Home heating automation

Irish Gunner · 04-12-2020 12:29pm

deezell wrote: »

The stove can't be controlled by the Netatmo, when you light it, the heat has to go somewhere. Is it a boiler stove? If so it will have a relay that powers the circulation pump pushing the stove water around the rads. If the rooms heat past the Netatmo temperatures, then the Netatmo won't turn on the oil/gas boiler, but it can't halt the stove heat going to the non TRV open rads. What you can do though is have the stove thermostat wired to cut the live to the Netatmo receiver relay so it doesn't fire the boiler when the stove is supplying heated water, say above 50°.
With your current setup a TRV room will not allow stove heated water through until its schedule, and then will probably fire the boiler anyway. Using the stove stat to cur the live will allow the TRVs open on their schedule but get their heated water from the stove until is dies down, whence it will revert to using the oil/gas boiler.
If your stove is not a boiler stove, you could still install a manual room stat close to the stove to detect it's heat when lit and override the Netatmo.

Not a boiler stove so not connected to any heating of rads water etc

Was looking at the Netatmo app and I can create another schedule so have one for stove and one for non stove etc

Trying to figure out if I switch between the 2 does it revert to that schedule. So if I have it on non stove heating works on that schedule then when we light the stove I change this to Stove and heating reverts to that and rads downstairs dont come on if heat is high

Have different temp sets for Comfort,Night,Comfort+ and ECO and can adjust each valve accordingly.

Only way to turn off the heat is to bring the Thermo temp down to zero but that switches everything off

Trying to get in touch with Netatmo to see if there how schedule works

deezell · 04-12-2020 12:58pm

Irish Gunner wrote: »

Not a boiler stove so not connected to any heating of rads water etc

Was looking at the Netatmo app and I can create another schedule so have one for stove and one for non stove etc

Trying to figure out if I switch between the 2 does it revert to that schedule. So if I have it on non stove heating works on that schedule then when we light the stove I change this to Stove and heating reverts to that and rads downstairs dont come on if heat is high

Have different temp sets for Comfort,Night,Comfort+ and ECO and can adjust each valve accordingly.

Only way to turn off the heat is to bring the Thermo temp down to zero but that switches everything off

Trying to get in touch with Netatmo to see if there how schedule works

At the most basic level, the Netatmo and it's TRVs will simply close if the room temperatures exceed the settings. If the room becomes uncomfortably hot it's because the stove output is too high for the room. As it's not a boiler stove its influence on other rooms is not as great, but if other rooms call the Netatmo for heat via their rad TRVs, it's essential that rads in the room with the stove are closed. If they are normal open rads they will heat as a result of a call from a TRV rad, even if the main Netatmo stat is over target temperature, so you should fit TRVs, netatmo or manual, to the stove equipped room to prevent it being heated on the double. If you already have TRVs on the stove room, you need to schedule them to keep the room below desirable temperature in anticipation of lighting the stove. Closing the rads after the room is already at target, then lighting the stove, it's always going to overheat, as depending on the stove it could have an output 4 to 10 times that of the rooms radiators.
I have a boiler inset stove in a tv room integrated with my oil boiler system, 80% of its modest output goes to the house rads, so the system works in near perfect tandem with the oil boiler. I also have a large open fire in a big lounge, no boiler. Light this baby with a mix of timber and coal and the lounge can turn into a sauna, perfect for knocking guests out on xmas day. Heat and booze, the best tranquilizer. Luckily the room has double doors, wide open it can release the heat to the rest of the house, which in turn prevents the Tado stat from kicking in. It will always be a black art to merge CH and non boiler stoves and fires

masterboy123 · 04-12-2020 1:15pm

I have done hard reset now by pressing Setup button for more than 20 seconds and constant red light was there which indicatesd reset is done. Then I had to reset the room thermostats by pressing + & - together for 20 seconds and then adding the 2 thermostats to HubR. Everything went well until this stage.

But again as soon as I connect back to my home WiFi, the HubR is no longer recognised!

I feel this system is defective. I may return and get a replacement. That's the only option I see.

Their customer service has stopped replying to my messages also at this stage. Or maybe they on to their developers. I have read reviews for the Wiser Heat app on android and it appears many people are experiencing this issue. One of the reviewer said to put the phone on Flight Mode then connecting the WiFi, I did this but no luck!

deezell wrote: »

Seems like return is the only option. Without a direct connection, other than when using the hubr as an AP to the app, there is no direct way to say reinstall firmware or allow Wiser support to Connect remotely to it. I don't see any instructions for a factory reset of the hub, except a reference to it in Drayton support that it be done only in conjunction with support, but no how to instructions. Its probably pointless, but disconnecting it and trying it out with just mains power in a different location beside the router would be my last effort before boxing up and returning. You could also go to a friend's house, just to try a different router. It's like its rejecting the network, as if it had a different one already in its memory. I cant see that attached image btw.

deezell · 04-12-2020 1:33pm

Looks like thats that. Last thing I can think of is to turn off security on your Wi-Fi, no key required. When you fill in the SSID and key in the configuration, does it check that they are correct, or will it let you proceed if you enter a deliberate error. There could be some little thing in these fields, case of a letter, or a leading space, or poxy Android autofill sticking in what it thinks you entered at the last moment. I've had this happen with an email address while trying to login, autofill banging in the wrong one.

masterboy123 · 04-12-2020 1:40pm

Yes, i have tried filling in incorrect password and it didn't connect stating incorrect password.
But I haven't tried turning off the password for home WiFi. There is no issue connecting to home WiFi. I see on routers settings that wiser.... is paired. Only issue is its enable to sustain a long term connection. Every now and then when I randomly check the Wiser App, I am successfully connected for about a minutes, and I can also change temperatures before the HubR drops connection.

deezell wrote: »

Looks like thats that. Last thing I can think of is to turn off security on your Wi-Fi, no key required. When you fill in the SSID and key in the configuration, does it check that they are correct, or will it let you proceed if you enter a deliberate error. There could be some little thing in these fields, case of a letter, or a leading space, or poxy Android autofill sticking in what it thinks you entered at the last moment. I've had this happen with an email address while trying to login, autofill banging in the wrong one.

championc · 04-12-2020 7:58pm

masterboy123 wrote: »

I have done hard reset now by pressing Setup button for more than 20 seconds and constant red light was there which indicatesd reset is done. Then I had to reset the room thermostats by pressing + & - together for 20 seconds and then adding the 2 thermostats to HubR. Everything went well until this stage.

But again as soon as I connect back to my home WiFi, the HubR is no longer recognised!

I feel this system is defective. I may return and get a replacement. That's the only option I see.

Their customer service has stopped replying to my messages also at this stage. Or maybe they on to their developers. I have read reviews for the Wiser Heat app on android and it appears many people are experiencing this issue. One of the reviewer said to put the phone on Flight Mode then connecting the WiFi, I did this but no luck!

Sorry, jumping into this thread late - Older (non-updated) wifi wouldn't be supporting WPA2-PSK, and possibly not even WPA. I wonder might it only support WEP ? Can you add a secondary SSID on the 2.4ghz band ? The other option is that it only is supporting 802.11b and g - so not 802.11n

emaherx · 04-12-2020 9:09pm

fran426ft wrote: »

I recently added temperature sensors to my HW Cylinder using a Sonoff TH-16 hacked with Tasmota. With Tasmota you can hang multiple DS18B20 sensor off the one GPIO making it easy to add multiple. I've two at the moment, one towards the top and on in the middle, a bit above the bottom of the HW heating coil. I will probably add a 3rd as I'm interested to get the temperature further towards the bottom of the tank where the solar hot water coil is. I've it reporting back to home assistant via MQTT so I can graph them up but my HW isn't zoned so when the boiler is on it always heats the water. I may get it zoned in future but I don't worry about the cylinder temperature right now. During the summer I plan to automate it so if in the morning the HW isn't hot enough from the solar panels the day before the boiler will turn on and heat the HW only enough for a shower and not the whole house. Then I may also add some checks so if the tank hasn't got to 60-65deg at any stage over a set period that it take it up to a hotter temperature to prevent legionnaires.

Like you see, the temperature towards the bottom of the heating coil drops significantly when someone has a shower.

I also replaced my old boiler controller with a sonoff running Tasmota and my thermostats with sonoffs to control zone valves for upstairs and downstairs. I've some logic running on the tasmota devices but all are integrated with homeassistant and google home so I can set up automations, monitor and control remotely etc.

It's been fun getting into the DIY home automation but it is definitely not for everyone.

Here's mine sensors are Arduino Based using mysensors.org.

I've an automation setup to heat water in the case where solar fails to heat enough. During the summer I set the immersion to boost hot water in the evening if water is not above 50 degrees by 20:00 most days it wouldn't come on and the days it does it will only be for a few min.

In the winter I set immersion and boiler to heat water before I get up for work.

deezell · 04-12-2020 9:41pm

championc wrote: »

Sorry, jumping into this thread late - Older (non-updated) wifi wouldn't be supporting WPA2-PSK, and possibly not even WPA. I wonder might it only support WEP ? Can you add a secondary SSID on the 2.4ghz band ? The other option is that it only is supporting 802.11b and g - so not 802.11n

He has WPA2-PSK on his router, it is connecting intermittently, then dropping. It"s unlikely to be signal strength, 5m with a wall between devices. Trying it with a clear channel, or with a different AP didn't work eirher, it would be hard to blame the router at this stage, unless there's an option in the app config that is being overlooked, but then you'd expect simply no connection. It's unlikely the hub expects anything more than a basic Wi-Fi bandwidth, its not exactly streaming video, so it wouldn't require the higher band or higher data rates. Router would need to be ancient to only deliver a or b.. A clincher would be to try it on a completely different brand of router, and if it fails, its the hub. It's already failed on a Wi-Fi hot spot.

championc · 04-12-2020 10:17pm

deezell wrote: »

He has WPA2-PSK on his router, it is connecting intermittently, then dropping. It"s unlikely to be signal strength, 5m with a wall between devices. Trying it with a clear channel, or with a different AP didn't work eirher, it would be hard to blame the router at this stage, unless there's an option in the app config that is being overlooked, but then you'd expect simply no connection. It's unlikely the hub expects anything more than a basic Wi-Fi bandwidth, its not exactly streaming video, so it wouldn't require the higher band or higher data rates. Router would need to be ancient to only deliver a or b.. A clincher would be to try it on a completely different brand of router, and if it fails, its the hub. It's already failed on a Wi-Fi hot spot.

It's certainly not a signal strength issue. But I was merely suggesting the older standards from a compatability point of view.

The speed will handshake first before the WPA2 4 way handshake. If the device initially "appears" to connect, it would therefore imply that the 802.11 modes are fine, and that the connection is potentially breaking down during the WPA2 handshake.

Unfortunately, I think most recent versions of Android only support WPA2 for Wifi Hotspot implementation, so changing the mode on the router to test may be the only option.

grogi · 04-12-2020 10:20pm

championc wrote: »

It's certainly not a signal strength issue. But I was merely suggesting the older standards from a compatability point of view.

The speed will handshake first before the WPA2 4 way handshake. If the device initially "appears" to connect, it would therefore imply that the 802.11 modes are fine, and that the connection is potentially breaking down during the WPA2 handshake.

Unfortunately, I think most recent versions of Android only support WPA2 for Wifi Hotspot implementation, so changing the mode on the router to test may be the only option.

WPA is around since I have wireless devices. And that is a very long time...

masterboy123 · 04-12-2020 10:32pm

Thanks for looking into my issue.
Deezel has been extremely helpful.

I have WPA2-PSK supported SSID. I have even set the channel to 6.

At present I have a 5ghz SSID and 2.4Ghz SSID (different names). Is it possible to add another SSID at 2.4Ghz?

Also, please note when I change temperature using room thermostat and then open the Wiser App, it seems to be connected to home WiFi network and shows all the correct info, for example, boost has been turned on etc.
Thanks

championc wrote: »

Sorry, jumping into this thread late - Older (non-updated) wifi wouldn't be supporting WPA2-PSK, and possibly not even WPA. I wonder might it only support WEP ? Can you add a secondary SSID on the 2.4ghz band ? The other option is that it only is supporting 802.11b and g - so not 802.11n

grogi · 04-12-2020 11:47pm

masterboy123 wrote: »

At present I have a 5ghz SSID and 2.4Ghz SSID (different names). Is it possible to add another SSID at 2.4Ghz?

It all depends on the hardware you have. Some AP will allow it, others won't.

deezell · 04-12-2020 11:50pm

Again, it's unlikely that that the router has a buggy WPA2 module, it would fail for every other encrypted device. Fwiw you could try manually limiting your Wi-Fi standard in the router to 802.1b,g and try that. If the transmission layer in the hub is off spec, it might stay connected with a slower Wi-Fi connection, but thats not a fix, just clutching at straws. Have you any repeaters operating on your Wi-Fi? I had endless trouble with these causing drop out on an outdoor camera, my mobile, and a chromecast audio device. Also a networked printer. I concluded that some devices were hopping from one to the other, which was the idea of the mode they operated in, but something broke in the handover, and I would have to unplug the repeater. The camera was always flaky, and still to this day will drop, requiring a cold start. (trip power to the garage sockets for half a minute). Another issue I had was a device with a fixed ip address, which was not defined in the router, which somehow would reallocate it to another transient device on power up, causing conflict and eventual disconnect of the fixed ip device.
Most routers allow additional guest mode SSID, with restricted rights and configurable data limits.

masterboy123 · 05-12-2020 11:06am

Morning all,

So I was able to have another new named SSID at 2.4Ghz. Turned off the HubR from the main power supply for a minute. Restarted HubR and connected to this newly made SSID which has no connections. Again, no luck.

Drayton has emailed me and they have checked my HubR using the unique MAC address. They are saying connection is very poor and recommending a WiFi extender now. So I am going to borrow a fiends TP link WiFi extender this evening and follow the recommendations made by Drayton.

I will update you guys after trial with WiFi extender.

deezell · 05-12-2020 9:35pm

Good luck. Last suggestion, If you rig up a two wire mains connection with a 3 pin plug to the hub, and disconnect temporarily from it's current location, power it up near the router and see does it connect, (it wont 'know' that it's not yet wired to the zone valves). If it does work nearer the router, you might then be able to extend the three valve connection wires to it, bring the mountain to Mohamed etc.

masterboy123 · 05-12-2020 10:08pm

Unfortunately I couldn't get hold on a WiFi extender.

Do you recommend I order one from Amazon and give it a try?

Regarding your suggestion below, I feel I am not competent enough to do it. Did you mean to buy an empty 3 pin socket and connect live and neutral wire to it? And then plug that 3 pin plug to a power source?

deezell wrote: »

Good luck. Last suggestion, If you rig up a two wire mains connection with a 3 pin plug to the hub, and disconnect temporarily from it's current location, power it up near the router and see does it connect, (it wont 'know' that it's not yet wired to the zone valves). If it does work nearer the router, you might then be able to extend the three valve connection wires to it, bring the mountain to Mohamed etc.

deezell · 05-12-2020 10:16pm

masterboy123 wrote: »

Unfortunately I couldn't get hold on a WiFi extender.

Do you recommend I order one from Amazon and give it a try?

Regarding your suggestion below, I feel I am not competent enough to do it. Did you mean to buy an empty 3 pin socket and connect live and neutral wire to it? And then plug that 3 pin plug to a power source?

Yes, or if you have an old appliance or lamp with a plug and a metre of wire, cut it off and wire the L and N brown and blue to the hubr after disconnecting and removing it. just plug it in then somewhere near the router, and go through the config. That will test if the router is in need of a stronger signal. The hubr wont know if the 3 valve wires are not connected. It if still fails then it's not a signal strength problem.
If you didn't install this yourself, you could ask someone to do it, its simple enough wiring.

masterboy123 · 05-12-2020 11:15pm

I did install the Drayton Wiser 3 Channel with your help and advice. But I don't have access to an old appliance with 3 pin plug.

But it's not a signal strength issue. I have used WiFiMan app and please see attached screenshot highlighting good signals.
I have emailed Drayton also because I am not sure if it's going to make any difference with WiFi extender.

Thank you

deezell wrote: »

Yes, or if you have an old appliance or lamp with a plug and a metre of wire, cut it off and wire the L and N brown and blue to the hubr after disconnecting and removing it. just plug it in then somewhere near the router, and go through the config. That will test if the router is in need of a stronger signal. The hubr wont know if the 3 valve wires are not connected. It if still fails then it's not a signal strength problem.
If you didn't install this yourself, you could ask someone to do it, its simple enough wiring.

deezell · 06-12-2020 12:02am

With that level of signal outside, yet they're saying that the hub is showing poor signal level, You would be inclined to think it was an antenna or receiver issue inside the hub, but you had no connection problem from your mobile when the hub was in AP mode, granted you were probably standing right beside it when configuring. I wonder would you lose app connection if you moved the same distance from it as the router, try configuration standing beside the router. Buy a 3 pin plug and a metre of twin flex if you want to try my last, and it is my last, suggestion, just to see if the hub needs a stronger than normal signal to function. After that, maybe a booster in the press beside it.

Type 901 · 06-12-2020 2:20pm

Starting install on Tado looking to get clarity on the extension kit vs wireless receiver differences. I have bought two wired starter kits (2 TRV included one) to replace the current wall stats and control zone valves. But also bought the wireless starter kit so I would have the wireless receiver for HW zone valve control at the boiler (was going to sell wireless stat/bridge etc as not needed). But now looking at the s plan install wiring guides it might be the extension kit I needed? Had assumed, wrongly, they were the same thing. Anyone shed some light?

deezell · 06-12-2020 2:48pm

You should have bought wireless starter with HW kit, I recall it was in that sale list for a few quid more, but it wasn't particularly clear that there was a difference. Not surprising, as far as the Irish/UK market was concerned, there only ever was one ext kit type, with CH and HW relays (switchable to volt free CH only). I've only lately seen this version of the wireless ext. kit which only has a CH relay, during the sale, and on other euro Tado sites , as they don't use HW tanks in Europe for the most part, just direct from boiler HW.
Doesn't solve your problem, unless you return the entire kit for a refund, but then you lose the sale price you probably nabbed it at. Perhaps just buy the ext. Kit only and package up all the leftovers and sell it on.

Type 901 · 06-12-2020 3:27pm

This is the kit I bought, was the more expensive one. The wireless receiver does seem to have CH and HW control but doesn't use the standard backplate. Diagram attached.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/tado%C2%B0-Wireless-Thermostat-Starter-Assistant/dp/B08LP1LS5T

This was the cheaper one which I assume has the standard backing plate. And one I should have got?

https://www.amazon.co.uk/tado%C2%B0-Thermostat-Extension-Wireless-Receiver/dp/B07VXBMC14/ref=mp_s_a_1_3?dchild=1&keywords=tado+hot+water&qid=1607264459&sr=8-3

deezell · 06-12-2020 3:52pm

Type 901 wrote: »

This is the kit I bought, was the more expensive one. The wireless receiver does seem to have CH and HW control but doesn't use the standard backplate. Diagram attached.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/tado%C2%B0-Wireless-Thermostat-Starter-Assistant/dp/B08LP1LS5T

This was the cheaper one which I assume has the standard backing plate. And one I should have got?

https://www.amazon.co.uk/tado%C2%B0-Thermostat-Extension-Wireless-Receiver/dp/B07VXBMC14/ref=mp_s_a_1_3?dchild=1&keywords=tado+hot+water&qid=1607264459&sr=8-3

They're just links to the ads, no backplates diagrams shown. Can you show us backplate image and the back pins image of the one you received

Type 901 · 06-12-2020 4:12pm

deezell wrote: »

They're just links to the ads, no backplates diagrams shown. Can you show us backplate image and the back pins image of the one you received

Photo attached - all wires go direct to unit and then just cover clips on. Rather backing plate used that I've seen in the extension kits.

deezell · 06-12-2020 4:19pm

Type 901 wrote: »

Photo attached - all wires go direct to unit and then just cover clips on. Rather backing plate used that I've seen in the extension kits.

It's a more versatile kit though, both relays are volt free, on a par with nest. It can facilitate priorty wiring

mrcheez · 06-12-2020 4:20pm

Not sure if this might interest any of ye, but I recently "smartified" my standard 2-zone heating controls by adding 2 Switchbots which push the "turn on heating for 1 hour" button via Alexa

Nice and cheap solution and works a charm, plus can still get access to the control panel as the door opens and closes with the Switchbot attached.

Type 901 · 06-12-2020 4:55pm

deezell wrote: »

It's a more versatile kit though, both relays are volt free, on a par with nest. It can facilitate priorty wiring

So would be good for my setup although wouldn't be using volt free/priority calls?

Just need to finalise the wire up, as currently I don't think right after a new boiler and basic single programmer was put in. Bit of a mess there and need to confirm wires are right.

Would the below look right for 3 zone?

Gas Boiler cable - Blue to N, Brown to L, Black to CH NO
Patch wire L to CH COM
Patch wire CH COM to HW COM
2 Brown from zone valves (1&2) to CH NO
1 blue from HW valve/cylinder stat to HW NO

deezell · 07-12-2020 12:41am

From your October post, you have a 3 zone system, 3 valves, 2 CH stats and a HW stat, all running off one mechanical timer? If so, you only need to wire your two new stats in place of the old ones, bring the power to the HW valve from the ext kit HW NO, via the cylinder stat, (with ext kit live looped to HW Com.) Short the old timer relay in out live wires. Or leave it on permanently.
The three valves should have permanent live in to their relay Com terminal, and the SL outs of the relays NO terminals are joined and sent to fire the boiler, (from the valve, Orange and Grey wires respectively, sometimes reversed).
Its possible this latter step was not done in your system, and the boiler was fired directly from the single timer, with the stats just opening their respective valves, the valve relays unused. This setup would mean the boiler firing even when all 3 valves were closed. Have another look at your system, listing wire colours is of little help if you don't post images, but you don"t need to use the wireless stat output on the ext kit, unless you want to, in which case it goes to the motor of that stat's zone valve, usually a brown wire, but not directly to the boiler SL firing terminal, as this is the task of the zone valve relays. Crossing the output lives of stats directly at the boiler to outputs derived from zone valve relays will result in crossed zones, HW opening CH1 and so on.

deezell · 07-12-2020 12:55am

2 zone S plan. Duplicate the CH wiring for 3 zone, with permanent live to the room stats as timing is performed in the Tado statd, not at the controller shown. Also Tado stats don't require the neutral blue wire shown.

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crighton · 07-12-2020 2:21pm

General warning -

Just had our 2nd Netatmo break in 18mths, this time is simply stopped working. The unit is apprx 1 year old.

Previous time it burnt out posing a fire risk [Energia said they sent that unit for tech review but were unable to confirm what caused it].

A few things to be aware of and to note:
The independent boiler service guy this time said many of his callouts are currently replacing broken Netatmo units.
The Energia-Netatmo service people appear either untrained or lack expertise in fitting etc.
He said Energia has been operating a questionable promotion where they offer you a deal on Energia-Netatmo fit out when in fact they are clawing back & profiting of your 250 euro gov subsidy without you being aware of your eligibility.

deezell · 07-12-2020 5:22pm

crighton wrote: »

General warning....
.....He said Energia has been operating a questionable promotion where they offer you a deal on Energia-Netatmo fit out when in fact they are clawing back & profiting of your 250 euro gov subsidy without you being aware of your eligibility.

I've being saying this for ages. If you then try to get a grant for a real zoning or heating improvement, your grant is gone. If you get a free Netatmo installed, thats probably fair value if you dont pay anything, but some utilities are installing junk and claiming wonderous energy efficiency improvements based on theoretical statistical models, not your actual install. There are cases where they stuck in a single rubbish stat in place of of two zoned manual stats, de-zoning the clients home and upping his heat bill.

Type 901 · 07-12-2020 5:32pm

deezell wrote: »

From your October post, you have a 3 zone system, 3 valves, 2 CH stats and a HW stat, all running off one mechanical timer? If so, you only need to wire your two new stats in place of the old ones, bring the power to the HW valve from the ext kit HW NO, via the cylinder stat, (with ext kit live looped to HW Com.) Short the old timer relay in out live wires. Or leave it on permanently.

That was right but got a new boiler and they put in a simple on/off/boost digital timer but don't think this it was wired the same as before. Previously could leave constant on and boiler seemed to fire when wall stat/HW stat needed heat - as far as I could see. Now when constant on the boiler still fires when all valves closed.

Have attached photo of the current wall timer wiring. As far as I can see locations are filled as -

N - fused mains live
L - fused main and boiler neutral
1 - boiler live
2 - empty
3 - Boiler heat live return and brown wire (? - assume from valve terminal)

deezell wrote: »

Its possible this latter step was not done in your system, and the boiler was fired directly from the single timer, with the stats just opening their respective valves, the valve relays unused. This setup would mean the boiler firing even when all 3 valves were closed. Have another look at your system, listing wire colours is of little help if you don't post images,..

Have looked at the HW Stat/Valve and Zone Valves terminal blocks - mapping looks as below. Grey/Orange don't seem to be used, so looks that relays where not used - can see cut in HW terminal block image. There is two unused 4-core cables running from zone valve terminal box to boiler timer I think which could be used if not wired right.

HW Stat and Valve terminal block
Wiring from|1|2|3|4
Stat|Black|Brown| |Y/G
Valve|Brown| |Blue |
Zone valves block||Brown|Blue |Y/G

Zone Valves terminal block
Wiring from|1|2|3|4|5
HW Valve/Stat|Y&G|Blue |Brown | |
Zone 1 valve| |Blue | |Brown|
Zone 2 valve| |Blue | | |Brown

Need to clarify where the wires out of the zone valves terminal block are combining/going as not clear yet

deezell · 07-12-2020 5:57pm

Type 901 wrote: »

That was right but got a new boiler and they put in a simple on/off/boost digital timer but don't think this it was wired the same as before. Previously could leave constant on and boiler seemed to fire when wall stat/HW stat needed heat - as far as I could see. Now when constant on the boiler still fires when all valves closed.

Have attached photo of the current wall timer wiring. As far as I can see locations are filled as -

N - fused mains live
L - fused main and boiler neutral
1 - boiler live
2 - empty
3 - Boiler heat live return and brown wire (? - assume from valve terminal)

Have looked at the HW Stat/Valve and Zone Valves terminal blocks - mapping looks as below. Grey/Orange don't seem to be used, so looks that relays where not used - can see cut in HW terminal block image. There is two 4-core cables running from zone valve terminals to boiler timer I think which could be used if not wired right.

HW Stat and Valve terminal block
Wiring from|1|2|3|4
Stat|Black|Brown| |Y/G
Valve|Brown| |Blue |
Zone valves block||Brown|Blue |Y/G

Zone Valves terminal block
Wiring from|1|2|3|4|5
HW Valve/Stat|Y&G|Blue |Brown | |
Zone 1 valve| |Blue | |Brown|
Zone 2 valve| |Blue | | |Brown

Its likely the zone valve relays were never used, or were cut out when the last bit of work was done. Grey/Orange valve relay contact wires are there from the HW valve, I can't see the cut ends of the CH valve cables in the other photo, they could be there cut off also, though it's possible that those valves have no relay. Check if this is so, if the CH valves are different from the HW valve . It's really not acceptable that a new boiler install would not include an S plan wire up, but instead just a bodge on your previous wiring. The valves are there, the relays most likely are there on all of them. If you want an easy life, and a diy rewire, get a Lex box like this, to wire all stats, valves, boiler, pump and other bits to. Worth every penny
https://www.systemlink.ie/systemlex.html

John mac · 07-12-2020 8:22pm

Type 901 wrote: »

Have attached photo of the current wall timer wiring. As far as I can see locations are filled as -

could be im wrong

, but is N = Neutral = Blue
L=Live= Brown . ?

masterboy123 · 07-12-2020 11:28pm

Hello All,

I have successfully connected to Wiser Heating system and its working 100%

A special thanks to Deezell and Championc for going beyond the limits to help me out.

So the issue is with Huawei routers which doesn't have a stable connection with Wiser. The customer service agent from Wiser has highlighted this to me and advised to get a WiFi Extender (from any other brand), therefore I bought TP Link Wi-Fi extender today and it worked within seconds. Happy days

Attached is a screenshot from Wiser app

deezell · 07-12-2020 11:55pm

John mac wrote: »

could be im wrong

, but is N = Neutral = Blue
L=Live= Brown . ?

They couldn't even get that right. But assuming the timer terminals are volt free, then the relay outputs are supplied by a llink from the live in, (Brown wire to 1), so at least they relay is switching a live source, as L and N only power the timer clock. I see a cut end of what appears to be a grey cable underneath the muddle of wires.

deezell · 08-12-2020 12:00am

masterboy123 wrote: »

Hello All,

I have successfully connected to Wiser Heating system and its working 100%

A special thanks to Deezell and Championc for going beyond the limits to help me out.

So the issue is with Huawei routers which doesn't have a stable connection with Wiser. The customer service agent from Wiser has highlighted this to me and advised to get a WiFi Extender (from any other brand), therefore I bought TP Link Wi-Fi extender today and it worked within seconds. Happy days

Attached is a screenshot from Wiser app

Huawei router? Hmm, maybe Trump was right, they're interrupting your heating to spy on your energy use, and thus disrupt the political order. Crafty Bs.

Type 901 · 08-12-2020 1:37pm

deezell wrote: »

Its likely the zone valve relays were never used, or were cut out when the last bit of work was done. Grey/Orange valve relay contact wires are there from the HW valve, I can't see the cut ends of the CH valve cables in the other photo, they could be there cut off also, though it's possible that those valves have no relay. Check if this is so, if the CH valves are different from the HW valve . It's really not acceptable that a new boiler install would not include an S plan wire up, but instead just a bodge on your previous wiring. The valves are there, the relays most likely are there on all of them. If you want an easy life, and a diy rewire, get a Lex box like this, to wire all stats, valves, boiler, pump and other bits to. Worth every penny

Thanks having a look! So have confirmed all valves have grey/orange wires and they are Danfoss type hpa2 valves.

In fairness to RGI it was just a straight gas boiler replacement requested. Only in the house this year and how I though the heating was working before the installation was completely wrong based on what found now! Looks that the valve signal wires were never wired in at all previously. But there are two cables (2 core and earth) and one core from another cable unused routed from the valve terminal block by HW tank to the boiler timer from time of house build. You spotted these in the timer picture but have put up clearer image. Likely were meant to be used for the valve signal live?

Question now is could I just use these to take the grey or orange from the valves down to the boiler timer when installing the extension kit? Of course colours won't be correct but can label to reflect.

deezell · 08-12-2020 2:38pm

Type 901 wrote: »

Thanks having a look! So....
....Question now is could I just use these to take the grey or orange from the valves down to the boiler timer when installing the extension kit? Of course colours won't be correct but can label to reflect.

You'll need to wire up appropriately as per the s plan image I posted, with an extra CH zone. The ext kit can open the HW valve, and optionally one of the CH valves wirelessly from one Tado stat. Wiring the two Tado stats in place of the old stats would be the easiest option as these are already wired to open the CH valves. ALL firing of the boiler must come only from the valve relays, with permanent live to one of all relay contacts, say, all the Grey, and a combination of the other contacts, all the Orange, to the boiler. This is required to insure there is no crossing of zone calls, with a call from one zone unintentionally opening the valve of another zone.
Did you day the original wiring was in a NEW house? They saved about €50 by bodging the wiring with a cheap timer instead of a 3 zone timer, and dodgeing the zone relays. Wiring centres are a joke also, big clumps of connector strips. I don't know how an engineer can sign off on a DIY install like that.

Type 901 · 08-12-2020 3:20pm

deezell wrote:

You'll need to wire up appropriately as per the s plan image I posted, with an extra CH zone. … . Wiring the two Tado stats in place of the old stats would be the easiest option as these are already wired to open the CH valves. ALL firing of the boiler must come only from the valve relays, with permanent live to one of all relay contacts, say, all the Grey, and a combination of the other contacts, all the Orange, to the boiler. This is required to insure there is no crossing of zone calls, with a call from one zone unintentionally opening the valve of another zone.

Yes plan is to replace existing wall stats with wired tado stats. Will start planning out the wiring based on above and s plan provided.

deezell wrote:

Did you day the original wiring was in a NEW house? They saved about €50 by bodging the wiring with a cheap timer instead of a 3 zone timer, and dodgeing the zone relays. Wiring centres are a joke also, big clumps of connector strips. I don't know how an engineer can sign off on a DIY install like that.

Well new to me, house was built in early 2000s so looks like celtic tiger building shortcuts/bodges were made! Going to see about drawing/planning out the wiring to correct but given the current state it might be better to get a sparks with good zone heating knowledge to rectify and put in proper wiring centre.

deezell · 08-12-2020 6:32pm

At least its just wiring, actual plumbing is done.

championc · 09-12-2020 12:21am

It's not often you'd think you'd say that you can't wait for the next gas bill to come, but I am seriously interested in the impact of my Tado TRV's.

While Tado reckoned I'd saved only 1.8% in November, that would only be savings made by Tado itself with it's Geofencing or open window detection. What I am more interested in is the savings made by leaving rooms freezing cold when previously they would have been heated as part of downstairs or whole house heating. In addition, rooms are definitely more level in temperature during the evening. And overall, with absolutely nothing to base it on, but I feel that the weather this year at present is colder than last year.

ted1 · 09-12-2020 12:54am

crighton wrote: »

General warning -

Just had our 2nd Netatmo break in 18mths, this time is simply stopped working. The unit is apprx 1 year old.

Previous time it burnt out posing a fire risk [Energia said they sent that unit for tech review but were unable to confirm what caused it].

A few things to be aware of and to note:
The independent boiler service guy this time said many of his callouts are currently replacing broken Netatmo units.
The Energia-Netatmo service people appear either untrained or lack expertise in fitting etc.
He said Energia has been operating a questionable promotion where they offer you a deal on Energia-Netatmo fit out when in fact they are clawing back & profiting of your 250 euro gov subsidy without you being aware of your eligibility.

They are not the only ones, the worse ones are Hub controller

Alkers · 09-12-2020 11:07am

championc wrote: »

It's not often you'd think you'd say that you can't wait for the next gas bill to come, but I am seriously interested in the impact of my Tado TRV's.

While Tado reckoned I'd saved only 1.8% in November, that would only be savings made by Tado itself with it's Geofencing or open window detection. What I am more interested in is the savings made by leaving rooms freezing cold when previously they would have been heated as part of downstairs or whole house heating. In addition, rooms are definitely more level in temperature during the evening. And overall, with absolutely nothing to base it on, but I feel that the weather this year at present is colder than last year.

Do you unoccupied rooms with no heating? Is there not a min recommended? I have mine at 12c just chose that at random.

ted1 · 09-12-2020 11:16am

Alkers wrote: »

Do you unoccupied rooms with no heating? Is there not a min recommended? I have mine at 12c just chose that at random.

how insulated are the doors, floors and internal walls?

Alkers · 09-12-2020 11:54am

ted1 wrote: »

how insulated are the doors, floors and internal walls?

The house itself is terraced, external walls are solid block with 100mm EWI, downstairs is a suspended timber floor but the EWI runs down beneath the floor level, internal walls aren't insulated as far as I'm aware and internal doors are solid timber.

Bluefoam · 09-12-2020 1:35pm

crighton wrote: »

General warning -

Just had our 2nd Netatmo break in 18mths, this time is simply stopped working. The unit is apprx 1 year old.

Previous time it burnt out posing a fire risk [Energia said they sent that unit for tech review but were unable to confirm what caused it].

A few things to be aware of and to note:
The independent boiler service guy this time said many of his callouts are currently replacing broken Netatmo units.
The Energia-Netatmo service people appear either untrained or lack expertise in fitting etc.
He said Energia has been operating a questionable promotion where they offer you a deal on Energia-Netatmo fit out when in fact they are clawing back & profiting of your 250 euro gov subsidy without you being aware of your eligibility.

How much are Energia charging? Electric Ireland just insatlled a Nest Thermostat for me for €130... retail price is usually €250 which doesn't include installation, so their offer is quite good & yes they are using the grant system to subsidise the cost. Even better because they gave me a €350 joining bonus & allowed me to pay for the Thermostat out of that. I have two Nests in the house, 2 zones plus hot water and am very happy with it.

THe fitter mentioned to me that he believes the grants will be stopped. So subsidised Thermostats may not be offered in future by the energy companies.

deezell · 09-12-2020 2:56pm

Bluefoam wrote: »

How much are Energia charging?....
....THe fitter mentioned to me that he believes the grants will be stopped. So subsidised Thermostats may not be offered in future by the energy companies.

Sadly, he may be right, because of utilities fitting junk stats in a pretence that they're saving energy. No additional zones, away mode, reference to outside temperature, learning, or any if the features that distinguishes smart stats. The nest deal is use of your grant/incentive if you get it cost free, given that I've seen quotes for a grand for a single Nest supply and install.
Wasn't there a recent criticism of the poor value for money of enegy efficiency measures in the media?
The grant for heating controls is/was €700 afaik, a lot more than €250, but I think this requires zoning, at least independent CH and HW. I think the other payment is a different EU efficiency measure, self regulated by the utilities.
Heres the grant tables, from this heavy duty document.
"Spending Review 2020
Grant Schemes for Energy Efficiency: Better
Energy Homes and Better Energy
Communities"
https://assets.gov.ie/94936/5a0c630e-0d41-49a8-806f-8901b80daf48.pdf

ted1 · 09-12-2020 3:14pm

They use the EEOS scheme aswell.

https://www.seai.ie/business-and-public-sector/business-grants-and-supports/energy-efficiency-obligation-scheme/

deezell · 09-12-2020 3:18pm

ted1 wrote: »

They use the EEOS scheme aswell.

https://www.seai.ie/business-and-public-sector/business-grants-and-supports/energy-efficiency-obligation-scheme/

Thats the one.

Home heating automation

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