New R&A Rules from 1/1/19

HighLine · 29-01-2019 10:51am

idle wrote: »

Came up at the weekend. Ball embedded in the grass face of a bunker. Dropping within 1 club length either side results in the ball in the bunker. Must the ball then be played from the bunker?

No, you don't play the ball from the bunker. Grass face is outside the bunker so your relief is for the "general area".

So you drop it, if it rolls into the bunker, you drop it again. Then after rolling into the bunker a second time, you get to place it. If you still can't place it without it rolling, you move to the nearest point, not nearer the hole, where the ball will be at rest after placing. (If it's a big, steep grass face, this point could be several meters away)

slave1 · 29-01-2019 11:46am

STATEMENT FROM EUROPEAN TOUR CEO KEITH PELLEY ON THE LI HAOTONG PENALTY

‘There has been much discussion and comment over the past 24 hours on the two-shot penalty given to Li Haotong for his breach of Rule 10.2b (4) on the 18th green of the Omega Dubai Desert Classic.

‘Let me state initially that, under the new Rules of Golf issued on January 1, 2019, the decision made by our referees was correct, under the strict wording of the rules. It is my strong belief, however, that the fact there is no discretion available to our referees when implementing rulings such as this is wrong and should be addressed immediately.

‘Everyone I have spoken to about this believes, as I do, that there was no malice or intent from Li Haotong, nor did he gain any advantage from his, or his caddie’s split-second actions. Therefore the subsequent two shot penalty, which moved him from T3 in the tournament to T12, was grossly unfair in my opinion.

‘In an era where we are striving to improve all aspects of golf, we need to be careful and find the proper balance between maintaining the integrity of the game and promoting its global appeal.

‘I have spoken personally to R&A Chief Executive Martin Slumbers to voice my opposition to the fact there is no discretion available to our referees in relation to this ruling, and I will be making additional representation to the R&A in the near future to discuss the matter further.’

10.2b(4) - Restriction on caddie standing behind player – explanation

Li Haotong’s caddie was on a direct line behind the ball when he began to take his stance on the 18th green. The player’s caddie must not stand behind the player for any reason when a player begins taking a stance. Haotong could have avoided the penalty if he had backed off the stroke and retaken his stance. He did not, hence a two-stroke penalty applied to his score on 18.

Read more at http://www.europeantour.com/europeantour/news/newsid=365137.html#ZMAbgdMP5VzFaf3c.99

kennethrhcp · 29-01-2019 12:46pm

Just following on from caddie behind the player rule, does this mean in Bruen your playing partner cant stand behind also?

paulos53 · 29-01-2019 1:18pm

kennethrhcp wrote: »

Just following on from caddie behind the player rule, does this mean in Bruen your playing partner cant stand behind also?

Correct. Rules for caddies apply to playing partners in Foursomes and Fourballs

idle · 29-01-2019 1:19pm

HighLine wrote: »

No, you don't play the ball from the bunker. Grass face is outside the bunker so your relief is for the "general area".

So you drop it, if it rolls into the bunker, you drop it again. Then after rolling into the bunker a second time, you get to place it. If you still can't place it without it rolling, you move to the nearest point, not nearer the hole, where the ball will be at rest after placing. (If it's a big, steep grass face, this point could be several meters away)

Assuming it’s a semi circle shaped links bunker with a steep grass face and the ball is embedded right of centre as you face the green. The nearest point not nearer the hole is outside the right edge of the bunker. I’m now standing in the bunker and the ball is chest height. Is there further relief to get me out of the bunker?

HighLine · 29-01-2019 1:38pm

idle wrote: »

Assuming it’s a semi circle shaped links bunker with a steep grass face and the ball is embedded right of centre as you face the green. The nearest point not nearer the hole is outside the right edge of the bunker. I’m now standing in the bunker and the ball is chest height. Is there further relief to get me out of the bunker?

Finding it hard to understand... why can't you stand outside the bunker whilst dropping it?

Just to reiterate... your nearest point of relief must be in the general area (i.e. outside the bunker) and you must also drop the ball from knee height at a standing position. The last point only determines your dropping height, it doesn't mean you have to drop it whilst standing. So far example... my knee at standing position is 20" from the ground. So if I want, I can lay flat on my back, raise my arm to 20" high, and drop the ball. This would be a legal drop.

idle · 29-01-2019 1:46pm

HighLine wrote: »

Finding it hard to understand... why can't you stand outside the bunker whilst dropping it?

Just to reiterate... your nearest point of relief must be in the general area (i.e. outside the bunker) and you must also drop the ball from knee height at a standing position. The last point only determines your dropping height, it doesn't mean you have to drop it whilst standing. So far example... my knee at standing position is 20" from the ground. So if I want, I can lay flat on my back, raise my arm to 20" high, and drop the ball. This would be a legal drop.

Apologies, what I’m trying to say is; having dropped the ball from knee height outside the bunker, in order to play the shot (right handed) I’m standing in the bunker and the ball is chest height. It it tough s**t?

Or do I get one club either side from where I’m dropping it? Thus allowing me drop it one club length outside the bunker and allowing me to take a stance outside the bunker

slave1 · 29-01-2019 1:58pm

All free drops in golf are one club length (longest club in bag except the putter so usually the driver) so you can drop one club length from nearest point which should give you a non-mid-air stance.

GreeBo · 29-01-2019 2:24pm

kennethrhcp wrote: »

Just following on from caddie behind the player rule, does this mean in Bruen your playing partner cant stand behind also?

Open to correction, but I dont think your partner every could? Rule 14-2b
YOur opposition could & still can, but your partner cant.
Was 2 stroke penalty for the player if partner breaches this rule.

HighLine · 29-01-2019 2:44pm

GreeBo wrote: »

Open to correction, but I dont think your partner every could? Rule 14-2b
YOur opposition could & still can, but your partner cant.
Was 2 stroke penalty for the player if partner breaches this rule.

That's true but there is a slight change in the wording of the new rule.
The old rule stated "in making a stroke" whereas the new rule 10-2 b(4) says "When a player begins taking a stance for the stroke and until the stroke is made"

Slight change as I said but one that Haotong Li will know fairly well.

Also.. I don't think the following restriction was included for strokes made other than on the putting green...

"If the player takes a stance in breach of this Rule, he or she cannot avoid penalty by backing away." 10-2 b(4)

kennethrhcp · 29-01-2019 2:54pm

GreeBo wrote: »

Open to correction, but I dont think your partner every could? Rule 14-2b
YOur opposition could & still can, but your partner cant.
Was 2 stroke penalty for the player if partner breaches this rule.

pretty sure they were ok to line each other up but couldn't stand behind the line once his/her partner started making the putting stroke?

Seve OB · 29-01-2019 3:22pm

I can see trouble here, not for the pro's but for us amateurs.

Who hasn't (I ask hasn't because I bet everyone has and I bet will continue to do so) stood behind your partner, teammate, playing partner, opposition whoever, whilst they are taking a stroke? Not however to line them up, but rather because it is the best place to stand in order to keep your eye on their ball especially when you might be playing in poor light or glaring sun

Seve OB · 29-01-2019 3:27pm

GreeBo wrote: »

Open to correction, but I dont think your partner every could? Rule 14-2b
YOur opposition could & still can, but your partner cant.
Was 2 stroke penalty for the player if partner breaches this rule.

So I'm on the putting green and have a similar line of putt to my opposition, be it in stroke play or match play and you are saying it is fine for me to line myself up behind them while they take their shot?

I'm not sure that is or ever has been allowed? Sure don't we always see the pros get close, but not in line, and once the stroke is made, see them jump in on the line to watch the putt move

paulos53 · 29-01-2019 3:46pm

Seve OB wrote: »

So I'm on the putting green and have a similar line of putt to my opposition, be it in stroke play or match play and you are saying it is fine for me to line myself up behind them while they take their shot?

I'm not sure that is or ever has been allowed? Sure don't we always see the pros get close, but not in line, and once the stroke is made, see them jump in on the line to watch the putt move

I am not certain about the new rule book but it was not against the rules last year. However it was mentioned in the Etiquette section as something that you should not do.

Johnny_Fontane · 29-01-2019 4:14pm

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

No wind and pin type a significant influence on choice.

If wind is in face, you simply have to take flag out.

I play links and we played in a 2/3 club wind a couple of weeks ago, flag never came out. I know what you are getting at with a flag bent over, but havent seen it yet. As for pin type, well, I can't comment on that, nor can any amateur golfer, because, well, all flags imho are roughly the same.

Again, I'd implore everyone to try it for a whole round. Leave your bias and experience at the door!

slave1 · 29-01-2019 4:46pm

Seve OB wrote: »

So I'm on the putting green and have a similar line of putt to my opposition, be it in stroke play or match play and you are saying it is fine for me to line myself up behind them while they take their shot?

I'm not sure that is or ever has been allowed? Sure don't we always see the pros get close, but not in line, and once the stroke is made, see them jump in on the line to watch the putt move

paulos53 wrote: »

I am not certain about the new rule book but it was not against the rules last year. However it was mentioned in the Etiquette section as something that you should not do.

Yeah, that's my recollection but I've recycled the old rule book now

First Up · 29-01-2019 4:47pm

Not from what I've heard. Direct behind is how I heard a rules official explain it.

And when asked if that put you in an awkward position the reply was "tough".

GreeBo · 29-01-2019 5:06pm

paulos53 wrote: »

I am not certain about the new rule book but it was not against the rules last year. However it was mentioned in the Etiquette section as something that you should not do.

Its only your "team" that cant do it, opposition are free to, though you could of course ask them to move.

Seve OB · 29-01-2019 5:21pm

So old rules say that I'm free to watch from behind on a direct line anyones (as long as they are not a team member/caddy) putt even if it may help me read the green?

And this has not changed in new rules? or has it?

slave1 · 29-01-2019 5:46pm

GreeBo wrote: »

...opposition are free to, though you could of course ask them to move.

So they're not free to do so then if you can ask them to move

idle · 29-01-2019 6:35pm

paulos53 wrote: »

I am not certain about the new rule book but it was not against the rules last year. However it was mentioned in the Etiquette section as something that you should not do.

Has it not always been the case that an oppponent can not stand directly behind the putter but can move in to see the putt once the stroke has been made, as seen on TV?

First Up · 29-01-2019 6:46pm

slave1 wrote:

So they're not free to do so then if you can ask them to move

They are unless you ask them not to.

Golfgraffix · 29-01-2019 8:03pm

HighLine wrote: »

No, you don't play the ball from the bunker. Grass face is outside the bunker so your relief is for the "general area".

So you drop it, if it rolls into the bunker, you drop it again. Then after rolling into the bunker a second time, you get to place it. If you still can't place it without it rolling, you move to the nearest point, not nearer the hole, where the ball will be at rest after placing. (If it's a big, steep grass face, this point could be several meters away)

Where did you find this ruling. I asked the GUI for clarification a few weeks back and they couldn’t give a decision. I was asking about reverted faces in particular

HighLine · 29-01-2019 8:41pm

Golfgraffix wrote: »

Where did you find this ruling. I asked the GUI for clarification a few weeks back and they couldn’t give a decision. I was asking about reverted faces in particular

I was referring to the grass face.. which is not part of the bunker hazard. (Ruling in Jimmy Bruen circa 4 years ago)

With regards to the revetted bunker face, perhaps ask the R&A rather than the GUI.... I would be fairy sure they are treated the same as grass however.

Golfgraffix · 29-01-2019 8:49pm

HighLine wrote: »

I was referring to the grass face.. which is not part of the bunker hazard. (Ruling in Jimmy Bruen circa 4 years ago)

With regards to the revetted bunker face, perhaps ask the R&A rather than the GUI.... I would be fairy sure they are treated the same as grass however.

Revetted face is a general area. But I can’t find the wording where it states you can drop further than one club

idle · 29-01-2019 8:53pm

HighLine wrote: »

I was referring to the grass face.. which is not part of the bunker hazard. (Ruling in Jimmy Bruen circa 4 years ago)

With regards to the revetted bunker face, perhaps ask the R&A rather than the GUI.... I would be fairy sure they are treated the same as grass however.

Rule 12.1. The revetted face is not considered part of the bunker

idle · 29-01-2019 11:47pm

HighLine wrote: »

I was referring to the grass face.. which is not part of the bunker hazard. (Ruling in Jimmy Bruen circa 4 years ago)

With regards to the revetted bunker face, perhaps ask the R&A rather than the GUI.... I would be fairy sure they are treated the same as grass however.

There’s a diagram in the new players rules edition showing a ball in the revetted face of a bunker and it states that the ball is not in the bunker so it would seem it can be treated the same as a grass face

I had a look through the rules there and I’m none the wiser. The only thing I could find is that if a ball replaced doesn’t stay at rest then it’s replaced on the nearest spot not nearer the hole where it will stay at rest.

This would likely be the edge of the bunker leaving you with a baseball swing or a left handed swing (for this scenario).

One for John Paramor I reckon

29-01-2019 11:55pm

HighLine wrote: »

No, you don't play the ball from the bunker. Grass face is outside the bunker so your relief is for the "general area".

So you drop it, if it rolls into the bunker, you drop it again. Then after rolling into the bunker a second time, you get to place it. If you still can't place it without it rolling, you move to the nearest point, not nearer the hole, where the ball will be at rest after placing. (If it's a big, steep grass face, this point could be several meters away)

Now I know this would probably never come up but what happens if you have the sea/lake behind you and you cant place a ball for (as it keeps rolling in) and you can't go backwards

HighLine · 29-01-2019 11:59pm

Golfgraffix wrote: »

Revetted face is a general area. But I can’t find the wording where it states you can drop further than one club

You can only drop within 1 club length. The scenario I described above however is when after being dropped twice,a player must place the ball. And if the ball will not place on the spot, i.e. it rolls into the bunker, then you get to find the nearest point of relief, where the ball will remain at rest after being replaced.

14-2e

What to Do If Replaced Ball Does Not Stay on Original Spot
If the player tries to replace a ball but it does not stay on its original spot, the player must try a second time.

If the ball again does not stay on that spot, the player must replace the ball by placing it on the nearest spot where the ball will stay at rest, but with these limits depending on where the original spot is located:

The spot must not be nearer the hole.
Original Spot in General Area. The nearest spot must be in the general area.
Original Spot in Bunker or Penalty Area. The nearest spot must be either in the same bunker or in the same penalty area.
Original Spot on Putting Green. The nearest spot must be either on the putting green or in the general area.

slave1 · 30-01-2019 10:48am

If a ball is buried in the grass face of a bunker (and we all agree this is not in the bunker as per the rules) then it should be dropped at the nearest point of relief....
Surely the nearest point of relief (in the first instance) would be outside the bunker as to try and drop a ball into a face would be silly?

HighLine · 30-01-2019 10:57am

slave1 wrote: »

If a ball is buried in the grass face of a bunker (and we all agree this is not in the bunker as per the rules) then it should be dropped at the nearest point of relief....
Surely the nearest point of relief (in the first instance) would be outside the bunker as to try and drop a ball into a face would be silly?

Honestly I think the wording of the rule is flawed. There is no mention of the "nearest point of relief". All other situations in the Abnormal Course Conditions Rule (Rule 16), they specifically state the nearest point of relief but not so for an embedded ball.

So if, for example, a ball is plugged just marginally outside the bunker into a grass/rivetted face... then how can your reference point be "right behind the ball".

Rule 16-3(b)

b
Relief for Embedded Ball
When a player’s ball is embedded in the general area and relief is allowed under Rule 16.3a, the player may take free relief by dropping the original ball or another ball in this relief area (see Rule 14.3):

Reference Point: The spot right behind where the ball is embedded.
Size of Relief Area Measured from Reference Point: One club-length, but with these limits:
Limits on Location of Relief Area:
Must be in the general area, and
Must not be nearer the hole than the reference point.

idle · 30-01-2019 1:34pm

I just emailed the scenario to the R&A there so we’ll see what they come back with

GreeBo · 31-01-2019 8:53am

slave1 wrote: »

So they're not free to do so then if you can ask them to move

They are, there is nothing in the rules that says they cannot stand there.
I said you can ask them, they dont have to move though.

You can *ask* anyone to do anything, doesnt mean they are going to do it!

GreeBo · 31-01-2019 8:55am

slave1 wrote: »

If a ball is buried in the grass face of a bunker (and we all agree this is not in the bunker as per the rules) then it should be dropped at the nearest point of relief....
Surely the nearest point of relief (in the first instance) would be outside the bunker as to try and drop a ball into a face would be silly?

Relief is from the embedded ball, not the bunker, so why is the nearest point not in the bunker?
Though you probably cant drop into a hazard I guess.

Golfgraffix · 31-01-2019 9:50am

GreeBo wrote: »

Relief is from the embedded ball, not the bunker, so why is the nearest point not in the bunker?
Though you probably cant drop into a hazard I guess.

The embedded rule is, when a player’s ball is embedded in the general area and relief is allowed under Rule 16.3a, the player may take free relief by dropping the original ball or another ball in this relief area (Rule 14.3):

The definition of the General Area is;

The area of the course that covers all of the course except for the other four defined areas:
The teeing area the player must play from in starting the hole he or she is playing,
All penalty areas,
All bunkers,
The putting green of the hole the player is playing.

The general area includes: All teeing locations on the course other than the teeing area, and All wrong greens.

My understanding is that the revetted face is not part of the bunker and is not part of any of the 4 areas listed above so it must be part of the General Area and as such free relief is allowed.

So if relief is allowed where is it to be taken ? before the embedded rule change it was a penalty drop so you could go back in line with the point of entry and flag or take two club lengths, which in most cases would not require dropping in the bunker. As this is now a non-penalty drop the options change to the Relief Area, which is defined as;

Reference Point: The spot right behind where the ball is embedded.
Size of Relief Area Measured from Reference Point: One club-length, but with these limits:
Must be in the general area, and
Must not be nearer the hole than the reference point.

As the drop must be in the general area it can’t be dropped in the bunker. The issue I see is that if its only one club length and no nearer the hole there, in many cases will be no way of dropping within these rules. Case in hand is the 13th hole at where I play where the revetted face is 26 metres long.

slave1 · 31-01-2019 11:48am

We also have to be practical, on severe revetted faces it is simply not possible or safe to drop in the prescribed manner onto same revetted face so logic would dictate dropping outside the bunker area (I know the grass face of a bunker is not considered part of the bunker hazard but you know what I mean)...

slave1 · 31-01-2019 11:51am

In your case Golfgraffix if you were embedded in the centre of that face surely your drop would be behind the bunker ( assuming face greenside ) as that’s bound to be closer than moving left or right

GreeBo · 31-01-2019 12:18pm

slave1 wrote: »

In your case Golfgraffix if you were embedded in the centre of that face surely your drop would be behind the bunker ( assuming face greenside ) as that’s bound to be closer than moving left or right

Reference Point: The spot right behind where the ball is embedded.
Size of Relief Area Measured from Reference Point: One club-length

The above would preclude that.

Golfgraffix · 31-01-2019 2:04pm

GreeBo wrote: »

Reference Point: The spot right behind where the ball is embedded.
Size of Relief Area Measured from Reference Point: One club-length

The above would preclude that.

That was my question, so I would imagine that the earloier post for decision 14.2 stands

What to Do If Replaced Ball Does Not Stay on Original Spot
If the player tries to replace a ball but it does not stay on its original spot, the player must try a second time.

If the ball again does not stay on that spot, the player must replace the ball by placing it on the nearest spot where the ball will stay at rest, but with these limits depending on where the original spot is located:

The spot must not be nearer the hole.
Original Spot in General Area. The nearest spot must be in the general area.
Original Spot in Bunker or Penalty Area. The nearest spot must be either in the same bunker or in the same penalty area.
Original Spot on Putting Green. The nearest spot must be either on the putting green or in the general area.

HighLine · 02-02-2019 10:14am

This has raised its head already last night. Like I said below, it seems strange that a player can fall foul of this rule even after he backs away from the shot before re-taking up his address. Rules are rules, some will learn the hard way. This is going to be important for inter-club team (fourball/foursomes) events.

https://twitter.com/bschneid117/status/1091491560502509568

HighLine wrote: »

Yeah I agree that regarding the LPGA, having the caddies line up every shot looked ridiculous, so glad the rule came in to stop that.

One element of the rule which I think is strange/silly is the distinction between putting and all other shots. So for example, if Haotong Li above had walked away and then restarted the process of addressing the ball when the caddy was not there, there would be no penalty.

But.. for all other shots... even if the player backs away, goes back to the bag and then subsequently plays the shot when the caddy is not there, it is still a general penalty (2 strokes).

PhuckHugh2 · 02-02-2019 12:37pm

They are guaranteed to ease up on this rule the top players are having their say and they will be listened to imo. That one last night was even worse than Li's. Farcical stuff.

HighLine · 03-02-2019 1:21pm

This is turning into a mess for them.

https://twitter.com/USGA_PR/status/1091791654590271488

First Up · 03-02-2019 3:30pm

A silly and unecessary rule. It might even slow play further as the penalty doesn't apply if, after being lined up by the caddy, the player steps away and then resumes their stance.

HighLine · 03-02-2019 3:40pm

First Up wrote: »

A silly and unecessary rule. It might even slow play further as the penalty doesn't apply if, after being lined up by the caddy, the player steps away and then resumes their stance.

That's only the case for on the putting green. Fr all other shots, according to the new rule, you can not save yourself being penalized by stepping away.

I think this will be changed.

GreeBo · 03-02-2019 3:41pm

it's easy to spot when a caddy is lining someone up. None of the recent scenarios were like this. The rulings have made the game appear silly which is exactly what the changes were designed to avoid.

First Up · 03-02-2019 4:13pm

GreeBo wrote:

it's easy to spot when a caddy is lining someone up. None of the recent scenarios were like this. The rulings have made the game appear silly which is exactly what the changes were designed to avoid.

Will players call this on each other when there is no rules official or camera around?

slave1 · 03-02-2019 4:38pm

Problem here is a rule designed for the Ladies game is being enforced in the Men's game where it is simple not an issue

First Up · 03-02-2019 4:45pm

slave1 wrote:

Problem here is a rule designed for the Ladies game is being enforced in the Men's game where it is simple not an issue

Agree

GreeBo · 03-02-2019 8:31pm

slave1 wrote: »

Problem here is a rule designed for the Ladies game is being enforced in the Men's game where it is simple not an issue

disagree.
Same game so same rules.
Problem is it's a bad rule.

The rule should just state that the caddy can't assist in aiming, by trying to be so prescriptive they have backed themselves into a corner.

First Up · 03-02-2019 9:37pm

GreeBo wrote:

disagree. Same game so same rules. Problem is it's a bad rule.

But it only arose as an issue because it is widespread in the ladies game.

New R&A Rules from 1/1/19

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