Predict Irish XXIII for 2023 RWC

salmocab · 05-11-2019 9:59pm

Cork29 wrote: »

How many matches he play for Leinster/Munster maybe he simply not good enough.

Sam arnold where is his career going at the moment?

Maybe he isn’t but maybe he would have been without the experiment. I can’t see players taking that risk, especially guys like Mc closkey the chance of success is tiny compared with the chance of it stalling someone’s career.

Hands Like Flippers · 05-11-2019 10:11pm

Hayden Hyde in the current Ulster Academy was a back rower who now plays 12 or 13.

Cork 29 is IMHO over stating his argument for emphasis but I do agree re athletes but don't think they all need to be massive. Take Kolbe and Faf De Klerk. Both miles ahead of the incumbents who we played at the WC in their respective positions. I know Murray used to be the best etc but right now he looks pedestrian compared to FDK or GD of Wales etc with their speed etc.

Agree re younger players being easier to move around but I'm pretty sure this goes on already in underage teams. I believe there is now a massive push for athletic performance in underage stuff at provincial and national level. Hopefully it will pay dividends later. After all Tom Curry watched the last WC from the common room at school.

Hands Like Flippers · 05-11-2019 10:15pm

Cork29 wrote: »

Where is McCloskey career going?

Same for Sam arnold, with new signing 4th choice centre in Munster.

Mccloskey is first choice 12 at Ulster tbf and good for it as well. Forging a good career at his native province. Pity Farrell hadn't been allowed to stay. That would have been a great partnership.

Look the next coach coming in might really fancy Mccloskey for Ireland. Look at Trimble. He couldn't get a fair hearing under the previous coach. Straight back under Joe and was player of the 6 nations the next year I believe.

Hands Like Flippers · 05-11-2019 10:16pm

Is Jackson a possibility now? Or is he forever banished?

The Lost Sheep · 05-11-2019 10:17pm

Cork29 wrote: »

Bingo that is the point i am making. You understand me at last.

The main issue is the quality of athlete we had on the pitch. Not enough explosive athletes.

Who in the pack would you consider a ball carry in the pack bar James Ryan. CJ yes a few years ago anymore.

If we are to make a impression at world level we need our best athletes on the pitcch.

I am sorry to say ball carrying was a major issue

you can keep repeating same sentences but when unable to back it up properly you are wasting everyone's time. Furlong and several others also good carriers. These players wouldnt be able to suddenly be big ball carriers if forwards as they would have to do so much other work.

Cork29 wrote: »

Can you show me any clips at this world cup of these players ball carrying?

As i keep saying we need to get explosive athletes on the pitch was have some that can be worked in

Brian Corcoran, Diarmuid Osullivan lots more examples if you are a hurler you can play anywhere. Same wiith rugby.

it isnt the case with rugby at all that you can play anywhere. Skillset varies hugely per position.

Cork29 wrote: »

They have 4 years to get to the world cup, can they not be trained to play the position?

Has Ireland ever won a knock out match in the world cup in pretty much a 8 team competition? Need to think outside the box. Get the best/explosive athletes trained up...

4 yeas isnt right to change. Why would provinces agree to this?
we havent won a knock out game. This wouldn't change this

Cork29 wrote: »

How is it dangerous.

I am saying we switch players, get our best athletes on the pitch?

Have you seen the size of Mccloskey, have you seen him off load this is the kind of athlete we need. Have you seen his ball carrying. Simple as.

I do not think he gets in the team in current position. For a number 6 he could be unreal with his skill set.

I am not saying give him number 6 jersey now

it isnt hat simple. Your whole mindset is different as a back compared to a forward. Mccloskey is big but that doesnt mean he would be good as a backrowr. His offloading etc make him an excellent back and he wouldnt be able to do a lot of what he is good at if he went into forwards

The Lost Sheep · 05-11-2019 10:18pm

Hands Like Flippers wrote: »

Is Jackson a possibility now? Or is he forever banished?

no chance. Irfu would never sign him or play him. Wouldnt be worth all the hassle it would bring.

sydthebeat · 05-11-2019 10:24pm

Hands Like Flippers wrote: »

..... After all Tom Curry watched the last WC from the common room at school.

as did jordan larmour...

if youre good enough, your good enough... you cant say ireland doesn't give youth a chance. we dont have the player pool to be so picky.

and while we're on player pool... England have approx 450% more senior males playing rugby than ireland.. SA have approx 350% more.

we simply do not produce the number of huge physical specimens like SA, as they have the dutch gene as a plus as well...

sydthebeat · 05-11-2019 10:30pm

Cork29 wrote: »

i never said they where small, just a lot are not dynamic athletes.

Compare or hooker to any other team. See Cian Healy art 43 mins againist Japan.

Our dynamic players have too much mileage on the clock like sander, omahney etc

your drunk... go home...

sydthebeat · 05-11-2019 10:40pm

Cork29 wrote: »

expalin this.

who are sander, omahney ?

Cork29 wrote: »

Can you show me any footage from the world cup of any of our forwards ripping it up?

did i argue that we were doing this ??? no i didnt

read the posts which counter your ones... you might learn something

Hands Like Flippers · 05-11-2019 10:46pm

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

no chance. Irfu would never sign him or play him. Wouldnt be worth all the hassle it would bring.

Pity.

Faugheen · 05-11-2019 10:52pm

Hands Like Flippers wrote: »

Pity.

He made his bed.

realhorrorshow · 05-11-2019 11:25pm

Wales do consistently well without particularly impressive athletes, they just made a RWC semi with pretty much no ball carriers in the pack.

Hands Like Flippers · 05-11-2019 11:54pm

Faugheen wrote: »

He made his bed.

He certainly did. No forgiveness ever.

connachta · 06-11-2019 1:51pm

realhorrorshow wrote: »

Wales do consistently well without particularly impressive athletes, they just made a RWC semi with pretty much no ball carriers in the pack.

And lost it because of that (by few, but lost)

ionadnapokot · 06-11-2019 2:09pm

After RWC 1995 Corrigan, Wallace, Davidson, O’Kelly, Ward, Dawson, DO’C, Tierney, Humphreys, Mostyn, Maggs, BOD, & Bishop were the new caps in the starting XV at RWC 1999: 14 new caps. 14!!

After RWC 1999 Hayes, Easterby, Gleeson, Stringer, O’Gara & Horgan in the starting XV at RWC 2003: 6 new caps

After RWC 2003 Leamy was the only new cap in the starting XV at RWC 2011: 1 new cap

After RWC 2007 Healy, Ross, SOB, Murray, Earls & Sexton(v Aus) in starting XV at RWC 2011: 6 new caps

After RWC 2011 O’Mahony was the only new cap in the starting XV at RWC 2015: 1 new cap

After RWC 2015 CJ, Stockdale, Aki & Ringrose were the new caps in the starting XV at RWC 2019: 4 new caps

For RWC 2023? Maybe 5 or 6 new caps.
Ireland need new blood at Hooker, SH, back three & in the back row. Could do with another LH and 12

Very interested to se how Farrell goes about the 12 position.
Having played there himself, his involvement with Burgess & experience under Joe - will it be bosh or guile?

realhorrorshow · 06-11-2019 2:21pm

connachta wrote: »

And lost it because of that (by few, but lost)

Wales won the grand slam and then lost by 3 points to the World Champions in the semi while they were missing loads of players through injury. They did all this with players far less athletic than ours. The notion that filling our team with physical freaks is the key to success is silly.

connachta · 06-11-2019 2:34pm

realhorrorshow wrote: »

Wales won the grand slam and then lost by 3 points to the World Champions in the semi while they were missing loads of players through injury. They did all this with players far less athletic than ours. The notion that filling our team with physical freaks is the key to success is silly.

yeah both finalist had the 2 most physical teams of the competition, but it's silly.
Japan is the model, South-Africa gave them a huge physical beating during 2nd half, but you know, shinny rugby...

Even when classic well-balanced rugby gets his triumph, it's about shinny rugby

Jump_In_Jack · 06-11-2019 3:04pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

Hooper and pocock are as far from center type atheletes as you could imagine???

Peter SDT, world player of the year, is a bullocking 120kg 6' 6" monster who plays at seven.

Michael Hooper is 20kg lighter and a whole 6" smaller

I think you've got some things confused in your head.

Just to correct this misunderstanding,
PSDT wears no.7 but as is the custom in South Africa he plays blind side.
So you must compare him to No. 6 on every other team.

sydthebeat · 06-11-2019 3:21pm

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

Just to correct this misunderstanding,
PSDT wears no.7 but as is the custom in South Africa he plays blind side.
So you must compare him to No. 6 on every other team.

the whole argument of the person im arguing with is that they do not differentiate between the different positions and the core skill sets to play that position...

so the comparison of very much valid, and actually is the whole point of my dissection of their argument.

sydthebeat · 06-11-2019 4:31pm

Cork29 wrote: »

Can you tell me a 6 6 120kg athlete we have currently for the backrow?

tadhg beirne is 6' 6" and 114 kg.

can you tell me a 6' 6" 120 kg backrower that plays for ANY other tier 1 team than South Africa?

Podge_irl · 06-11-2019 4:32pm

Cork29 wrote: »

Can you tell me a 6 6 120kg athlete we have currently for the backrow?

Is there a 6'6" 120kg centre floating around that I'm unaware of?

realhorrorshow · 06-11-2019 5:03pm

Cork29 wrote: »

We always look down on Welsh players, but look at there CVs to ours on international terms.

When the chips are down they usually beat us when we expect to win

Are you not undercutting your own point? You’re saying wales usually beat us but they don’t have any 6’6 120kg athletes either.

Mr Tickle · 06-11-2019 5:15pm

realhorrorshow wrote: »

Are you not undercutting your own point? You’re saying wales usually beat us but they don’t have any 6’6 120kg athletes either.

We'll be **** out of luck when they find a 6'7" 122kg fella though :pac:

ionadnapokot · 06-11-2019 6:35pm

Ruling out Leavy, P’OM, Murray & Henshaw because of injury profiles

1. O’Sullivan
2. Kelleher
3. Furlong
4. Henderson
5. Ryan
6. Beirne
7. Penny
8. Conan
9. Casey
10. Carbery
11. Stockdale / Lowe
12. ?? T.Farrell? C.Farrell? Convert an OH e.g. Frawely, Hawkshaw
13. Ringrose
14. Lowe / Larmour
15. Larmour / Lowe

16. Rhys Marshall
17. Michael Milne
18. Porter
19. C.Ryan
20. Dorris
21. G-Park
22. R.Byrne
23. Lowry

Not a RWC winning side.
2011 was our best XV. A crying shame we played into the hands of the Welsh with RO'G & SO'B

realhorrorshow · 06-11-2019 8:30pm

I'll have a go:

1. Tom Clarkson (23)
2. Rónan Kelleher (25)
3. Tadhg Furlong (30)
4. Iain Henderson (31)
5. James Ryan (27)
6. Dan Leavy (29)
7. Josh van der Flier (30)
8. Jack Conan (31)
9. Craig Casey (24)
10. Joey Carbery (27)
11. Jacob Stockdale (27)
12. Robbie Henshaw (30)
13. Garry Ringrose (28)
14. Andrew Conway (32)
15. Jordan Larmour (26)

Was kind of stuck for choices at loosehead due to Healy, Kilcoyne, and McGrath's age profiles. Do think that Leinster might switch one of tightheads over. Same with Kelleher, don't like to tip players for international caps before they've played in Europe but there's a big gap there for him to fill.

There are loads of talented second and back rows all around the country but haven't seen enough of them to back them just yet.

Went for Casey but wouldn't rule out Murray making a Healy-esque comeback. Went for Casey because I'm not fully convinced by any of the other options but think there's a good chance he might spend a lot of his early career as an impact sub. Went for a pretty boring selection from 10 out, I'm sure there'll be some players who will force their way into contention over the next few years but it's hard to know exactly who just now.

mogwai81 · 06-11-2019 9:00pm

1. Eric O’Sullivan
2. Ronan Kelleher
3. Tadhg Furlong
4. Ryan Baird
5. James Ryan
6. Dan Leavy
7. Josh van der Flier
8. Jack Conan
9. Craig Casey
10. Joey Carbery
11. Aaron Sexton
12. Stuart McCloskey
13. Gary Ringrose
14. Jordan Larmour
15. Jacob Stockdale

The Lost Sheep · 06-11-2019 9:12pm

mogwai81 wrote: »

1. Eric O’Sullivan
2. Ronan Kelleher
3. Tadhg Furlong
4. Ryan Baird
5. James Ryan
6. Dan Leavy
7. Josh van der Flier
8. Jack Conan
9. Craig Casey
10. Joey Carbery
11. Aaron Sexton
12. Stuart McCloskey
13. Gary Ringrose
14. Jordan Larmour
15. Jacob Stockdale

cant see any side being that dominated by leinster forwards.
Would see wycherly, scannell pushing as well as some Ulster guys.

mogwai81 · 06-11-2019 9:31pm

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

cant see any side being that dominated by leinster forwards.
Would see wycherly, scannell pushing as well as some Ulster guys.

Fair comment. I did notice that the forward pack was nearly entirely from Leinster. The likes of Henderson and Scannell could easily be first choice. I would love to see a ball carrying 6 come along between now and the next World Cup.

salmocab · 06-11-2019 10:10pm

mogwai81 wrote: »

Fair comment. I did notice that the forward pack was nearly entirely from Leinster. The likes of Henderson and Scannell could easily be first choice. I would love to see a ball carrying 6 come along between now and the next World Cup.

That backrow has a more than reasonable chance of not being even the Leinster backrow in 4 years time.

mogwai81 · 06-11-2019 10:18pm

salmocab wrote: »

That backrow has a more than reasonable chance of not being even the Leinster backrow in 4 years time.

Also true. The injury profiles of Leavy, van der Flier and Conan would make it unlikely. While Deegan, Doris, Penny, Murphy etc could overtake those in pole position at the moment.

I think you can easily punch holes in any predicted team four years out. I just hope more players are replaced due to the younger players being better and not due to early retirements.

Dubinusa · 07-11-2019 6:07am

E.o.s
Kelleher
Furlong
Ryan
Henderson
Doris
Penny
O'Sullivan
Casey
Ben Healy
Stockdale
Hawkshaw
Ringrose
Wren
Larmour

Wycherly
McBurney
Porter
Baird
Deegan
Luke
Harry Byrne
Lowry.

JJJackal · 07-11-2019 7:50pm

Squidgy Black wrote: »

Have you seen McCloskey clear a ruck that isn't just another back or jackal against an opposition backrow? Or take on a carry from the base of a ruck? Or pack down in a scrum? Lift in a lineout?

They're all fundamental skills that a backrow needs and are something that some players will just pick up in a handful of training sessions. For the players safety too, you can't just slap them into those kind of positions open to clear outs without the correct body position or else they'll be folded, the amount of serious injuries that occur to top level backrows like Leavy, Warburton etc who have played there for years. On top of that, Ulster have no requirement for McCloskey to play 6, why would they agree to it?

I think there are a selection of positions that lend to changing between:

1, 2, 3

4,5,6,7,8

9,10,12,15

11,12,13,14,15

Not sure you can easily swap between prop and out half for example or indeed scrum half and any position in the forwards

BakeMeACake · 07-11-2019 8:00pm

The entire Dublin 9 in a row GAA team maybe

The Lost Sheep · 07-11-2019 8:35pm

JJJackal wrote: »

I think there are a selection of positions that lend to changing between:

1, 2, 3

4,5,6,7,8

9,10,12,15

11,12,13,14,15

Not sure you can easily swap between prop and out half for example or indeed scrum half and any position in the forwards

you can move backrow to front row. Regularly happens for those who wont progress further in backrow due to size so become hookers especially.

Wouldnt agree with 9 and 12 as well. Would see 9 with 11, 14 as well...

JJJackal · 07-11-2019 9:39pm

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

you can move backrow to front row. Regularly happens for those who wont progress further in backrow due to size so become hookers especially.

Wouldnt agree with 9 and 12 as well. Would see 9 with 11, 14 as well...

I agree re backrows becoming frontrows - this would typically done at underage. You couldnt regularly swap from one position to another for example. Its very unlikely to happen to a guy aged >22 I think and you couldnt do it on a match day.

Marmion is an example of someone who has played 11 or 14. Fair enough

Predict Irish XXIII for 2023 RWC

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