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All Covid-19 measures are permanent, don't be a boiling frog!

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  • Options
    #3842
    King Mob
    Registered Users Posts: 25,229 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    Apoapsis Rex wrote: »
    They are on a payroll.

    Who's payroll are we on?

    Why would we be paid?
    As we've seen no conspiracy theorist seems to be able to put forward an actual conspiracy theory never mind show any information that might be a threat to a conspiracy.

    Why would anyone invest money in having people point out that conspiracy theorists are just copy pasting links and not actually providing anything of substance?

    Have you considered the possibility that people aren't paid to disagree with you and they disagree because you are wrong?


  • Options
    #3843
    Professor Moriarty
    Registered Users Posts: 14,359 ✭✭✭✭Professor Moriarty


    Such is the quality of my posting, I am very well paid per post. I need only dip in and out of this thread, now and again, and I make enough to maintain a secret lab out in the shed where I am developing a vaccine with microchips in it. I look forward to spending the rest of my life watching where every human being on the planet is located at any given time.


  • Options
    #3844
    robinph
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,083 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    Professor Moriarty wrote: »
    Such is the quality of my posting, I am very well paid per post. I need only dip in and out of this thread, now and again, and I make enough to maintain a secret lab out in the shed where I am developing a vaccine with microchips in it. I look forward to spending the rest of my life watching where every human being on the planet is located at any given time.

    So if you have the vaccines with micro chips in racket, who is in control of the everyone wearing a mask one? Is the contol of everyone by 5G still available as I'd like to claim that if possible, and I'm not sure if the 5G being the cause of covid is part of the same deal or not? Think I'd rather stick to radio signals controlling people's minds than radio signals causing the creation of new viruses.

    Someone else will have to take on the system to keep pubs closed though as I could never get my head around economics of that.


  • Options
    #3845
    PintOfView
    Registered Users Posts: 857 ✭✭✭PintOfView


    Apoapsis Rex wrote: »
    It's all an arranged situation. Don't tell me there a few posters here devoting their lives to nit picking Conspiracies here for free.

    All you have to look is scroll back and see who is posting and when. It's like a work roster. Regular posters suddenly goes quiet when another regular begins.

    Never replying to each other given their common devotion to anti-conspiracy is a bit strange.

    They are on a payroll.


    If you believe that, or believe there is any sort of coordination between posters who don't believe the conspiracy angle,
    then it's not surprising you might believe any nonsense.

    Can you not imagine people with in interest in all this stuff, just like you have,
    simply pointing out the inaccurate and mistaken things that others are putting up?


  • Options
    #3846
    Professor Moriarty
    Registered Users Posts: 14,359 ✭✭✭✭Professor Moriarty


    PintOfView wrote: »
    If you believe that, or believe there is any sort of coordination between posters who don't believe the conspiracy angle,
    then it's not surprising you might believe any nonsense.

    Can you not imagine people with in interest in all this stuff, just like you have,
    simply pointing out the inaccurate and mistaken things that others are putting up?

    Good point, Pint.

    BTW, your shift finishes at 10.00 today. I'll email Johnny to remind him to start posting then.


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  • Options
    #3847
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users Posts: 25,433 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    Apoapsis Rex wrote: »
    It's all an arranged situation. Don't tell me there a few posters here devoting their lives to nit picking Conspiracies here for free.

    All you have to look is scroll back and see who is posting and when. It's like a work roster. Regular posters suddenly goes quiet when another regular begins.

    Never replying to each other given their common devotion to anti-conspiracy is a bit strange.

    They are on a payroll.

    When George Soros makes you an offer you don't turn it down, the montly cheques are are always nice to receive :rolleyes:


  • Options
    #3848
    The Nal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,530 ✭✭✭✭The Nal


    Between the "Only Jesus Saves" links yesterday and Soros paying people to post on boards threads that are frequented by about 10 people this is the best thread around at the moment.

    Much like the US election, Trump, Q stuff, (all gone quiet now!) as we come out of these restrictions, people are having a hard time admitting to themselves that they've wasted the last year of their lives down a conspiracy rabbit hole that doesn't actually exist.

    Losing friends and family along the way too in a lot of cases and leaving a trail of nonsense online in their names about it too. It must be humiliating.


  • Options
    #3849
    arccosh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 624 ✭✭✭arccosh


    Apoapsis Rex wrote: »

    They are on a payroll.

    If only,

    I'd be making a fortune on boards alone off you freaks


  • Options
    #3850
    patnor1011
    Registered Users Posts: 2,969 ✭✭✭patnor1011


    runawaybishop wrote: »
    More dangerous? Please expand on this.

    4 clots in one million with the vaccine/s.

    167000 in one million due to covid itself.

    How is a vaccine more dangerous than the disease? Please cite some actual data, not your feelings.

    Mrna is not gene therapy. Why do you think it is? Who told you it is experimental gene therapy, do you not have a bull**** filter?

    You seems to have outdated data. Probably the same situation like when AZ was subimitting outdated data for their vaccine to look better than it is.
    Have a blast, it is really not that hard to play with this database and have a look that it is not just blod clots and certainly not 4 in one milion.
    Uk have similar database and if you want to have a look at it you may find many other rather scary side effects like blindness or people going deaf. Not to mention plethora of facial and other paralysis.
    mRNA vaccines are not vaccines but experimental genetic therapies.
    Have a fun trying to present current covid vaccines and experimental genetic therapies as safe.

    https://medalerts.org/vaersdb/findfield.php?TABLE=ON&GROUP1=CAT&EVENTS=ON&VAX=COVID19&VAXTYPES=COVID-19&VAXMAN=PFIZER/BIONTECH


  • Options
    #3851
    Professor Moriarty
    Registered Users Posts: 14,359 ✭✭✭✭Professor Moriarty


    patnor1011 wrote: »
    You seems to have outdated data. Probably the same situation like when AZ was subimitting outdated data for their vaccine to look better than it is.
    Have a blast, it is really not that hard to play with this database and have a look that it is not just blod clots and certainly not 4 in one milion.
    Uk have similar database and if you want to have a look at it you may find many other rather scary side effects like blindness or people going deaf. Not to mention plethora of facial and other paralysis.
    mRNA vaccines are not vaccines but experimental genetic therapies.
    Have a fun trying to present current covid vaccines and experimental genetic therapies as safe.

    https://medalerts.org/vaersdb/findfield.php?TABLE=ON&GROUP1=CAT&EVENTS=ON&VAX=COVID19&VAXTYPES=COVID-19&VAXMAN=PFIZER/BIONTECH

    Facebook have deplatformed that crowd. If Facebook deplatforms you, you must truly be mad. I mean, look at all the Karens who are still allowed on Facebook.


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  • Options
    #3852
    King Mob
    Registered Users Posts: 25,229 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    patnor1011 wrote: »
    Have a blast, it is really not that hard to play with this database and have a look that it is not just blod clots and certainly not 4 in one milion.
    Uk have similar database and if you want to have a look at it you may find many other rather scary side effects like blindness or people going deaf. Not to mention plethora of facial and other paralysis.
    Do you have evidence that the vaccines are causing these "scary side effects" and they they are occurring at significant levels?
    The link you provided seems to be to an anti-vaxx propaganda site.
    patnor1011 wrote: »
    mRNA vaccines are not vaccines but experimental genetic therapies.
    This statement is entirely incorrect.

    Could you also explain what this has to do with covid measures being permanent?


  • Options
    #3853
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    patnor1011 wrote: »
    You seems to have outdated data. Probably the same situation like when AZ was subimitting outdated data for their vaccine to look better than it is.
    Have a blast, it is really not that hard to play with this database and have a look that it is not just blod clots and certainly not 4 in one milion.
    Uk have similar database and if you want to have a look at it you may find many other rather scary side effects like blindness or people going deaf. Not to mention plethora of facial and other paralysis.
    mRNA vaccines are not vaccines but experimental genetic therapies.
    Have a fun trying to present current covid vaccines and experimental genetic therapies as safe.

    https://medalerts.org/vaersdb/findfield.php?TABLE=ON&GROUP1=CAT&EVENTS=ON&VAX=COVID19&VAXTYPES=COVID-19&VAXMAN=PFIZER/BIONTECH

    What vaccine is 100% "safe"


  • Options
    #3854
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users Posts: 25,433 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    patnor1011 wrote: »
    You seems to have outdated data. Probably the same situation like when AZ was subimitting outdated data for their vaccine to look better than it is.
    Have a blast, it is really not that hard to play with this database and have a look that it is not just blod clots and certainly not 4 in one milion.
    Uk have similar database and if you want to have a look at it you may find many other rather scary side effects like blindness or people going deaf. Not to mention plethora of facial and other paralysis.
    mRNA vaccines are not vaccines but experimental genetic therapies.
    Have a fun trying to present current covid vaccines and experimental genetic therapies as safe.

    https://medalerts.org/vaersdb/findfield.php?TABLE=ON&GROUP1=CAT&EVENTS=ON&VAX=COVID19&VAXTYPES=COVID-19&VAXMAN=PFIZER/BIONTECH

    Debunked.

    https://apnews.com/article/fact-checking-afs:Content:9957832237
    CLAIM: Screenshots of the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System show people who have died after receiving the COVID-19 vaccine.

    AP’S ASSESSMENT: Missing context. The VAERS system is an unverified reporting system that does not determine if a vaccine caused the events that are reported.
    Posts online are sharing VAERS data without any context. Screenshots of the data being shared online give a vague description to paint a much darker version of reality and mislead social media users into believing that the vaccine is causing more adverse events than the public is being told.

    “VAERS - A MUST WATCH!!!!,” one video showing VAERS data on Instagram said. “I bet you haven’t seen any of THIS information about the COVID-19 vaccine covered on CNN, or any off the other treasonous corrupt mainstream media!”

    Some screenshots show only a VAERS identification number, the age of the person who was vaccinated, the day they received the vaccine and the day they died to suggest that people are dying from the vaccine. The posts with misleading captions are being widely shared across social media platforms.


  • Options
    #3855
    runawaybishop
    Registered Users Posts: 9,502 ✭✭✭runawaybishop


    patnor1011 wrote: »
    You seems to have outdated data. Probably the same situation like when AZ was subimitting outdated data for their vaccine to look better than it is.
    Have a blast, it is really not that hard to play with this database and have a look that it is not just blod clots and certainly not 4 in one milion.
    Uk have similar database and if you want to have a look at it you may find many other rather scary side effects like blindness or people going deaf. Not to mention plethora of facial and other paralysis.
    mRNA vaccines are not vaccines but experimental genetic therapies.
    Have a fun trying to present current covid vaccines and experimental genetic therapies as safe.

    https://medalerts.org/vaersdb/findfield.php?TABLE=ON&GROUP1=CAT&EVENTS=ON&VAX=COVID19&VAXTYPES=COVID-19&VAXMAN=PFIZER/BIONTECH



    Please posted cited sources. That source is uncited
    Remember your original claim is the vaccines are worse than covid.

    Please explain how a vaccine isn't a vaccine and how it will modify DNA. Your original claim was that the vaccines are experimental gene modifications.

    Much appreciated.


  • Options
    #3856
    King Mob
    Registered Users Posts: 25,229 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »
    Debunked.

    https://apnews.com/article/fact-checking-afs:Content:9957832237
    What's funny is this is the same "died with or died from" stuff conspiracy theorists were accusing people of in regards to covid.


  • Options
    #3857
    runawaybishop
    Registered Users Posts: 9,502 ✭✭✭runawaybishop


    King Mob wrote: »
    What's funny is this is the same "died with or died from" stuff conspiracy theorists were accusing people of in regards to covid.

    He's just trying to move the goalposts again. Link dumping to suspect websites that do not claim what he originally claimed.


  • Options
    #3858
    King Mob
    Registered Users Posts: 25,229 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    Some info about the National Vaccine Information Center that was just used as a source:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Vaccine_Information_Center
    The National Vaccine Information Center (NVIC), founded under the name Dissatisfied Parents Together (DPT) in 1982, is an American 501(c)(3) organization that has been widely criticized as a leading source of fearmongering and misinformation about vaccines.
    Although the NVIC claims to be supported primarily by small donations, 40% of its funding came from the anti-vaccination activist and distributor of vitamin supplements Joseph Mercola, who provided $2.9 million between 2009 and 2018. The funds were provided through Mercola's Natural Health Research Foundation.[24]
    The journalist Michael Specter described the NVIC as:
    "... an organization that, based on its name, certainly sounds like a federal agency. Actually, it's just the opposite: the NVIC is the most powerful anti-vaccine organization in America, and its relationship with the U.S. government consists almost entirely of opposing federal efforts aimed at vaccinating children."[2]


  • Options
    #3859
    patnor1011
    Registered Users Posts: 2,969 ✭✭✭patnor1011


    King Mob wrote: »
    Do you have evidence that the vaccines are causing these "scary side effects" and they they are occurring at significant levels?
    The link you provided seems to be to an anti-vaxx propaganda site.


    This statement is entirely incorrect.

    Could you also explain what this has to do with covid measures being permanent?

    Seems to be... Right, same as when back in march 2020 people said it seems that vitamin D deficiency may cause covid infection go severe with possible loss of life. That was favorite cause to send people to conspiracy theories forum if you dared to mention that.

    Seriously? That website is not covid conspiracy, they track vaccine adverse reactions since 1981 and reports are submitted not only by family members but also by vaccine providers. You need to spend more time researching something, 10 seconds glance is worth exactly nothing.
    UK does have similar website so again have a blast and try to spend more than 10 seconds of your precious time...

    If you fancy government databases then go for this one:
    https://coronavirus-yellowcard.mhra.gov.uk/


  • Options
    #3860
    patnor1011
    Registered Users Posts: 2,969 ✭✭✭patnor1011


    runawaybishop wrote: »
    Please posted cited sources. That source is uncited
    Remember your original claim is the vaccines are worse than covid.

    Please explain how a vaccine isn't a vaccine and how it will modify DNA. Your original claim was that the vaccines are experimental gene modifications.

    Much appreciated.

    In case you do have reading comprehension problems go back and read my post again.
    I have said that "For anyone under 50 with reasonably good health it is unnecessary and due to possible side effects it is more dangerous than covid itself."

    I have also said "AZ stopped again, J&J stopped and nobody knows yet what mRNA will do in future as it is quite new gene therapy with zero long term testing and data."

    How did you extrapolate that I have said it changes or modify your genes is a mystery to me.
    Try to read slowly.


  • Options
    #3861
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users Posts: 25,433 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    patnor1011 wrote: »
    In case you do have reading comprehension problems go back and read my post again.
    I have said that "For anyone under 50 with reasonably good health it is unnecessary and due to possible side effects it is more dangerous than covid itself."

    I have also said "AZ stopped again, J&J stopped and nobody knows yet what mRNA will do in future as it is quite new gene therapy with zero long term testing and data."

    How did you extrapolate that I have said it changes or modify your genes is a mystery to me.
    Try to read slowly.

    It's not though!


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    #3862
    King Mob
    Registered Users Posts: 25,229 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    patnor1011 wrote: »
    Seems to be... Right, same as when back in march 2020 people said it seems that vitamin D deficiency may cause covid infection go severe with possible loss of life. That was favorite cause to send people to conspiracy theories forum if you dared to mention that. .
    Sorry, this is a bit incoherent.
    Could you try again, but focus on addressing my points and questions, thanks.
    patnor1011 wrote: »
    Seriously? That website is not covid conspiracy, they track vaccine adverse reactions since 1981 and reports are submitted not only by family members but also by vaccine providers. You need to spend more time researching something, 10 seconds glance is worth exactly nothing.
    No, you linked to a anti-vaxx propaganda site.

    You did not link to the VAERS site. The reason why that propaganda site doesn't actually provide links to the VAERS site because it states pretty prominently on the front page:
    Key considerations and limitations of VAERS data:

    Vaccine providers are encouraged to report any clinically significant health problem following vaccination to VAERS, whether or not they believe the vaccine was the cause.
    Reports may include incomplete, inaccurate, coincidental and unverified information.
    The number of reports alone cannot be interpreted or used to reach conclusions about the existence, severity, frequency, or rates of problems associated with vaccines.
    VAERS data is limited to vaccine adverse event reports received between 1990 and the most recent date for which data are available.
    VAERS data do not represent all known safety information for a vaccine and should be interpreted in the context of other scientific information.
    https://vaers.hhs.gov/data.html
    patnor1011 wrote: »
    UK does have similar website so again have a blast and try to spend more than 10 seconds of your precious time...
    But if the UK does have a similar site to VAERS (not the propaganda site you link), the same thing applies. That information cannot be used to reach the conclusion you have.

    So again, please provide some scientific evidence to support your claim that the vaccines cause blindness/paralysis at significant levels.
    A scientific study published in a peer reviewed journal would be best.


  • Options
    #3863
    King Mob
    Registered Users Posts: 25,229 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    patnor1011 wrote: »
    How did you extrapolate that I have said it changes or modify your genes is a mystery to me.
    Try to read slowly.
    Gene therapy is a medical field which focuses on the genetic modification of cells to produce a therapeutic effect[1]
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gene_therapy

    So you are now saying that the vaccine isn't gene therapy?

    Do you agree that the vaccines cannot change people's DNA, or do you dispute this?


  • Options
    #3864
    patnor1011
    Registered Users Posts: 2,969 ✭✭✭patnor1011


    King Mob wrote: »
    Sorry, this is a bit incoherent.
    Could you try again, but focus on addressing my points and questions, thanks.


    No, you linked to a anti-vaxx propaganda site.

    You did not link to the VAERS site. The reason why that propaganda site doesn't actually provide links to the VAERS site because it states pretty prominently on the front page:

    https://vaers.hhs.gov/data.html

    But if the UK does have a similar site to VAERS (not the propaganda site you link), the same thing applies. That information cannot be used to reach the conclusion you have.
    Actually it can. We know how different age groups are affected by covid and now we learn that for some reason particularly young woman are very suspectible to get sometimes serious side effects from AZ vaccine. Some even died. J&J seems to start having the same issue.
    King Mob wrote: »
    So again, please provide some scientific evidence to support your claim that the vaccines cause blindness/paralysis at significant levels.
    A scientific study published in a peer reviewed journal would be best.

    Yep, just give it a time.
    You were laughing when vitamin D was menioned too now we have government report stating D defficiency was detected in all severe cases of covid illness.
    Since we only started long term trials with mass vaccination there will be plenty of reports coming soon since there is no shortage of vaccine volunteers.


  • Options
    #3865
    King Mob
    Registered Users Posts: 25,229 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    patnor1011 wrote: »
    Yep, just give it a time.
    Give what time?
    patnor1011 wrote: »
    You were laughing when vitamin D was menioned too now we have government report stating D defficiency was detected in all severe cases of covid illness.
    Again, incoherent. I have no idea what you're talking about.
    patnor1011 wrote: »
    Since we only started long term trials with mass vaccination there will be plenty of reports coming soon since there is no shortage of vaccine volunteers.
    But you claimed that the reports are in now. You falsely claimed that the data showed the vaccines were dangerous.
    If you're claiming now that we have to wait, you've no basis for claiming the vaccines are dangerous.

    You're dodging the points because you cannot address them, as per typical conspiracy theory tactics.
    If you had a serious point, you are robbing yourself and other conspiracy theorists of credibility by dodging these very simple points.


  • Options
    #3866
    patnor1011
    Registered Users Posts: 2,969 ✭✭✭patnor1011


    King Mob wrote: »
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gene_therapy

    So you are now saying that the vaccine isn't gene therapy?

    Do you agree that the vaccines cannot change people's DNA, or do you dispute this?

    Again. You people need to start reading slowly and not take things out of context.
    I have said that mRNA vaccines are experimental gene therapy.
    Since they are very new they are experimental and nothing can change that but time.


  • Options
    #3867
    King Mob
    Registered Users Posts: 25,229 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    patnor1011 wrote: »
    Actually it can. We know how different age groups are affected by covid and now we learn that for some reason particularly young woman are very suspectible to get sometimes serious side effects from AZ vaccine. Some even died. J&J seems to start having the same issue.
    Again from the source of the data:
    Key considerations and limitations of VAERS data:

    Vaccine providers are encouraged to report any clinically significant health problem following vaccination to VAERS, whether or not they believe the vaccine was the cause.
    Reports may include incomplete, inaccurate, coincidental and unverified information.

    The number of reports alone cannot be interpreted or used to reach conclusions about the existence, severity, frequency, or rates of problems associated with vaccines.

    VAERS data is limited to vaccine adverse event reports received between 1990 and the most recent date for which data are available.

    VAERS data do not represent all known safety information for a vaccine and should be interpreted in the context of other scientific information.

    https://vaers.hhs.gov/data.html

    I have highlighted the important points as you seem to have missed them last time.
    Perhaps you should read more slowly?


  • Options
    #3868
    King Mob
    Registered Users Posts: 25,229 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    patnor1011 wrote: »
    Again. You people need to start reading slowly and not take things out of context.
    I have said that mRNA vaccines are experimental gene therapy.
    Since they are very new they are experimental and nothing can change that but time.
    Ok. That statement is still false.

    However, you seem to be contradicting yourself.

    You claim that the vaccines are "gene therapy".
    By definition this means that they alter genes.
    You are also saying that the vaccine doesn't alter genes.

    So how can it be "gene therapy"?


  • Options
    #3869
    patnor1011
    Registered Users Posts: 2,969 ✭✭✭patnor1011


    King Mob wrote: »
    Give what time?
    Long term vaccine adverse reactions trials are not being finished yet. Some of them plan to finish them and go through data some time next year or two.
    King Mob wrote: »
    Again, incoherent. I have no idea what you're talking about.
    Sure you dont. For self proclaimed anti conspiracy expert it is always hard to admit being wrong.
    King Mob wrote: »
    But you claimed that the reports are in now. You falsely claimed that the data showed the vaccines were dangerous.
    If you're claiming now that we have to wait, you've no basis for claiming the vaccines are dangerous.
    Reports are surely in otherwise we would not have scores of states stopping AZ vaccine and changing recommendations to who can and who should not take that particular one. More will come as time pass. Oh so every claim that AZ vaccine does cause blood clots is false claim? Try harder.
    King Mob wrote: »
    You're dodging the points because you cannot address them, as per typical conspiracy theory tactics.
    If you had a serious point, you are robbing yourself and other conspiracy theorists of credibility by dodging these very simple points.

    This is your favorite line you repeat it with slight variation constantly.
    The fact that vaccines do cause injuries and even death in some cases is not conspiracy theory but a fact.


  • Options
    #3870
    namloc1980
    Registered Users Posts: 18,103 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    patnor1011 wrote: »
    You seems to have outdated data. Probably the same situation like when AZ was subimitting outdated data for their vaccine to look better than it is.
    Have a blast, it is really not that hard to play with this database and have a look that it is not just blod clots and certainly not 4 in one milion.
    Uk have similar database and if you want to have a look at it you may find many other rather scary side effects like blindness or people going deaf. Not to mention plethora of facial and other paralysis.
    mRNA vaccines are not vaccines but experimental genetic therapies.
    Have a fun trying to present current covid vaccines and experimental genetic therapies as safe.

    https://medalerts.org/vaersdb/findfield.php?TABLE=ON&GROUP1=CAT&EVENTS=ON&VAX=COVID19&VAXTYPES=COVID-19&VAXMAN=PFIZER/BIONTECH

    The first record on that site has the following side effect: "Patient experienced mild numbness traveling from injection site up and down arm that subsided over 20 minutes." Scary stuff.


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    #3871
    patnor1011
    Registered Users Posts: 2,969 ✭✭✭patnor1011


    King Mob wrote: »
    Again from the source of the data:

    [/B]
    https://vaers.hhs.gov/data.html

    I have highlighted the important points as you seem to have missed them last time.
    Perhaps you should read more slowly?

    Vaers is just one from plenty sources. Plenty of governments paused or stopped using certain vaccines because of their own research and reports.
    You seems to have some issue with vaers and think they are the only source and refuse acknowledge that there are many other places like government panels or universities doing their own research.


This discussion has been closed.
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