When will the college degree 'bubble' burst?

jackboy

Wanderer78 wrote: »

both of you are making some good points, but our educational system has become too biased, increasing mobility in our system has largely worked, but its still failing in many ways, rote learning only truly benefits particular types of brains, and effectively punishes others. we need to include alternatives into our system such as the trades, and alternatives, as society still equally needs the others, in order to function.

In Ireland some pharma companies value candidates with degrees for production line jobs. The same companies in other European countries take on 18 year old apprentices for similar positions and train them up.

Wanderer78

jackboy wrote: »

In Ireland some pharma companies value candidates with degrees for production line jobs. The same companies in other European countries take on 18 year old apprentices for similar positions and train them up.

yup, ive seen this myself, maybe its slowly running its course, but increasing access to our education system has been a major part of our recent successes, but we do need to make great changes in our educational system now, to guarantee future successes

mrslancaster

_Brian wrote: »

There’s a difference in being “job ready” as you are at the end of an apprenticeship, compared to being prepared to start a career in say electrical engineering at the end of a 4 year degree.
..... Apprenticeships are very solid entries into the workplace but they don’t have the depth of knowledge that a degree holder will have and so aren’t ready for the same tasks.

Neither is better than the other, as they are aimed at different people and different jobs.

What about nurses or accountants as examples of the change? Years ago they did on the job training just like apprentices but now both do 4 year degree as a starting point.

afaik apprenticeships take longer than 4 years & requires study & exams also so why not call them 'degree in plumbing, carpentry, electrics, etc

maybe every course of study/practicals should be awarded the same title, ie cert/dip/degree/master depending on the level of knowledge gained and not the type of institute you happen to attend.

still snobby attitudes around today about which 3rd level institute you get your degree from.

JimmyVik

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

From checking out the linkedin of a few of our grads over the years I can tell you that the truth is often ehhhhh.... stretched on there.

Reminds me of a new project that started in our company a few years ago.
Day one there was a big meeting for everyone to introduce themselves.


One got up and said, "Hi i'm Jake, Im from London. I was a company director before joining the team here. Glad to be on board."


Jake was on a 3 month contract with us for data entry. He was an agency worker. Sure he might be a director of his own company because he is a contractor.


Then Alices turn. "Hi, Im Alice. My background is in retail. Glad to join the team."


Alice was brought on to the team as a translator. She used to work at the checkout in Dunnes.

yoke

The education system teaches you how to be spoon-fed. Never teaches you to trust yourself, and how to seek out new information and learn by yourself.

College was a complete load of ****e too, but during it I took up a social hobby where I met people (students mostly, but some very smart non-students who were good at the hobby) who helped me un-learn the ****e rigid way of thinking I'd picked up in school (how to "conform" basically), and showed me (by example) how to "get things done" rather than rely on others to teach me.

In fact it was more the years doing nothing where I learned the most. It was during my "college years", but it had absolutely nothing to do with the ****e I was taught while actually in college.

Incidentally, a guy who I would consider one of the smartest out of all of them (although the least book-smart probably) was someone who dropped out of school when he was 14, and would never have gone to college. He doesn't even realise how much I learned from his confidence and by watching him. It amazed me how confident he was and would never give up the fight even against authority and all odds.

As an example - once, I thought it was too late to apply for a visa to a country for a competition where I was on his team. I had given up before I even started, saying "sorry I won't be able to go, I didnt put in the visa application in time cos it takes 10 days and I dont even know what I need to apply" - I was expecting to be spoon-fed, a product of our education system.
He wouldn't have it though, he went and looked on the internet in front of me and found out what I needed to apply and then actually helped me with the application forms. I ended up getting the visa the morning after the flight (which was at night, and already paid for) so I missed the flight anyway and couldn't go, but it showed me that if I had acted like him from the beginning, instead of lethargic and expecting to be spoon-fed, I would have easily made it.
Oh, and we were both teenagers, but he was a year younger than me to top it all off.

What a lesson. Effort is never wasted.

Hobgoblin11

When will the college degree 'bubble' burst?

never as some will always be essential

When will certain college degrees 'bubble' burst?

they have already, employers dont even consider some level 8s as worthy such as hdips that are non-teaching/education

Eric Cartman

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Anyone doing a gender studies/equality etc.. degree is only hurting their job opportunities, getting a non stem degree wont help you for anything anymore.

That said myself and the owner of a dublin coffee shop chain did have a laugh one day in one of the stores, talking with the staff and one of them had a masters in journalism, another a psychology degree, myself and himself without degrees, we laughed and drank coffee and left in our range rover and Porsche respectively.

I have a degree in something pretty academic, I did a masters in a different field but don't remotely regret my degree. It never negatively affected my career prospects and suspect it was beneficial in many ways. Will have my first house before I'm thirty so I'm well off financially but don't tend to judge people who earn less than me.

Also wouldn't view how much I earn as a sign of career success. Nurses, carers and teachers don't earn a whole lot but I'd have a hell of a lot of respect for the work that they do. And if you're laughing at people because you can afford to drive a range rover or a Porsche, that's a tad sad.

Bass Reeves

yoke wrote: »

The education system teaches you how to be spoon-fed. Never teaches you to trust yourself, and how to seek out new information and learn by yourself.

College was a complete load of ****e too, but during it I took up a social hobby where I met people (students mostly, but some very smart non-students who were good at the hobby) who helped me un-learn the ****e rigid way of thinking I'd picked up in school (how to "conform" basically), and showed me (by example) how to "get things done" rather than rely on others to teach me.

In fact it was more the years doing nothing where I learned the most. It was during my "college years", but it had absolutely nothing to do with the ****e I was taught while actually in college.

Incidentally, a guy who I would consider one of the smartest out of all of them (although the least book-smart probably) was someone who dropped out of school when he was 14, and would never have gone to college. He doesn't even realise how much I learned from his confidence and by watching him. It amazed me how confident he was and would never give up the fight even against authority and all odds.

As an example - once, I thought it was too late to apply for a visa to a country for a competition where I was on his team. I had given up before I even started, saying "sorry I won't be able to go, I didnt put in the visa application in time cos it takes 10 days and I dont even know what I need to apply" - I was expecting to be spoon-fed, a product of our education system.
He wouldn't have it though, he went and looked on the internet in front of me and found out what I needed to apply and then actually helped me with the application forms. I ended up getting the visa the morning after the flight (which was at night, and already paid for) so I missed the flight anyway and couldn't go, but it showed me that if I had acted like him from the beginning, instead of lethargic and expecting to be spoon-fed, I would have easily made it.
Oh, and we were both teenagers, but he was a year younger than me to top it all off.

What a lesson. Effort is never wasted.

About 10+ years ago I worked with a lad that was in late 50's. He was telling me back in the late 60's when was only 16 he got an apprenticeship/training program with a state body.on a Sunday morning his father a farmer took him to a railway station somewhere in Mayo.

He has a bag with a few things packed in and a bit of food from his mother. He was starting in a training college in Waterford on Monday morning at 9 am. His father put ten pounds in his pocket and told him.....
''make the best of it. There is nothing here for you. Write and keep in contact with your mother''

He arrived in Waterford railway station at 8 pm with no place to stay and approached a Garda looking for a BnB. The Garda actually sorted him out with digs.

Due to the vagaries of the transport system the next time he got home was Christmas. He had to find a part time job to supplement his wages which just about covered the digs for 7 days.

What he qualified at is now regarded as engineering type work. His work area changed and he adapted. This was not unusual with young people 40+ years ago. Can you imagine even with modern communication a 16 year old left to adapt to that situation now . He probably need a degree to figure it out

3d4life

Its all about networking and chance, not about learning. Has been for generations. Look at how essential Public schools + Oxbridge background is in UK

Consider Jared Kushner ...

Never stood for election but seems to have significant control over how the US of A is run

Went to Harvard https://www.boston.com/news/politics/2018/05/21/jared-kushner-harvard-class-of-2003-anniversary-report

Came from a family of property 'investors' and married into a similar family

Woke up one day and found himself in The Whitehouse


Q. Just how much did the Kushner family give Harvard ?

yoke

3d4life wrote: »

Its all about networking and chance, not about learning. Has been for generations

And this is exactly why I'm planning to send my kids to college.

It is still a much better environment than school, and at least college students tend to "conform" a lot less than school students, so that will hopefully remove some of the damage done by the lower schooling system (where students spend years learning how to conform and do rote learning, with the possible exception of higher level maths or physics which has some stuff requiring you to actually think).

The networking opportunities as you've pointed out are huge too, and life changing.

Donald Trump

JimmyVik wrote: »

Reminds me of a new project that started in our company a few years ago.
Day one there was a big meeting for everyone to introduce themselves.


One got up and said, "Hi i'm Jake, Im from London. I was a company director before joining the team here. Glad to be on board."


Jake was on a 3 month contract with us for data entry. He was an agency worker. Sure he might be a director of his own company because he is a contractor.


Then Alices turn. "Hi, Im Alice. My background is in retail. Glad to join the team."


Alice was brought on to the team as a translator. She used to work at the checkout in Dunnes.

When explaining that the Dunne's Stores girl with no experience was selected for the position over the English fella with experience, you forgot to mention that Alice was hot with massive boobs and wore low cut tops to work every day





Sure your man John Spillane even wrote a song about her

More directly for the topic of the thread, I haven't seen anyone say that the thread title is ridiculous. How is it a "bubble" that will "burst"? a candidate with a degree will generally be seen as an increment over the otherwise identical candidate without one. That is obvious

JimmyVik

Donald Trump wrote: »

When explaining that the Dunne's Stores girl with no experience was selected for the position over the English fella with experience, you forgot to mention that Alice was hot with massive boobs and wore low cut tops to work every day

Sure your man John Spillane even wrote a song about her

More directly for the topic of the thread, I haven't seen anyone say that the thread title is ridiculous. How is it a "bubble" that will "burst"? a candidate with a degree will generally be seen as an increment over the otherwise identical candidate without one. That is obvious

They both already had the job at that point. But your description of her is bang on

Mules

I started a new job about 4 months ago. The requirement in the ad was for at least a level 7 degree. It's a grand job, it's handy and a lot less work than the minimum wage jobs I've done. However there's no way you would need a degree to do it. A bit of common sense would do.

I think that's the handy thing about a degree, you get to avoid the minimum wage jobs where your'e treating like **** and work like a slave. You can get a handy number with good pay when you have the piece of paper. College is well worth it for that alone.

Donald Trump

Mules wrote: »

I started a new job about 4 months ago. The requirement in the ad was for at least a level 7 degree. It's a grand job, it's handy and a lot less work than the minimum wage jobs I've done. However there's no way you would need a degree to do it. A bit of common sense would do.

I think that's the handy thing about a degree, you get to avoid the minimum wage jobs where your'e treating like **** and work like a slave. You can get a handy number with good pay when you have the piece of paper. College is well worth it for that alone.

The requirement to have a degree is often simply a filter. You likely don't need your degree to do your day-to-day. It just shows that you have some ability to learn and absorb new things.


The person who doesn't have a degree might also have those abilities and might actually have better aptitude for the work. I could hire them and take a risk and find out on the job. Will I bother my hole? It's only an entry level job maybe and I don't have the time for that. If it's my own small company then maybe I will, but if I'm just a hiring manager in a larger organization then I'm not going to bother. I'll just take the candidate that ticked the boxes. Covers me against any claims of favouritism or discrimination or flawed processes etc.

Tefral

I firmly believe going to college to get a degree is more about perseverance than actually being "smart".

I also believe any degree that doesn't have your end job title in it, is a waste of time.

In terms of people studying on from say a level 7 & 8 to a level 9: A lot more people I see with an M.A. are unemployed compared to those with an M.Sc.

Take from that what you will.

_Brian

Wanderer78 wrote: »

both of you are making some good points, but our educational system has become too biased, increasing mobility in our system has largely worked, but its still failing in many ways, rote learning only truly benefits particular types of brains, and effectively punishes others. we need to include alternatives into our system such as the trades, and alternatives, as society still equally needs the others, in order to function.

We already have trades.. plenty of people opt for trades every year.. Its just a factor of life that you need X level of qualification for a position.. I can't see any problem with that..


They are different routes into different jobs and careers..


Timkes change. Take equipment maintenance as a simple example as I'm familliar with that..


In basic lower technology manufacturing you often see trades in doing maintenance on equipment, fitters in particular for the mechanical maintenance.. However higher technology maintenance requires more education and specifically more science education and so in these positions you most often see engineering graduates in the maintenance roles.
Neither job is better or worse than the other, its just different and requires different training. Over time this is where oiur manufacturing has moved, thats no surprise, its been told for decades that higher technology in manufacturing needs different skills..
Its not a bubble, its keeping with demand and facilitating further investment in Ireland which is good for everyone.

Are apprencice trades positions going unfilled each year ???? Not that I've heard of.. Supply and demand, if all the places are being filled each year then its at a balance.. Last thing we need is a mad push to qualify loads of extra trades without sufficient suitable work.. Unnaturally enticing people to do a trade when its not needed is unfair to them.

Granadino

BattleCorp wrote: »

If I was a young buck starting out again I'd skip the degree route and become a plumber or someone who fixes septic tanks.

You can never get anyone to do either of those jobs and they can charge a fortune.

Same here, I'd do a trade. Carpentry or a fitter. I know trades can be decimated when there's a recession, but box clever and you can still be alright.

Eric Cartman

BattleCorp wrote: »

If I was a young buck starting out again I'd skip the degree route and become a plumber or someone who fixes septic tanks.

You can never get anyone to do either of those jobs and they can charge a fortune.

I absolutely wish somebody had said to me to do an electricians apprenticeship instead of going to college, its the only cert thats ever held me back in my field, having to call another lad just to sign off on something I could have easily done myself.

Granadino

Eric Cartman wrote: »

I absolutely wish somebody had said to me to do an electricians apprenticeship instead of going to college, its the only cert thats ever held me back in my field, having to call another lad just to sign off on something I could have easily done myself.

I know guys who did electrical apprenticeships, and years later are lift technicians. Good jobs, good money.

Nigel Fairservice

Bass Reeves wrote: »

About 10+ years ago I worked with a lad that was in late 50's. He was telling me back in the late 60's when was only 16 he got an apprenticeship/training program with a state body.on a Sunday morning his father a farmer took him to a railway station somewhere in Mayo.

He has a bag with a few things packed in and a bit of food from his mother. He was starting in a training college in Waterford on Monday morning at 9 am. His father put ten pounds in his pocket and told him.....
''make the best of it. There is nothing here for you. Write and keep in contact with your mother''

He arrived in Waterford railway station at 8 pm with no place to stay and approached a Garda looking for a BnB. The Garda actually sorted him out with digs.

Due to the vagaries of the transport system the next time he got home was Christmas. He had to find a part time job to supplement his wages which just about covered the digs for 7 days.

What he qualified at is now regarded as engineering type work. His work area changed and he adapted. This was not unusual with young people 40+ years ago. Can you imagine even with modern communication a 16 year old left to adapt to that situation now . He probably need a degree to figure it out

My Dad got into An Post in 1966 after doing 4 years as a telegram boy. An Post was still a state job at the time and my grandfather told him he wouldn't do any better. My granfather wasn't putting my Dad down or anything, he was just being realistic about job opportunities in West Cork at the time. Most of my Dad's older siblings had to emigrate. He was able to get married, buy a house and raise a family on one income. My Dad left school at 12. I left education at 25 with a masters degree. There's no way I could pay a mortgage and support a whole family on my income alone.

I suppose as education levels increased in Ireland from the mid 1960s onwards the minimum requirements for jobs increased as well. It's probably more unusual not to progress on to some form of third level education after school these days. Employers can do things now like set a degree as one of the minimum requirements for a lot of jobs. It just acts as a filter. I don't see this changing any time soon so I don't see a slow down in progressions to college.

KaneToad

Tefral wrote: »

...
I also believe any degree that doesn't have your end job title in it, is a waste of time...

I believe the exact opposite. I don't think education is ever a waste of time.

Eric Cartman

Granadino wrote: »

I know guys who did electrical apprenticeships, and years later are lift technicians. Good jobs, good money.

even once you do it till you get the RECI cert, after that take a few private courses on process automation and PLC programming and you can make 75-90k a year handy out. Even a RECI cert and a 2 day course in fibre splicing and cat.5/6 structured cabling install and you can get over 100k for being a data centre maintenance tech as long as you'll take the crap hours.

yoke

KaneToad wrote: »

I believe the exact opposite. I don't think education is ever a waste of time.

I'm not actually arguing against that, but more "formal education" vs "informal education". I do agree that in the past, formal college education was hugely beneficial. Its just my opinion that in the modern world (past 25 years) with Internet connectivity, when its so easy to self-teach using the same materials they use in college, college and lectures should be less relevant, but employers are often lazy and prefer to outsource their testing and knowledge checking by way of looking for degrees and certs (rather than doing in-house testing of candidates). This is usually a bad thing.

metaoblivia

I have a friend who worked for years as a barista in NYC. Oh, OP you would have laughed at her. So typical. Majored in Photography, moved to NYC after college, had these big dreams. Worked as a barista for years, up until about 30. But while she was doing that, she was building her career as a freelance photographer on the side. She had a particular interest in artists and musicians. She built relationships with bands, clubs, even venues and did great work for them. So at around 30, she was able to quit her job as a barista.

Now her full time job is freelance photography, specializing in musicians and live performance shoots. Her career is literally going to amazing clubs in NYC every night and shooting bands for magazines, for the bands' own promotional materials, etc. She also shoots events at big NYC venues. She does some standard work too, like weddings and portraits. But the bulk of her work are the musician and live event shoots. She's still young - she's got a lot of growing left to do in her career. It took some time to build up the foundation to make it as a freelancer, but now she has a way cooler job than someone who works in finance (aka me ).

And I have other friends with similar stories. They majored in the arts. For a time, they worked some job you would look down on while hustling on the side to build their actual careers. And the ones who persisted - they're all thriving. None of them are working service jobs anymore. Others pivoted into something more typical like finance or HR and their degrees weren't a significant hurdle. So they're doing well too.

My point is that the career path of someone who majors in the arts is different than the path of someone who majors in STEM. A STEM grad may spend their 20s climbing the corporate ladder at some company, but that's not the peak of their career, right? An arts grad may end up working as a barista or a grocery clerk or a waiter in their 20s, but that's not the peak of their career either. They've chosen a path that requires some risk, a lot of hustle, and a big helping of humility. They know the odds are against them but they go for it anyway. And the ones who are persistent and lean in to the risk, the hustle and the humility often end up succeeding. That may not mean making six figures or having a big house, but they make enough to live happily. And they do something that's really meaningful to them. Just because the path and the timeline looks different from a STEM grad doesn't mean it's any worse.

Wanderer78

The world needs the arts and humanities, not all humans need to be 'productive citizens', we re currently over producing most of our goods and services anyway, which is unsustainable, and a large proportion of the wealth created from such activities doesn't trickle down. We need the arts and humanities to keep us in check, to express our human side, to keep us connected, these areas are possible the most important right now

yoke

yoke wrote: »

I'm not actually arguing against that, but more "formal education" vs "informal education". I do agree that in the past, formal college education was hugely beneficial. Its just my opinion that in the modern world (past 25 years) with Internet connectivity, when its so easy to self-teach using the same materials they use in college, college and lectures should be less relevant, but employers are often lazy and prefer to outsource their testing and knowledge checking by way of looking for degrees and certs (rather than doing in-house testing of candidates). This is usually a bad thing.

Except you're looking back with the eyes of an adult, along with all the experience you've gained. Young people typically need the framework and 'discipline' of a formal educational environment. Set classes with timetables, and the appearance of being punished if they miss too many classes. There's also the social aspect of university which has value, because students are exposed to others ideas, and develop some degree of awareness about teamwork which they might not have experienced before.

Formal education has a place. It's mostly for those who aren't good at learning by themselves. I suck at self-study. I've learned to do it, but I waste a lot of time too. Having teachers/lecturers with a framework/plan about the focus of the study helps to keep me centered.

BattleCorp

Granadino wrote: »

Same here, I'd do a trade. Carpentry or a fitter. I know trades can be decimated when there's a recession, but box clever and you can still be alright.

Whatever about being a carpenter or fitter, even during a recession pipes will always leak, burners will need to be serviced/fixed/replaced etc.

JimmyVik

Im waiting for the positive discrimination about degrees.
50% of jobs have to go to people without degrees

Wanderer78

JimmyVik wrote: »

Im waiting for the positive discrimination about degrees.
50% of jobs have to go to people without degrees

....and maybe also gender neutral....

Donald Trump

Tefral wrote: »

I also believe any degree that doesn't have your end job title in it, is a waste of time.

Give us a list there of the these degrees that have job titles in them? Because there are very very few.



I know a few people whose only option might be to fight it out for a spot on the A-team! "I pity da fool"