AC vs DC for charging without private parking

liamog wrote: »

I've addressed your point multiple times about why there are currently more examples of AC deployments than DC. I'm not sure why you keep ignoring it.

No, you didn't.

This has nothing to do with Irish deployments, 50kW DC is being rolled out in multiple places across Europe to address charging requirements in locations where people spend between 30 minutes and one hour. You asked for an example in a mature EV market, and I found you some.

DC is being deployed across Europe almost exclusively on motorway routes, because that's what's critical and what's required. Unlike in the most developed EV markets (NO, SV, NL, AT) which already do have this in place, so they just deploy UFC/HPC DC instead.

Nowhere is DC being deployed in cities en masse, simply nowhere, not even in NL or NO. Whereas AC is being deployed all the time.

Why do you think IE will develop differently? DC hubs in cities will be a cherry on top at best. It's entirely predictable, because it has happened elsewhere. You'll see focus on motorway/petrol station DC/UFC and massive expansion of AC.

Look at goingelectric.de and see the breakdown of chargers DC vs AC in all markets - the numbers are quite clear.

liamog wrote: »

Ok, I'll repeat it, because you appear to have missed the point



I further elaborated the point, when I equated a 22kW AC charger for the original Zoe with it's 22kWh battery, and pointed out that a 50kW DC charger is in fact exactly the same concept, merely mapped to the larger battery sizes.



I already provided a Norwegian example, here's an example from The Netherlands https://www.plugshare.com/location/220420.
Not a perfect example, as it's at a fuel station rather than a shopping area like this one https://www.plugshare.com/location/116548

The only person who's pushing the narrative that this is an exclusively Irish solution is yourself, so again I ask you why do you believe Ireland should be an exception and only deploy AC chargers at non motorway sites?

That Fastned Charger is a link for the N200

It's an industrial estate.

Even if you did provide a good example the Netherlands and Norway already have an extensive on and off street charging network deployed (Mostly AC and not including home charging in Norway of course)

Also don't forget the Norwegians are loaded

I'll ask you a question:

Small Dutch City- Bergen of Zoom, Population 67000


around 100 cars can be charged at the same time and the chargers are used 24x7 (with little to no maintence I might add)

Now we look at Galway, Population 80000


Explain to me how you would deploy a charging hub servicing 100 cars that operates 24x7 and doesn't require the driver to wait for their car to charge for the same money.

liamog wrote: »

Why does the hub need to operate 24/7 and have the same up front cost. You've alluded to having project management experience. If I'm a charging operator, I should be looking at return on investment, not minimal investment costs.

100 AC chargers that charge at 11kW, is functionally equivalent to 20 DC chargers that charge at 50kW. Instead of each car needing 5 hours to onboard 50kWh, they can do so in 60 mins. This aligns with the average trip to a supermarket.

I seem to remember you can't leave your car at a supermarket charger because your wife regularly decides to spontaneously go clothes shopping whilst presumably physically restraining you from returning to your vehicle to move it.
Most people will not have this problem, and will either be finished, or be able to quickly reposition their vehicle if their plans change.

The only people on this thread arguing for no AC at all, are the two using as a counter argument to there should be DC chargers at supermarket locations, why do you see it as a zero sum game?

Well my missus doesn't have anything to do with it really

But lets do the numbers shall we ?

Your Charging hub by your own admission would be used when people do other things (such as shopping) and the peak period would be after work (so probably between 18:00 and 22:00) i.e. queue.

So the rest of the time nobody has any reason to be there and you'll have a quiet period from 9am - 12pm and 2pm - 5pm with Lunchtime (but we'll leave that out as well)

Assuming all charging stations were being utilised at a full 50kW and cars lined up one after another (100% utilisation) I'll be generous and we'll say they can be used for 14 hours a day.

Now you can extend this 14 hour period if you like but then that would mean people are going there just to sit in the car and charge, since they cannot leave the car overnight.

DC Charging Hub
50x20 = 1000kW * 14 (hours) = Potential 14000kWh

AC Charging Points distributed all over the area:
100x11= 1100kW * 24 (hours) = Potential 26400 kWh

The AC Points can be used whenever anyone stops someplace they need to be and also be used to charge overnight if needs be.

Also the AC points need hardly any maintenence, the end user also brings their own cable to plug in so thats one less thing to go wrong.

liamog wrote: »

Well here's how I worked it out in Excel.

60% utilisation for an AC11 charger, 30% utilisation for a DC50 charger
€4,000 for the AC, €25,000 for the DC. Annual maintenance, 5% for AC, 10% for DC. Operating time 5 years.
We install 91 2x11kW AC chargers, up front cost €364,000 (financed €411,418.66). Annual maintenance over 5 years €91,000. Total cost over 5 years €502,418.
We install 40 1x50kW DC chargers, up front cost €1,000,000 (financed €1,130,271.05). Annual maintenance over 5 years €500,000. Total cost over 5 years, €1,630,271.
The upfront costs are financed at 5%, maintenance is paid from operating income.

kWh dispensed over the 5 years equals (power * hours in day * days in year * years / utilisation factor)
AC = 52,612,560 kWh.
DC = 26,280,000 kWh.

Operating cost per kWh for each option, is (5 year cost / kWh dispensed)
AC = 0.0095 c/kWh
DC = 0.0620 c/kWh

In terms of ROI, there just isn't that much between the two. If you can charge your customer's an extra 8c/kWh, for DC chargers in a district, then you can make more money than by providing AC chargers.

I've sold about half the electricity for the investment in DC, but made the same ROI. Giving me scope to roll out a second site.

So you favor having 40x50kW charging points that will only really be used during working hours.

vs 182 Charging points (91 Chargers) which are available 24x7 :pac:

You haven't answered my question:
"Explain to me how you would deploy a charging hub servicing 100 cars that operates 24x7 and doesn't require the driver to wait for their car to charge for the same money."

If you can't answer that I'm out :pac:

liamog wrote: »

Well here's how I worked it out in Excel.

60% utilisation for an AC11 charger, 30% utilisation for a DC50 charger
€4,000 for the AC, €25,000 for the DC. Annual maintenance, 5% for AC, 10% for DC. Operating time 5 years.
We install 91 2x11kW AC chargers, up front cost €364,000 (financed €411,418.66). Annual maintenance over 5 years €91,000. Total cost over 5 years €502,418.
We install 40 1x50kW DC chargers, up front cost €1,000,000 (financed €1,130,271.05). Annual maintenance over 5 years €500,000. Total cost over 5 years, €1,630,271.
The upfront costs are financed at 5%, maintenance is paid from operating income.

kWh dispensed over the 5 years equals (power * hours in day * days in year * years / utilisation factor)
AC = 52,612,560 kWh.
DC = 26,280,000 kWh.

Operating cost per kWh for each option, is (5 year cost / kWh dispensed)
AC = 0.0095 c/kWh
DC = 0.0620 c/kWh

In terms of ROI, there just isn't that much between the two. If you can charge your customer's an extra 8c/kWh, for DC chargers in a district, then you can make more money than by providing AC chargers.

I've sold about half the electricity for the investment in DC, but made the same ROI. Giving me scope to roll out a second site.

The figures are quite sound. Would expect lower occupancy for DC, perhaps 20% and probably higher maintenance. And higher upfront costs.

You should start your own DC charging network then! Maybe you ask the EasyGo fella why it doesn't really work like that in reality. Something must be missing from the equation :cool:

liamog wrote: »

we need around 430 EVs in the immediate area to make the DC charger viable.

Do you mean those 430 EV owners are charging 90% at home then?
If so & hypothetically, if each had a 58.8kWh battery, each would charge publically, on a DC charger, just once every 10 weeks (5.88kWh weekly).

It's certainly not a get rich quick scheme for a private provider - I'm beginning to think we're lucky we have ECars :pac:.

Has anyone done any research into how much the DC chargers cost to install?

All I could find was a paper from the US:
https://theicct.org/sites/default/files/publications/ICCT_EV_Charging_Cost_20190813.pdf

They're estimating ~$28k for 50kW and $75k for 150kW

I'm trying to figure out the payback period for a DC charger and so far it's looking like this

Charger cost + installation: €25,000 (just guessing from that link above)
Charging cost per kWh: €0.33/kWh
Cost of electricity: €0.13/kWh (cheapest prices on bonkers are €0.14, I'm assuming the ESB can get power cheaper)
Profit: €0.20/kWh

Payback sales required: 125,000kWh (€25,000 / €0.20/kwh)
Payback period: 2500 hours (assuming 100% usage) = 104 days

There's several problems with my maths though

1. Chargers probably cost quite a bit more
2. The cost of electricity probably varies a lot since those high power connections are charged by rate of usage
3. Usage isn't even close to 100%, probably closer to 10%

Plugging in something more realistic

Charger cost + installation: €30,000
Charging cost per kWh: €0.33/kWh
Cost of electricity: €0.18/kWh
Profit: €0.15/kWh

Payback sales required: 200,000kWh (€30,000 / €0.15/kwh)
Payback period: 20000 hours (assuming 10% usage) = 833 days = just over 2 years

I guess I'm trying to figure out if utility companies are likely to make a profit off fast charging (without government support). It seems very heavily coupled to usage, so I guess we're always going to be in a situation where we don't have enough chargers


Just for a laugh, what if a service station provided chargers and every person charging bought a coffee, lets see what happens then

Charger cost + installation: €30,000
Charging cost per kWh: €0.33/kWh
Cost of electricity: €0.18/kWh
Average charging session: 30 mins @ 50kW = 25kWh
Profit per cup of coffee: €2 (total guesswork on my part)
Profit per session: (€0.15/kWh * 25kWh) + €2 = €5.75

Payback sessions required: 5217
Payback period @ 5 sessions per day: 1043 days = 2.85 years
Payback period @ 10 sessions per day: 521 = 1.4 years

Looks like the argument for service stations using chargers to entice customers isn't too bad

liamog wrote: »

I pulled your post into this thread, there was some detailed discussion on this a few pages ago

Thanks, with so many charging threads it's hard to know where to go sometimes

cruisey1987 wrote: »

Has anyone done any research into how much the DC chargers cost to install?

All I could find was a paper from the US:
https://theicct.org/sites/default/files/publications/ICCT_EV_Charging_Cost_20190813.pdf

...

Just for a laugh, what if a service station provided chargers and every person charging bought a coffee, lets see what happens then

Charger cost + installation: €30,000
Charging cost per kWh: €0.33/kWh
Cost of electricity: €0.18/kWh
Average charging session: 30 mins @ 50kW = 25kWh
Profit per cup of coffee: €2 (total guesswork on my part)
Profit per session: (€0.15/kWh * 25kWh) + €2 = €5.75

Payback sessions required: 5217
Payback period @ 5 sessions per day: 1043 days = 2.85 years
Payback period @ 10 sessions per day: 521 = 1.4 years

Looks like the argument for service stations using chargers to entice customers isn't too bad

Quite nice article. I speed read it but I need more time to analyze it as is packed with data.

While you calculations are a bit crude I don't think you're far away. You probably have a higher cost for electricity but you don't count for support etc. Another thing to mention is that these chargers qualify for ACA which essentially reduces your tax bill.

Now consider the supermarket scenario.

My weekly grocery bill is 150 -200. (probably more now as it includes the booze). If DS installs a charger and steals me from Tesco that is a €10k a year business assured. (and 10k less for the competition which probably counts more). So whatever money they do charging me for electricity can easily go towards charger costs. That is only from one family. And while is nothing now when there are only 10k EVs on the street in few years time when 20% of the cars would be EVs this will actually count. To run a petrol station now you need license and lots. To have a charger installed in your car park you don't need even planning permission (with some limitations)

Another scenario. A medium sized local shop. Corner shops are crying that are pushed towards extinction by the big ones. This is one way to be relevant. If you can make me get there I will probably carve 50 quid from my weekly booze stipend to spend there.

Few weeks ago when the debate AC/DC was heated I looked on plugshare at Amsterdam to see what others are doing. While it is true there are a lot of AC points, there are a lot of DC ones. After 8 I gave up counting McDonalds chargers, lots of hotels but the best one for me was this. https://www.plugshare.com/location/129851 (check pictures). I would probably get all my meetings in there charging or not.

McGiver wrote: »

Yes and that's why petrol stations in many countries from Norway, through Austria to Czechia jumped on the wagon. Also it's a business that's only going to scale up with time. It's an investment.

For other operators (not petrol station related), banks of AC in cities are a better business opportunity. Else DC at selected motorway spots but they are mostly taken.

I think it's related to dwell time, or at least it should be. It's nice that supermarkets are installing 22kW, but the reality is that most EVs can't take 22kW charging.


A typical weekly shop is probably 1 hours from parking to driving away. In that time you'll probably only gain 7kWh or 11kWh depending on charging speed. Even a Zoe will only gain 22kWh, which is less than 50% SoC for a ZE50


A 50kW DC charger would be more useful in this case as you can recover a lot of your battery charge in that time. The infrastructure for 2x50kW chargers is basically the same as 4x22kW chargers, so the main difference is the cost of the charger itself. You could even install those dual outlet chargers which can share the 50kW load, so you'd still have 4 cars charging in parallel

cruisey1987 wrote: »

I think it's related to dwell time, or at least it should be. It's nice that supermarkets are installing 22kW, but the reality is that most EVs can't take 22kW charging.


A typical weekly shop is probably 1 hours from parking to driving away. In that time you'll probably only gain 7kWh or 11kWh depending on charging speed. Even a Zoe will only gain 22kWh, which is less than 50% SoC for a ZE50


A 50kW DC charger would be more useful in this case as you can recover a lot of your battery charge in that time. The infrastructure for 2x50kW chargers is basically the same as 4x22kW chargers, so the main difference is the cost of the charger itself. You could even install those dual outlet chargers which can share the 50kW load, so you'd still have 4 cars charging in parallel

That's like 50-60km of added range in an hour, add up all the time your vehicle is parked and that's way more than most people actually drive.

You don't need to charge up completely in one sitting if you have easy access to chargers.

Wide availability of charging means you don't have to wait for a charger and you don't have to wait for your vehicle to charge.

I drove just over 3400 km in the last month, the only times i've had to wait while charging was while using DC Fast Charging, rest of the kWh (80%) was loaded while I was doing other things (shopping/swimming/hiking/working/sleeping/watching TV)

Lots and lots of Charging points all over place (not centralised) means you are never waiting to use one and the location you are going to has a charging option nearby.

I'll even take a 13 amp plug socket if it's going

cruisey1987 wrote: »

It'd be great to see local councils and retail groups get together to install some charging in town centres, which is where most of those struggling businesses would be located. If they could carve out a lot for a few DC and AC chargers then you have a charging hub which would pull in a few customers for local businesses.


You could even do a 'locals' deal where residents could get an hour of free parking while charging or a discount on the charging rate or something

And the beauty is they they have a range of grants available. One specially designed to cater for AC chargers installation in their car parks
https://www.seai.ie/grants/electric-vehicle-grants/public-charge-point/

It's up to 10k for a dual socket charger. You would think they will stampede to get on board. One year after the grant was announced I was trying to contact my LA but I got stonewalled. But the press wrote about the thousand chargers LAs will install.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/councils-to-install-up-to-1-000-on-street-electric-car-charging-points-1.3996963

it's a 5 year funding. How many in the first year?

If we had a charging infrastructure like say Netherlands then people would buy EVs without home charge points. Saying that people who live in apartments should not buy EVs is shortsighted and unfair to those people.