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Home heating automation

[Deleted User]

Just starting to look into this now though probably wont be purchasing for a while unless a bargain pops up.

I know there are a number of options out there for this but many like the Nest for example appear to be mostly based around running automatically depending on temp etc or learning your usage.

What I want to know is which one is best to use like a traditional timer? I'd want to set a schedule for heating and water to come on and off and also boost it if I felt like it. Learning my usage or using the thermostat to turn on/off the heating is not something I would really use.

I do want to be able to boost the heat and water remotely so the place is warm before arriving home and have a nice interface for setting timers using an app as we change around our water and heating timing quite often and its a pain having to do this using the poor user interfaces and controls on a traditional heating timer.

I'm assuming they can all be used in this way but I wonder if any device in particular is more geared towards this type of usage?

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raytaxi

My existing system is the last one and zone one is hot water, just need to run cable to Stat on cylinder then between 6 on each board. So that when water is at heat it opens and goes off ? The stat you have pictured can the probe go into a cylinder pocket as mines fully insulated and has 3 pockets for stats.

deezell

In fact here's the wiring for the wireless 3 channel controller. Yours may be exactly like this, channel 1 is not specifically labelled for HW, but assuming it is linked to the cylinder stat, they use terminal 6 to route the HW ON to the HW valve.

deezell

raytaxi wrote: »

would I be right that its this box I need to change wiring in ?Attachment not found.
rather than behind the wiser

Yes, here is a diagram for the EPH wiring centre.

On this the HW ON comes in on 4 and out to the stat, back on 7 and out to the HW valve. On yours the HW ON will come in and go straight out to the HW valve. It may be linked over two terminals or just use a single terminal. You need to connect the two wires from your insert stat (one like this) to interrupt the HW ON from Wiser to HW valve.
Firebird-Single-Control-Stat-542562-ACC000OHS-Reverse-View-Photo.jpg

Firebird-Single-Control-Stat-542562-ACC000OHS-Reverse-View-Photo.jpg

raytaxi

grogi wrote: »

Assuming you have S-Plan connectivity, in the junction box you probably have a jumper from 6 to 8, which would need to be disconnected and two core wire attached that woould terminate at the stat.

would I be right that its this box I need to change wiring in ?Attachment not found.
rather than behind the wiser

deezell

ted1 wrote: »

They use the EEOS scheme aswell.

https://www.seai.ie/business-and-public-sector/business-grants-and-supports/energy-efficiency-obligation-scheme/

Thats the one.

ted1

They use the EEOS scheme aswell.

https://www.seai.ie/business-and-public-sector/business-grants-and-supports/energy-efficiency-obligation-scheme/

deezell

Bluefoam wrote: »

How much are Energia charging?....
....THe fitter mentioned to me that he believes the grants will be stopped. So subsidised Thermostats may not be offered in future by the energy companies.

Sadly, he may be right, because of utilities fitting junk stats in a pretence that they're saving energy. No additional zones, away mode, reference to outside temperature, learning, or any if the features that distinguishes smart stats. The nest deal is use of your grant/incentive if you get it cost free, given that I've seen quotes for a grand for a single Nest supply and install.
Wasn't there a recent criticism of the poor value for money of enegy efficiency measures in the media?
The grant for heating controls is/was €700 afaik, a lot more than €250, but I think this requires zoning, at least independent CH and HW. I think the other payment is a different EU efficiency measure, self regulated by the utilities.
Heres the grant tables, from this heavy duty document.
"Spending Review 2020
Grant Schemes for Energy Efficiency: Better
Energy Homes and Better Energy
Communities"
https://assets.gov.ie/94936/5a0c630e-0d41-49a8-806f-8901b80daf48.pdf

Bluefoam

crighton wrote: »

General warning -

Just had our 2nd Netatmo break in 18mths, this time is simply stopped working. The unit is apprx 1 year old.

Previous time it burnt out posing a fire risk [Energia said they sent that unit for tech review but were unable to confirm what caused it].

A few things to be aware of and to note:
The independent boiler service guy this time said many of his callouts are currently replacing broken Netatmo units.
The Energia-Netatmo service people appear either untrained or lack expertise in fitting etc.
He said Energia has been operating a questionable promotion where they offer you a deal on Energia-Netatmo fit out when in fact they are clawing back & profiting of your 250 euro gov subsidy without you being aware of your eligibility.

How much are Energia charging? Electric Ireland just insatlled a Nest Thermostat for me for €130... retail price is usually €250 which doesn't include installation, so their offer is quite good & yes they are using the grant system to subsidise the cost. Even better because they gave me a €350 joining bonus & allowed me to pay for the Thermostat out of that. I have two Nests in the house, 2 zones plus hot water and am very happy with it.

THe fitter mentioned to me that he believes the grants will be stopped. So subsidised Thermostats may not be offered in future by the energy companies.

Alkers

ted1 wrote: »

how insulated are the doors, floors and internal walls?

The house itself is terraced, external walls are solid block with 100mm EWI, downstairs is a suspended timber floor but the EWI runs down beneath the floor level, internal walls aren't insulated as far as I'm aware and internal doors are solid timber.

ted1

Alkers wrote: »

Do you unoccupied rooms with no heating? Is there not a min recommended? I have mine at 12c just chose that at random.

how insulated are the doors, floors and internal walls?

Alkers

championc wrote: »

It's not often you'd think you'd say that you can't wait for the next gas bill to come, but I am seriously interested in the impact of my Tado TRV's.

While Tado reckoned I'd saved only 1.8% in November, that would only be savings made by Tado itself with it's Geofencing or open window detection. What I am more interested in is the savings made by leaving rooms freezing cold when previously they would have been heated as part of downstairs or whole house heating. In addition, rooms are definitely more level in temperature during the evening. And overall, with absolutely nothing to base it on, but I feel that the weather this year at present is colder than last year.

Do you unoccupied rooms with no heating? Is there not a min recommended? I have mine at 12c just chose that at random.

ted1

crighton wrote: »

General warning -

Just had our 2nd Netatmo break in 18mths, this time is simply stopped working. The unit is apprx 1 year old.

Previous time it burnt out posing a fire risk [Energia said they sent that unit for tech review but were unable to confirm what caused it].

A few things to be aware of and to note:
The independent boiler service guy this time said many of his callouts are currently replacing broken Netatmo units.
The Energia-Netatmo service people appear either untrained or lack expertise in fitting etc.
He said Energia has been operating a questionable promotion where they offer you a deal on Energia-Netatmo fit out when in fact they are clawing back & profiting of your 250 euro gov subsidy without you being aware of your eligibility.

They are not the only ones, the worse ones are Hub controller

championc

It's not often you'd think you'd say that you can't wait for the next gas bill to come, but I am seriously interested in the impact of my Tado TRV's.

While Tado reckoned I'd saved only 1.8% in November, that would only be savings made by Tado itself with it's Geofencing or open window detection. What I am more interested in is the savings made by leaving rooms freezing cold when previously they would have been heated as part of downstairs or whole house heating. In addition, rooms are definitely more level in temperature during the evening. And overall, with absolutely nothing to base it on, but I feel that the weather this year at present is colder than last year.

deezell

At least its just wiring, actual plumbing is done.

Type 901

deezell wrote:

You'll need to wire up appropriately as per the s plan image I posted, with an extra CH zone. … . Wiring the two Tado stats in place of the old stats would be the easiest option as these are already wired to open the CH valves. ALL firing of the boiler must come only from the valve relays, with permanent live to one of all relay contacts, say, all the Grey, and a combination of the other contacts, all the Orange, to the boiler. This is required to insure there is no crossing of zone calls, with a call from one zone unintentionally opening the valve of another zone.

Yes plan is to replace existing wall stats with wired tado stats. Will start planning out the wiring based on above and s plan provided.

deezell wrote:

Did you day the original wiring was in a NEW house? They saved about €50 by bodging the wiring with a cheap timer instead of a 3 zone timer, and dodgeing the zone relays. Wiring centres are a joke also, big clumps of connector strips. I don't know how an engineer can sign off on a DIY install like that.

Well new to me, house was built in early 2000s so looks like celtic tiger building shortcuts/bodges were made! Going to see about drawing/planning out the wiring to correct but given the current state it might be better to get a sparks with good zone heating knowledge to rectify and put in proper wiring centre.

deezell

Type 901 wrote: »

Thanks having a look! So....
....Question now is could I just use these to take the grey or orange from the valves down to the boiler timer when installing the extension kit? Of course colours won't be correct but can label to reflect.

You'll need to wire up appropriately as per the s plan image I posted, with an extra CH zone. The ext kit can open the HW valve, and optionally one of the CH valves wirelessly from one Tado stat. Wiring the two Tado stats in place of the old stats would be the easiest option as these are already wired to open the CH valves. ALL firing of the boiler must come only from the valve relays, with permanent live to one of all relay contacts, say, all the Grey, and a combination of the other contacts, all the Orange, to the boiler. This is required to insure there is no crossing of zone calls, with a call from one zone unintentionally opening the valve of another zone.
Did you day the original wiring was in a NEW house? They saved about €50 by bodging the wiring with a cheap timer instead of a 3 zone timer, and dodgeing the zone relays. Wiring centres are a joke also, big clumps of connector strips. I don't know how an engineer can sign off on a DIY install like that.

Type 901

deezell wrote: »

Its likely the zone valve relays were never used, or were cut out when the last bit of work was done. Grey/Orange valve relay contact wires are there from the HW valve, I can't see the cut ends of the CH valve cables in the other photo, they could be there cut off also, though it's possible that those valves have no relay. Check if this is so, if the CH valves are different from the HW valve . It's really not acceptable that a new boiler install would not include an S plan wire up, but instead just a bodge on your previous wiring. The valves are there, the relays most likely are there on all of them. If you want an easy life, and a diy rewire, get a Lex box like this, to wire all stats, valves, boiler, pump and other bits to. Worth every penny

Thanks having a look! So have confirmed all valves have grey/orange wires and they are Danfoss type hpa2 valves.

In fairness to RGI it was just a straight gas boiler replacement requested. Only in the house this year and how I though the heating was working before the installation was completely wrong based on what found now! Looks that the valve signal wires were never wired in at all previously. But there are two cables (2 core and earth) and one core from another cable unused routed from the valve terminal block by HW tank to the boiler timer from time of house build. You spotted these in the timer picture but have put up clearer image. Likely were meant to be used for the valve signal live?

Question now is could I just use these to take the grey or orange from the valves down to the boiler timer when installing the extension kit? Of course colours won't be correct but can label to reflect.

deezell

masterboy123 wrote: »

Hello All,

I have successfully connected to Wiser Heating system and its working 100%

A special thanks to Deezell and Championc for going beyond the limits to help me out.

So the issue is with Huawei routers which doesn't have a stable connection with Wiser. The customer service agent from Wiser has highlighted this to me and advised to get a WiFi Extender (from any other brand), therefore I bought TP Link Wi-Fi extender today and it worked within seconds. Happy days

Attached is a screenshot from Wiser app

Huawei router? Hmm, maybe Trump was right, they're interrupting your heating to spy on your energy use, and thus disrupt the political order. Crafty Bs.

deezell

John mac wrote: »

could be im wrong

, but is N = Neutral = Blue
L=Live= Brown . ?

They couldn't even get that right. But assuming the timer terminals are volt free, then the relay outputs are supplied by a llink from the live in, (Brown wire to 1), so at least they relay is switching a live source, as L and N only power the timer clock. I see a cut end of what appears to be a grey cable underneath the muddle of wires.

masterboy123

Hello All,

I have successfully connected to Wiser Heating system and its working 100%

A special thanks to Deezell and Championc for going beyond the limits to help me out.

So the issue is with Huawei routers which doesn't have a stable connection with Wiser. The customer service agent from Wiser has highlighted this to me and advised to get a WiFi Extender (from any other brand), therefore I bought TP Link Wi-Fi extender today and it worked within seconds. Happy days

Attached is a screenshot from Wiser app

John mac

Type 901 wrote: »

Have attached photo of the current wall timer wiring. As far as I can see locations are filled as -

could be im wrong

, but is N = Neutral = Blue
L=Live= Brown . ?

deezell

Type 901 wrote: »

That was right but got a new boiler and they put in a simple on/off/boost digital timer but don't think this it was wired the same as before. Previously could leave constant on and boiler seemed to fire when wall stat/HW stat needed heat - as far as I could see. Now when constant on the boiler still fires when all valves closed.

Have attached photo of the current wall timer wiring. As far as I can see locations are filled as -

N - fused mains live
L - fused main and boiler neutral
1 - boiler live
2 - empty
3 - Boiler heat live return and brown wire (? - assume from valve terminal)

Have looked at the HW Stat/Valve and Zone Valves terminal blocks - mapping looks as below. Grey/Orange don't seem to be used, so looks that relays where not used - can see cut in HW terminal block image. There is two 4-core cables running from zone valve terminals to boiler timer I think which could be used if not wired right.

HW Stat and Valve terminal block
Wiring from|1|2|3|4
Stat|Black|Brown| |Y/G
Valve|Brown| |Blue |
Zone valves block||Brown|Blue |Y/G

Zone Valves terminal block
Wiring from|1|2|3|4|5
HW Valve/Stat|Y&G|Blue |Brown | |
Zone 1 valve| |Blue | |Brown|
Zone 2 valve| |Blue | | |Brown

Its likely the zone valve relays were never used, or were cut out when the last bit of work was done. Grey/Orange valve relay contact wires are there from the HW valve, I can't see the cut ends of the CH valve cables in the other photo, they could be there cut off also, though it's possible that those valves have no relay. Check if this is so, if the CH valves are different from the HW valve . It's really not acceptable that a new boiler install would not include an S plan wire up, but instead just a bodge on your previous wiring. The valves are there, the relays most likely are there on all of them. If you want an easy life, and a diy rewire, get a Lex box like this, to wire all stats, valves, boiler, pump and other bits to. Worth every penny
https://www.systemlink.ie/systemlex.html

Type 901

deezell wrote: »

From your October post, you have a 3 zone system, 3 valves, 2 CH stats and a HW stat, all running off one mechanical timer? If so, you only need to wire your two new stats in place of the old ones, bring the power to the HW valve from the ext kit HW NO, via the cylinder stat, (with ext kit live looped to HW Com.) Short the old timer relay in out live wires. Or leave it on permanently.

That was right but got a new boiler and they put in a simple on/off/boost digital timer but don't think this it was wired the same as before. Previously could leave constant on and boiler seemed to fire when wall stat/HW stat needed heat - as far as I could see. Now when constant on the boiler still fires when all valves closed.

Have attached photo of the current wall timer wiring. As far as I can see locations are filled as -

N - fused mains live
L - fused main and boiler neutral
1 - boiler live
2 - empty
3 - Boiler heat live return and brown wire (? - assume from valve terminal)

deezell wrote: »

Its possible this latter step was not done in your system, and the boiler was fired directly from the single timer, with the stats just opening their respective valves, the valve relays unused. This setup would mean the boiler firing even when all 3 valves were closed. Have another look at your system, listing wire colours is of little help if you don't post images,..

Have looked at the HW Stat/Valve and Zone Valves terminal blocks - mapping looks as below. Grey/Orange don't seem to be used, so looks that relays where not used - can see cut in HW terminal block image. There is two unused 4-core cables running from zone valve terminal box to boiler timer I think which could be used if not wired right.

HW Stat and Valve terminal block
Wiring from|1|2|3|4
Stat|Black|Brown| |Y/G
Valve|Brown| |Blue |
Zone valves block||Brown|Blue |Y/G

Zone Valves terminal block
Wiring from|1|2|3|4|5
HW Valve/Stat|Y&G|Blue |Brown | |
Zone 1 valve| |Blue | |Brown|
Zone 2 valve| |Blue | | |Brown

Need to clarify where the wires out of the zone valves terminal block are combining/going as not clear yet

deezell

crighton wrote: »

General warning....
.....He said Energia has been operating a questionable promotion where they offer you a deal on Energia-Netatmo fit out when in fact they are clawing back & profiting of your 250 euro gov subsidy without you being aware of your eligibility.

I've being saying this for ages. If you then try to get a grant for a real zoning or heating improvement, your grant is gone. If you get a free Netatmo installed, thats probably fair value if you dont pay anything, but some utilities are installing junk and claiming wonderous energy efficiency improvements based on theoretical statistical models, not your actual install. There are cases where they stuck in a single rubbish stat in place of of two zoned manual stats, de-zoning the clients home and upping his heat bill.

crighton

General warning -

Just had our 2nd Netatmo break in 18mths, this time is simply stopped working. The unit is apprx 1 year old.

Previous time it burnt out posing a fire risk [Energia said they sent that unit for tech review but were unable to confirm what caused it].

A few things to be aware of and to note:
The independent boiler service guy this time said many of his callouts are currently replacing broken Netatmo units.
The Energia-Netatmo service people appear either untrained or lack expertise in fitting etc.
He said Energia has been operating a questionable promotion where they offer you a deal on Energia-Netatmo fit out when in fact they are clawing back & profiting of your 250 euro gov subsidy without you being aware of your eligibility.

deezell

2 zone S plan. Duplicate the CH wiring for 3 zone, with permanent live to the room stats as timing is performed in the Tado statd, not at the controller shown. Also Tado stats don't require the neutral blue wire shown.

rtaImage?eid=ka12G0000004oUD&feoid=00N6A00000OD8Su&refid=0EM6A000000MeuW

rtaImage?eid=ka12G0000004oUD&feoid=00N6A00000OD8Su&refid=0EM6A000000MeuW

deezell

From your October post, you have a 3 zone system, 3 valves, 2 CH stats and a HW stat, all running off one mechanical timer? If so, you only need to wire your two new stats in place of the old ones, bring the power to the HW valve from the ext kit HW NO, via the cylinder stat, (with ext kit live looped to HW Com.) Short the old timer relay in out live wires. Or leave it on permanently.
The three valves should have permanent live in to their relay Com terminal, and the SL outs of the relays NO terminals are joined and sent to fire the boiler, (from the valve, Orange and Grey wires respectively, sometimes reversed).
Its possible this latter step was not done in your system, and the boiler was fired directly from the single timer, with the stats just opening their respective valves, the valve relays unused. This setup would mean the boiler firing even when all 3 valves were closed. Have another look at your system, listing wire colours is of little help if you don't post images, but you don"t need to use the wireless stat output on the ext kit, unless you want to, in which case it goes to the motor of that stat's zone valve, usually a brown wire, but not directly to the boiler SL firing terminal, as this is the task of the zone valve relays. Crossing the output lives of stats directly at the boiler to outputs derived from zone valve relays will result in crossed zones, HW opening CH1 and so on.

Type 901

deezell wrote: »

It's a more versatile kit though, both relays are volt free, on a par with nest. It can facilitate priorty wiring

So would be good for my setup although wouldn't be using volt free/priority calls?

Just need to finalise the wire up, as currently I don't think right after a new boiler and basic single programmer was put in. Bit of a mess there and need to confirm wires are right.

Would the below look right for 3 zone?

Gas Boiler cable - Blue to N, Brown to L, Black to CH NO
Patch wire L to CH COM
Patch wire CH COM to HW COM
2 Brown from zone valves (1&2) to CH NO
1 blue from HW valve/cylinder stat to HW NO

mrcheez

Not sure if this might interest any of ye, but I recently "smartified" my standard 2-zone heating controls by adding 2 Switchbots which push the "turn on heating for 1 hour" button via Alexa

Nice and cheap solution and works a charm, plus can still get access to the control panel as the door opens and closes with the Switchbot attached.

deezell

Type 901 wrote: »

Photo attached - all wires go direct to unit and then just cover clips on. Rather backing plate used that I've seen in the extension kits.

It's a more versatile kit though, both relays are volt free, on a par with nest. It can facilitate priorty wiring