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I've Joined a Cult

  • 18-06-2013 10:54am
    #1
    petethedrummer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,604 ✭✭✭


    About 3 and 1/2 months ago, I changed my diet completely. Call it Atkins, paleo, primal or whatever..... it is a very high (saturated) fat, low carbohydrate way of eating. I have pretty much eliminated all sugar, grain, potatoes, pasta, fruit juices, beans, pulses and rice from my diet. For the last 3 months I have had 2 sausage, 2 bacon, 2 eggs and a bit of cheese for breakfast and have never felt better. All cooked in Lard or Butter when I do it. The work canteen grills it all, so thankfully I am not ingesting any vegetable oils.

    For the next month or so I'm going to post some links to information for anyone who is interested in this. If you disagree with the information in the videos I would suggest that you address your complaints to the scientists/doctors/nutritionists in the videos and not to me. I am only an amateur.

    So what made me think this would be a good idea?

    It started with this article: http://www.runnersworld.co.za/nutrition/novel-dietary-ideas/
    and this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bsx72V4IpJY

    Tim Noakes is not a Quack: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Noakes


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Comments

  • #2
    petethedrummer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,604 ✭✭✭petethedrummer


    Here is a multi-part interview with world leading lipidologist Thomas Dayspring and award winning science journalist Gary Taubes. It puts me at ease.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRoxvI1p1Bc&list=PL0A01EBCE2711A5A5&index=1

    Taubes deserves a nobel prize for his writing on nutrition.


  • #3
    wildlifeboy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,170 ✭✭✭wildlifeboy


    jesus what a boring pain in the hole that would be to only eat that stuff for the rest of your life. i would rather be a little lumpy than suffer through all that nonsense!


  • #4
    yop
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators, Regional West Moderators Posts: 16,724 Mod ✭✭✭✭yop


    Did something like this for a few months a few years ago, worked well for maybe 10 weeks and then boredom sat in and I couldn't handle the taste of any more fries. I did lost about 1/2 stone in total, but it went on again rapidly.

    Then about 3 years ago I changed my diet to smaller more regular portions and did daily exercise, running and cycling and have thrown off nearly 3 stone.

    Each to their own, but short term it might have a result but long term it might cause more harm.


  • #5
    petethedrummer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,604 ✭✭✭petethedrummer


    wildlifeboy wrote: »
    jesus what a boring pain in the hole that would be to only eat that stuff for the rest of your life. i would rather be a little lumpy than suffer through all that nonsense!

    Depends what you consider suffering. On a regular diet I suffer from blood sugar drops, constant tiredness, an inability to get out of bed, muscle inflammation post excercise, general irritability (no way!), constantly run down. All eliminated. You might be grand on a high carb diet. Some people thrive on that. Some of us don't.


  • #6
    yop
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators, Regional West Moderators Posts: 16,724 Mod ✭✭✭✭yop


    petethedrummer wrote: »
    Depends what you consider suffering. On a regular diet I suffer from blood sugar drops, constant tiredness, an inability to get out of bed, muscle inflammation post excercise, general irritability (no way!), constantly run down. All eliminated. You might be grand on a high carb diet. Some people thrive on that. Some of us don't.

    Thats not a regular diet, thats just gimmick. If you take in the right portions, eat good food, non processed as much as possible and get plenty of sleep you will not suffer those. Inflammation isn't a dietary cause, see your GP or physio.


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  • #7
    petethedrummer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,604 ✭✭✭petethedrummer


    yop wrote: »
    Did something like this for a few months a few years ago, worked well for maybe 10 weeks and then boredom sat in and I couldn't handle the taste of any more fries. I did lost about 1/2 stone in total, but it went on again rapidly.
    I didn't have any weight problem. My BMI was in the normal range. I changed my diet for the other wellness issues mentioned.
    yop wrote: »
    Each to their own, but short term it might have a result but long term it might cause more harm.
    Unless my body is playing once massive practical joke on me then I would say this is healthy for me. I'm still waiting for it to kick back and tell me this is wrong. I went into this expecting it to be wrong but it I have no reason yet to believe so. I will update if it all goes horribly wrong. I'll be getting a cholestorol check in the next week or two. I'll get some historical results from my doctor so that I can make a comparisron. At my last check (about 3 years ago) he said it was slightly high.


  • #8
    petethedrummer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,604 ✭✭✭petethedrummer


    yop wrote: »
    Thats not a regular diet, thats just gimmick. If you take in the right portions, eat good food, non processed as much as possible and get plenty of sleep you will not suffer those.

    When I said High carb diet in the previous post. I meant relative to the amount I eat now. It was not 80% of my diet or anything bonkers like that. I always got plenty of sleep in fact I am probably the best sleeper I know and had a healthy diet. Maybe slightly too much sugar. Had a balanced diet, have a lots of good options in the work canteen (fresh fruit / Salad counter / fish / lean meat). I cook pretty much all my own meals and eat very little processed food. And excercised portion control.

    yop wrote: »
    Inflammation isn't a dietary cause, see your GP or physio.
    Well I'll have to disagree on that. Been to a physio. main piece of advise. Take in a load of carbs after excercise! to restore glycogen. I didn't bother arguing.


  • #9
    wildlifeboy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,170 ✭✭✭wildlifeboy


    petethedrummer wrote: »
    Depends what you consider suffering. On a regular diet I suffer from blood sugar drops, constant tiredness, an inability to get out of bed, muscle inflammation post excercise, general irritability (no way!), constantly run down. All eliminated. You might be grand on a high carb diet. Some people thrive on that. Some of us don't.

    wow well i have none of those problems so if it works for you then so be it. i look after what i eat for the most part. lean meat, veg, fruit, oily fish, minimal dairy, hardly any starchy carbs. no chips. roast potatoes of a sunday :)

    excercise three times a week minimum trying for 5 at present. i am 12 stone on the nose at 5.11 height. defo need to cut out the beer or severly cut down.


  • #10
    Lumen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,137 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    Your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

    Specifically, what about the meals other than breakfast? Or do you just eat three breakfasts a day?


  • #11
    petethedrummer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,604 ✭✭✭petethedrummer


    wildlifeboy wrote: »
    wow well i have none of those problems so if it works for you then so be it. i look after what i eat for the most part. lean meat, veg, fruit, oily fish, minimal dairy, hardly any starchy carbs. no chips. roast potatoes of a sunday :)
    I had already known that starchy/stodgy meals made me sleepy. So I mostly ate salads in work anyway. I still do have the occasional spud with a roast, a bit of brown bread here and there with a salad and a bun on my double quarter pounder on a night out. So to say I eat 0 carbs may be an exaggeration, but my consumption is tending towards 0.
    wildlifeboy wrote: »
    excercise three times a week minimum trying for 5 at present. i am 12 stone on the nose at 5.11 height. defo need to cut out the beer or severly cut down.

    I am almost exactly the same build as you. And was exercising 4-5 days a week. I have now stopped drinking beer and sugary shorts (was never much of a fan) and now mainly drink red wine and the occasional Guinness. Hangovers are drastically reduced as long as I don't get mouldy drunk. I would often have to stay in bed till 7pm to get over a night out even as a young fella. The monday/tuesday fear has been eliminated and can only be induced by going on an all weekend bender.


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  • #12
    yop
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators, Regional West Moderators Posts: 16,724 Mod ✭✭✭✭yop


    petethedrummer wrote: »
    When I said High carb diet in the previous post. I meant relative to the amount I eat now. It was not 80% of my diet or anything bonkers like that. I always got plenty of sleep in fact I am probably the best sleeper I know and had a healthy diet. Maybe slightly too much sugar. Had a balanced diet, have a lots of good options in the work canteen (fresh fruit / Salad counter / fish / lean meat). I cook pretty much all my own meals and eat very little processed food. And excercised portion control.


    Well I'll have to disagree on that. Been to a physio. main piece of advise. Take in a load of carbs after excercise! to restore glycogen. I didn't bother arguing.

    That alone would keep your weight up. Its to understand what your body can and can't take. Its like eating well all week and then having 10 pints at the weekend, your not going to lose a lb of week.
    500 cals extra over the week equates circa 1/2 lb gain.


    If you type in "Cocaine is good" into youtube, you will probably find someone who is promoting cocaine.

    As I said each to their own, but short term "results" won't determine a diet like that long term. I have been there and tried them all, fads at the end of the day.
    Eat right, measure it, understand it and then you will get results.


  • #13
    yop
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators, Regional West Moderators Posts: 16,724 Mod ✭✭✭✭yop


    petethedrummer wrote: »
    I had already known that starchy/stodgy meals made me sleepy. So I mostly ate salads in work anyway. I still do have the occasional spud with a roast, a bit of brown bread here and there with a salad and a bun on my double quarter pounder on a night out. So to say I eat 0 carbs may be an exaggeration, but my consumption is tending towards 0.



    I am almost exactly the same build as you. And was exercising 4-5 days a week. I have now stopped drinking beer and sugary shorts (was never much of a fan) and now mainly drink red wine and the occasional Guinness. Hangovers are drastically reduced as long as I don't get mouldy drunk. I would often have to stay in bed till 7pm to get over a night out even as a young fella. The monday/tuesday fear has been eliminated and can only be induced by going on an all weekend bender.

    Get off the fry up diet and you will lose even more weight. What you changed above alone would have reduced your weight.


  • #14
    petethedrummer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,604 ✭✭✭petethedrummer


    yop wrote: »
    Get off the fry up diet and you will lose even more weight. What you changed above alone would have reduced your weight.
    I don't need to lose weight. My BMI is fine and has been fine for years. Ask anyone on the Evil 200.

    That's me in the red pre-diet change. It was roughly 23.7 depending on whether I had taken a dump or not. Though I didn't own a weight scale so my weight was only checked infrequently when at my parents house.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=81930344&postcount=1395


  • #15
    yop
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators, Regional West Moderators Posts: 16,724 Mod ✭✭✭✭yop


    Ok, so you didn't need to lose weight and all your stats are ok.

    It will be interesting to see what the results are in a years time for sure.

    Good luck with it.


  • #16
    petethedrummer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,604 ✭✭✭petethedrummer


    yop wrote: »
    That alone would keep your weight up. Its to understand what your body can and can't take. Its like eating well all week and then having 10 pints at the weekend, your not going to lose a lb of week.
    500 cals extra over the week equates circa 1/2 lb gain.
    Like I said, I did not have a weight problem. And I do not believe in calories in calories out or exercise as a means of maintaining weight.
    yop wrote: »
    If you type in "Cocaine is good" into youtube, you will probably find someone who is promoting cocaine.
    Reliable data from long term dietary studies repeatedly show that a high saturated fat low carbohydrate diet are healthy. *EDIT*. Let me correct this. What most of the studies show is that lowering saturated fat does not reduce all cause mortality to statistically significant degree. Anyone interested should read about the French Paradox, you could also add the Austrians and the Swiss in there as they have the highest consumption of fat in Europe. And the lowest rates of heart disease. Japanese traditionally had low saturated fat in take and low heart disease but an enormous incidence of stroke. A reduction in stroke has closely correlated with an increase of saturated fat in the japenese diet. I underline correlate as causation and correlation need to very closely inspected when talking about nutritional science.
    yop wrote: »
    As I said each to their own, but short term "results" won't determine a diet like that long term. I have been there and tried them all, fads at the end of the day.
    Eat right, measure it, understand it and then you will get results.

    I have long term results on the "correct" diet and they were terrible. I have 3 months results on a LCHF diet and they are overwhelmingly positive. And I refuse to measure calories in and calories out. It's a joke. The daily requirement is a guestimate. Measuring carlories burned is guesswork and measuring calories consumed is also guesswork. And i am not recording those 3 dodgy figures in to a spreadsheet every day. It's craziness.


  • #17
    petethedrummer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,604 ✭✭✭petethedrummer


    Lumen wrote: »
    Your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

    Specifically, what about the meals other than breakfast? Or do you just eat three breakfasts a day?
    I'll get back to you. I need to do some work today.


  • #18
    Beasty
    Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 77,511 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    Well Pete, your "new" diet comprises pretty much everything I detest (except for the cheese and butter)


  • #19
    petethedrummer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,604 ✭✭✭petethedrummer


    Beasty wrote: »
    Well Pete, your "new" diet comprises pretty much everything I detest (except for the cheese and butter)

    Just had pork belly for lunch with extra crackling and also my colleague's crackling. With a salad. Man I love dieting.


  • #20
    detones
    Registered Users Posts: 964 ✭✭✭detones


    Pete is this a wind up? Be honest or has Homer Simpson hacked into your boards account.

    Are you still training and cycling on this diet, surely complex cabs are all cyclist friend? What do you do for fuel on a spin instead of bannanas/jelly beans etc. pull a bit of Clonakilty Black Pudding out of your pack pocket ;-) I would be intrigued if you find a no/low carb diet is working for you, but you must realise there has to be some serious health consequences to living off that crap. I will admit my own diet is not the best and I tend to eat like a horse but even for me this sounds mad. Also how are you not getting sick of sausage/eggs/bacon, I find even when I'm away for a few days in a hotel after 3 days i get sick of the Fries and find myself reaching for the fruit/cereal.


  • #21
    TinyExplosions
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,860 ✭✭✭TinyExplosions


    I would love sausage/eggs/bacon every day -especially if it was good for me hell I'd eat nothing but if I could :)


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  • #22
    petethedrummer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,604 ✭✭✭petethedrummer


    detones wrote: »
    Pete is this a wind up? Be honest or has Homer Simpson hacked into your boards account.
    Given my posting history I understand your skepticism. But no it is not a wind up.
    detones wrote: »
    Are you still training and cycling on this diet, surely complex cabs are all cyclist friend?

    not mine. And not it seems Bryan McCrystal and he's a proper athlete. I was training on it and had abundant energy, I started playing football again as I was feeling 17 again but had a recurrence of an old hamstring issue when stretching for a ball. So training is light at the moment and I'm off the football. I did a good lot of the Evil 200 with no training. Hamstring/Groin did me in towards the end, not energy levels.
    detones wrote: »
    What do you do for fuel on a spin instead of bannanas/jelly beans etc. pull a bit of Clonakilty Black Pudding out of your pack pocket ;-)
    mainly almonds, brazil nuts, macadamias, maybe some chorizo sausage and an egg. Absolutely no sugar, cereal bars or fruity/sugary drinks.
    detones wrote: »
    I would be intrigued if you find a no/low carb diet is working for you, but you must realise there has to be some serious health consequences to living off that crap..
    That's why I have read extensively this entire time. There is no scientific backup to most of our modern dietary recommendations. And there is nothing wrong with animal fat. Quite the opposite.
    detones wrote: »
    I will admit my own diet is not the best and I tend to eat like a horse but even for me this sounds mad. Also how are you not getting sick of sausage/eggs/bacon, I find even when I'm away for a few days in a hotel after 3 days i get sick of the Fries and find myself reaching for the fruit/cereal.
    It depends how the fry is cooked. A fry in vegetable oil is truly disgusting. Done in ghee butter on a low heat it is thing of wonder.


  • #23
    petethedrummer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,604 ✭✭✭petethedrummer


    TinyExplosions wrote: »
    I would love sausage/eggs/bacon every day -especially if it was good for me hell I'd eat nothing but if I could :)

    Well you would overdose on protein which is not healthy. You need veg and fat.


  • #24
    TinyExplosions
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,860 ✭✭✭TinyExplosions


    petethedrummer wrote: »
    Well you would overdose on protein which is not healthy. You need veg and fat.

    booo ;(

    On a serious note though, I've recently started to cut down on the carbs myself -not jumped in to quite the extent you have, but I could see myself doing it in the not to distant future


  • #25
    Dr Nic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,323 ✭✭✭Dr Nic


    petethedrummer wrote: »
    this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bsx72V4IpJY

    Tim Noakes is not a Quack: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Noakes

    He tells a lovely story all based on a falacy. 'So thats what we were designed to eat...' ah, says who? Show me the design plans...


  • #26
    petethedrummer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,604 ✭✭✭petethedrummer


    TinyExplosions wrote: »
    On a serious note though, I've recently started to cut down on the carbs myself -not jumped in to quite the extent you have, but I could see myself doing it in the not to distant future

    I'm not advising anyone take this on if you feel healthy on your current diet or don't suffer from blood sugar slumps and sugar cravings. I am just relaying my experiences for anyone who may have the same issues as me on a 'correct' diet.


  • #27
    detones
    Registered Users Posts: 964 ✭✭✭detones


    Well if you think it's working for you fair play. I have some serious doubts about it and have not had time to read the links you posted yet, but will have a gander later. On a positive note if the new diet doesn't work out you can always use the excess grease the Cardiac Surgeon clears from your quadruple bypass operation to lube your bike ;-)


  • #28
    Dr Nic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,323 ✭✭✭Dr Nic


    I love these anecdotal stories we have to prove everything about everyone from a case study with a sample size of 1. What about bias, confounding factors, recall error?

    if im going to put my faith in any diet (theres not many with scientific backing) it wont be one I can purchase for 4.99 at a truckers restaraunt at 1am thank you...


  • #29
    petethedrummer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,604 ✭✭✭petethedrummer


    Dr Nic wrote: »
    He tells a lovely story all based on a falacy. 'So thats what we were designed to eat...' ah, says who? Show me the design plans...
    So he's lose with his terminology. I'd take a bet he believes in evolution. Like I said Tim Noakes is a very highly respected sports scientist. Sports scientist to SA when they last won the rugby world cup. His book waterlogged definitively dispelled all the hydration nonsense the drinks companys spout. He also wrote the lore of running which was a hugely influential. And like all good scientists he admits when is wrong. He admits he got it wrong about nutrition.

    Send him an email if you disagree.


  • #30
    petethedrummer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,604 ✭✭✭petethedrummer


    I wasn't expecting this much of a response. I'll be back tomorrow with another link and more heresy(idiocy!). I'm off to lick a cow.


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  • #31
    Lumen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,137 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    Dr Nic, which part of "I've Joined a Cult" do you not understand?


  • #32
    ROK ON
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,831 ✭✭✭ROK ON


    Will be watching this thread with interest.

    It should be relatively easy for me to adhere to this diet in that I pretty much detest pasta and rice (other than risotto). However I like bread and cake and spud.

    Anyhow when you say you don't eat sugar, you do mean I bthe processed form?

    You can eat fruit, correct?
    What about unprocessed maple syrup or honey/honeycomb?

    A local cheesemaker of mine makes a fantastic blue - Beara Blue. It is gorgeous as a sale with some nice leaves, honeycomb and pecans.


  • #33
    Lumen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,137 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    ROK ON wrote: »
    It should be relatively easy for me to adhere to this diet in that I pretty much detest pasta and rice (other than risotto). However I like bread and cake and spud.

    I have read that whilst a very low carb/high fat diet can be healthy, and a very high carb/low fat diet can be healthy, a high carb/high fat diet will kill you.


  • #34
    ROK ON
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,831 ✭✭✭ROK ON


    Lumen wrote: »
    I have read that whilst a very low carb/high fat diet can be healthy, and a very high carb/low fat diet can be healthy, a high carb/high fat diet will kill you.

    That is part of the point.
    I notice in the South of France that when folks eat carbs( say at breakfast) they are only eating carbs.
    Then at dinner it's salads and protein with damn all carbs.
    Food groups are isolated from one another so to speak. Similar in certain parts of Italy.


  • #35
    petethedrummer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,604 ✭✭✭petethedrummer


    ROK ON wrote: »
    You can eat fruit, correct?
    What about unprocessed maple syrup or honey/honeycomb?
    I eat some fruit but not fruit juice. I eat alot of berries. As for honey I don't know. I haven't looked into it. Lowering my carb intake has turned off my sugar cravings and I simply don't crave sweet things anymore. I am out of the 4 o'clock sweet machine gang. Though I do have the odd cappuccino with the chocolate sprinkled on top. I ask them not to put it on if I think of it beforehand.

    There is a debate going on over fruit. Some say it is fattening. People like Robert Lustig say that in whole form it comes with fibre and because of that the effect on the blood sugar is greatly reduced. I simply don't know, my reading hasn't taken me down fruit street yet.
    ROK ON wrote: »
    A local cheesemaker of mine makes a fantastic blue - Beara Blue. It is gorgeous as a sale with some nice leaves, honeycomb and pecans.
    Sure eat away. I get some carbs and sugar in some of the foods I eat (carrots/beetroot for example). There is no need to go bonkers. I just don't eat the large sources of it. Your body can deal with it in small amounts. And some people can handle enormous amounts. I can't.


  • #36
    petethedrummer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,604 ✭✭✭petethedrummer


    Lumen wrote: »
    I have read that whilst a very low carb/high fat diet can be healthy, and a very high carb/low fat diet can be healthy, a high carb/high fat diet will kill you.
    Yes, I have read something similar. I think Robert Lustig is of the opinion that sugar combined with fat is lethal combination. I have watched his talks but not read his books yet. Most of my reading has been related to Fats and Cholestorol rather than sugars and obesity.


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  • #37
    Dr Nic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,323 ✭✭✭Dr Nic


    ROK ON wrote: »
    Then at dinner it's salads and protein with damn all carbs.

    Salads have no carbs? Sounds like my old man offering my vegetarian girlfriend lamb...


  • #38
    niceonetom
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,833 ✭✭✭niceonetom


    So you've finally decided to go recruiting. Well at least the Cult of Keto doesn't send you door to door. And how have we gotten this far into the thread without instagram foodp0rn of steak or the like - that's mandatory for Paleotards, no? You're not properly paleo until you're paleo on the internet.

    Full disclosure: I've been dabbling with a generally paleo diet since last autumn and, while I'm nowhere near as far down the rabbithole as you are, Pete, but I have an idea where it goes. I do not subscribe to the low/no carb aspect of it - it's a misconception to see Paleo as necessarily ketosis oriented, it's really macro-nutrient agnostic - if you follow a paleo diet you well certainly eat less carb and a lot less sugar simply because these are comparatively rare in unprocessed foods (and paleo counts anything that contains grains as processed). I do eat sweet-potato and starchy roots veg which aren't compatible with keto. I also eat a ridiculous amount of fruit, though most lower sugar fruit like apples and berries. I haven't gone Keto and am still unconvinced of its compatibility with the requirements of road cycling (though I know it's now nearly mandatory for ultrarunners and ironmanists).

    I found that on a paleo diet my weight came down a little (though I don't really need to lose weight) and my body composition changed for the better.

    Seeing as there's a good amount of overlap between what I aspire to eat (I fall off the wagon often) and what you actually eat, I think I'll set up some skittles for you to knock down. Put all that reading to use. These are the conventional wisdoms that are already in this thread and must be addressed to deal with the core ideas of these diet. So:
    • Fat, especially saturated fats like lard, butter and coconut oil, are good for you. The supposed link between such fats and heart disease is incorrect.
    • Red meat, including fatty meat, is fine. Eat it.
    • Eggs are fine. Eat them. A lot.
    • Grains like wheat, corn, rye and even rice are not a natural or healthy part of the human diet. They should be avoided.
    • Legumes are bad too for similar reasons.

    I think if you can address those then a lot of the WTF reactions you get from people when they find out that you, say, eat more than 20 eggs a week (as I do), might go away.

    Anyway, good thread. I'm looking forward to seeing how it progresses.


  • #39
    petethedrummer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,604 ✭✭✭petethedrummer


    Yes Tom, I finally went full retard.
    niceonetom wrote: »
    Put all that reading to use. These are the conventional wisdoms that are already in this thread and must be addressed to deal with the core ideas of these diet.

    Lol gimme a chance sheesh, 1 day in and only expected to post 2 youtube videos. I will slowly drip good books, papers and videos I have come across. Someone should start a pro-carb thread or a pro-vegetarian one. It would be interesting to hear from all angles. There is a lot to read and I don't have time to go down every route. I also am not coming from this from a weightloss angle so I cannot say it is a panacea for weight issues.

    Also I am not a paleo. Lots of what I eat was not around in paleo times. It is High Fat Low Carb. I do not want a catchy title. Though I do like the idea of a tiger skin loin cloth.

    As for me saying to you via PM that I had been in Ketosis. I am now not sure on that, it may have been an increased feeling of wellness due to the elimination of blood sugar issues. I may have been close. I don't have ketone monitor and I don't intend to measure this stuff (except for a quick cholesterol check) and will go by feel.


  • #40
    niceonetom
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,833 ✭✭✭niceonetom


    petethedrummer wrote: »
    Also I am not a paleo. Lots of what I eat was not around in paleo times. It is High Fat Low Carb. I do not want a catchy title. Though I do like the idea of a tiger skin loin cloth.

    I didn't mean to imply that you were paleo (though you did that yourself in your first post), in fact I meant to draw the distinction between your explicitly HFLC diet and the macro-agnostic Paleo model.

    And "paleo" or "primal" as a term shouldn't be taken to mean "eating like a cave man" though that's how some describe it (usually its critics), it's really just a loose way of describing a whole slew of diets united around a basic agreement that much of what we eat today is a result of first the agrarian and then the industrial revolution and shouldn't necessarily be treated as healthy. We know that it's essentially impossible to mimic the actual diet of some notional hunter-gatherer ancestor, and even if it were it wouldn't necessarily be ideal or even very healthy. But there is a general consensus among these various strands that the taming of wheat and other grains is something that we, biologically, aren't all well adapted to dealing with, and that the much later industrialisation of food production to massively increase the availability of sugars is a bad thing.

    Those basic ideas face a lot of challenges though. The conventional wisdom, half-understood and strongly held, is that fat makes you fat (and die of heart disease) while grains in bread or pasta, rice, breakfast cereal etc. should form the base of our diet. The paleo (and even more so the HFLC) diet is very counter-intuitive to a lot of people, that's why I'm challenging yo to justify the basic tenets.


  • #41
    Ole Rodrigo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,013 ✭✭✭Ole Rodrigo


    Pete, if I may weigh in with some support for what you are saying, I too have been reading up on some of this, and as niceonetom says, the Paleo/ Primal view is principally about avoiding foods that our bodies have not completely adapted to ( post agrarian ) and avoiding those which raise blood sugar to excess ( one and the same thing as it turns out ). Mark Sisson ( a former triathlete but we'll let him away with that ) runs a blog in which he has collated much research, including that of Gary Taubes, to support the primal view. You could distill all of his articles into saying that with diet, there are degrees of healthfullness. One the healthiest side you have a diet rich in organic meats and wild fish, fresh leafy greens and root vegetables, nuts and seeds and low sugar fruits such as berries. Then things deviate on a sliding scale over to the least healthful, which are foods high in processed grain and sugars which offer little or no micro nutrients and wreak havoc on the digestive system and blood sugar. Everything else is between those two opposites at some point.

    Mark Sisson points out that with a reasonable degree of fitness ( your body conditioned to use fat stores for energy ) its possible to engage in most amateur level cardio sports without having to resort to sugary carbs for energy. Ive tested this myself too and he's right. Fruit is enough for recovery afterwards.

    Running counter to the Prinal view is the high carb low saturated fat model, which has many advocates in sports nutrition( especially cycling ) and the burgeoning ' Nutrarian ' point of view ( Joel Furhman ). What they both have in common is the emphasis on lots of fruits, vegetables ( especially leafy greens ) , nut and seeds. The difference is crucially about calories. Fat ( animal protein ) provides a convenient source of calories, so you don't have to sit there munching through 10 kilos of spinach to get 2500 calories. And grains do the same. The debate is whether good quality grains ( wholegrains, oatmeal, brown rice ) are a better energy source than saturated fat ( animal foods ) Mixing the two however, can lead to problems. Most human cholesterol is created by the body, up to 75%, the principle mechanism of this is raised blood sugar. The remaining 25% comes from animal products ( fat ). So the principle cause of high cholesterol is the manner in which the body creates it. A diet that supports cholesterol production (high in sugar and grains ) mixed with a diet that ingests cholesterol ( animal fats ) will likely cause problems. Tackling the means of production is the best strategy rather than not eating eggs.

    The Primal critics point out that people have been adapting to different diets throughout history. Primal advocates respond with the ' degrees of healthfulness ' principle.

    Lastly, what they all fail to emphasise is that a lot of people manage to eat healthfully without resorting to labels and food gurus ( although in fairness Mark Sisson and Michael Pollan do to some degree ). What they all do is emphasise a diet high in fresh fruit, vegetables nuts and seeds - and low in processed foods. The quote from Michael Pollan is ' Eat food ( as in real food ), not too much - mostly plants " .

    Disclaimer: This is not medical advice :pac: My sources of info were:

    www.marksdailyapple.com
    Eat to Live, by Joel Furhman.
    In Defense of Food, Michael Pollan.


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  • #42
    Ole Rodrigo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,013 ✭✭✭Ole Rodrigo


    ROK ON wrote: »
    That is part of the point.
    I notice in the South of France that when folks eat carbs( say at breakfast) they are only eating carbs.
    Then at dinner it's salads and protein with damn all carbs.
    Food groups are isolated from one another so to speak. Similar in certain parts of Italy.

    A salad - presumably with just greens and root vegetables - has plenty of carbs. The calories from a salad with meat and greens and veg will be mostly fat, then protein and carbohydrate.


  • #43
    petethedrummer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,604 ✭✭✭petethedrummer


    ror_74 wrote: »
    Pete, if I may weigh in with some support for what you are saying,

    Anyone can weigh in, as long as you are on my side. :pac:


  • #44
    Inquitus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,762 ✭✭✭✭Inquitus


    petethedrummer wrote: »
    Anyone can weigh in, as long as you are on my side. :pac:

    I remember you saying something about not being able to cycle past about 80km on the evil 200, clearly this diet is not Jens Voigt approved!


  • #45
    j@utis
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,065 ✭✭✭j@utis


    I just read this and it made me laugh: “Where do you get your energy from?”.
    The best bit: : “Fat is the body’s preferred and most reliable form of energy, which is why we store excess energy as fat on our bodies. Unless you think we accumulate body fat just to make pants fit tighter.” LOL :D:D


  • #46
    niceonetom
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,833 ✭✭✭niceonetom


    j@utis wrote: »
    I just read this and it made me laugh: “Where do you get your energy from?”.
    The best bit: : “Fat is the body’s preferred and most reliable form of energy, which is why we store excess energy as fat on our bodies. Unless you think we accumulate body fat just to make pants fit tighter.” LOL :D:D

    The "Where do you get your energy from?" question is legitimate and I wouldn't be entirely satisfied with his answer.

    Fuelling from fat seems perfectly possible for events that are either short enough to be fuelled straight from glycogen (explosive sports and aerobic activities below, say, 60 minute duration, everything from crossfit to a 40km TT) or so long that the rate of calorie usage is low enough to come from fat burning - IM, ultrarunning, other self-paced endurance efforts.

    What I don't understand, and haven't seen many examples of, is people using fat as a primary fuel source for events that fall between these two - a 2 or 3 hour road race for instance which requires the ability to ride way above fat burning exertion for significant portions of time. The glycogen you start with will not be enough to fuel the total effort and fat, even from a well trained fat burning metabolism, cannot supply the energy fast enough to sustain the intensity.

    So, is being paleo something a racing cyclist can only do between races? For me it seems so.


  • #47
    petethedrummer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,604 ✭✭✭petethedrummer


    Today's video:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vr-c8GeT34


  • #48
    AstraMonti
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,718 ✭✭✭AstraMonti


    Give us an example of a weeks worth menu.


  • #49
    petethedrummer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,604 ✭✭✭petethedrummer


    AstraMonti wrote: »
    Give us an example of a weeks worth menu.
    Sorry, I'm not advising anyone on what to eat. There are books for that.


  • #50
    AstraMonti
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,718 ✭✭✭AstraMonti


    I am just interested of what you eat in a week.


  • #51
    enas
    Registered Users Posts: 585 ✭✭✭enas


    petethedrummer wrote: »
    Sorry, I'm not advising anyone on what to eat. There are books for that.

    Still, I would be interested. Not as an advice on what to eat, I'm quite confident I don't want to follow that diet, but still I'm quite interested in your experience. Like others I guess, I do find this diet very restrictive, so I'd be interested in knowing about a typical week of your new diet. But I understand it's a rather tedious exercise.


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