Predict Irish XXIII for 2023 RWC

The Lost Sheep · 05-11-2019 02:56PM

Cork29 wrote: »

I can name a team that has never won a knockout world cup match.

Did we have out best 15 athletes on the pitch sadly no

We need to try something?

we do but moving guys who've never been backs to centre is not the answer. It would be ridiculous to try it.
And can you name players who were pros and were converted from backrow to centre. Plenty done it at age grade but if it was this simple then you have plenty of successful examples

Quin_Dub · 05-11-2019 03:01PM

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

we do but moving guys who've never been backs to centre is not the answer. It would be ridiculous to try it.
And can you name players who were pros and were converted from backrow to centre. Plenty done it at age grade but if it was this simple then you have plenty of successful examples

This exactly - I absolutely think we should be looking at the current top prospect 18/19 year olds and having discussions about this kind of thing. Trying to move a 25 yr old is WAY too late.

Cork29 · 05-11-2019 03:02PM

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

we do but moving guys who've never been backs to centre is not the answer. It would be ridiculous to try it.
And can you name players who were pros and were converted from backrow to centre. Plenty done it at age grade but if it was this simple then you have plenty of successful examples

We have a small pick the players i mentioned will not be playing centre for ireland in 4 years time

The way rugby is played less of a difference between backs and forwards.

Brian O’Driscoll one of the best for poaching a ball etc

The Lost Sheep · 05-11-2019 03:09PM

Quin_Dub wrote: »

This exactly - I absolutely think we should be looking at the current top prospect 18/19 year olds and having discussions about this kind of thing. Trying to move a 25 yr old is WAY too late.

25 is too late for pro rugby but you can see it happen at AIL level albeit very irregularly

Cork29 wrote: »

We have a small pick the players i mentioned will not be playing centre for ireland in 4 years time

The way rugby is played less of a difference between backs and forwards.

Brian O’Driscoll one of the best for poaching a ball etc

there is still huge differences though and yes o Driscoll was excellent at turning ball over that doesnt mean he would have made an excellent backrow.
Are you going to provide examples to back your point up then?

Cork29 · 05-11-2019 03:28PM

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

25 is too late for pro rugby but you can see it happen at AIL level albeit very irregularly

there is still huge differences though and yes o Driscoll was excellent at turning ball over that doesnt mean he would have made an excellent backrow.
Are you going to provide examples to back your point up then?

I can not give you examples.

We have such a small pool of players every effort should be made to make best use.

So what if it now work out what is lost. The players i mentioned are not going to be first choice in the centre.

I even go as far as say sam aronold is 4 if not 5 choice in his position at munster.

We need to have our best most dynamic players on the pitch simple

The Lost Sheep · 05-11-2019 03:34PM

Cork29 wrote: »

I can not give you examples.

We have such a small pool of players every effort should be made to make best use.

So what if it now work out what is lost. The players i mentioned are not going to be first choice in the centre.

I even go as far as say sam aronold is 4 if not 5 choice in his position at munster.

We need to have our best most dynamic players on the pitch simple

this wouldn't be best use of players. They may not be first choice centres but would be nowhere near good enough as backrow. You cant just say these would be better than actual out and out backrows. They're not more dynamic than many backrows or at least you cant show they would be more influential on games than guys who've always played backrow

cson · 05-11-2019 03:35PM

Sure why don't we just start practicing eugenics and be done with it? Lab grown players for each position.

Cork29 · 05-11-2019 06:21PM

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

this wouldn't be best use of players. They may not be first choice centres but would be nowhere near good enough as backrow. You cant just say these would be better than actual out and out backrows. They're not more dynamic than many backrows or at least you cant show they would be more influential on games than guys who've always played backrow[/quot

How can you say not best use of players ? Did you see us at the world cup we were like a limp biscuit. We need some wrecking balls hard running ball carrriers.

These players are international centres i would be quite sure they have the skillset

The Lost Sheep · 05-11-2019 06:35PM

Cork29 wrote: »

How can you say not best use of players? Did you see us at the world cup we were like a limp biscuit. We need some wrecking balls hard running ball carrriers.

These players are international centres i would be quite sure they have the skillset

maybe we do. But moving guys from centre isnt thebanswer and suggesting it shows a complete lack of awareness of both the players and the positions and how tough it would be to change position. It wasnt wrecking ball ball carriers that we were lacking. It was a lot more than that

salmocab · 05-11-2019 06:40PM

I’m sure the players would be delighted to see their careers go down the spout for an experiment.

Cork29 · 05-11-2019 06:43PM

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

maybe we do. But moving guys from centre isnt thebanswer and suggesting it shows a complete lack of awareness of both the players and the positions and how tough it would be to change position. It wasnt wrecking ball ball carriers that we were lacking. It was a lot more than that

Bingo that is the point i am making. You understand me at last.

The main issue is the quality of athlete we had on the pitch. Not enough explosive athletes.

Who in the pack would you consider a ball carry in the pack bar James Ryan. CJ yes a few years ago anymore.

If we are to make a impression at world level we need our best athletes on the pitcch.

I am sorry to say ball carrying was a major issue

sydthebeat · 05-11-2019 07:18PM

We're very close to shark jumping territory here.

We had plenty of ball carrying threat up front. Healy furlong and porter often make good ground around the fringes when playing for Leinster. Henderson is a fantastic explosive ball carrier, one of his main strengths. Ryan simply never goes backwards in the tight. CJ obviously can do it, Conan is great in the loose. It's not JVDFs main strength but the guy has serious wheels. POM was a winger at an earlier age, but concentrates not these days on creating space for others. Leavy is very powerful and fast, hopefully he can get back to those levels. Jordi has shown in top level games he has that in his locker as well.

The problem is for the last 4 years we haven't been playing in a way which exploits this. We have been, up to now hopefully, a very much risk averse possession based team. This isn't down to not having the players to play another way.... But rather down to getting the best results on a particular day.

Joes gone. We don't know yet how farrell will set up his team.

But we certainly do not need knee jerk reactions of getting to turn centers into flankers.... Competely different skill sets required, and instincts, for both which are honed over years....

Its not like gaa where you throw a full back up full forward and hope he shines....

Cork29 · 05-11-2019 07:24PM

sydthebeat wrote: »

We're very close to shark jumping territory here.

We had plenty of ball carrying threat up front. Healy furlong and porter often make good ground around the fringes when playing for Leinster. Henderson is a fantastic explosive ball carrier, one of his main strengths. Ryan simply never goes backwards in the tight. CJ obviously can do it, Conan is great in the loose. It's not JVDFs main strength but the guy has serious wheels. POM was a winger at an earlier age, but concentrates not these days on creating space for others. Leavy is very powerful and fast, hopefully he can get back to those levels. Jordi has shown in top level games he has that in his locker as well.

The problem is for the last 4 years we haven't been playing in a way which exploits this. We have been, up to now hopefully, a very much risk averse possession based team. This isn't down to not having the players to play another way.... But rather down to getting the best results on a particular day.

Joes gone. We don't know yet how farrell will set up his team.

But we certainly do not need knee jerk reactions of getting to turn centers into flankers.... Competely different skill sets required, and instincts, for both which are honed over years....

Its not like gaa where you throw a full back up full forward and hope he shines....

Can you show me any clips at this world cup of these players ball carrying?

As i keep saying we need to get explosive athletes on the pitch was have some that can be worked in

Brian Corcoran, Diarmuid Osullivan lots more examples if you are a hurler you can play anywhere. Same wiith rugby.

Faugheen · 05-11-2019 07:37PM

Cork29 wrote: »

Brian Corcoran, Diarmuid Osullivan lots more examples if you are a hurler you can play anywhere. Same wiith rugby.

You can’t.

Stop this nonsense. You’ve clearly never played a game of rugby before.

sydthebeat · 05-11-2019 07:43PM

Cork29 wrote: »

Can you show me any clips at this world cup of these players ball carrying?

As i keep saying we need to get explosive athletes on the pitch was have some that can be worked in

Brian Corcoran, Diarmuid Osullivan lots more examples if you are a hurler you can play anywhere. Same wiith rugby.

If you think that's comparable with rugby, the your knowledge is extremely limited.

aloooof · 05-11-2019 07:46PM

Cork29 wrote: »

Brian Corcoran, Diarmuid Osullivan lots more examples if you are a hurler you can play anywhere. Same wiith rugby.

It’s really not the same. It’s even written into the laws of the game, when it comes to props. You’re literally prevented from playing anywhere.

Cork29 · 05-11-2019 07:48PM

Faugheen wrote: »

You can’t.

Stop this nonsense. You’ve clearly never played a game of rugby before.

They have 4 years to get to the world cup, can they not be trained to play the position?

Has Ireland ever won a knock out match in the world cup in pretty much a 8 team competition? Need to think outside the box. Get the best/explosive athletes trained up...

Cork29 · 05-11-2019 07:51PM

aloooof wrote: »

It’s really not the same. It’s even written into the laws of the game, when it comes to props. You’re literally prevented from playing anywhere.

Did i mention props/ hooker? 3 positions out of 15

The players i mentioned not being switched to specialized position.

When a forward sin binned usually a back added to scrum to make up the numbers.

Cork29 · 05-11-2019 07:53PM

sydthebeat wrote: »

If you think that's comparable with rugby, the your knowledge is extremely limited.

Show me the clips of ball carrying at this years world cup?

Stephen Ferris explosive athlete and ball carrier in his day, same Sean O Br.

We need to get these kind of players, explosive athletes back in the team.

sydthebeat · 05-11-2019 07:55PM

Cork29 wrote: »

They have 4 years to get to the world cup, can they not be trained to play the position?

Has Ireland ever won a knock out match in the world cup in pretty much a 8 team competition? Need to think outside the box. Get the best/explosive athletes trained up...

Do you not realise that players hone skills over many years... And that rugby positions have VERY specific skills for certain positions??

Do you not also realise that players are directed towards certain positions in their development which suits their skills, physique and temperment??

I'm going to suggest you don't realise this.... As you're gaa analogy shows.

I'll also repeat that our poor RWC performance was as much, if not more, the result of the style of play we employed.. Than the players we played.

If you watched our players regularly you'd see that they are all capable of being strong back carriers.

Faugheen · 05-11-2019 07:56PM

Cork29 wrote: »

They have 4 years to get to the world cup, can they not be trained to play the position?

Has Ireland ever won a knock out match in the world cup in pretty much a 8 team competition? Need to think outside the box. Get the best/explosive athletes trained up...

A position they might never have played in in their entire lives? No they f*cking can’t.

Watch any time someone in the backs has to go into the back row of a scrum to make up numbers when someone is in the sin-bin. The vast majority look like they’ve never done it before.

Seriously. You need to stop this absolutely mad tirade because it’s not how it works.

You’ve never played a game of rugby, so when it comes to these types of discussions you’re out of your depth.

Cork29 · 05-11-2019 08:02PM

sydthebeat wrote: »

Do you not realise that players hone skills over many years... And that rugby positions have VERY specific skills for certain positions??

Do you not also realise that players are directed towards certain positions in their development which suits their skills, physique and temperment??

I'm going to suggest you don't realise this.... As you're gaa analogy shows.

I'll also repeat that our poor RWC performance was as much, if not more, the result of the style of play we employed.. Than the players we played.

If you watched our players regularly you'd see that they are all capable of being strong back carriers.

The style of play was to suit the players in current positions.

In the forwards we do not have explosive athletes. To be exact Cian Healy was explosive not anymore, do many miles on the clock. Furlong, Handerson i would consider explosive but did not turn up.

What we need is some freak athletes, size and speed wise. Farrell and mccloskey fit this. Line out skills can be learned with there size shoild be no issue. International centres can tackle. With there speed can get to breakdown fast, work needed on clearing out and jackling other then that they have the skillset

Cork29 · 05-11-2019 08:07PM

Faugheen wrote: »

A position they might never have played in in their entire lives? No they f*cking can’t.

Watch any time someone in the backs has to go into the back row of a scrum to make up numbers when someone is in the sin-bin. The vast majority look like they’ve never done it before.

Seriously. You need to stop this absolutely mad tirade because it’s not how it works.

You’ve never played a game of rugby, so when it comes to these types of discussions you’re out of your depth.

Nothing mad about it, train the players if it works out great.

As i said we never won a kcockout world cup match in 7 goes in pretty much a 8 team competition. How it is working now has been proved to not work. We need to try make the best of our resources? Do you think Mccloskey will play centre for Ireland. Only if about 5 players missing. Earls play centre before him

Need to start thinking outside the box. Simple as that

Faugheen · 05-11-2019 08:11PM

Cork29 wrote: »

Nothing mad about it, train the players if it works out great.

As i said we never won a kcockout world cup match in 7 goes in pretty much a 8 team competition. How it is working now has been proved to not work. We need to try make the best of our resources? Do you think Mccloskey will play centre for Ireland. Only if about 5 players missing. Earls play centre before him

Need to start thinking outside the box. Simple as that

‘Thinking outside the box’ is a whole lot different to what you’re suggesting. What you’re suggesting is dangerous in a game like rugby.

You don’t respond to any points made. You just keep saying the same things over and over. You’re wrong. Give it up.

Either that or you’re trolling, which I’m growing very suspicious of.

Richie_Rich89 · 05-11-2019 08:13PM

Predictable dismissive and snobbish response to Cork29's suggestion. Brad Thorn and Sam Burgess (for Bath) can switch from league and play in the forwards but it's completely out of the question for players who've been playing union all their lives to learn how to maul and push in the scrum.

Clegg · 05-11-2019 08:14PM

If you want a serious answer re converting centres to backrows the first thing you have to consider is conditioning. The fitness work a backrow forward does is competely different to that of a big, ball carrying centre. Backrows do a lot of tackling at close quarters, they often amass the most tackles for the team. They do a lot of tight ball carrying where they scrap for every inch and they're often contesting the ruck where they torpedo themselves against the opposition and vice versa.

McCloskey and Farrell don't do much of this work which makes them able to make the huge carries. They simply have the energy to do it. Slap a 6 or 8 on their back and the entire focus of the game changes. They won't be able to make those carries. Or they'd have to be very selective as to when they can actually do it.

Cork29 · 05-11-2019 08:16PM

Faugheen wrote: »

‘Thinking outside the box’ is a whole lot different to what you’re suggesting. What you’re suggesting is dangerous in a game like rugby.

You don’t respond to any points made. You just keep saying the same things over and over. You’re wrong. Give it up.

Either that or you’re trolling, which I’m growing very suspicious of.

How is it dangerous.

I am saying we switch players, get our best athletes on the pitch?

Have you seen the size of Mccloskey, have you seen him off load this is the kind of athlete we need. Have you seen his ball carrying. Simple as.

I do not think he gets in the team in current position. For a number 6 he could be unreal with his skill set.

I am not saying give him number 6 jersey now

Richie_Rich89 · 05-11-2019 08:19PM

I'd say O'Driscoll would have been an excellent openside flank forward.

Squidgy Black · 05-11-2019 08:20PM

Cork29 wrote: »

How is it dangerous.

I am saying we switch players, get our best athletes on the pitch?

Have you seen the size of Mccloskey, have you seen him off load this is the kind of athlete we need. Have you seen his ball carrying. Simple as.

I do not think he gets in the team in current position. For a number 6 he could be unreal with his skill set.

I am not saying give him number 6 jersey now

Have you seen McCloskey clear a ruck that isn't just another back or jackal against an opposition backrow? Or take on a carry from the base of a ruck? Or pack down in a scrum? Lift in a lineout?

They're all fundamental skills that a backrow needs and are something that some players will just pick up in a handful of training sessions. For the players safety too, you can't just slap them into those kind of positions open to clear outs without the correct body position or else they'll be folded, the amount of serious injuries that occur to top level backrows like Leavy, Warburton etc who have played there for years. On top of that, Ulster have no requirement for McCloskey to play 6, why would they agree to it?

Cork29 · 05-11-2019 08:20PM

Clegg wrote: »

If you want a serious answer re converting centres to backrows the first thing you have to consider is conditioning. The fitness work a backrow forward does is competely different to that of a big, ball carrying centre. Backrows do a lot of tackling at close quarters, they often amass the most tackles for the team. They do a lot of tight ball carrying where they scrap for every inch and they're often contesting the ruck where they torpedo themselves against the opposition and vice versa.

McCloskey and Farrell don't do much of this work which makes them able to make the huge carries. They simply have the energy to do it. Slap a 6 or 8 on their back and the entire focus of the game changes. They won't be able to make those carries. Or they'd have to be very selective as to when they can actually do it.

They have 4 years to get them ready, with a 6 2 split on bench like South Africa, they need to be able to play 50mins if starting 30 if finishing

Predict Irish XXIII for 2023 RWC

Comments