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The Dominance of Dublin GAA *Mod warning post#1*
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Not for the first time, you have a load of questions but you failed to answer any put to you. You already know that the 118 figure is flawed. You're desperately scrambling here as you know the figures you provided go completely against your argument.
Let's get some answers from you before the rest of your post is dismantled.
As expected you deflect from the pure guff you’ve posted. Are you saying the GAA have lied in their report to the sports council- that would be fraud and you might want to take it up with the guards, should be easy to prove since they’ve named the individuals in each role.
Are you disputing the numbers they’ve given for Leinster there? Again the individuals are named. I can verify that my own club has the correct name against it, I’m sure others can do the same, so that’s 50% of a resource accounted for from the GAA funds0 -
As expected you deflect from the pure guff you’ve posted. Are you saying the GAA have lied in their report to the sports council- that would be fraud and you might want to take it up with the guards, should be easy to prove since they’ve named the individuals in each role.
Are you disputing the numbers they’ve given for Leinster there? Again the individuals are named. I can verify that my own club has the correct name against it, I’m sure others can do the same, so that’s 50% of a resource accounted for from the GAA funds
Oh dear. Where did I say the GAA has lied? I've said you couldn't understand what you were reading and it appears that this still is the case.
The numbers are correct and it proves what you've been told. Every county in Ireland had under 6 coaches except for Dublin. Most had 2, 3 or 4.
You included third level coaches, 7 of which are in Dublin in the figures for other counties. Do you understand what a third level coach is? Do you now realise what you've been told is correct, every county had very few coaches apart from Dublin?0 -
Oh dear. Where did I say the GAA has lied? I've said you couldn't understand what you were reading and it appears that this still is the case.
The numbers are correct and it proves what you've been told. Every county in Ireland had under 6 coaches except for Dublin. Most had 2, 3 or 4.
You included third level coaches, 7 of which are in Dublin in the figures for other counties. Do you understand what a third level coach is? Do you now realise what you've been told is correct, every county had very few coaches apart from Dublin?
Wait, THATS your complaint? After the bull**** you’ve been posting you’re complaining about the third level coaches? Even though I’ve made it very clear that the breakdown is also in the figures. But you accept the figures at least? So you accept you lied when you said almost every dublin club got a coach funded by the GAA for example? How many coaches should a county have? Dublin has a multiple of population on the others and the coaches are to develop the game in that population. The GAA paid effectively for half of the dublin coaches. How many should dublin have? I’ll make it easy with a scenario if a county with 150k has 6 coaches funded how many should a county with over a million have? Given they’re meant to develop the game in that population0 -
Wait, THATS your complaint? After the bull**** you’ve been posting you’re complaining about the third level coaches? Even though I’ve made it very clear that the breakdown is also in the figures. But you accept the figures at least? So you accept you lied when you said almost every dublin club got a coach funded by the GAA for example? How many coaches should a county have? Dublin has a multiple of population on the others and the coaches are to develop the game in that population. The GAA paid effectively for half of the dublin coaches. How many should dublin have? I’ll make it easy with a scenario if a county with 150k has 6 coaches funded how many should a county with over a million have? Given they’re meant to develop the game in that population
The question is do you accept the figures you've posted? Very few coaches in every county except Dublin. You had to try and throw in administrative staff and third level coaches from Dublin to try to make the numbers in someway respectable and even then that failed. At least now we've established as fact that there were 6 coaches and less available to everyone bar Dublin.
Now that we've cleared that up, let's move on to the Dublin allocation. This will be really illuminating so pay attention. On this link:
https://www.dublingaa.ie/competitions
You can look up the first 3-4 divisions in hurling and football and tell me how many don't have access to a full time coach? Very few. This shows that the funding is being used for top level clubs, not reaching all areas of Dublin GAA as claimed.
You can look through the complete list of clubs if you'd like:
https://www.dublingaa.ie/clubs
As you've pointed out, the coaches are hired by the clubs. They work for them so improving standards within the club is their main task. So let's have a look at the numbers in regards to this and we'll just use the report you linked.
There are about 200,000 players aged between 8 and 18 registered to a club in Ireland. For Dublin, I'm going to be generous and include numbers of participants from hurling and football even though players who play both are being counted twice. That's in and around 24,000 for registered players between 8 and 18 in Dublin. That's 12% of the total.
Of the 170 full time coaches, 54 of them are working for Dublin GAA. That's 31%. And remember, this is for a year where Dublin had lower than their usual number of coaches and also it's 2015, 13 years after the funding began. In the noughties, the gap would have been far bigger.0 -
The question is do you accept the figures you've posted? Very few coaches in every county except Dublin. You had to try and throw in administrative staff and third level coaches from Dublin to try to make the numbers in someway respectable and even then that failed. At least now we've established as fact that there were 6 coaches and less available to everyone bar Dublin.
Now that we've cleared that up, let's move on to the Dublin allocation. This will be really illuminating so pay attention. On this link:
https://www.dublingaa.ie/competitions
You can look up the first 3-4 divisions in hurling and football and tell me how many don't have access to a full time coach? Very few. This shows that the funding is being used for top level clubs, not reaching all areas of Dublin GAA as claimed.
You can look through the complete list of clubs if you'd like:
https://www.dublingaa.ie/clubs
As you've pointed out, the coaches are hired by the clubs. They work for them so improving standards within the club is their main task. So let's have a look at the numbers in regards to this and we'll just use the report you linked.
There are about 200,000 players aged between 8 and 18 registered to a club in Ireland. For Dublin, I'm going to be generous and include numbers of participants from hurling and football even though players who play both are being counted twice. That's in and around 24,000 for registered players between 8 and 18 in Dublin. That's 12% of the total.
Of the 170 full time coaches, 54 of them are working for Dublin GAA. That's 31%. And remember, this is for a year where Dublin had lower than their usual number of coaches and also it's 2015, 13 years after the funding began. In the noughties, the gap would have been far bigger.
Just so we’re entirely clear here what are you including in your 170 full time coaches figure? Are you for example treating two part time as a full time? Which roles as are you including?0 -
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Just so we’re entirely clear here what are you including in your 170 full time coaches figure? Are you for example treating two part time as a full time? Which roles as are you including?
I'm including full time coaches. I can't make it clearer than that.
It really is shocking the gap between Dublin and everywhere else. I've used them before but the difference between Dublin and Cork really shows this up as the scandal that it is. Cork with more clubs, players and a huge amount of territory to cover had 6 or less coaches while Dublin with less clubs, players and a smaller amount of territory got access to almost 9 times the amount of coaches.
Every county had to try their best with between 1 and 6 paid coaches. Why were Dublin provided with so many more coaches? Once again it shows how unbalanced things were placed in favour of Dublin. Let's not forget, the funding gap had closed by 2015. Dublin had well over a decade of even more of an imbalance than 2015.0 -
I'm including full time coaches. I can't make it clearer than that.
It really is shocking the gap between Dublin and everywhere else. I've used them before but the difference between Dublin and Cork really shows this up as the scandal that it is. Cork with more clubs, players and a huge amount of territory to cover had 6 or less coaches while Dublin with less clubs, players and a smaller amount of territory got access to almost 9 times the amount of coaches.
Every county had to try their best with between 1 and 6 paid coaches. Why were Dublin provided with so many more coaches? Once again it shows how unbalanced things were placed in favour of Dublin. Let's not forget, the funding gap had closed by 2015. Dublin had well over a decade of even more of an imbalance than 2015.
And the part time ones? And what job titles GPO? Gdo? Coach? Gda ? Etc
And how are you accounting for the 50% of each dublin coach paid for by the clubs themselves?0 -
And the part time ones?
And how are you accounting for the 50% of each dublin coach paid for by the clubs themselves?
The coaches from the Dublin only scheme? How are they supposed to be counted? In 2015, there were 54 of them.
As I've pointed out, all these coaches were positioned in clubs in the top 4 divisions of Dublin hurling and football. Not many clubs in Dublin didn't have access to a professional coach.0 -
The coaches from the Dublin only scheme? How are they supposed to be counted? In 2015, there were 54 of them.
As I've pointed out, all these coaches were positioned in clubs in the top 4 divisions of Dublin hurling and football. Not many clubs in Dublin didn't have access to a professional coach.
Your argument is that GAA threw money at dublin. The clubs paid half of the cost of those coaches. Is that true for the other coaches in your listing?0 -
The approx. coach to club ratio using a combination of Boom__Boom and tritium figures just for comparison.
Dublin - 76 coaches for 134 clubs a ratio of 0.56
The rest of the country 280 coaches for 1992 clubs a ratio of 0.14
Lets just say that is a significant difference.0 -
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Your argument is that GAA threw money at dublin. The clubs paid half of the cost of those coaches. Is that true for the other coaches in your listing?
Tritium, the figures being bandied about by some posters are in direct opposition to their statements regarding numbers. There is a statement of 54 or 76 GPO's and every club having one. Yet the Dublin club count is 93 or 134 not sure which I believe, I'm no maths guru but 54 or 76 into 93 or 134 does not equate to every club having a professional coach. Some people post untruths and think if they repeat it enough that the majority of their fanbase will buy into it and believe it. Thankfully you are stating facts and not fiction. Fair play to you, you've great patience.0 -
mitchelsontour wrote: »The approx. coach to club ratio using a combination of Boom__Boom and tritium figures just for comparison.
Dublin - 76 coaches for 134 clubs a ratio of 0.56
The rest of the country 280 coaches for 1992 clubs a ratio of 0.14
Lets just say that is a significant difference.
Would you like to adjust for the part paid for by the clubs themselves?0 -
Your argument is that GAA threw money at dublin. The clubs paid half of the cost of those coaches. Is that true for the other coaches in your listing?
My argument is to split Dublin. I've outlined why that has to happen.
Firstly, a detailed plan was drawn up for them by a task force set up by the GAA. Then the finance was given to Dublin to implement the plan that was only available to them. Millions of euro was pumped into Dublin GAA, far above the level of any other county. From this, inevitable improvements in results began across all areas of Dublin GAA. Sponsorship grew from this, from the Vodafone deal to AIG and a multitude of other sponsors. In 2019, Dublin were receiving 2.3 million from sponsorship. Dublin spend 3.8 million on games development in 2019. They spend over 2 million a year on wages and salaries. 1.5 million on team preparations.
So from the initial plan drawn up by the Strategic Review Committee, there was a domino effect and things spiralled out of control. One thing led to another and we've been in a position where one county is operating at a professional level in an amateur sport. That can't be let continue. That's my argument.0 -
How many of the coaches in Dublin are paid by the clubs themselves.mitchelsontour wrote: »The approx. coach to club ratio using a combination of Boom__Boom and tritium figures just for comparison.
Dublin - 76 coaches for 134 clubs a ratio of 0.56
The rest of the country 280 coaches for 1992 clubs a ratio of 0.14
Lets just say that is a significant difference.
Nothing stopping clubs combining together and applying to get these coaches to work with them but then again it isnt needed everywhere.
My own club doesnt have a coach development officer but is lucky enough to have a coach who's job allows him enough time that he can attend/work with the schools in the parish on a very regular basis
Lot more clubs like that nationwide.0 -
mitchelsontour wrote: »The approx. coach to club ratio using a combination of Boom__Boom and tritium figures just for comparison.
Dublin - 76 coaches for 134 clubs a ratio of 0.56
The rest of the country 280 coaches for 1992 clubs a ratio of 0.14
Lets just say that is a significant difference.
The Dublin GAA website lists far fewer clubs:
https://www.dublingaa.ie/clubs0 -
Tritium, the figures being bandied about by some posters are in direct opposition to their statements regarding numbers. There is a statement of 54 or 76 GPO's and every club having one. Yet the Dublin club count is 93 or 134 not sure which I believe, I'm no maths guru but 54 or 76 into 93 or 134 does not equate to every club having a professional coach. Some people post untruths and think if they repeat it enough that the majority of their fanbase will buy into it and believe it. Thankfully you are stating facts and not fiction. Fair play to you, you've great patience.
Ah, your buddy is struggling badly so you tried to give him a hand. The statement was they have a professional coach for nearly every club. You can go through the list of clubs on the Dublin GAA website if you want?
It blows another myth wide open. The money has been used for clubs in the top divisions, not for lesser clubs. This is all about elite development, not the fictional tale that it's for primary school kids.0 -
Festive Life wrote: »How many of the coaches in Dublin are paid by the clubs themselves.
Nothing stopping clubs combining together and applying to get these coaches to work with them but then again it isnt needed everywhere.
My own club doesnt have a coach development officer but is lucky enough to have a coach who's job allows him enough time that he can attend/work with the schools in the parish on a very regular basis
Lot more clubs like that nationwide.
Again, this was a Dublin only scheme. There was very much something stopping clubs from outside Dublin gaining access to it. They weren't allowed as it was Dublin only. Taxpayers provided millions upon millions of euros to fund this Dublin only scheme by the way.0 -
My argument is to split Dublin. I've outlined why that has to happen.
Firstly, a detailed plan was drawn up for them by a task force set up by the GAA. Then the finance was given to Dublin to implement the plan that was only available to them. Millions of euro was pumped into Dublin GAA, far above the level of any other county. From this, inevitable improvements in results began across all areas of Dublin GAA. Sponsorship grew from this, from the Vodafone deal to AIG and a multitude of other sponsors. In 2019, Dublin were receiving 2.3 million from sponsorship. Dublin spend 3.8 million on games development in 2019. They spend over 2 million a year on wages and salaries. 1.5 million on team preparations.
So from the initial plan drawn up by the Strategic Review Committee, there was a domino effect and things spiralled out of control. One thing led to another and we've been in a position where one county is operating at a professional level in an amateur sport. That can't be let continue. That's my argument.
Except your argument is supported by untruths
Almost every club in dublin got a professional coach - DISPROVED
the GAA funded the coaches for dublin entirely -DISPROVED
Counties only get a piddling GD allowance and nothing else - DISPROVED
dublin funding was the source of their success as far back as 2003 - DISPROVED
No other county can generate significant commercial revenue - DISPROVED
the GAA was equitable and fair financially prior to this dublin team - DISPROVED
We could go on- you’ve basically shot yourself in the foot repeatedly with your hyperbole. You’ve deliberately been selective to try to paint as bleak a picture as you could. Unfortunately others can also access the information and it’s pretty easy to poke huge holes in the claims you’ve made0 -
Would you like to adjust for the part paid for by the clubs themselves?
Between 2007 and 2018, Dublin received almost €18m in coaching/game development grants directly from Croke Park. Cork are second with €1.4m, with Derry (€1.3m), Meath (€1.1m), Kildare, Laois, Antrim, Wicklow, Wexford and Offaly taking in just over €1m in that time period.
https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2019/0614/1055359-dublin-funding/
Cannot give a direct answer to your question but the above would probably explain the disparity.0 -
mitchelsontour wrote: »Between 2007 and 2018, Dublin received almost €18m in coaching/game development grants directly from Croke Park. Cork are second with €1.4m, with Derry (€1.3m), Meath (€1.1m), Kildare, Laois, Antrim, Wicklow, Wexford and Offaly taking in just over €1m in that time period.
https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2019/0614/1055359-dublin-funding/
Cannot give a direct answer to your question but the above would probably explain the disparity.
We did this part of the conversation a few pages back, go have a look. Talking about the direct county allocations wrt games development ignores a huge amount of additional funds and how they’re used. It’s basically a tabloid headline and not much else.0 -
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Except your argument is supported by untruths
Almost every club in dublin got a professional coach - DISPROVED
the GAA funded the coaches for dublin entirely -DISPROVED
Counties only get a piddling GD allowance and nothing else - DISPROVED
dublin funding was the source of their success as far back as 2003 - DISPROVED
No other county can generate significant commercial revenue - DISPROVED
the GAA was equitable and fair financially prior to this dublin team - DISPROVED
We could go on- you’ve basically shot yourself in the foot repeatedly with your hyperbole. You’ve deliberately been selective to try to paint as bleak a picture as you could. Unfortunately others can also access the information and it’s pretty easy to poke huge holes in the claims you’ve made
This response to you is from someone who posted in the feedback thread about untruths!!! You couldn't make it up. In horse racing terms they would be referred to as a stayer. Interestingly it appears the Rugby forum had to put up with a similar level of whabaoutery in the past.0 -
Ya I checked that out but there was an info graph
https://twitter.com/GaelicGamesEuro/status/450647697557422082
so went with that just to avoid bias.0 -
We did this part of the conversation a few pages back, go have a look. Talking about the direct county allocations wrt games development ignores a huge amount of additional funds and how they’re used. It’s basically a tabloid headline and not much else.
Disparity to that level surely must have some influence?
Yes /No0 -
Except your argument is supported by untruths
Almost every club in dublin got a professional coach - DISPROVED - You need to go through the list of clubs again. Nearly all clubs have access to a professional coach, especially in divisions 1-4.
the GAA funded the coaches for dublin entirely -DISPROVED I never claimed that.
Counties only get a piddling GD allowance and nothing else - DISPROVED I never claimed that.
dublin funding was the source of their success as far back as 2003 - DISPROVED The development funding has led to 100 titles across Dublin GAA and it was 2002 when it started, this claim has been proved.
No other county can generate significant commercial revenue - DISPROVED I never claimed that
the GAA was equitable and fair financially prior to this dublin team - DISPROVED Have you provided any proof to the contrary?
We could go on- you’ve basically shot yourself in the foot repeatedly with your hyperbole. You’ve deliberately been selective to try to paint as bleak a picture as you could. Unfortunately others can also access the information and it’s pretty easy to poke huge holes in the claims you’ve made
I've put my replies in bold for you there. It shows how desperate you are when you have to make things up.
Here are the claims I've made:
Dublin have had access to far more professional coaches than everyone else - Proven beyond doubt.
Every other county had access to 6 or less coaches - Proven beyond doubt.
Dublin received millions upon millions more in funding than everyone else - Proven beyond doubt.
Dublin had the coaching plan developed for them - Proven beyond doubt.
Dublin receive far more in sponsorship than anyone else - Proven beyond doubt.
Dublin weren't close to being in desperate need of funding compared with other counties - Proven beyond doubt.
Dublin have had a professional coach for nearly every club - Proven beyond doubt.
Dublin have gained huge success off the millions of euro handed to them - Proven beyond doubt.
The money wasn't just for primary school kids - Proven beyond doubt.
The development money began in 2002 and it still is being paid every year - Proven beyond doubt
Dublin footballers have only played 2 away championship games since 2006 - Proven beyond doubt.
Members of the Dublin county board and employees of Dublin GAA admit to the massive difference the development funding has made - Proven beyond doubt.
Basically, any argument in defence of the funding disparity has been completely obliterated.0 -
We did this part of the conversation a few pages back, go have a look. Talking about the direct county allocations wrt games development ignores a huge amount of additional funds and how they’re used. It’s basically a tabloid headline and not much else.
Every county including Dublin received funding from their provincial council. Every county received a similar amount in games development funding except Dublin. Every county had under 6 coaches while Dublin had close to one per club. We've been over all this. The figures show that Dublin were overfunded by a long way.0 -
This response to you is from someone who posted in the feedback thread about untruths!!! You couldn't make it up. In horse racing terms they would be referred to as a stayer. Interestingly it appears the Rugby forum had to put up with a similar level of whabaoutery in the past.
I hope the irony is not lost on you when looking at the list of untruths from your buddy.0 -
mitchelsontour wrote: »Disparity to that level surely must have some influence?
Yes /No
Some influence due to disparity sure. But not really measurable when there’s a piece of funding in that dublin allocation that is funded on a provincial basis to everyone else for just one example. It’s basically apples and oranges.
To be clear I’m happy to acknowledge dublin benefitted from funding, as well as a lot of clever people who made the most of it. I just dispute if it’s at the level some posters on here want to paint. I also dispute the idea that other counties couldn’t use many aspects of the dublin approach to help themselves, or indeed that they couldn’t have been doing it over the past decade or so0 -
Some influence due to disparity sure. But not really measurable when there’s a piece of funding in that dublin allocation that is funded on a provincial basis to everyone else for just one example. It’s basically apples and oranges.
To be clear I’m happy to acknowledge dublin benefitted from funding, as well as a lot of clever people who made the most of it. I just dispute if it’s at the level some posters on here want to paint. I also dispute the idea that other counties couldn’t use many aspects of the dublin approach to help themselves, or indeed that they couldn’t have been doing it over the past decade or so
Dublin receive funding from their provincial council. You know this. The provincial funding for other counties leaves them with between 1 and 6 coaches. You know this. Dublin have far more coaches, nearly one per club, you know this. This was a Dublin only scheme. You know this. It has led to increased income for Dublin GAA. You know this. Dublin GAA now spend close to 4 million per year on games development. You know this.
It's game, set and match here. You know the impact the money and coaches have had on Dublin GAA. 100 titles post funding. You can't bring yourself to admit it, that's your choice.0 -
Dublin receive funding from their provincial council. You know this. The provincial funding for other counties leaves them with between 1 and 6 coaches. You know this. Dublin have far more coaches, nearly one per club, you know this. This was a Dublin only scheme. You know this. It has led to increased income for Dublin GAA. You know this. Dublin GAA now spend close to 4 million per year on games development. You know this.
It's game, set and match here. You know the impact the money and coaches have had on Dublin GAA. 100 titles post funding. You can't bring yourself to admit it, that's your choice.
Dublin have nowhere near one coach per club, you know this
Half of the coaches are in effect funded by the clubs themselves you know this too
It’s just inconvenient for the narriative you want to spin, like so many other facts. It’s a shame because it actually damages your argument with folks who genuinely want to have the conversation about ensuring counties have the opportunity to develop and who are happy to acknowledge that dublin benefited from support to help reverse years of neglect. Your choice though0 -
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Dublin have nowhere near one coach per club, you know this
Half of the coaches are in effect funded by the clubs themselves you know this too
I've already said that the clubs pay for half the wages of the coach in the Dublin only scheme. The rest is paid by taxpayers, the GAA and the Leinster council. This adds up to more than 30 million since 2002.
If Dublin have around 90 clubs and around 75 coaches, that is nearly one per club. Definitely nearly one per club for all the clubs in the top divisions.
Dublin are way overfunded and have access to far more coaches to anyone else. From 2015, Dublin only had 12% of the total of registered players aged 8-18.0
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