AC vs DC for charging without private parking

liamog

NicolaMan wrote: »

Do you know what is cost of Tritium Veefil-RT? I had an understanding QC45 is one of cheaper DC solutions?

I've not actually been able to find a number, but given it has lower capabilities than the QC45(no AC43). It's installation is often touted as being one of the cheapest DC chargers on the market, I expect it costs less rather than more.

NicolaMan

liamog wrote: »

I've not actually been able to find a number, but given it has lower capabilities than the QC45(no AC43). It's installation is often touted as being one of the cheapest DC chargers on the market, I expect it costs less rather than more.

and QC45? Has to be below 25k as this is ABB territory?

Chargingshop.eu - has Chinese 60kW DC station below 18k, QC45 has to be somewhere in the middle?

innrain

liamog wrote: »

I've not actually been able to find a number, but given it has lower capabilities than the QC45(no AC43). It's installation is often touted as being one of the cheapest DC chargers on the market, I expect it costs less rather than more.

I was able to find a pdf with lots of prices on this website https://ogs.ny.gov/ which seems to be a procurement list. They are not necessarily the commercial EU prices although there is a MSRP column. Bottom of page 2 are Veefil and QC45. QC45 does not have AC43 as it is in the states but still more expensive. Also one can determine the maintenance costs. Maybe you should save the pdf as very likely should not be for public eyes and it will disappear. https://online.ogs.ny.gov/purchase/spg/pdfdocs/4040423035PL_ZecoSystems.pdf

liamog

Nice find innrain.

NicolaMan

innrain wrote: »

I was able to find a pdf with lots of prices on this website https://ogs.ny.gov/ which seems to be a procurement list. They are not necessarily the commercial EU prices although there is a MSRP column. Bottom of page 2 are Veefil and QC45. QC45 does not have AC43 as it is in the states but still more expensive. Also one can determine the maintenance costs. Maybe you should save the pdf as very likely should not be for public eyes and it will disappear. https://online.ogs.ny.gov/purchase/spg/pdfdocs/4040423035PL_ZecoSystems.pdf

THANK YOU FOR SHARE!!!

liamog

That pretty much confirms that the Veefil RT is the cheapest of the 50kW DC chargers, comparing just the DC only QC45 gives a price of around 80%, so I'm going to guestimate 75% of a triple head QC45 as the price.
We are now looking at an equipment cost of €22.5k (1x50 kW DC) vs €8k (4x11 kW AC). €14.5k just isn't that much investment to recover over a 5 year cycle.

What's more useful a Tesco car park with 40 11kW AC sockets, or 10 50kW DC chargers.
Long term it will probably end up being a mix of the two.

As I see it, the AC charger at a supermarket car park is good for the consumer, but I believe offers little benefit to the host site, the consumer charges their car whilst doing their shopping.
Whereas the DC charger turns it into doing your shopping whilst charging your car.

McGiver

NicolaMan wrote:

If you are business you calculate two sides - cost and projected income So while on cost side AC looks much better on projected income side - not so much... Thing is that in theory AC has to deliver 22kW per socket, when in reality you can deliver 22kW only to Tesla S/X owners with double on-board chargers. Double on-board charger is optional when you buy car. How many of these we have on road. So in reality we have: - say 10% customers with Tesla S/X who charge @22kW - say 40% customers with 2020 Kona, Ionic, Teslas etc.. who charge @11kW - say 40% customers with Leaf 2, BMW i3, 2019 Kona etc.. who charge @7kW - say 10% customers with Leaf 1 who charge @3kW due to on-board charger limitation

Good point regarding 22kW AC not being the best from the business perspective, they're wasteful, I've been telling this for a long time.

11 kW AC and/or 7.4 kW + 11 kW AC installs and/or per min or per kWh & per min fixes all that waste. Installing 22 kW AC in a market where 90+ % can draw 50% of thar power AND charging the user per kWh is a commercial suicide.

McGiver

liamog wrote:

What's more useful a Tesco car park with 40 11kW AC sockets, or 10 50kW DC chargers. Long term it will probably end up being a mix of the two.

It's more useful to us but not the owners.

No, it won't, it's unlikely. Look at Norway, Sweden, Austria, the Netherlands, the more developed EV markets. In cities, it's all AC everywhere with little bit of DC over there.

For supermarkets, DC makes no sense to the owner, you attract 40 customers vs 10 customers. For less costs, less hassle, less maintenance.

AC charger is almost maintenance free, it's a fancy socket. DC charger has a AC/DC inverter and cooling inside, it's relatively high maintenance, imagine having to maintain 10 of them, you need an electrical engineer on site if there's a fault. For AC you just need a sparkie.

Lower power DC may be a bit different, we'll see.

Now, for private operators, DC is the game of course. AC is profitable only at good spots and with the right pricing model - pure per per kWh pricing can't be profitable with 22 kW AC.

liamog

Are you not following the thread, an AC charger that requires you to charge for 5 hours is not going to attract a customer to a destination with a dwell time between 30mins and 1hour.

innrain

Speaking of wasteful
https://www.plugshare.com/location/35131
Max stay 1h for a SCP is pretty....
I first went to the brand new DCLite which doesn't work. The DCLite is intalled in a car park which charges €2 per day with the first hour free. And the SCP in a car park with max 1h stay, paid. That is in Kilkenny.

liamog

innrain wrote: »

Speaking of wasteful
https://www.plugshare.com/location/35131
Max stay 1h for a SCP is pretty....
I first went to the brand new DCLite which doesn't work. The DCLite is intalled in a car park which charges €2 per day with the first hour free. And the SCP in a car park with max 1h stay, paid. That is in Kilkenny.

I suppose you could charge after 19:00

McGiver

liamog wrote: »

Are you not following the thread, an AC charger that requires you to charge for 5 hours is not going to attract a customer to a destination with a dwell time between 30mins and 1hour.

Oh, I am.

11 kWh/hour for free is alright. 11 kW AC is the new standard. Battery size will stabilise at ~55 kWh - see all latest EU main segment EVs, they're all 50-55 kWh. 20% for free is a good incentive.

It attracted me and 5 more others today - 6x22 kW slots at a local mall, all full. i3, Ioniq, 330e, 2x Kona and Leaf 40kW.

McGiver

innrain wrote: »

Speaking of wasteful
https://www.plugshare.com/location/35131
Max stay 1h for a SCP is pretty....
I first went to the brand new DCLite which doesn't work. The DCLite is intalled in a car park which charges €2 per day with the first hour free. And the SCP in a car park with max 1h stay, paid. That is in Kilkenny.

Why is it 1 hour max stay? The local authority asking that?

liamog

McGiver wrote: »

Oh, I am.

11 kWh/hour for free is alright. 11 kW AC is the new standard. Battery size will stabilise at ~55 kWh - see all latest EU main segment EVs, they're all 50-55 kWh. 20% for free is a good incentive.

It attracted me and 5 more others today - 6x22 kW slots at a local mall, all full. i3, Ioniq, 330e, 2x Kona and Leaf 40kW.

The premise of the thread is not giving out free charging at shops. It's what a sensible way to provide chargers for people who can't charge at home.

My position is that one of the components of this, is to co-site a bank of DC chargers at a location where people spend between 30 and 60 mins (i.e. the supermarket). 11kW AC makes perfect sense for shopping centres/malls etc. But the average stay at those is usually in the 2 to 3 hour range.

redcup342

liamog wrote: »

Are you not following the thread, an AC charger that requires you to charge for 5 hours is not going to attract a customer to a destination with a dwell time between 30mins and 1hour.

It is if you are at 60% and have a 260km drive ahead of you

You don't need a full charge if you have an abundance of 11kW chargers around as you can always maintain a level of charge when you are parked.

For example yesterday in Leidschendam, Holland I wanted to visit a shopping center, checkout the Polestar 2 they had there, get some dinner and do some shopping. We stayed for 2 hours, in this time I loaded 22,16 kWh.

Then we to a friend house for a cup of tea before driving back to Dusseldorf.

Plugged in at a charger on street next to their place, loaded 3,64 kWh (45 mins topping off)

Drove back to Dusseldorf and didn't have to stop to Rapid charger although if I needed to it would only be a few kWh because I had plenty of charge to complete my journey (258km)

If all of the chargers I used yesterday were DC there would be less of them and I'd have to go to a place to charge rather than charge at the place I want to go.

If you charge your EV up to 100% all the time its not good for battery health anyway.

liamog

redcup342 wrote: »

You don't need a full charge if you have an abundance of 11kW chargers around as you can always maintain a level of charge when you are parked.

Yes, you've given examples before of how it works for you, but you can't seem to make the cognitive leap to how an alternative solution would work for other people.

redcup342 wrote: »

If you charge your EV up to 100% all the time its not good for battery health anyway.

That's largely a myth with modern BMS systems, outside of Tesla who provide a much lower battery buffer, the BMS won't allow you to get anywhere near a 100% state of charge.

innrain

Based on your example and the thread requirement (max stay less than 1 hour) only the last stop fits. 45min and 3.64 kWh.
These 45 min are representative for an average grocery shop (mentioned 47 mins) and @15.5kWh/100km they charge you 23.5 km.
For me, without home charger, that is useless because the only thing it does it's reducing my rapid charge efficiency. When I go to a rapid I want to charge as fast as possible. In fact when I reach 75% and the charging rate drops to 35kWh I leave. For this I need to be below 30%. So the only way it helps me is if I'm at >75% already. But even then I will not chose that particular grocery store just because it has 1 charger. (specially if it is free as the chances of finding it free are slim)

For the shop/charger owner @ 23c/kWh that makes less than 1 euro. I'm able to charge about 37kWh at the ESB triples in 45 mins and costs about 10 euros. That is >10x, and I will choose the shop with the DC charger.
By no means I discount the AC charges. They have a place at locations where you stay longer. Your first stop proves that. Workplaces, large shopping malls where people used to hang (not anymore), cinemas, hotels, park and ride facilities. And yes you can have a mix of them at these places. Penalized if you choose short and stay long and vice versa but at short stay locations AC makes sense only if you charge at 22kW. Hence, the argument for 25kW DC at these locations.

redcup342

liamog wrote: »

Yes, you've given examples before of how it works for you, but you can't seem to make the cognitive leap to how an alternative solution would work for other people.

I think it's easier to know what works when you have the infrastructure already there and use is regularly rather than theorising what might work when you have next to nothing.

50kW DC on the Highway I would avoid these days because it's too slow (unless I'm in an i3 or something)

liamog wrote: »

That's largely a myth with modern BMS systems, outside of Tesla who provide a much lower battery buffer, the BMS won't allow you to get anywhere near a 100% state of charge.

I was referring to unexpected long parking times, like getting sick and your EV sitting there at 100% for 2 weeks.

innrain wrote: »

Based on your example and the thread requirement (max stay less than 1 hour) only the last stop fits. 45min and 3.64 kWh.
These 45 min are representative for an average grocery shop (mentioned 47 mins) and @15.5kWh/100km they charge you 23.5 km.
For me, without home charger, that is useless because the only thing it does it's reducing my rapid charge efficiency. When I go to a rapid I want to charge as fast as possible. In fact when I reach 75% and the charging rate drops to 35kWh I leave. For this I need to be below 30%. So the only way it helps me is if I'm at >75% already. But even then I will not chose that particular grocery store just because it has 1 charger. (specially if it is free as the chances of finding it free are slim)

Only reason I plugged in for 2 hours was because I was there for 2 hours not because I needed to charge.

45 minutes parked at 3.64 kW was because I was at 95% (rate reduces significantly at that SOC) and wanted a parking space that was reserved for EVs.

For the shop/charger owner @ 23c/kWh that makes less than 1 euro. I'm able to charge about 37kWh at the ESB triples in 45 mins and costs about 10 euros. That is >10x, and I will choose the shop with the DC charger.
By no means I discount the AC charges. They have a place at locations where you stay longer. Your first stop proves that. Workplaces, large shopping malls where people used to hang (not anymore), cinemas, hotels, park and ride facilities. And yes you can have a mix of them at these places. Penalized if you choose short and stay long and vice versa but at short stay locations AC makes sense only if you charge at 22kW. Hence, the argument for 25kW DC at these locations.

AC charging at this location was free powered by Solar Panels on the complex roof.

liamog

redcup342 wrote: »

I think it's easier to know what works when you have the infrastructure already there and use is regularly rather than theorising what might work when you have next to nothing.

There are plenty of examples of where 50kW DC chargers work at supermarkets, gastropubs, fast food restaurants etc....
It's not theorising when it's being put into practice.

redcup342 wrote: »

I was referring to unexpected long parking times, like getting sick and your EV sitting there at 100% for 2 weeks.

Ok, I don't think that's going to influence my decision when choosing to charge at a DC charger whilst doing my weekly shop.

ELM327

innrain wrote: »

Based on your example and the thread requirement (max stay less than 1 hour) only the last stop fits. 45min and 3.64 kWh.
These 45 min are representative for an average grocery shop (mentioned 47 mins) and @15.5kWh/100km they charge you 23.5 km.
For me, without home charger, that is useless because the only thing it does it's reducing my rapid charge efficiency. When I go to a rapid I want to charge as fast as possible. In fact when I reach 75% and the charging rate drops to 35kWh I leave. For this I need to be below 30%. So the only way it helps me is if I'm at >75% already. But even then I will not chose that particular grocery store just because it has 1 charger. (specially if it is free as the chances of finding it free are slim)

For the shop/charger owner @ 23c/kWh that makes less than 1 euro. I'm able to charge about 37kWh at the ESB triples in 45 mins and costs about 10 euros. That is >10x, and I will choose the shop with the DC charger.
By no means I discount the AC charges. They have a place at locations where you stay longer. Your first stop proves that. Workplaces, large shopping malls where people used to hang (not anymore), cinemas, hotels, park and ride facilities. And yes you can have a mix of them at these places. Penalized if you choose short and stay long and vice versa but at short stay locations AC makes sense only if you charge at 22kW. Hence, the argument for 25kW DC at these locations.

Nail. On. Head.

McGiver

liamog wrote:

There are plenty of examples of where 50kW DC chargers work at supermarkets, gastropubs, fast food restaurants etc.... It's not theorising when it's being put into practice.

Where? How much is it put in practice compared to AC in numbers?

Look at Oslo City in Plugshare. Have a look and show me such DC hubs. I could find one or two, one at IKEA and another one communal area which had 6 DC but also 20 AC slots. Charging there is overwhelmingly AC otherwise. The ratio of AC:DC is very large.

What other examples do you need? Austria, Norway, Sweden, Netherlands - the most developed EV markets, the same pattern everywhere. If Norway doesn't invest massively in DC in the cities, do you really think Ireland will?

AC has several advantages, it's been explained to death...

liamog

DC also has lot's of advantages, namely the fact that it can fit a lot of peoples usage.
I'm not exactly sure what your point is, other than "I don't need it therefore there is no use for it"

We've largely discounted any cost advantage for AC, as meaningless over the expected life of a charger.
We also covered why it only makes sense now for DC chargers to be rolled out, when the average EV had a battery between 20 and 30kWh, 50 kW chargers are a massive over provision.
Now that EVs come with between 50kWh and 75kWh, the 50kW DC charger is functionally equivalent to a 22kW when the Zoe first came out.

This is the Sandvika Storsenter shopping center in Norway. 3.5km down the road is an IKEA with 4 50kW DC chargers.
It really took no effort at all to find a few examples.

redcup342

liamog wrote: »

DC also has lot's of advantages, namely the fact that it can fit a lot of peoples usage.
I'm not exactly sure what your point is, other than "I don't need it therefore there is no use for it"

We've largely discounted any cost advantage for AC, as meaningless over the expected life of a charger.
We also covered why it only makes sense now for DC chargers to be rolled out, when the average EV had a battery between 20 and 30kWh, 50 kW chargers are a massive over provision.
Now that EVs come with between 50kWh and 75kWh, the 50kW DC charger is functionally equivalent to a 22kW when the Zoe first came out.

This is the Sandvika Storsenter shopping center in Norway. 3.5km down the road is an IKEA with 4 50kW DC chargers.
It really took no effort at all to find a few examples.

Probably a rather bad example, those Gronnkontakt chargers are a bit pricey

For a 1 hour standing charge its 150 NOK (2.5 NOK / min)
Say 50 kW, which is 2.90 / kWh = 145 NOK

That's 28,32 EUR to charge up on DC

From the picture it doesn't surprise that it's empty, guarantee the 6 spots in the underground car park with Schucko plugs are in use though, even though they are only 3kW they are for free.

ELM327

redcup342 wrote: »

Probably a rather bad example, those Gronnkontakt chargers are expensive as hell.

For a 1 hour standing charge its 150 NOK (2.5 NOK / min)
Say 50 kW, which is 2.90 / kWh = 145 NOK

That's 28,32 EUR to charge up on DC

From the picture it doesn't surprise that it's empty, guarantee the 6 spots in the underground car park with Schucko plugs are in use though, even though they are only 3kW they are for free.

Theres a 20% discount for anyone using them on a regular basis. Bjorn said they are cheaper than other equivalent fast chargers.


And you wouldnt be there an hour anyway.

liamog

redcup342 wrote: »

Probably a rather bad example, those Gronnkontakt chargers are a bit pricey

Why, I think it was a great example considering the purpose. The example was to address the point by McGiver

"Where? How much is it put in practice compared to AC in numbers?
Look at Oslo City in Plugshare. Have a look and show me such DC hubs. "

A very quick look found an example just outside Oslo, where multiple DC chargers had been installed in a shopping centre car park.

redcup342

ELM327 wrote: »

Theres a 20% discount for anyone using them on a regular basis. Bjorn said they are cheaper than other equivalent fast chargers.


And you wouldnt be there an hour anyway.

It's cheaper when you use over 48 euros / month, still relatively expensive compared to AC charging even with the 20% discount.

liamog wrote: »

Why, I think it was a great example considering the purpose. The example was to address the point by McGiver

"Where? How much is it put in practice compared to AC in numbers?
Look at Oslo City in Plugshare. Have a look and show me such DC hubs. "

A very quick look found an example just outside Oslo, where multiple DC chargers had been installed in a shopping centre car park.

The same place has 32x11kW AC plugs in P5 and bunch of EU Schuko plugs in the underground car park.

Nobody plugs into those DC plugs and goes off shopping as there's a standing charge / min, they stay in the car.

Those are range extenders.

The destination chargers are the 11kW AC, they give 3 hours free parking

So it's a good example of both cases on one site, the DC charging is not destination charging in this case otherwise they wouldn't charge / minute along with per kW

liamog

redcup342 wrote: »

Nobody plugs into those DC plugs and goes off shopping as there's a standing charge / min, they stay in the car.

You'll probably find they do, I've plenty of experience from Blanchardstown where people would walk off for 30 mins to get a coffee, nip to Penny's etc whilst there car was "refilling".

redcup342

liamog wrote: »

You'll probably find they do, I've plenty of experience from Blanchardstown where people would walk off for 30 mins to get a coffee, nip to Penny's etc whilst there car was "refilling".

Not in Norway or France on per minute billing, a queue for the Toilet could end up costing you extra money.

They do per minute billing on DC to discourage 'nipping off to the shops' to free up the charging spots.

liamog

redcup342 wrote: »

Not in Norway or France on per minute billing, a queue for the Toilet could end up costing you extra money.

They do per minute billing on DC to discourage 'nipping off to the shops' to free up the charging spots.

I don't think there is anyway to confirm or deny the point, so not sure it adds to the discussion.
I could probably comb through Bjorn video's and find an example of a car DC charging without the user being present, but not sure there is any value in addressing such sweeping generalisations.

redcup342

liamog wrote: »

I don't think there is anyway to confirm or deny the point, so not sure it adds to the discussion.
I could probably comb through Bjorn video's and find an example of a car DC charging without the user being present, but not sure there is any value in addressing such sweeping generalisations.

https://elbil.no/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/EVS30-Charging-infrastrucure-experiences-in-Norway-paper.pdf

Payment per kWh will increase the risk of queues because the BEV owner
will not have an incentive to move the car when charging is slow. With dynamic effect distribution between
chargers, the best model will probably be to have payment with a combination of time and kWh, similar to
taxi rates with a combination of time and km.

E.G. Fortum Charge & Drive:
https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5beeb85155b02c87c213e1c6/t/5c6570eb971a187c66374a35/1550151945024/Fortum_EspenSkaar_OleGudbrannHempel_LearningsEmobilityMassMarket.pdf

Page 20 Vulcan, Oslo:

100 x flexible semi-fast charging stations (22 kW)
• 2 x rapid-charging stations
• DC: 2,50 NOK/min (24 cents / minute)
• AC: 2,00-3,00 NOK/kWh depending on effect
selected (19 cent / kWh)

Only one I can think of where people didn't move until the Car was fully charged was Ionity when they had their introductary rate of 8 euros flat.

From a providers perspective, DC is high value/margin, AC gets more customers.