Should we protest against the pope's visit?

Leroy42 · 10-04-2018 2:24pm

Calhoun wrote: »

Quite interesting to see peoples stances on religion, saw something on twitter yesterday where a guy was calling a bunch of people who were protesting the opening of a mosque in Kilkenny racist.

Then compare the reaction to protesting of the Scientology centre in Dublin or this thread. While i do understand that the Irish have been victimized more from the catholic religion i am just wondering why we don't hold all religions to the same standards.

Its about critical mass. Far more people know of and are affected by Catholic faith. The visit of a muslim cleric would unlikely bring about such a state undertaking. It certainly would not involve Croke Park and the Phoenix Park.

The lack of interest in those faiths shows the level of interest, both positive and negative. They are too small to impact on everyday life and as such people are happy enough to let people get on with it.

The Catholic church is very different. Until relatively recently it held a massive sway in the country. From the local priest, to controlling schools. We have only this year got rid of the ban on good friday drinking.

So I don't think it a case of not being against the other religions, but rather what will most people understand and how best to target the mindset.

Graces7 · 10-04-2018 2:31pm

Rivka Flat Handgun wrote: »

Will you also protest at the governments and civil authorities collusion in self same child abuse cases?

You beat me to it. These also are internal Irish matters.

The Pope is a very brave man to come at all.

Graces7 · 10-04-2018 2:32pm

Leroy42 wrote: »

Its about critical mass. Far more people know of and are affected by Catholic faith. The visit of a muslim cleric would unlikely bring about such a state undertaking. It certainly would not involve Croke Park and the Phoenix Park.

The lack of interest in those faiths shows the level of interest, both positive and negative. They are too small to impact on everyday life and as such people are happy enough to let people get on with it.

The Catholic church is very different. Until relatively recently it held a massive sway in the country. From the local priest, to controlling schools. We have only this year got rid of the ban on good friday drinking.

So I don't think it a case of not being against the other religions, but rather what will most people understand and how best to target the mindset.

So much for tolerance

Graces7 · 10-04-2018 2:33pm

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

That's a failing of the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform (or whetever it's called) though; not the Catholic Church

scapegoat time again. Wonder if folk know the real meaning of that phrase?

wakka12 · 10-04-2018 2:36pm

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

This is an odd thread really given the usual tone of Catholic Church threads.

It seems to me that most here seem to reckon their virtue-signalling of "tolerance" is of more importance than the actual subject involved - the visit of the designated head of an organisation which has been responsible for decades of abuse, misery and social stagnation in this country and which even now - 25 years after that started to finally loosen - still has lingering effects on things like Education, and the outstanding answers and justice for many of its victims.

I wasn't raised a Catholic - or with any faith (my mother had a "none of the above until they're old enough to decide for themselves" attitude to it all), and while I don't really care either way if he comes as I won't be going or listening to him, it's funny that so many here seem to be against the idea of a peaceful protest by those who may have a legitimate cause for one.. just because it might "look bad" in the era of Twitter and 24/7 news.

Let's turn it on its head.. I was walking down the street with my 6 year old the other day and we passed a truck parked up with a big anti-abortion poster on the side showing an "angry baby". Luckily he's too young to realise the significance, but is that acceptable really?

The church has basically no power and posters like the ones you described are widely mocked by most of society. If were protesting against catholic church then we should also protest against islamic and jewish religions in ireland too,which also caused great misery for millions of its followers too, but we wont, as its not necessary, and would be looked down upon in the case of latter two religions at least

garbo speaks · 10-04-2018 2:36pm

Calhoun wrote: »

Quite interesting to see peoples stances on religion, saw something on twitter yesterday where a guy was calling a bunch of people who were protesting the opening of a mosque in Kilkenny racist.

Then compare the reaction to protesting of the Scientology centre in Dublin or this thread. While i do understand that the Irish have been victimized more from the catholic religion i am just wondering why we don't hold all religions to the same standards.

In all fairness, I think if a mosque were to open near anyone's home, you would have the right to be very concerned.

Graces7 · 10-04-2018 2:38pm

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

This is an odd thread really given the usual tone of Catholic Church threads.
It seems to me that most here seem to reckon their virtue-signalling of "tolerance" is of more importance than the actual subject involved - the visit of the designated head of an organisation which has been responsible for decades of abuse, misery and social stagnation in this country and which even now - 25 years after that started to finally loosen - still has lingering effects on things like Education, and the outstanding answers and justice for many of its victims.

Maybe we seek peace now from all of this?

I wasn't raised a Catholic - or with any faith (my mother had a "none of the above until they're old enough to decide for themselves" attitude to it all), and while I don't really care either way if he comes as I won't be going or listening to him, it's funny that so many here seem to be against the idea of a peaceful
protest by those who may have a legitimate cause for one.. just because it might "look bad" in the era of Twitter and 24/7 news.

Let's turn it on its head.. I was walking down the street with my 6 year old the other day and we passed a truck parked up with a big anti-abortion poster on the side showing an "angry baby". Luckily he's too young to realise the significance, but is that acceptable really?

Save the 8th is not a Catholic group/ And yes it is acceptable

Graces7 · 10-04-2018 2:40pm

Leroy42 wrote: »

Or maybe they are using the upcoming visit of the head of the church to coordinate a protest around a particular event.

It is far easier to get people interested when the event is already widely known about rather than picking a random Thursday in October or whatever. And just because people may not have protested before, does not diminish the point they are trying to make.

The 1st question that the pope should be asked is why, in the #metoo era and when companies in the UK are now required to file gender pay gap reports, does the Catholic church still exercise sexism in terms of it hiring policies?

That we, as a country, should be welcoming such a standard bearer of sexism is a shame.

So much then for real tolerance? Tradition is not sexism .

Calhoun · 10-04-2018 2:43pm

Leroy42 wrote: »

Its about critical mass. Far more people know of and are affected by Catholic faith. The visit of a muslim cleric would unlikely bring about such a state undertaking. It certainly would not involve Croke Park and the Phoenix Park.

The lack of interest in those faiths shows the level of interest, both positive and negative. They are too small to impact on everyday life and as such people are happy enough to let people get on with it.

The Catholic church is very different. Until relatively recently it held a massive sway in the country. From the local priest, to controlling schools. We have only this year got rid of the ban on good friday drinking.

So I don't think it a case of not being against the other religions, but rather what will most people understand and how best to target the mindset.

Well lets put aside the catholic religion, look at the fury and push back on Scientology versus Islam as a religion. Don't get me wrong Islam gets criticism as well but those criticizing it get flagged as racists.

Leroy42 · 10-04-2018 2:56pm

Graces7 wrote: »

So much for tolerance

You seem to be confusing tolerance with subservience. Catholics are very much tolerated, as are most religions in Ireland. That doesn't mean that one shouldn't look to question and try to influence those that follow it.

Graces7 wrote: »

So much then for real tolerance? Tradition is not sexism .

So should slavery have been left as it was. Slavery was a long held tradition in the US? What about FGM, should that simply be left unquestioned because it has been undertaken for so many years? The length of time of something does not indicate its virtuousness.

Sexism is sexism, it is simply hidden behind a veil of tradition and belief. Doesn't change the fact that the gender you dictates whether you will ever be accepted into the priesthood.

Leroy42 · 10-04-2018 2:59pm

Calhoun wrote: »

Well lets put aside the catholic religion, look at the fury and push back on Scientology versus Islam as a religion. Don't get me wrong Islam gets criticism as well but those criticizing it get flagged as racists.

I think the more traditional religions are protected by their very history and tradition. They go back many generations are as afforded a certain respect because of that.

Scientology is a very recent addition and is seen my many as a scam. It is strange that were any of the other religions to start now I would think that they would be treated in much the same way.

ohnonotgmail · 10-04-2018 3:04pm

garbo speaks wrote: »

In all fairness, I think if a mosque were to open near anyone's home, you would have the right to be very concerned.

i have one quite close to me. I have no concerns at all.

Graces7 · 10-04-2018 3:06pm

Leroy42 wrote: »

You seem to be confusing tolerance with subservience. Catholics are very much tolerated, as are most religions in Ireland. That doesn't mean that one shouldn't look to question and try to influence those that follow it.

So should slavery have been left as it was. Slavery was a long held tradition in the US? What about FGM, should that simply be left unquestioned because it has been undertaken for so many years? The length of time of something does not indicate its virtuousness.

Sexism is sexism, it is simply hidden behind a veil of tradition and belief. Doesn't change the fact that the gender you dictates whether you will ever be accepted into the priesthood.

Oh dear! You need to learn what this is really about, Not sexism. Ah well... we understand and that is what matters after all, not how the outsiders see it.

Leroy42 · 10-04-2018 3:10pm

Graces7 wrote: »

Oh dear! You need to learn what this is really about, Not sexism. Ah well... we understand and that is what matters after all, not how the outsiders see it.

So what is it all about.

I am a woman, can I be a priest.
No
Why not?
You are a woman!
But, thats sexist and we cannot discriminate jobs in this country based on gender.
Ah, buts its tradition and says so in this book.
Where does it say it in the book?
Never you mind, as a woman you can't be expected to understand that book

You don't think that is sexist?

munchkin_utd · 10-04-2018 3:21pm

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

i have one quite close to me. I have no concerns at all.

I'd be more worried if I had a synagogue near me, that some looper would try and bomb it or whatever.

The way the OP was talking, I wouldnt want to live near a church either just in case they lost the plot and tried something out nearby !

baylah17 · 10-04-2018 3:27pm

garbo speaks wrote: »

Calhoun wrote: »

Quite interesting to see peoples stances on religion, saw something on twitter yesterday where a guy was calling a bunch of people who were protesting the opening of a mosque in Kilkenny racist.

Then compare the reaction to protesting of the Scientology centre in Dublin or this thread. While i do understand that the Irish have been victimized more from the catholic religion i am just wondering why we don't hold all religions to the same standards.

In all fairness, I think if a mosque were to open near anyone's home, you would have the right to be very concerned.

Why?

knipex · 10-04-2018 3:30pm

work wrote: »

I believe a huge protest against the popes visit is required to show the government and church they are no longer welcome or wanted in our society. What do you think? There are many stakeholders that should protest their removal from any influence in our society. Some that come to mind are:
1) Anyone not supportive of misogyny
2) Anyone that doesn't believe in school indoctrination of children in a massive lie.
3) Anyone concerned about abusers in positions allowing abuse
4) Anyone with the most basic scientific education.
5) Anyone that doesn't support cults
6) Anyone that believes LGBT people should be treated fairly in society.
7) Anyone that believes women should have ANY control of their bodies.
8) Anyone that is not seen as equal in the church namely women children and men.

There are many other areas but I realised I have covered everyone. As such let's all go to the Phoenix park to let the Vatican know they are not welcome.
Are there any peaceful groups planning to protest?

Ahhh go away..

Just what need,, another bloody protest that achieves nothing except give the usual suspects a chance to appear on a stage or grab a megaphone..

We must have a hard core group of professional protesters at this stage..

You would achieve a much better result with wider ranging implications nationally and internationally if you just convinced everyone to stay away..

Imagine, all that pomp, all that ceremony, all the media and no-one shows...

Or those that consider themselves catholic and who want to show up and see \ meet the leader of their religion can do so without without bothering you or you bothering them.. no major headlines or news footage of the usual twats shouting into megaphones..

Leroy42 · 10-04-2018 3:40pm

knipex wrote: »

Ahhh go away..

Just what need,, another bloody protest that achieves nothing except give the usual suspects a chance to appear on a stage or grab a megaphone..

We must have a hard core group of professional protesters at this stage..

You would achieve a much better result with wider ranging implications nationally and internationally if you just convinced everyone to stay away..

Imagine, all that pomp, all that ceremony, all the media and no-one shows...

Or those that consider themselves catholic and who want to show up and see \ meet the leader of their religion can do so without without bothering you or you bothering them.. no major headlines or news footage of the usual twats shouting into megaphones..

You have contradicted yourself in your own post. The protestors should stay away and just let the people who want to be there show how happy they are. How do you think that will look in the media?

That's right, the pope visits Ireland and met with crowds cheering and not a dissenting voice to be heard. Its not about bothering people (although protests tend to have that side effect). It is about getting your voice heard, letting those in power know that we don't all share the one opinion.

CruelCoin · 10-04-2018 4:06pm

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

and while I don't really care either way if he comes as I won't be going or listening to him, it's funny that so many here seem to be against the idea of a peaceful protest by those who may have a legitimate cause for one.. just because it might "look bad" in the era of Twitter and 24/7 news.

It really is weird.

As though you open the "lets stuff hundreds of dead babies in a septic tank" door and then expect there not to be protests.

Forever more, there will be protests. Only a complete imbecile wouldn't understand why.

garbo speaks · 10-04-2018 4:25pm

baylah17 wrote: »

Why?

Take a wild guess, Sherlock.

Calhoun · 10-04-2018 4:28pm

Leroy42 wrote: »

I think the more traditional religions are protected by their very history and tradition. They go back many generations are as afforded a certain respect because of that.

Scientology is a very recent addition and is seen my many as a scam. It is strange that were any of the other religions to start now I would think that they would be treated in much the same way.

Makes allot of sense, i think its something we should question. History and tradition should not mean that a religion is excluded from criticism, a certain degree of tolerance should be afforded for all or none.

I can be certain of one thing putting religion on a pedestal is a recipe for sleep walking into a more religiously indoctrinated Ireland.

pawdee · 10-04-2018 4:36pm

Really excited about this. I missed John Paul II's visit in '79 as I was in hospital. Who's supporting him on this tour? Judas Priest? Kreator? Exodus? Lamb of God? Sodom? Cathedral? Nazareth? Anyone know?

Will I Am Not · 10-04-2018 4:37pm

Do people have to protest everything these days?
Don’t like it? Don’t go. Annoying people that do want to go is just being a dick.

Leroy42 · 10-04-2018 4:50pm

Will I Am Not wrote: »

Do people have to protest everything these days?
Don’t like it? Don’t go. Annoying people that do want to go is just being a dick.

Do we have to put up with people having their preferred people come over? If you like him, head over to Rome.
Annoying people by closing roads, using garda and ancilliary services, spending all that money that could go towards the homeless or special needs.

You are completely missing the point. The man represents an organisation, an organisation that many people feel has done incredible harm and continues to actively discriminate against women.

Even recently it stated that its own laws have precedence over Irish law (reporting child abuse) and continues to look for handouts from the Irish state in terms of tax free status etc.

work · 10-04-2018 5:03pm

Will I Am Not wrote: »

Do people have to protest everything these days?
Don’t like it? Don’t go. Annoying people that do want to go is just being a dick.

Protest everything? You miss the point I think? The head of the catholic church coming to Ireland is very significant and because of their disgraceful behavior some form of protest is probably merited.
Any protest should be visible and PEACEFUL. If this annoys people that want to go they do not understand tolerance and the right to a peaceful protest.
Not protesting is the same as supporting this!

knipex · 10-04-2018 5:10pm

Leroy42 wrote: »

You have contradicted yourself in your own post. The protestors should stay away and just let the people who want to be there show how happy they are. How do you think that will look in the media?

That's right, the pope visits Ireland and met with crowds cheering and not a dissenting voice to be heard. Its not about bothering people (although protests tend to have that side effect). It is about getting your voice heard, letting those in power know that we don't all share the one opinion.

Its about making noise and an opportunity to

a) to feel good about yourself and you look down on all those religious nutjobs
b) Pontificate about how you are so superior.
c) Show how your more important than people who believe differently
d) just piss people off.
e) Draw media attention to an event you are not in favour of.
f) Achieve absolutely nothing to benefit yourself.

Irish society has changed dramatically and is continuing to change. None gives a fiddlers about your religion or lack there of except you..

work · 10-04-2018 5:10pm

knipex wrote: »

Ahhh go away..

Just what need,, another bloody protest that achieves nothing except give the usual suspects a chance to appear on a stage or grab a megaphone..

We must have a hard core group of professional protesters at this stage..

You would achieve a much better result with wider ranging implications nationally and internationally if you just convinced everyone to stay away..

Imagine, all that pomp, all that ceremony, all the media and no-one shows...

Or those that consider themselves catholic and who want to show up and see \ meet the leader of their religion can do so without without bothering you or you bothering them.. no major headlines or news footage of the usual twats shouting into megaphones..

What I think it could achieve is the political push to remove the choke-hold and damaging control they have over schooling. This is happening but too slowly and I do not want to see it any longer especially for my kids.
People will attend it so it is a complete waste of time to try and keep people away. The catholic church has support as people were indoctrinated from a young age into it and in their society....
I absolutely agree that the usual headbangers that like to protest will be there but what can we do? Perhaps if the good ordinary people that realise the churches hold is wrong were to take a stand then something could be achieved. Political parties will implement policies that get them elected so we should show them this matters.

work · 10-04-2018 5:17pm

knipex wrote: »

Its about making noise and an opportunity to

a) to feel good about yourself and you look down on all those religious nutjobs
b) Pontificate about how you are so superior.
c) Show how your more important than people who believe differently
d) just piss people off.
e) Draw media attention to an event you are not in favour of.
f) Achieve absolutely nothing to benefit yourself.

Irish society has changed dramatically and is continuing to change. None gives a fiddlers about your religion or lack there of except you..

Interesting and misguided reply:
a) to feel good about yourself and you look down on all those religious nutjobs....Why would you look down on anyone
b) Pontificate about how you are so superior.....Why would anyone think they are superior?
c) Show how your more important than people who believe differently....Why would anyone think they are superior to someone that thinks differently, do you mean those of us that cannot go to heaven because we are not in the club
d) just piss people off.??? Peaceful protest
e) Draw media attention to an event you are not in favour of......THIS IS A GOOD IDEA
f) Achieve absolutely nothing to benefit yourself......POSSIBLY ALTER THE HOLD THE CHURCH HAS ON OUR SCHOOLS

knipex · 10-04-2018 5:18pm

work wrote: »

What I think it could achieve is the political push to remove the choke-hold and damaging control they have over schooling. This is happening but too slowly and I do not want to see it any longer especially for my kids.
People will attend it so it is a complete waste of time to try and keep people away. The catholic church has support as people were indoctrinated from a young age into it and in their society....
I absolutely agree that the usual headbangers that like to protest will be there but what can we do? Perhaps if the good ordinary people that realise the churches hold is wrong were to take a stand then something could be achieved. Political parties will implement policies that get them elected so we should show them this matters.

Sweet baby jeebus and his holy mother.

I went to school in the late 70's and was "indoctorined" to a far far greater extent than any child today.

My kids go to a local church of Ireland school.
I haven't set foot in a church except for a wedding or a funeral in over 20 years..
My kids were baptised, mainly because their mother wanted them to be but we stopped there. When they are older they can make their own choices.

They do religion at school and ask lots of questions about it, we answer them, explain about other religions but christian denominations and non christian faiths. When they are older they can decide for themselves what to believe.

Kids are kids, the days of this country being run by the church are long gone. My generation and the generation before that did a lot to end that but we didn't make a huge noise about it. We just got on with our lives without the need to be seen to protest.

Do something that will actually make a difference instead of making noise..

work wrote: »

d) just piss people off.??? Peaceful protest

Thats just funny.....

10-04-2018 5:18pm

Down with that sort of thing. No way. We won’t pay. What do we want? A protest. When do we want it? Now.

Should we protest against the pope's visit?

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