When will the college degree 'bubble' burst?

lawrencesummers · 16-10-2020 3:18pm

I studied in field completely unrelated to the two very different areas I work in currently.

The vast majority of people in my class that still work in that sector are not earning a comfortable living.

People can shoehorn themselves into one area to much and not identify opportunity, adapt skills, up skill etc

Granadino · 16-10-2020 3:59pm

mr_fegelien wrote: »

When does someone think this will burst? Not as much of an issue in Ireland but it seems that places like the U.S. or Canada have thousands of students going to college, many who either have no idea what to do, no ability to do the course they choose and/or no money but go anyway. They come out 4+ years with a crappy degree and end up working as a Barista.

It said that a Bachelors is the new H.S. diploma. In the 50-80s, you could graduate secondary school, get a factory job and support yourself and a whole family by the age of 20. Nowadays, people are still living with mommy and daddy up until 30. And the competition for jobs is enormous even with a degree.

What do you think the future of education is?

In my 40s and I think my parents generation was the last one where their standard of living was better than their parents/my grandparents.
While overall, the standard of living is good now, or it it, nobody can be married in a decent job with a house and kids by 30 these days, as it was years ago. Recently my folks told me how easy it was to get and pay a mortgage in the 70s with regular jobs.
I went back to do a masters in a university about 5 years ago which was the biggest waste of time and money ever. Useless useless course.

mr_fegelien · 16-10-2020 4:02pm

Granadino wrote: »

In my 40s and I think my parents generation was the last one where their standard of living was better than their parents/my grandparents.
While overall, the standard of living is good now, or it it, nobody can be married in a decent job with a house and kids by 30 these days, as it was years ago. Recently my folks told me how easy it was to get and pay a mortgage in the 70s with regular jobs.
I went back to do a masters in a university about 5 years ago which was the biggest waste of time and money ever. Useless useless course.

Lol..hope this isn't offensive but a masters in what? Cause if it's gender studies then I think you know what the problem is.

Someone on Reddit rightly pointed out that those who go into STEM courses and get a good grade will have little to no trouble finding work.

BattleCorp · 16-10-2020 4:24pm

If I was a young buck starting out again I'd skip the degree route and become a plumber or someone who fixes septic tanks.

You can never get anyone to do either of those jobs and they can charge a fortune.

rdwight · 16-10-2020 4:31pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Anyone doing a gender studies/equality etc.. degree is only hurting their job opportunities, getting a non stem degree wont help you for anything anymore.

That said myself and the owner of a dublin coffee shop chain did have a laugh one day in one of the stores, talking with the staff and one of them had a masters in journalism, another a psychology degree, myself and himself without degrees, we laughed and drank coffee and left in our range rover and Porsche respectively.

Most of my working life has been based on vocational night courses I took in my late twenties. But among the useful things I learned in university was that people who laugh at other people's poor choices are generally dic*heads. As, curiously enough, are a disproportionate number of people who feel the need to drive Porsches.

16-10-2020 4:38pm

rdwight wrote: »

As, curiously enough, are a disproportionate number of people who feel the need to drive Porsches.

There's reverse snobbery at play here though.

Eric Cartman · 16-10-2020 4:56pm

Deleted User wrote: »

There's reverse snobbery at play here though.

serious amounts of jealousy radiating from some posts here.

Eric Cartman · 16-10-2020 5:00pm

Jimmy Bottlehead wrote: »

Seems to be a lot of bitterness, resentment and so forth toward those with third level educations on here, specifically from those without.

There's no reason to look down on about someone who studied four 3-4 years, obtained a third level degree, found themselves in an unfavourable job market and are "working in Starbucks" to pay the bills.

As for my own experience, my fairly extensive education (once it finishes) will leave me with a very well paid job for life. In this field, PhD/doctoral level education is required (minimum 7 years of study, most are closer to 10 years), and I'm very glad the standard is that high as it's not something that someone with a one-year professional qualification should or could do.

I don't think anyones looking down on anyone for having an education. I think its just being pointed out that many people often waste those 3-4 years on something that doesn't produce the economic outcome that they were led to believe by a prospectus/guidance councillor. The only reason most of these people went to college is they were taught to look down on those that had not / those that went into trades, and the grass wasn't greener on their side.

From a school leaving level this idea that apprenticeships or going straight to the workforce are 'lesser' paths needs to be left out. We need to educate our young people to make choices to support themselves, encourage things like STEM, Medicine, Law etc.. for those that want to go to college and stop universities hoovering money out of kids to make them less employable or not improve their circumstances in any way.

rdwight · 16-10-2020 5:03pm

Deleted User wrote: »

There's reverse snobbery at play here though.

Despite my natural inclination to reverse snobbery I do give Porsche drivers the benefit of the doubt. At least until they conform to stereotype by, for instance, boasting about driving a Porsche or boasting about laughing at people who earn less money than they do.

Eric Cartman · 16-10-2020 5:06pm

rdwight wrote: »

Despite my natural inclination to reverse snobbery I do give Porsche drivers the benefit of the doubt. At least until they conform to stereotype by, for instance, boasting about driving a Porsche or boasting about laughing at people who earn less money than they do.

lets clear that up, we laughed amongst ourselves after the discussion, Im an absolute a**hole but I would never laugh at service staff, very necessary people and not the kind you want to piss off.

twowheelsonly · 16-10-2020 5:30pm

Deleted User wrote: »

A lot of jobs grossly overstate their difficulty.

A lot of them overstate their importance as well.. 'Sales Consultant' being a glaring example.

marieholmfan wrote: »

In the 50s everyone emigrated, in the 60s everyone emigrated, in the 80s everyone emigrated. What the hell are you taking about?

Not everyone emigrated. I did my LC in 1981 (had just turned 17). I only know of two classmates that emigrated - both by choice - about eight went on to college and the rest of us started working. I started work myself that September and bar a two month break by choice I've never been out of work since.

BattleCorp wrote: »

If I was a young buck starting out again I'd skip the degree route and become a plumber or someone who fixes septic tanks.

You can never get anyone to do either of those jobs and they can charge a fortune.

A workmate of mine reckons that Plumbers are the 'least educated and least intelligent' of all the trades and don't deserve their money !! (My son is a plumber..) Electricians are the most intelligent apparently

I said come back to me when your pipes or rads burst or your electricity goes on a Saturday night. Which one will you pay more for to come out straight away...

A degree is all well and good and allows youngsters a chance to figure out what they really want to do. My second fella did one year of Computer Science and hated it but worked the year in bars. He packed up the CS but kept working in bars and went back to CIT to do a Business Degree incorporating hospitality management (or something like that....) Went on to manage a few high profile bar & restaurants for a good few years but has since moved on to become a purchasing manager something, something, something in a completely different industry.
Very few college entrants even know for sure what they want to do in the future bar maybe Medicine / Nursing / Vet and a few like that. No harm at all in doing that degree so long as they work their way through college as well and get a bit of life experience along the way. That will probably stand to them as much as some of the degrees they'll get !!

Biker79 · 16-10-2020 5:40pm

University is out of whack. There are either too many overqualified people for the roles they are doing, or too many people who arent bright enough for the roles they are doing. The latter being more prevalent in academia/ senior policy / upper managment positions.

It was probably somebody's bright idea to offload the burden of training to 3rd level in order to save on in-company training expenses. A terrible decision. Completely agree many roles would be better served with an in house apprenticeship scheme.

Of course, a lot of it is driven by people seeking status rather than adding value.

Cirrus Incus · 16-10-2020 5:50pm

Most degrees that aren't STEM or professional (medicine, law, dentistry, actuary , pharmacy .etc) are a waste of time.

TuringBot47 · 16-10-2020 6:25pm

mr_fegelien wrote: »

Someone on Reddit rightly pointed out that those who go into STEM courses and get a good grade will have little to no trouble finding work.

That's the thing...

Vaguely... college course choices are either
a) based on you liking the subject which is no guarantee of a job
b) based on you picking the most employable skills
c) based on your aptitude and a compromise of a & b
d) someone told you to do it and you hadn't a better option

But if you're useless then you're still struggle either way.
50% of people are below average.
In a competitive market, then you'd need to be much nearer the top.

JustAThought · 16-10-2020 6:45pm

None of the genius maths heads I knew at school who studied science are working in that field.
I also know a few people who started their careers as lab technicians and absolutely hated it, changed job once or twice but after 5 or 6 years also got out of it. I know two people who trained as actuaries - one hated it and gave up her career - the other moved to finance but threw over the acturial work. The ST in STEM might be what the government is pushing for investment but it seems not to be such a sexy area ince you are in it. As for the reaearch - having worked in (ironically) the finance end of science research I wpuldn’t encourage anyone to go into it - the starting point for post research doctoral candidates is pitiful, the work irregular, contracts are based on luck and connections and no longevity or reliability in the career. You’d be financially far better off and far more job stability doing business, finance, or getting a 2.1 in any degree that you’d enjoy and do the milkround to get into management.

Five Eighth · 16-10-2020 7:04pm

I have a very high regard for apprenticeships and trades. Think someone with their head screwed on would do very well. In fairness, the Government is working with the IOT’s to develop ‘earn and learn’ degrees. They work on the same principle as apprenticeships and students are company sponsored all the way to Level 8. These types of degrees are already available in areas such as electrical and manufacturing engineering.
However, not everyone has an aptitude for STEM and may not have the high points for Medicine, Dentistry, etc. In this situation, some type of degree will, at least, get you onto the playing field. Entering the 20’s globalised workforce with no qualifications in the hope that you can start at the bottom and work you’re way up is a very tall order.
Finally, while the 70’s were, in some ways, great fun, the only people who aspired to and went to college were the well-off. We should not, as a nation, knock the opportunities that now exist, with the existence of grants, for all to aspire and experience third level education.

Tell me how · 16-10-2020 7:07pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Anyone doing a gender studies/equality etc.. degree is only hurting their job opportunities, getting a non stem degree wont help you for anything anymore.

That said myself and the owner of a dublin coffee shop chain did have a laugh one day in one of the stores, talking with the staff and one of them had a masters in journalism, another a psychology degree, myself and himself without degrees, we laughed and drank coffee and left in our range rover and Porsche respectively.

Christ but you actually clicked 'Post quick reply' on this.

A grown (I presume) man.

ED E · 16-10-2020 7:10pm

Don't you worry feig, you'll never leave mommy's basement.

jackboy · 16-10-2020 7:14pm

JustAThought wrote: »

None of the genius maths heads I knew at school who studied science are working in that field.
I also know a few people who started their careers as lab technicians and absolutely hated it, changed job once or twice but after 5 or 6 years also got out of it. I know two people who trained as actuaries - one hated it and gave up her career - the other moved to finance but threw over the acturial work. The ST in STEM might be what the government is pushing for investment but it seems not to be such a sexy area ince you are in it. As for the reaearch - having worked in (ironically) the finance end of science research I wpuldn’t encourage anyone to go into it - the starting point for post research doctoral candidates is pitiful, the work irregular, contracts are based on luck and connections and no longevity or reliability in the career. You’d be financially far better off and far more job stability doing business, finance, or getting a 2.1 in any degree that you’d enjoy and do the milkround to get into management.

With an awful lot of STEM jobs the first approx 10 years will be badly paid and a lot of the work donkey work. Once you gain those years of experience the opportunities are great and there is potential to earn well. You don’t even need to be that talented.

JustAThought · 17-10-2020 12:02am

jackboy wrote: »

With an awful lot of STEM jobs the first approx 10 years will be badly paid and a lot of the work donkey work. Once you gain those years of experience the opportunities are great and there is potential to earn well. You don’t even need to be that talented.

I don’t consider ten years of poorly paid misery a good trade of for a mediocre salary later and the ruin of ten of what should be the best years of ‘my’ life. Far better to do something that rewards you financially for your effort and that you enjoy. The pity is with the govt. bleating away about stem the way it used to about finance and banking (IFSC global finance & investment HQ ring a bell?) the big picture of ALL the other career choices , industries and opportunities are drowned out by the big leinster house PR bell.

As regards degrees or 4 or 5 year trade apprenticeships, whichever suits you you still need to work, learn and put in many years effort and learning. In our generation there are few who do not have either - unless you have the cPital
to legally set up and run a business or inherit one or are simply independently filthy rich you are competing with your peers for lifestyle and opportunity. A trade or degree is the easiest and clearest pathway to providing this .
Scratchcards and begrugery are far less reliable.

dubrov · 17-10-2020 1:03am

Competition for jobs was much higher in the 80s. Unemployment was huge.

You'd be surprised but by in large students tend to go for degrees where the jobs are.

quokula · 17-10-2020 2:04am

On a macro level our well educated workforce is what attracts multinationals and keeps our economy afloat. On an even larger macro level well educated people are the ones we're all depending on right now to produce a vaccine or treatment and get the world back to normal. Just as they've been the ones who've been at the forefront of almost every advancement human society has ever made. Frankly just looking at the different voting records of educated / uneducated demographics in the UK and US recently is enough of an argument for more people to be educated.

Ignorance shouldn't be celebrated and education is always worthwhile. While it is possible to be uneducated and earn decent money, there is a lot more to life than money.

Yyhhuuu · 17-10-2020 2:20am

mr_fegelien wrote: »

Tell that to the homeless man who gets rained on and gets kicked/urinated on by passers by because he can't afford adequate housing.

Without money, you are nothing in this world. Money can't guarantee 100% happiness but a lack of money can guarantee 100% misery.

I should correct you: money cant guarantee ANY happiness...

17-10-2020 6:31am

Yyhhuuu wrote: »

I should correct you: money cant guarantee ANY happiness...

And a hatchet strapped to you right hand cant guarantee you'll survive a zombie apocalypse, but its far more likely with than without!

Wanderer78 · 17-10-2020 6:35am

jasper_Quinn wrote:

Pre Covid companies would spend a few 100k a year on diversity or feminist positions, now that the arse has fallen out of the economy these rolls are are gone, i expect we will see the end of useless degrees in these fields, they contribute Fuuck all to the world, good riddance.

So how do you feel about the arts and humanities?

_Brian · 17-10-2020 7:21am

Esse85 wrote: »

There should be more value and emphasis placed on apprenticeships and on the job training, rather than continuously studying theory.

Many of these degrees/masters don't prepare the person for the working environment.

People get sucked into the marketing hype that colleges spew out about their courses, what people need to realise is, colleges are businesses and need to market and sell their courses to get bums on seats. That's their primary concern, not whether you get a job/career at the end of it.

There’s a difference in being “job ready” as you are at the end of an apprenticeship, compared to being prepared to start a career in say electrical engineering at the end of a 4 year degree.

They are different roles and require different backgrounds of education.

Wheat we constantly see are people not able to tell the difference in roles out in the workplace and presuming everyone can do the same thing.

Appropriate training for the person and the position they want to hold down the line. Apprenticeships are very solid entries into the workplace but they don’t have the depth of knowledge that a degree holder will have and so aren’t ready for the same tasks.

Neither is better than the other, as they are aimed at different people and different jobs.

Wanderer78 · 17-10-2020 8:22am

_Brian wrote: »

There’s a difference in being “job ready” as you are at the end of an apprenticeship, compared to being prepared to start a career in say electrical engineering at the end of a 4 year degree.

They are different roles and require different backgrounds of education.

Wheat we constantly see are people not able to tell the difference in roles out in the workplace and presuming everyone can do the same thing.

Appropriate training for the person and the position they want to hold down the line. Apprenticeships are very solid entries into the workplace but they don’t have the depth of knowledge that a degree holder will have and so aren’t ready for the same tasks.

Neither is better than the other, as they are aimed at different people and different jobs.

both of you are making some good points, but our educational system has become too biased, increasing mobility in our system has largely worked, but its still failing in many ways, rote learning only truly benefits particular types of brains, and effectively punishes others. we need to include alternatives into our system such as the trades, and alternatives, as society still equally needs the others, in order to function.

RandomName2 · 17-10-2020 10:21am

Donald Trump wrote: »

It's people's own fault for wasting 4 years out in Belfield. Granted, everyone needs to find their own level and make the most of it, but there has to be a limit to such useless waste of time and money. They should have studied harder for the Leaving

We should evaluate how much the entire education system represents value for money.

People on average spend 19 years of their life in an educational institution of some kind.

Employment now sees an inflation in entry requirements. A delivery company the other day put out a job advert where a degree in any discipline was stated as mandatory. This is a delivery company!

What will it be in 20 years time, that a PhD is mandatory to stack shelves?

Wanderer78 · 17-10-2020 10:23am

RandomName2 wrote: »

We should evaluate how much the entire education system represents value for money.

People on average spend 19 years of their life in an educational institution of some kind.

Employment now sees an inflation in entry requirements. A delivery company the other day put out a job advert where a degree in any discipline was stated as mandatory. This is a delivery company!

What will it be in 20 years time, that a PhD is mandatory to stack shelves?

may not be shelves to stack in 20 years, we all could be working for amazon, living the dream!

StackSteevens · 17-10-2020 10:28am

RandomName2 wrote: »

We should evaluate how much the entire education system represents value for money.

People on average spend 19 years of their life in an educational institution of some kind.

Employment now sees an inflation in entry requirements. A delivery company the other day put out a job advert where a degree in any discipline was stated as mandatory. This is a delivery company!

What will it be in 20 years time, that a PhD is mandatory to stack shelves?

When I was in the Defence Forces - over 25 years ago - an allowance still existed for being able to read and write! Presumably it dated back to the days when many recruits couldn't.

When will the college degree 'bubble' burst?

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