AC vs DC for charging without private parking

Lumen

I think my Model 3 only gets 11kW on a 22kW 3ph AC charger and about 40kW on a 50kW DC charger.

I accept that people with modern hi-tech EVs like the Zoe can avail of 22kW AC, but my lowly Tesla can't. :pac:

So a nominal 22kW charger is useless for me unless I'm going to leave it there overnight, and I don't want to leave the car overnight in a supermarket car park.

With a nominal 50kW charger I'd often stop to charge at ~30%, looking for 25kWh but happy enough to take up to 50kWh, and so a 50kW charger operating at 40kW gives me 40-80 minutes of charging which is a good amount of time to get stuff done without worrying about overstay fees. It's a nice sweet spot.

liamog

redcup342 wrote: »

Only one I can think of where people didn't move until the Car was fully charged was Ionity when they had their introductary rate of 8 euros flat.

From a providers perspective, DC is high value/margin, AC gets more customers.

The fortum report you shared back up my assertion for installing DC, fortum recognise exactly the synergy benefits from co-locating the sites.
Your are now making the point that DC chargers shouldn't be installed for hubs because they are too lucrative for the charging provider?

High commitment through partner reaping synergy effects
• Customers shop high-margin products while charging

The first report is from 2017, where outside of Tesla, the largest battery available was a 30kWh Leaf, where as I pointed out to McGiver, a 50kW DC charger could be seen as over provision.

redcup342

Lumen wrote: »

I think my Model 3 only gets 11kW on a 22kW 3ph AC charger and about 40kW on a 50kW DC charger.

I accept that people with modern hi-tech EVs like the Zoe can avail of 22kW AC, but my lowly Tesla can't. :pac:

So a nominal 22kW charger is useless for me unless I'm going to leave it there overnight, and I don't want to leave the car overnight in a supermarket car park.

With a nominal 50kW charger I'd often stop to charge at ~30%, looking for 25kWh but happy enough to take up to 50kWh, and so a 50kW charger operating at 40kW gives me 40-80 minutes of charging which is a good amount of time to get stuff done without worrying about overstay fees. It's a nice sweet spot.

Yep, my model 3 also gets 11kW, but I just use the combination of time when parked to charge rather than one session to charge from 30-80 percent.

Only time I charge to 80% is when I'm leaving the car overnight, If I'm away from home thats on the street or in a covered car park, however I only really do that if I know I'm going a long trip the next day.

Topping up here and there is totally adequate, I might plug in 3/4 times in a day if moving around, the combination of that time is what counts (this has the added benefit of easily finding a parking space and only drawing current when I'm parked on an EV Charging space)

There are rare cases where I'd try to plan as many kW as possible in a session but that's because one of the providers I use charges 3 euros flat for a session or 6 euros flat while roaming (outside of my region)

But the above is possible because there is an abundance of AC loading opportunities as most locations I want to go, even in the City Center of most Cities.

Charging hubs mean I'd be better off parking up the car then renting a city bicycle to get around to the different places I want to go.

liamog wrote: »

The fortum report you shared back up my assertion for installing DC, fortum recognise exactly the synergy benefits from co-locating the sites.
Your are now making the point that DC chargers shouldn't be installed for hubs because they are too lucrative for the charging provider?

Sure, but at a ratio of 100 AC to 2 DC with time based charging for DC and kWh based charging for AC

Yep they an have a higher margin after the site is paid off, but that's not up to them, the local authority sets the policy (either through incentives or permission)

The first report is from 2017, where outside of Tesla, the largest battery available was a 30kWh Leaf, where as I pointed out to McGiver, a 50kW DC charger could be seen as over provision.

Tesla Model S was on sale from 2014 in NL and NO, I think there was around 20,000 Teslas on the Road in 2017.

liamog

redcup342 wrote: »

Sure, but at a ratio of 100 AC to 2 DC with time based charging for DC and kWh based charging for AC

Yep they an have a higher margin after the site is paid off, but that's not up to them, the local authority sets the policy (either through incentives or permission)

The whole point about co-location is that there is no site to pay off, it's not about installing a tranche of DC chargers in greenfield sites, it's co-locating them at a location where there is a general expectation that a person has a dwell time between 30 mins and 1 hour.
As per fortums own report that you source, the site owner see's a mutual benefit and its beneficial for both.

Tesla Model S was on sale from 2014 in NL and NO, I think there was around 20,000 Teslas on the Road in 2017.

I'm not sure how an indication of the number of Tesla vehicles, is a response to the the comment that outside of Tesla battery sizes were approx 30kWh.

redcup342

liamog wrote: »

The whole point about co-location is that there is no site to pay off, it's not about installing a tranche of DC chargers in greenfield sites, it's co-locating them at a location where there is a general expectation that a person has a dwell time between 30 mins and 1 hour.
As per fortums own report that you source, the site owner see's a mutual benefit and its beneficial for both.

I'm not sure how an indication of the number of Tesla vehicles, is a response to the the comment that outside of Tesla battery sizes were approx 30kWh.

You can totally do that, but you'll have to stay with the car, or pay for it to sit on the charger if you don't come back within a specified time

Entry level on the 2014 Model S was 60 kWh, essentially they were solely relying on Type 2 AC as they couldn't use CCS back then and were using Superchargers for long distance anyways

liamog

redcup342 wrote: »

You can totally do that, but you'll have to stay with the car, or pay for it to sit on the charger if you don't come back within a specified time

I'm not sure about yourself, but generally when I'm in a supermarket, I don't spontaneously forget where I am and have a sit down meal. Last time I was in the UK, we charged our car a DC charger in a Morrision's car park. I did have to pop out to move the car, but we only have a 28kWh Ioniq. If the car had a bigger battery (which is part of the previous points made) we would have still been charging by the time we finished.

redcup342

liamog wrote: »

I'm not sure about yourself, but generally when I'm in a supermarket, I don't spontaneously forget where I am and have a sit down meal. Last time I was in the UK, we charged our car a DC charger in a Morrision's car park. I did have to pop out to move the car, but we only have a 28kWh Ioniq. If the car had a bigger battery (which is part of the previous points made) we would have still been charging by the time we finished.

Well this is the point, you need plan to go to the Supermarket and Charge while there.

Like your other half decides she wants to go look in the clothes shops and you say "oh but I have to go back and take the car off charge and move it"

I don't need to plan anything and just charge as part of the parking process while I'm doing any trip in the car whether its spontaneous or planned at any location because of AC Charging density.

It's fairly rare you have to walk more than 500 meters from a Charging spot in NL to where you are going.

Indeed, charging in the UK is fairly rubbish experience compared to most of the countries I've driven in and the sales figures for BEVs reflect that.

Bear in mind very few people in NL have access to a parking space on their property.

liamog

That was pretty much the premise, I need to go and charge the car because I can't charge at home, and I'm doing something else.
Doing so whilst doing your weekly grocery shop is an ideal time to fit this in.

Certainly from my own car usage, if my car wasn't at home or work, there aren't really 5/6 hours a week where the car is sat still long enough for AC charging to be the solution.

redcup342

liamog wrote: »

That was pretty much the premise, I need to go and charge the car because I can't charge at home, and I'm doing something else.
Doing so whilst doing your weekly grocery shop is an ideal time to fit this in.

Certainly from my own car usage, if my car wasn't at home or work, there aren't really 5/6 hours a week where the car is sat still long enough for AC charging to be the solution.

I have many options because of charger density.:

I go to the Gym every few days (charge on street AC)

Play Badminton once a week (charge on street AC)

Large supermarket shop (charge on street AC, DC Charger at aldi is always occupied and only 20kW)

Down to the Eifel to go hiking (charge AC Public Car Park)

Over to NL to go shopping in Roermond. (80 AC Charging points, never stuck for one)

Spend a day at the Spa (20x AC Charging points)

Massage 2 times a month (On street charging point)

Visit some friends in Den Haag, Delft, Amsterdam, Cologne wherever (Always AC loading options in Car Parks or Onstreet)

Out for dinner somewhere in the Area (Charge at the restaurant on AC or on Street)

Go to the Cinema (Charge AC at the cinema or on street)

Loads of other opportunities

I'll charge all of those times even if I'm at 40 50 60 or even 70%
I recover any kilometers I driven and then some just plugging in for 1 hour at wherever I'm going.

There are spots all over the City (Dusseldorf) you can park and charge while you go about your business, you can also see if the charger is available. ICE Cars are towed away if they block the spot.

If DC only was being deployed then there would be far less loading options available, more chargers with less is better than less chargers with more.

You don't need to sit on a charger for 4-5 hours to charge up your car, you only need to draw enough kWh to cover the kilometers you have driven or are going to drive.

KCross

After pages of over and back the reality hasnt changed.... we need loads more AC and DC! With lots more AC than DC for economies of scale.

As redcup has said, when you charge on AC it doesnt always have to be the case that you go to 100%. You dont typically do it on DC either as the tapering after 80% is generally crap depending on the car.

So, loads more AC and DC everywhere and pick the one that suits you for that journey.

ELM327

KCross wrote: »

After pages of over and back the reality hasnt changed.... we need loads more AC and DC! With lots more AC than DC for economies of scale.

As redcup has said, when you charge on AC it doesnt always have to be the case that you go to 100%. You dont typically do it on DC either as the tapering after 80% is generally crap depending on the car.

So, loads more AC and DC everywhere and pick the one that suits you for that journey.

Absolutely. I think Redcup is suffering from a perspective predicated on being in a country where both options are readily available wherever you are. We do not have that here. Far from it.

redcup342

ELM327 wrote: »

Absolutely. I think Redcup is suffering from a perspective predicated on being in a country where both options are readily available wherever you are. We do not have that here. Far from it.

I've driven over most of Northern Europe in various BEVs as far south as Northern Italy, as far east at the Czech Republic and West as far as the UK.

In different vehicles such as a BMW i3, i3S, E-Tron 55, Jaguar i-Pace and Tesla M3. I've even taken a Smart EQ on occasion.

In Cities (I've been to) where it's "high value" DC loading only it's a sh*t show (unless you are driving a Tesla)

Sure you need DC but this needs to be on the Motorways, higher speed the better, Fastned is a perfect example and is a model that should be followed.

But for Cities you need widespead AC Deployment with a minimum of 11kW to fit the needs of all EV Drivers (demand driven so they are placed where people request them)

Otherwise you are stuck to this Empty/Full Petrol station mentality.

liamog

redcup342 wrote: »

In Cities (I've been to) where it's "high value" DC loading only it's a sh*t show (unless you are driving a Tesla)

...

But for Cities you need widespead AC Deployment with a minimum of 11kW to fit the needs of all EV Drivers (demand driven so they are placed where people request them)

We're not arguing for DC only, and we've given many examples of reasons why AC11kW does not suit the needs of many potential EV drivers

redcup342

liamog wrote: »

We're not arguing for DC only, and we've given many examples of reasons why AC11kW does not suit the needs of many potential EV drivers

At least all cars can use Type 2 AC, DC is unsuitable for every PHEV and every EV that's Type 2 Only (such as the Smart EQ and the Twizzy)

liamog

redcup342 wrote: »

At least all cars can use Type 2 AC, DC is unsuitable for every PHEV and every EV that's Type 2 Only (such as the Smart EQ and the Twizzy)

A basically meaningless requirement for installing chargers to cope with the current wave of EVs with 50kWh to 75kWh batteries

redcup342

liamog wrote: »

A basically meaningless requirement for installing chargers to cope with the current wave of EVs with 50kWh to 75kWh batteries

So to the original point ? Where do you charge your car without having to be away from home ? If you dont have a parking space ?

liamog

redcup342 wrote: »

So to the original point ? Where do you charge your car without having to be away from home ? If you dont have a parking space ?

So the new reason for not having any DC chargers at supermarkets is to avoid upsetting the extremely small number of Twizzy drivers who don't have home charging.
That sounds like an excellent reason to inconvenience the other 90% of EV drivers whose car's are cable of DC charging.

McGiver

liamog wrote:

This is the Sandvika Storsenter shopping center in Norway. 3.5km down the road is an IKEA with 4 50kW DC chargers. It really took no effort at all to find a few examples.

There's literally 20-30 times more AC examples for the same scenario, in the same place. You just pull examples you want to present ignoring that they are a rarity. AC is everywhere. DC much less so.

Still waiting for the rationale why you think IE will develop contrary to all the much more developed EV markets.

liamog

McGiver wrote: »

There's literally 20-30 times more AC examples for the same scenario, in the same place. You just pull examples you want to present ignoring that they are a rarity. AC is everywhere. DC much less so.

I've addressed your point multiple times about why there are currently more examples of AC deployments than DC. I'm not sure why you keep ignoring it.

This has nothing to do with Irish deployments, 50kW DC is being rolled out in multiple places across Europe to address charging requirements in locations where people spend between 30 minutes and one hour. You asked for an example in a mature EV market, and I found you some.

redcup342

liamog wrote: »

So the new reason for not having any DC chargers at supermarkets is to avoid upsetting the extremely small number of Twizzy drivers who don't have home charging.
That sounds like an excellent reason to inconvenience the other 90% of EV drivers whose car's are cable of DC charging.

Well that and Smart ED and EQ.

Quite a nice little car for nipping around the city btw

But back to your point:

liamog wrote: »

We're not discussing DC chargers like the motorways, we're discussing 50kW DC hubs in the likes of supermarket car parks, places where someone without the ability to charge at home likely already spends an hour or so a week. As 50kWh to 75kWh cars become the norm, you are already looking at around an hour to charge at a 50kW charger.

As I've said already you can have DC Fast charging at locations where there is access to parking, BUT if you don't have any infrastructure to speak off you need to walk before you can run.

Fuel stations get their product delivered by trucks and everyone goes to that location to fill up so a fuel station makes sense.

Infrastructure for electricity is literally everywhere, there is no reason why you cannot place distribution points at places where people live, work, shop, eat, go to the toilet, exercise and so on.

The important thing is people have as many opportunities as possible to get that energy and the only way to do that is to roll it out in the cheapest way possible.

Whether it's AC Loading poles on street or normal plug sockets in car parks that's the quickest way to do it.

You don't need to fill your battery all in one sitting, you just need options to fill it when you aren't driving (most of the time your car is sitting parked anyway)

Deploy DC if you want at locations where you have a plethora of AC Charging already, but

A. It'll cost more
B. You'll need to charge for time instead of kW or a combination of both.

Otherwise it won't be available when people need it.

Lumen

OK, taking the two models as simplistic alternatives, and assuming all cars on the road are EVs and half of them don't have home charging, which is more scaleable?

1. Supermarkets and shopping centres with 50% of the spaces having 50kW DC (because if you only charge once a week, you really need to be very sure that a charger will be free).

2. 50% of all public parking spaces having (say) 10A 2 phase untethered AC.

I don't know the answer. Maybe it has been revealed already and I missed it.

redcup342

Lumen wrote: »

OK, taking the two models as simplistic alternatives, and assuming all cars on the road are EVs and half of them don't have home charging, which is more scaleable?

1. Supermarkets and shopping centres with 50% of the spaces having 50kW DC (because if you only charge once a week, you really need to be very sure that a charger will be free).

2. 50% of all public parking spaces having (say) 10A 2 phase untethered AC.

I don't know the answer. Maybe it has been revealed already and I missed it.

Well I'd say the cars are spending most of the time parked where people live and sleep so it would make sense to have charging there rather than some location they are only spending 45 minutes to one hour.

BoatMad

My view , is for people that don’t have access to domestic charging , is access to DC fast charging . Added to that AC charging at work , over nights in hotels etc

Low dwell time locations, with low power charging is largely useless , 7kw or less being of little use for people staying <=an hour

liamog

redcup342 wrote: »

Deploy DC if you want at locations where you have a plethora of AC Charging already, but

A. It'll cost more
B. You'll need to charge for time instead of kW or a combination of both.

A. We worked out the cost differential it was cent's on the kWh, roughly speaking 5c/kWh extra would cover the capital cost and maintenance overhead for deploying 50kW DC vs 11kW AC per unit of available charging.
B. I just don't agree with you on this, ironically I believe AC should be charged by time, and 50kW DC charged by energy supplied.

redcup342

BoatMad wrote: »

My view , is for people that don’t have access to domestic charging , is access to DC fast charging . Added to that AC charging at work , over nights in hotels etc

Low dwell time locations, with low power charging is largely useless , 7kw or less being of little use for people staying <=an hour

You spend most of your time at home, electricity is already running through the streets so no additional infrastructure other than a loading pole needs to be built.

liamog wrote: »

A. We worked out the cost differential it was cent's on the kWh, roughly speaking 5c/kWh extra would cover the capital cost and maintenance overhead for deploying 50kW DC vs 11kW AC per unit of available charging.
B. I just don't agree with you on this, ironically I believe AC should be charged by time, and 50kW DC charged by energy supplied.

I don't know where you got that 5c / kWh cost from, perhaps you should start an energy company :pac:

On your point B
I'd prefer to have a rapid charger available when I need it rather than it being in use by someone that just wants to top up because there's an empty space.

I'm echoing McGivers point though

Still waiting for the rationale why you think IE will develop contrary to all the much more developed EV markets.

Can you give us an answer

liamog

redcup342 wrote: »

I don't know where you got that 5c / kWh cost from, perhaps you should start an energy company :pac:

Pretty straightforward and it was posted in thread, but I can work the example with you again.

Installation of 5 2x11kW AC chargers and 2 50kW DC chargers.
Capacity is 110kW and 100kW, so we can discount electrical network requirements as identical.

Purchase cost for the charging equipment is 2x€25,000 vs 5x€4,000.
So that's €50,000 vs €20,000. Using a 30% occupancy rate and a 5 year operating period.

€30,000 / 5 / 365 gives the daily extra cost as €27.40.
The chargers supply the equivalent electricity as being occupied 30% of the time (50 * 2 * 24 * 30%) to give a daily supply of 720kWh. €27.40 / 720 is 3.8c/kWh. I then rounded it up to 5c/kWh to cover maintenance.
Obviously the predicted occupancy rate is key, but even if the charges are only occupied for 15% of the day, the extra cost to cover the purchase is 7.6c/kWh.

liamog

redcup342 wrote: »

Can you give us an answer

Can you read the answer that was provided to McGiver

This has nothing to do with Irish deployments, 50kW DC is being rolled out in multiple places across Europe to address charging requirements in locations where people spend between 30 minutes and one hour. You asked for an example in a mature EV market, and I found you some.

If anything the question should be, why is Ireland not following the lead of other European countries, and instead we have 2x22kW AC installations at supermarkets.

redcup342

liamog wrote: »

Pretty straightforward and it was posted in thread, but I can work the example with you again.

Installation of 5 2x11kW AC chargers and 2 50kW DC chargers.
Capacity is 110kW and 100kW, so we can discount electrical network requirements as identical.

Purchase cost for the charging equipment is 2x€25,000 vs 5x€4,000.
So that's €50,000 vs €20,000. Using a 30% occupancy rate and a 5 year operating period.

€30,000 / 5 / 365 gives the daily extra cost as €27.40.
The chargers supply the equivalent electricity as being occupied 30% of the time (50 * 2 * 24 * 30%) to give a daily supply of 720kWh. €27.40 / 720 is 3.8c/kWh. I then rounded it up to 5c/kWh to cover maintenance.
Obviously the predicted occupancy rate is key, but even if the charges are only occupied for 15% of the day, the extra cost to cover the purchase is 7.6c/kWh.

You haven't factored in that company has to balance the margin against the wholesale energy cost + whatever contract rate they fixed when they joined whatever Charging Network they are in.

Nor have you factored in the cost of financing during the break even period of 5 years (I don't know where you came up with 5 years, that's a very long break even period for a local operator)

4000 euros for an AC Loading pole is extremely high also, look at almost halving that (even less with government grants)

And don't forget about maintenence, 1 AC Pole fails you lost 20% capacity, 1 DC Charger fails you lost 50% capacity, DC Chargers are a lot more unreliable due to complexity (the have more parts and have a tethered cable)

But even using your numbers spending the money on places where 10 people can charge their cars while they sit at home or sleep vs spending the same money on 2 charging points where people can queue up to charge seems like a no brainer for me.

There is no need for the Fueling Station Model anymore.

liamog

redcup342 wrote: »

You haven't factored in that company has to balance the margin against the wholesale energy cost + whatever contract rate they fixed when they joined whatever Charging Network they are in.

The energy supply is the same, so not sure why that would need to be balanced in? 5 years is a fairly reasonable estimate of the lifetime of a charger. Overall profitability will be based on the the actual per kWh pricing, these numbers are to address the cost differential over the expected lifetime of the chargers, not the operating profits of your business model. Prices for commercial charges were taken from the source provided by innrain.

redcup342

liamog wrote: »

The energy supply is the same, so not sure why that would need to be balanced in? 5 years is a fairly reasonable estimate of the lifetime of a charger. Overall profitability will be based on the the actual per kWh pricing, these numbers are to address the cost differential over the expected lifetime of the chargers, not the operating profits of your business model. Prices for commercial charges were taken from the source provided by innrain.

A. Your assuming all of the AC Chargers need to be in the same place (they don't) therefore the Energy Requirement is not the same.

B. The price per / kWh for supply is the B2B Price the owner of the Loading Station pays for their power.

They'll also have the price they get when in a Network, for example:
https://has-to-be.com/en/industries/emobility-for-municipal-utilities/

You can make your money by fixing a contract on your B2B Contract or your Wholesale Energy price (If you are an energy company, many energy companies have a Trading arm for this very purpose)

You can try and stay out of a charging network and build your own billing system, this tends to be a major additional cost. Some companies find it easier to just buy an existing company to do this (Shell Recharge purchasing New Motion for example)

C. If I was running a Project where the break even point was the same as the projected lifetime of the service our Portfolio Management Office would probably ask if I was feeling ok. :pac: