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AC vs DC for charging without private parking

  • 20-08-2020 1:04pm
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 979 ✭✭✭ Thierry12


    Mod Note: Pulled out of the Ionity thread because it was pulling it off topic
    MJohnston wrote: »
    Again—you can't
    Most EV drivers will get far less than 100% of their electric at charging stations.

    The one's that don't have fancy driveway's?


«13456

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 11,217 ✭✭✭✭ KCross


    Maybe it highlights the real cost of these networks.

    There is a huge difference to have 50kW available and 350kW available. Its not just the price of the charger/cable or the kWh price of the electricity itself. Its also the price for having that grid connection "on tap" regardless of whether its used or not.

    Comparing you home electricity rate against a 350kW rapid charger and saying its a ripoff is ignoring the real costs involved in having that level of power available.

    EV drivers will need to get used to these prices and ensure they buy an EV with the appropriate battery size for them that limits their reliance on high powered rapids.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,387 ✭✭✭ redcup342


    Thierry12 wrote: »
    The one's that don't have fancy driveway's?

    Yep, build out 11kW Chargers on street for EV parking only and enforce it with towaway.

    Have a decent policy for providing them:
    E.G.
    https://www.eindhoven.nl/en/city-and-living/city/parking/charging-points-for-electric-vehicles

    Rapid Chargers are far less important for the majority of people than the availability of AC Charging where they live and can charge while they are doing other stuff.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 6,102 Mod ✭✭✭✭ liamog


    redcup342 wrote: »
    Yep, build out 11kW Chargers on street for EV parking only and enforce it with towaway.

    ...

    Rapid Chargers are far less important for the majority of people than the availability of AC Charging where they live and can charge while they are doing other stuff.

    The alternative is 50kW DC charging hubs, much cheaper to provide the electricity and 42 of them can be installed using the same grid connection as the 6 chargers provided by Ionity. Now we just need to find a site where people will spend about an hour a week that has plenty of car parking ...


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,387 ✭✭✭ redcup342


    liamog wrote: »
    The alternative is 50kW DC charging hubs, much cheaper to provide the electricity and 42 of them can be installed using the same grid connection as the 6 chargers provided by Ionity. Now we just need to find a site where people will spend about an hour a week that has plenty of car parking ...

    That sounds like petrol station mentality.

    That's not a model that works, go to Monaco 50KW DC Chargers all over the place, cars charge too quickly so people don't get back within the timeframe of whatever they are doing so there are fully charged cars sitting on chargers meaning they aren't available for other people.

    Plus they need a tethered cable so they get broken very quickly, the ones that required your own Type 2 Cable require hardly any maintenence.

    Cost difference is rather significant as well and the footprint is much larger (you don't need a big dedicated transformed for AC Chargers and can place them on city streets)


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 6,102 Mod ✭✭✭✭ liamog


    redcup342 wrote: »
    That sounds like petrol station mentality.

    That's not a model that works, go to Monaco 50KW DC Chargers all over the place, cars charge too quickly so people don't get back within the timeframe of whatever they are doing so there are fully charged cars sitting on chargers meaning they aren't available for other people.

    Can you share a study showing that the model doesn't work? From the video's I've seen of Milton Keynes and Dundee, charging hubs appear to be a quite successful solution for those who don't have the ability to charge at home.

    To tie this back to Ionity, it was only yesterday that I realised the electrical requirements for an Ionity site (6x350kW) is the equivalent of 42 50kW chargers, the extra cost is starting to make sense.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 17,948 ✭✭✭✭ ELM327


    liamog wrote: »
    Can you share a study showing that the model doesn't work? From the video's I've seen of Milton Keynes and Dundee, charging hubs appear to be a quite successful solution for those who don't have the ability to charge at home.

    To tie this back to Ionity, it was only yesterday that I realised the electrical requirements for an Ionity site (6x350kW) is the equivalent of 42 50kW chargers, the extra cost is starting to make sense.
    I think using that power for 4* 150kW and 15 50kW would be a better use.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,387 ✭✭✭ redcup342


    liamog wrote: »
    Can you share a study showing that the model doesn't work? From the video's I've seen of Milton Keynes and Dundee, charging hubs appear to be a quite successful solution for those who don't have the ability to charge at home.

    To tie this back to Ionity, it was only yesterday that I realised the electrical requirements for an Ionity site (6x350kW) is the equivalent of 42 50kW chargers, the extra cost is starting to make sense.

    Well I can give you a model that does work:
    https://www.emobilitysimplified.com/2019/12/netherlands-highest-density-ev-charging-infrastructure.html

    Netherlands is currently the Mecca for EV Charging when you don't have your parking space, or even if you rent a space in a public garage.
    There are over 49,000 regular public & semi-public AC charging points, more than 1100 fast chargers, almost 45:1 ratio.

    You can drive in the Netherlands with the aim of arriving at your destination and then charge rather than having to charge before reaching your destination because you need extra charge to get back.

    Their policy works, the proportion of BEV against PEV is way higher then any other EU Country:
    https://www.eea.europa.eu/data-and-maps/indicators/proportion-of-vehicle-fleet-meeting-4/assessment-4

    They don't have any range anxiety because they can plug in almost anywhere and charge at 6-11kW, while they shop/eat/go to work/exercise/visit family etc.

    The Cities that tried to adopt Rapid Charging stations, they i've personally experienced.

    Budapest (molplugee) - 34 Rapid Charging stations around the City Center, always busy, nobody wants to sit in their car waiting to charge and then move again to find another parking space.

    Paris Rapid Chargers (Belib) - Rapid Chargers all over the place, hardly anyone uses them as they opt for the AC (Type 3c) Chargers and just plug in whenever they stop somewhere, charging is opportunistic, there are so many on street chargers they never need to "fill"

    Monaco - People using DC and AC have the same behavior, plug in and go, they don't really care which as they will leave the car there while they go about their business anyway, DC Chargers are wasted as people sit the same amount of time on AC as DC but get the same amount of kWhs.

    ^^ All of the above the maintenance costs are much higher for the DC Charging stations than AC, Tethered cables can get cracked/broken.

    You can deploy around 10 Charging poles (20 points) for every 1 50 kW DC Rapid Charger, that means 20 cars can charge at the same time vs 20 cars having to share 1 charger.

    DC Fast charging is Great for long trips, AC is perfect for your Destination (and long trips if you are doing a break in between in a city)

    You'll never get high density with DC Charging and if charging your car required going to some sort of central hub where you have to stay with the car and then move it again, kind of defeats the whole purpose of having an EV.

    I mean most of the time I never spend any time waiting to charge as it's done when I'm at work or at home or somewhere else parked.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 6,102 Mod ✭✭✭✭ liamog


    So it's not really a model that doesn't work, you've just presented lots of examples of an alternative model.

    I don't see the future solution for people without private parking to be ubiquitous AC chargers. It only really works if every space is given an AC charger, Irish streetscapes are cramped enough without adding the further clutter of AC charging posts.
    I wouldn't want to park 1km away from my home on a tuesday night because that's where the nearest available charger is, additionally the person who lives on that street probably wants the spot outside there house for themselves.

    Charging hubs work when they are placed at the correct location, they need to be sited at places people are already used to spending between 30m and an hour. It's kind of the opposite of petrol station mentality, as it's placing the chargers where the person is anyway.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,387 ✭✭✭ redcup342


    liamog wrote: »
    So it's not really a model that doesn't work, you've just presented lots of examples of an alternative model.

    I don't see the future solution for people without private parking to be ubiquitous AC chargers. It only really works if every space is given an AC charger, Irish streetscapes are cramped enough without adding the further clutter of AC charging posts.
    I wouldn't want to park 1km away from my home on a tuesday night because that's where the nearest available charger is, additionally the person who lives on that street probably wants the spot outside there house for themselves.

    Charging hubs work when they are placed at the correct location, they need to be sited at places people are already used to spending between 30m and an hour. It's kind of the opposite of petrol station mentality, as it's placing the chargers where the person is anyway.

    Well I have pointed out where DC Charging happens in Cities and it hasn't worked out.

    In NL having a dedicated parking space for your property is very rare, even more so than Ireland.

    Aim of that policy I linked to as an example is to have a charger no more than 300 meters from your home, if it's unavailable all the time they add another one.

    For street parking, nobody is entitled to a space outside their house anyway, the exception being if they are disabled (here at least)


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 6,102 Mod ✭✭✭✭ liamog


    What type of DC chargers were installed in those cities, was it the hub style like Dundee and Milton Keynes, Paris is the only one I'm familiar with, and they were relatively useless on street DC supplies.

    As much as you don't get dedicated onstreet parking here either, what tends to happen is that you end up with reasonably the same space every day in your estate, it kind of works itself out. My wife get's annoyed if someone parks outside our house even though it's not dedicated parking. One charger within 300m of my house would cover at least 300 cars, so just isn't going to cut it as a solution.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,387 ✭✭✭ redcup342


    liamog wrote: »
    What type of DC chargers were installed in those cities, was it the hub style like Dundee and Milton Keynes, Paris is the only one I'm familiar with, and they were relatively useless on street DC supplies.

    As much as you don't get dedicated onstreet parking here either, what tends to happen is that you end up with reasonably the same space every day in your estate, it kind of works itself out. My wife get's annoyed if someone parks outside our house even though it's not dedicated parking. One charger within 300m of my house would cover at least 300 cars, so just isn't going to cut it as a solution.

    efacec QC45 Quick Chargers in Budapest and Monaco
    The Belib ones were some weird custom things I've never seen before.
    There were some QC45 Rapids run by EDF as well in Paris but very rare.

    Regarding this 1 Charger covering 300 cars ... the point is you keep installing them until demand is met in the area. You can deploy many chargers on street for a fraction of the cost of DC Chargers and people can charge their cars when their at home watching TV or sleeping rather than going to a hub and waiting around for their car to charge.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 6,102 Mod ✭✭✭✭ liamog


    It's not the particular model that I'm interested in, it's the format they are installed.
    The belib's in Paris were leftover from a failed shared car system, so weren't designed to address neighbourhood charging requirements.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,387 ✭✭✭ redcup342


    liamog wrote: »
    It's not the particular model that I'm interested in, it's the format they are installed.
    The belib's in Paris were leftover from a failed shared car system, so weren't designed to address neighbourhood charging requirements.

    Mmmm .. no .. you're confusing Belib (charging network) with Autolib (Car sharing)

    The leftover charging poles from Autolib are 3.7kW and are the most popular for charging.

    Belib (owned by Izivia) run the entire Network, 3.7kW AC, 22 kW AC and the DC Fast chargers.

    Some chargers use the Izivia branding as well.

    Those Autolib cars are still driving around paris, they sold them off for peanuts years ago, no DC Charging on those though :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,403 ✭✭✭✭ Mad_Lad


    It's just not going to work unless we can pull into any garage and charge like ICEs can fill up with liquid fuels. Not having to think about it or plan it, the majority of People don't want to do this.

    + the risk of queuing and if chargers are down etc.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,387 ✭✭✭ redcup342


    Mad_Lad wrote: »
    It's just not going to work unless we can pull into any garage and charge like ICEs can fill up with liquid fuels. Not having to think about it or plan it, the majority of People don't want to do this.

    + the risk of queuing and if chargers are down etc.

    My last week,

    Monday charged in work to 80%
    Wednesday went to IKEA for 2 hours - Charged @ 11KW AC
    Thursday went to Aldi - Charged 30 minutes
    Saturday went for Breakfast - Charged 1 hr 45 minutes @ 11kW AC on Public AC Charger
    Sunday went to the Swimming pool up in Oberhausen, charged for 1.5 hours on Tesla Destination charger in public garage.

    Yesterday was back in IKEA again looking for some more bits and charged then as well, even went to a second IKEA close by to look for a certain set of window blinds plugged in for 10 minutes.

    But basically whenever I park I try to charge, the battery hovers between 30% and 80%, I hardly ever use DC Fast Charging at all.

    I can't imagine wasting my time having to go somewhere and wait for my car to charge, I've only had to do that in places where there is a lack of on street AC Charging :)

    For longer distance trips I use DC Charging for sure, but i'll try and incorporate a longer AC Charging stop in a City to get some value out of it (and take advantage of free parking with a great location and some sight seeing)

    Only time I'll use a Petrol Station is to go to the Toilet or buy something on a Sunday when the shops are closed


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 6,102 Mod ✭✭✭✭ liamog


    redcup342 wrote: »
    Mmmm .. no .. you're confusing Belib (charging network) with Autolib (Car sharing)

    Ok, I knew autolib had closed, and thought that belib were contracted to run them. Looking on Plugshare, it certainly doesn't appear that belib have installed any charging hubs with multitudes of DC chargers.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,948 ✭✭✭✭ ELM327


    redcup342 wrote: »
    My last week,

    Monday charged in work to 80%
    Wednesday went to IKEA for 2 hours - Charged @ 11KW AC
    Thursday went to Aldi - Charged 30 minutes
    Saturday went for Breakfast - Charged 1 hr 45 minutes @ 11kW AC on Public AC Charger
    Sunday went to the Swimming pool up in Oberhausen, charged for 1.5 hours on Tesla Destination charger in public garage.

    Yesterday was back in IKEA again looking for some more bits and charged then as well, even went to a second IKEA close by to look for a certain set of window blinds plugged in for 10 minutes.

    But basically whenever I park I try to charge, the battery hovers between 30% and 80%, I hardly ever use DC Fast Charging at all.

    I can't imagine wasting my time having to go somewhere and wait for my car to charge, I've only had to do that in places where there is a lack of on street AC Charging :)

    For longer distance trips I use DC Charging for sure, but i'll try and incorporate a longer AC Charging stop in a City to get some value out of it (and take advantage of free parking with a great location and some sight seeing)

    Only time I'll use a Petrol Station is to go to the Toilet or buy something on a Sunday when the shops are closed
    That's very helpful for most folk who don't drive many miles.


    In the pre covid times I needed to charge every day in my model S, so your model of random topups wouldnt work. But for most folk (including me at the moment!) it would


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 6,102 Mod ✭✭✭✭ liamog


    redcup342 wrote: »
    My last week,

    Monday charged in work to 80%
    Wednesday went to IKEA for 2 hours - Charged @ 11KW AC
    Thursday went to Aldi - Charged 30 minutes
    Saturday went for Breakfast - Charged 1 hr 45 minutes @ 11kW AC on Public AC Charger
    Sunday went to the Swimming pool up in Oberhausen, charged for 1.5 hours on Tesla Destination charger in public garage.

    Yesterday was back in IKEA again looking for some more bits and charged then as well, even went to a second IKEA close by to look for a certain set of window blinds plugged in for 10 minutes.

    But basically whenever I park I try to charge, the battery hovers between 30% and 80%, I hardly ever use DC Fast Charging at all.

    That sounds like an absolutely terrible existence. Workplace charging is a reasonable alternative for those without home charging, but I don't think anyone will want to be constantly sucking electrons like that.
    I can't imagine wasting my time having to go somewhere and wait for my car to charge,

    That's the bit you are missing, I said "Now we just need to find a site where people will spend about an hour a week that has plenty of car parking ..."

    The ideal circumstance is charging hubs co-located with weekly shopping locations. Your car get's a full charge whilst you do your weekly shop, much better than having to park your car 500m from home one night a week.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,948 ✭✭✭✭ ELM327


    liamog wrote: »
    That sounds like an absolutely terrible existence. Workplace charging is a reasonable alternative for those without home charging, but I don't think anyone will want to be constantly sucking electrons like that.



    That's the bit you are missing, I said "Now we just need to find a site where people will spend about an hour a week that has plenty of car parking ..."

    The ideal circumstance is charging hubs co-located with weekly shopping locations. Your car get's a full charge whilst you do your weekly shop, much better than having to park your car 500m from home one night a week.


    And hopefully they install banks of 50kW chargers, the new "mild fast" there. 1 hour shopping and you're back to 80-90% in most cars.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,387 ✭✭✭ redcup342


    ELM327 wrote: »
    That's very helpful for most folk who don't drive many miles.


    In the pre covid times I needed to charge every day in my model S, so your model of random topups wouldnt work. But for most folk (including me at the moment!) it would

    I drove 750km in those days
    liamog wrote: »
    That sounds like an absolutely terrible existence. Workplace charging is a reasonable alternative for those without home charging, but I don't think anyone will want to be constantly sucking electrons like that.

    Why ? I didn't have to search for any parking, I just drove to the AC Charging point near where I was going to.
    liamog wrote: »
    That's the bit you are missing, I said "Now we just need to find a site where people will spend about an hour a week that has plenty of car parking ..."

    The ideal circumstance is charging hubs co-located with weekly shopping locations. Your car get's a full charge whilst you do your weekly shop, much better than having to park your car 500m from home one night a week.

    My car is sitting parked with 158KM of range left, i didn't need to charge it when I got home as I had opportunistic charging during my normal daily routine, as I said the range will hover around 20-80%, I rarely do a full charge unless I know I'm going on trip.

    I don't have to go anywhere to charge my car for my normal weekly stuff. I charge when I'm doing my normal stuff.

    The only time I take is the time to plug in the cable and walk away from the car. I spent even more time at the pump waiting for fuel to go in and going into pay.

    Worked for me over the past few years anyways.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 17,948 ✭✭✭✭ ELM327


    redcup342 wrote: »
    I drove 750km in those days



    Why ? I didn't have to search for any parking, I just drove to the AC Charging point near where I was going to.



    My car is sitting parked with 158KM of range left, i didn't need to charge it when I got home as I had opportunistic charging during my normal daily routine, as I said the range will hover around 20-80%, I rarely do a full charge unless I know I'm going on trip.

    I don't have to go anywhere to charge my car for my normal weekly stuff. I charge when I'm doing my normal stuff.

    The only time I take is the time to plug in the cable and walk away from the car. I spent even more time at the pump waiting for fuel to go in and going into pay.

    Worked for me over the past few years anyways.
    750km would be 3-4 days driving for me (pre covid), I wouldnt get enough incidental charging.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,387 ✭✭✭ redcup342


    ELM327 wrote: »
    750km would be 3-4 days driving for me (pre covid), I wouldnt get enough incidental charging.

    For me Pre Covid I wouldn't have any issues as we have 40x11kW split between two buildings with underground car parks.

    I haven't been in the office since March though :rolleyes: strange times.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,948 ✭✭✭✭ ELM327


    redcup342 wrote: »
    For me Pre Covid I wouldn't have any issues as we have 40x11kW split between two buildings with underground car parks.

    I haven't been in the office since March though :rolleyes: strange times.
    For me my weekday driving was covered by work charging too, so I guess that somewhat proves your point :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,906 ✭✭✭ McGiver


    redcup342 wrote:
    That's not a model that works, go to Monaco 50KW DC Chargers all over the place, cars charge too quickly so people don't get back within the timeframe of whatever they are doing so there are fully charged cars sitting on chargers meaning they aren't available for other people.
    You're absolutely right. Massive number of AC chargers is the way to go for cities. DC chargers belong at the petrol stations (mandated by law ;)
    redcup342 wrote:
    Cost difference is rather significant as well and the footprint is much larger (you don't need a big dedicated transformed for AC Chargers and can place them on city streets)
    DC chargers are expensive, faulty and need maintenance, deployment costs are high. The higher the power the worse with regards to the maintenance. AC chargers are way cheaper, way more reliable, cheaper to maintain, cheaper to deploy.

    Also, on your point is that no one wants to sit in the car while DC charging - very good point. The DC charging time is too long to wait but too short to leave and do something - the wait is just a waste of time really as you're left with now choice and wait. Whereas AC allows you to leave and do your business while the car is charging. I'm myself a big fan of 11/22 kW AC.

    The whole Dublin has 15 DC chargers or so, if I count suburbs like Lucan, Swords and the airport, the city itself has just a few of them.
    That's absolutely insufficient and needs work for sure (at least double the number) but the solution isn't massive deployment of DC chargers in cities but rather massive AC deployment. Unfortunately, the number of AC chargers in Dublin isn't great either. The same goes for the largest cities in the Republic i.e. Cork, Limerick and Galway, in fact the AC charger numbers there are laughable.

    Just had a look at Prague and Vienna, two cities I'm familiar with, similar to Dublin in size and population. They both have 40+ DC chargers and but are absolutely littered with AC chargers.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 6,102 Mod ✭✭✭✭ liamog


    McGiver wrote: »
    You're absolutely right. Massive number of AC chargers is the way to go for cities. DC chargers belong at the petrol stations (mandated by law ;)


    DC chargers are expensive, faulty and need maintenance, deployment costs are high. The higher the power the worse with regards to the maintenance. AC chargers are way cheaper, way more reliable, cheaper to maintain, cheaper to deploy.

    Also, on your point is that no one wants to sit in the car while DC charging - very good point. The DC charging time is too long to wait but too short to leave and do something - the wait is just a waste of time really as you're left with now choice and wait. Whereas AC allows you to leave and do your business while the car is charging. I'm myself a big fan of 11/22 kW AC.

    We're not discussing DC chargers like the motorways, we're discussing 50kW DC hubs in the likes of supermarket car parks, places where someone without the ability to charge at home likely already spends an hour or so a week. As 50kWh to 75kWh cars become the norm, you are already looking at around an hour to charge at a 50kW charger.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,860 ✭✭✭ the_amazing_raisin


    I'm going to suggest that you probably need to target chargers based on dwell time. I always figured it should look like this

    Motorway service stations - Min 150kW, charge as fast as possible, at least 4 chargers, redundant internet connections and someone on site trained in how to debug the chargers

    Shopping centres, supermarkets, city centers - 50kW DC charging hubs, multiple chargers which can either load share or have extra parking for waiting. Dwell time is typically less than 2 hours so 50kW is enough to get a decent charge.

    Car parks, on street parking, office blocks, hotels - Dwell time is probably more than 2 hours but less than 24, use 11kW 3 phase of 7kW single phase chargers, installed on as many spaces as possible. For places like Dublin city, you could either make them for permit holders only, or make them public but give permit holders a discount. For allocated spaces, just cable up for a charger and it's on the space owner to provide and install the charger

    Long term parking like airports - dwell time is several days, provide the slowest charge possible, around 2kW, just enough to trickle charge the battery over several days and stop the battery from freezing in winter


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,906 ✭✭✭ McGiver


    liamog wrote:
    We're not discussing DC chargers like the motorways, we're discussing 50kW DC hubs in the likes of supermarket car parks, places where someone without the ability to charge at home likely already spends an hour or so a week. As 50kWh to 75kWh cars become the norm, you are already looking at around an hour to charge at a 50kW charger.
    I know and that's what I said - DC hubs belong to motorways and out of the cities as the evidence from Europe shows. AC hubs belong to the cities and car parks.

    75 kWh cars don't and won't become the norm anytime soon. The market will stabilise at 50-55 kWh for vast majority of cars, above that is going to be high-end luxury segment.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 6,102 Mod ✭✭✭✭ liamog


    McGiver wrote: »
    I know and that's what I said - DC hubs belong to motorways and out of the cities as the evidence from Europe shows. AC hubs belong to the cities and car parks.

    AC hubs won't work though, where does someone that has a 55kWh car spend 5 hours a week parked, that isn't their near their home or workplace. That leaves us with either the choice of AC chargers on all the small streets where people don't have private parking, or hubs at supermarkets.
    There is also evidence that suburban DC hubs work, Dundee, and Milton Keynes are examples. I believe Fastned also have some in The Netherlands.

    Do you really envision someone driving to giant parking lot and abandoning their car for 5 hours?


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,906 ✭✭✭ McGiver


    liamog wrote:
    AC hubs won't work though, where does someone that has a 55kWh car spend 5 hours a week parked, that isn't their near their home or workplace. That leaves us with either the choice of AC chargers on all the small streets where people don't have private parking, or hubs at supermarkets. There is also evidence that suburban DC hubs work, Dundee, and Milton Keynes are examples. I believe Fastned also have some in The Netherlands.
    So there are 3 examples in whole Europe. Two of which are in the UK, so not even continental Europe. That's not many init :)

    Whereas virtually all big cities on the continent don't have any DC hubs.

    Suburban maybe. Urban likely not.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,387 ✭✭✭ redcup342


    liamog wrote: »
    AC hubs won't work though, where does someone that has a 55kWh car spend 5 hours a week parked, that isn't their near their home or workplace. That leaves us with either the choice of AC chargers on all the small streets where people don't have private parking, or hubs at supermarkets.
    There is also evidence that suburban DC hubs work, Dundee, and Milton Keynes are examples. I believe Fastned also have some in The Netherlands.

    Do you really envision someone driving to giant parking lot and abandoning their car for 5 hours?

    Running your battery all the way down to the point where you need to charge for 5 hours isn't necessary if you have high density AC Charging.

    Sure that makes total sense if you use Petrol/Diesel/LPG/Hydrogen etc, fuel stations are limited, everyone has to drive to a fuel station to fill up.

    In an EV your infrastructure is potentially on every street corner, every parking garage and every motorway route, basically anywhere there is electricity (most of the developed world)

    Driving an EV I spend less time "filling" since I just park, plug in and walk away to do whatever I would be doing anyway, takes around 30 seconds of my time, I'll take whatever juice I get from the time there, I don't need to go from 10% - 100%, If I'm at 60% I'll plug in and charge to 80%.

    My car is parked over a much longer combined time of 5 hours over the course of a week, so whatever range I use is replenished.

    With DC fast charging hubs, you need to go in almost empty for them to make sense, why would I drive into a DC Fast charger with 10% battery when it might be busy and it's possible I have to wait for a free charger. Then I'm 10%, kind of stuck there now waiting.

    Which is more efficient ? (Deployment Costs)

    3x 50kW DC Rapid Chargers supplying 3 cars at a time with everyone having to stay with the car to charge it

    Or

    32x 11kW AC Chargers (16 poles) with everyone being able to plug in and walk away to do whatever they need to do ?

    IMG_4495.JPG

    It's just changing the way of thinking, you never need to go from Full to Empty anymore, you can go from 60-70% or 30-50% or 60-80% whenever a charger is available.

    For your longer trips or trips where your turnaround is very short, thats where DC Rapid Charging is important, but again you only need DC Rapid Charging to get you to your destination doing a full charge on Rapid Charging is a waste of time if you have the option to load on AC when you arrive at wherever you are going.

    If you have the possibility I've mentioned above you won't have range anxiety


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