - it's just creating an unholy mess.

The proposals as they stand are a nonsense.

MJohnston

lxflyer wrote: »

I am pretty sure you will find that LUAS does not have priority at OCS - it has to go through the full traffic light cycle.

Nope, it has adaptive priority, there's a small window where it has to wait for a full cycle (low priority). Most of the peak hours on OCS it has to wait for the current traffic PHASE to end, not the cycle (medium priority). The rest of the day it gets the same high priority as elsewhere.

MJohnston

lxflyer wrote: »

Don't get me wrong. I think there will probably be some bus routing changes too but I think that removing the Dame St- College Green route completely is not an option - it's just creating an unholy mess.

The proposals as they stand are a nonsense.

We'll have to disagree there then, because I think bus + Luas mixing is just a recipe for a bigger mess, and will eventually have to be rethought if it is allowed to happen.

LXFlyer

MJohnston wrote: »

We'll have to disagree there then, because I think bus + Luas mixing is just a recipe for a bigger mess, and will eventually have to be rethought if it is allowed to happen.

So in your eyes there should be no buses on any part of College Green?

MJohnston

lxflyer wrote: »

So in your eyes there should be no buses on any part of College Green?

I think there needs to be one lane for Luas, one for Bus each direction. No taxis. No bus stops on CG itself.

LXFlyer

MJohnston wrote: »

I think there needs to be one lane for Luas, one for Bus each direction. No taxis. No bus stops on CG itself.

And how will that work on Grafton St and Nassau St where there is no space for that?

Effectively you're saying four lanes?

MJohnston

lxflyer wrote: »

And how will that work on Grafton St and Nassau St where there is no space for that?

Effectively you're saying four lanes?

You're right, that won't work southbound thanks to the Dame Street turning lane, which you want to retain (I'd like to get rid of the turn). I would like the northbound Grafton St buses to remained re-rerouted as is currently the case, College Street bus stops probably need to be permanently relocated, taxis need to be completely removed from this whole area during peak hours. Trinity needs to be opened up for a cycling route, because cycling through this street without the plaza plan will be exceptionally dangerous (it already is, and when you add tram tracks into the equation, it'll get worse), and should probably be banned here too for now. Bus gate should go 24/7. DB should also examine the possibility to start moving some routes away from CG, plaza or no.

LXFlyer

MJohnston wrote: »

You're right, that won't work southbound thanks to the Dame Street turning lane, which you want to retain (I'd like to get rid of the turn). I would like the northbound Grafton St buses to remained re-rerouted as is currently the case, College Street bus stops probably need to be permanently relocated, taxis need to be completely removed from this whole area during peak hours. Trinity needs to be opened up for a cycling route, because cycling through this street without the plaza plan will be exceptionally dangerous (it already is, and when you add tram tracks into the equation, it'll get worse), and should probably be banned here too for now. Bus gate should go 24/7. DB should also examine the possibility to start moving some routes away from CG, plaza or no.

Well the bus gate will be 24/7, there won't be bus stops on College St due to a LUAS stop being there. There aren't any stops there as it is.

Problem with sending northbound buses the way they go now is that there will be no right turn at the bottom of Dawson St per the LUAS EIS plans.

MJohnston

lxflyer wrote: »

Well the bus gate will be 24/7, there won't be bus stops on College St due to a LUAS stop being there. There aren't any stops there as it is.

Problem with sending northbound buses the way they go now is that there will be no right turn at the bottom of Dawson St per the LUAS EIS plans.

I think Kildare Street is up to the task of taking over from Dawson St, plus it'd remove another street where bus and Luas overlap. When that happens, it degrades both modes.

Phil.x

What's the point in removing cars from this area when two of the heavyweights of public transport rumble through a so called pedestrian area.

Thank God I don't have to go into that part of town at all.

monument

MJohnston wrote: »

We'll have to disagree there then, because I think bus + Luas mixing is just a recipe for a bigger mess, and will eventually have to be rethought if it is allowed to happen.

Trams and buses mixing is not a issue of the space / route is designed for it. It has happened in the Netherlands and elsewhere for tens of years.

You just have to make sure volumes and design is right for it.

MJohnston

monument wrote: »

Trams and buses mixing is not a issue of the space / route is designed for it. It has happened in the Netherlands and elsewhere for tens of years.

You just have to make sure volumes and design is right for it.

Yeah, I agree, that's why I think removing east-west is necessary!

monument

Drawings and different views added to here: http://www.dublincity.ie/college-green

One of the files isn't much better than the photos already posted if the drawings on display at Wood Quay last week.

Bus lanes on quays shown in the posted posted are partly blanked out in one of the new drawings.

It's about time that the published a draft of all the the city centre transport study changes -- clearly College Green and Dame Street are only part of a wider picture.

MJohnston

monument wrote: »

It's about time that the published a draft of all the the city centre transport study changes -- clearly College Green and Dame Street are only part of a wider picture.

Imo they're inextricably linked - you could do the CC transport changes without College Green, but not vice versa.

noelfirl

monument wrote: »

Drawings and different views added to here: http://www.dublincity.ie/college-green

Nice attention to detail in those renders. Trams hanging half way off their railway alignments, trees sprouting in the bus stop outside the central bank.

I know they're just supposed to be indicative but one can't help get worried if the professionals are having trouble getting those bits anything less than exactly right.

MJohnston

Brilliant, even the renders show how bad an idea a bus stop on College Green will be!

trellheim

Brilliant, even the renders show how bad an idea a bus stop on College Green will be!

someone trying obvious foreshadowing. lol

monument

I would not get too caught up on the details of the renderings -- they are just quick outlines to given people an idea of what it'll look like.