RSA ad on unaccompanied L drivers

gctest50 · 06-01-2019 8:02pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

its not like the tyre deflated in 5 meters.....

5 meters at say 95 km/h isn't a long time

Eric Cartman · 06-01-2019 8:06pm

gctest50 wrote: »

5 meters at say 95 km/h isn't a long time

but it wasnt 5 meters , also it was on the straight of a wide carraigeway, The raised cats eyes did the final job.

Are you telling me that any reasonably experienced driver out there in a small hatchback weighed down with people wouldnt feel driving on a flat tyre and would also let the car wander over the cats eyes in the median of the road.

also the 95km/h is that in the report ? I never remember her speed being documented so accurately.

emeldc · 06-01-2019 8:06pm

pablo128 wrote: »

I was just thinking if it was a 21 yr old man from Tallaght, Finglas, Ballymun, Ballyfermot, there wouldn't be half the amount of apologists on here.

I think the apologists are out numbered by those who would have her crucified.

gctest50 · 06-01-2019 8:08pm

Tyre fitter Andrew McAuley who worked with Fast Lane Tyre Centre on the Pollerton Road, Carlow recalled changing a damaged tyre on Kearney’s Polo on a date before the accident.

McAuley said he had been asked to put a ‘new’ second-hand tyre on the car.

He told the court he did not check any of the other tyres. The court was told the witness knew the defendant’s family and had given the best quality tyre on the day

gctest50 · 06-01-2019 8:09pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

also the 95km/h is that in the report ? I never remember her speed being documented so accurately.

see the say bit ?

gctest50 wrote: »

5 meters at say 95 km/h isn't a long time

gctest50 · 06-01-2019 8:11pm

dense wrote: »

.......

Were they subsequently lowered to prevent a reoccurrence? I don't think that was ever reported on either.

Probably not - way easier do a PowerPoint on it

dense · 06-01-2019 8:13pm

gctest50 wrote: »

Probably not - way easier do a PowerPoint on it

Do a PowerPoint??

AndrewJRenko · 06-01-2019 8:14pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

then our licencing process needs to be reformed. Those two women shouldnt be on the road if they cant recognise the obvious feeling of a flat tyre , recognise bald tyres etc....

It's happened a few times over the years that I've spotted a car running on an obviously flat tyre, caught the driver's attention and told them, and they say 'Oh no' and drive off at a normal speed, seemingly ignoring it.

dense wrote: »

Feelings about some injury to the tyre caused by cats eyes that were particularly high. A guess then, an educated guess, but still a guess.

Just to clarify, an educated guess from an expert engaged by the defence. And the Garda investigator was off the view that the car had been running on a low pressure tyre for some period before the crash.

horse7 wrote: »

How do you report unqualified drivers who are driving?

Phone your local Garda station, or the Garda TrafficWatch line.

bfa1509 wrote: »

Then why do insurance companies split the liability so much even when the cause is clear as day?

Don't know much about it, but at a guess, this would have something to do with the extensive legal costs involved in taking a case to Court.

dense wrote: »

According to the RSA there are no accidents.

They're "collisions" in safety-speak.

That's not just the RSA. The Garda talk about collisions. All over the world, there is a movement to move away from the 'accident' term, to hold motorists accountable for their driving.

https://www.crashnotaccident.com

gctest50 wrote: »

Since cyclists don't always pay attention :

they might end up in a drain all by themselves

(or in this case "helped" by an outside force ) :

I'm not quite sure I get the significance of raising this issue at this stage in this discussion. But perhaps it might help to avoid the discussion going down a rabbit hole if I clarify that I see cyclists doing stupid stuff all the time. Sometimes, they endanger themselves by doing this, though the death/injury stats for cyclists would suggest that this isn't a huge problem. It is very rare that a cyclist seriously injures or kills someone as a result of doing stupid stuff.

Eric Cartman · 06-01-2019 8:14pm

emeldc wrote: »

I think the apologists are out numbered by those who would have her crucified.

At what point does the inexperience and negligence of somebody resulting in others deaths not deserve vilification ?

That lad who killed a load of his mates when 9 of them crashed in a passat - should we just let him off completely ?

A lad driving on bald tyres killing his passenger hitting a wall , should we forgive that ?

Driving unacompanied on a learner permit and driving defective vehicles are crimes, they are crimes for a reason , because things like this happen. When one of these incidents happens the person behind the wheel of that car is usially the only person to blame.

If it was anyone except a young girl behidn the wheel of that then half the investigation talking tp tyre fitters and road surveys etc.. wouldnt have even be done , the fact that they looked for literally anyone else to appoint blame to says it all.

pablo128 · 06-01-2019 8:14pm

gctest50 wrote: »

Tyre fitter Andrew McAuley who worked with Fast Lane Tyre Centre on the Pollerton Road, Carlow recalled changing a damaged tyre on Kearney’s Polo on a date before the accident.

McAuley said he had been asked to put a ‘new’ second-hand tyre on the car.

He told the court he did not check any of the other tyres. The court was told the witness knew the defendant’s family and had given the best quality tyre on the day

Any idiot making a statement to that effect or in a courtroom should be sacked and never let work on a car again.

I used to work as a mechanic, and I have also worked in large tyre fitting chains. Not a hope in hell would you let a car out the door without looking at all 4 tyres. It's bread and butter stuff. They are there to sell tyres. If the car goes on a ramp, even more stuff gets checked, brakes, shocks, exhaust etc. Basically you would never miss a chance to make a sale.

AndrewJRenko · 06-01-2019 8:15pm

dense wrote: »

Feelings about some injury to the tyre caused by cats eyes that were particularly high. A guess then, an educated guess, but still a guess.

How high were they as a matter of interest? I don't think that was revealed?.

Were they subsequently lowered to prevent a reoccurrence? I don't think that was ever reported on either.

Why don't you check with Cork County Council if you're particularly concerned about this?

lbc2019 · 06-01-2019 8:27pm

Little Less Conversation wrote: »

It was an accident. She didn't set out to kill them.

that would be murder. It wasn't an accident, accidents are blameless, she was fully at fault.

Little Less Conversation · 06-01-2019 8:31pm

lbc2019 wrote: »

that would be murder. It wasn't an accident, accidents are blameless, she was fully at fault.

No she wasn't. There was a gap in the wall. If that was fixed up, she would have just pushed the car to the wall and they wouldn't have went over and drowned.

lbc2019 · 06-01-2019 8:33pm

Needles73 wrote: »

What has the fact she was responsible mean it wasn’t an accident ?

Do you not know the definition of accident?

lbc2019 · 06-01-2019 8:33pm

Little Less Conversation wrote: »

No she wasn't. There was a gap in the wall. If that was fixed up, she would have just pushed the car to the wall and they wouldn't have went over and drowned.

Well a court of law says different and they heard all the facts.

Is she your mate?

Needles73 · 06-01-2019 8:35pm

lbc2019 wrote: »

Do you not know the definition of accident?

You obviously dont.

“an unfortunate incident that happens unexpectedly and unintentionally, typically resulting in damage or injury”

This doesn’t preclude someone being responsible.

lbc2019 · 06-01-2019 8:37pm

Needles73 wrote: »

You obviously dont.

“an unfortunate incident that happens unexpectedly and unintentionally, typically resulting in damage or injury”

This doesn’t preclude someone being responsible.

an event that happens by chance or that is without apparent or deliberate cause.

She was the deliberate cause. No accident. Given her behaviour on the road, it wasnt unexpected either.

Needles73 · 06-01-2019 8:40pm

lbc2019 wrote: »

an event that happens by chance or that is without apparent or deliberate cause.

She was the deliberate cause. No accident

Ah ok. So she rammed them off the road deliberately.

lbc2019 · 06-01-2019 8:42pm

Needles73 wrote: »

Ah ok. So she rammed them off the road deliberately.

That would have been manslaughter/murder. why so aggressive??

Galwayguy35 · 06-01-2019 8:43pm

I don't blame the man for being bitter, his family is gone forever and he will never see either of them again.

06-01-2019 8:45pm

road_high wrote: »

Anyone see the latest RSA ad? Man from north cork who’s wife and daughter died a few years ago in a horrible accident- the ad is quite pointed and sharp I think. I know his family were killed and it’s very tragic but the poor girl didn’t deliberately set out to kill them and could have happened any driver or accompanied driver. I think it’s in poor taste/tone

Agree completely.

He needs to just drop it now, the law has been implemented.

gctest50 · 06-01-2019 8:45pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

..............

That's not just the RSA. The Garda talk about collisions. All over the world, there is a movement to move away from the 'accident' term, to hold motorists accountable for their driving.

httpss://www.crashnotaccident.com

..............

and that domain name could only have been registered by that special form of cyclist

splinter65 · 06-01-2019 8:46pm

pablo128 wrote: »

I was just thinking if it was a 21 yr old man from Tallaght, Finglas, Ballymun, Ballyfermot, there wouldn't be half the amount of apologists on here.

Man or woman makes no difference to me. This person wanted to have a fun day out with her friends. All young people make mistakes and bad decisions it’s part of being young. She didn’t set out to kill anyone. It could easily have been a young guy.
No one deserves to be unmercifully tortured forever over a once off youthful mistake that will haunt them forever anyway.

User142 · 06-01-2019 8:47pm

I've just seen this ad on social media and think it's brilliant. We are really making giant strides in making this practice unacceptable in the eyes of the majority. Just think back 10 years ago, to prosecute an unaccompanied learner the Gardaí would need to summonses the driver and then it was at the discretion of the judge what the fine would be and no penalty points.

We are definitely heading in the right direction, ads like this that hammer it home to parents the consequences they could inflict on another man and his family if they leave their young child drive unaccompanied after only passing a flimsy theory test and an eye test. Add to that Gardaí can now issue penalty points for not displaying L plates or being unaccompanied and now can seize the car using the Clancy Amendment.

I wouldn't be a fan of Shane Ross at all but he is at least tackling one issue head on that will reduce both fatal and non fatal collisions on our roads. People who've only passed a computer test should not be given either official or tacit approval to drive cars on our roads alone.

Eric Cartman · 06-01-2019 8:49pm

splinter65 wrote: »

Man or woman makes no difference to me. This person wanted to have a fun day out with her friends. All young people make mistakes and bad decisions it’s part of being young. She didn’t set out to kill anyone. It could easily have been a young guy.
No one deserves to be unmercifully tortured forever over a once off youthful mistake that will haunt them forever anyway.

and nobody is saying unmercifully tortured. Just in this and some other cases there was no justice served. An admission of guilt and a 4 year driving ban would have sufficed and atleast given the families something, instead she brazenly pleads innocent and strolls out of the court smiling without accepting a single percent of the blame for the deaths she caused. Im sure the accident will 'weigh' on her for the rest of her life , but a tangible punishment for a tangible crime would have been somewhat suitable.

Needles73 · 06-01-2019 8:56pm

lbc2019 wrote: »

That would have been manslaughter/murder. why so aggressive??

I perhaps am getting frustrated. Apologies.

I don’t think you grasp the term accident. Regardless my point of view is a simple one. If someone makes an error on the road that results in injury and death they should be accountable.
That may include prison. No issue.
Where I have an issue is a national ad campaign of misery porn pointing the blame at a specific individual in a specific accident.
I respect other people’s views but I totally disagree with the ad and that would apply if the driver was a lad from Lucan or Ballymun.
The unaccompanied driver rule was ignored and abused for years but it’s easier point the finger at one individual and repeat it ad nauseum over the Christmas.

AndrewJRenko · 06-01-2019 8:58pm

gctest50 wrote: »

and that domain name could only have been registered by that special form of cyclist

From what I can see, it seems to be a coalition of three groups:

Families for Safe Streets
Transportation Alternatives
Vision Zero Network

Just people who are concerned about not getting killed or maimed when walking, cycling or just hanging out.

pablo128 · 06-01-2019 9:01pm

Needles73 wrote: »

I perhaps am getting frustrated. Apologies.

I don’t think you grasp the term accident. Regardless my point of view is a simple one. If someone makes an error on the road that results in injury and death they should be accountable.
That may include prison. No issue.
Where I have an issue is a national ad campaign of misery porn pointing the blame at a specific individual in a specific accident.
I respect other people’s views but I totally disagree with the ad and that would apply if the driver was a lad from Lucan or Ballymun.
The unaccompanied driver rule was ignored and abused for years but it’s easier point the finger at one individual and repeat it ad nauseum over the Christmas.

It's called making an example of someone. It happens all the time. It even happens in courtrooms around the world.

Is it a rough on the girl? Probably. But she knew the rules before she got behind the wheel, even if it wasn't enforced at the time. She took a chance, and unfortunately wasn't experienced enough to know to come to a stop at the junction. Completely her fault.

Needles73 · 06-01-2019 9:04pm

pablo128 wrote: »

It's called making an example of someone. It happens all the time. It even happens in courtrooms around the world.

Is it a rough on the girl? Probably. But she knew the rules before she got behind the wheel, even if it wasn't enforced at the time. She took a chance, and unfortunately wasn't experienced enough to know to come to a stop at the junction. Completely her fault.

Should we have a national ad campaign to make an example of the Gardai who never inforced the rule ? No one disagrees that it was her fault. Anyways im done.

dense · 06-01-2019 9:09pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Why don't you check with Cork County Council if you're particularly concerned about this?

Why the attitude?
I shouldn't have to check to see if their current height falls within whatever limits the engineer based his feelings in court on.

AndrewJRenko · 06-01-2019 9:11pm

dense wrote: »

Why the attitude?
I shouldn't have to check to see if their current height falls within whatever limits the engineer based his feelings in court on.

No attitude, just a practical suggestion if you want to actually address the matter.

I'm not sure what is meant by the 'shouldn't have to check'. How else could the matter be communicated to you?

pablo128 · 06-01-2019 9:20pm

Needles73 wrote: »

Should we have a national ad campaign to make an example of the Gardai who never inforced the rule ? No one disagrees that it was her fault. Anyways im done.

Yes, blame gardai for people committing crimes. Blame anyone, everyone and even cats eyes on the fcuking road before taking something on the chin.

Needles73 · 06-01-2019 9:44pm

pablo128 wrote: »

Yes, blame gardai for people committing crimes. Blame anyone, everyone and even cats eyes on the fcuking road before taking something on the chin.

First of all I’m referring to the ad campaign in this thread and the collision it’s based upon.
Its perfectly obvious who was at fault and they have to live with that on their conscious.
My point is this advert points the blame at one individual because it’s easy and a lazy thing to do. End off. A national campaign could have been achieved in many forms without the need for this particular advert.

lbc2019 · 06-01-2019 9:44pm

Needles73 wrote: »

First of all I’m referring to the ad campaign in this thread and the collision it’s based upon.
Its perfectly obvious who was at fault and they have to live with that on their conscious.
My point is this advert points the blame at one individual because it’s easy and a lazy thing to do. End off.

The court found her at fault

Needles73 · 06-01-2019 9:47pm

lbc2019 wrote: »

The court found her at fault

And what’s your point ? Was part of her sentence to be vilified or be the focus of a national safety campaign ?

lbc2019 · 06-01-2019 9:48pm

Needles73 wrote: »

And what’s your point ? Was part of her sentence to be vilified or be the focus of a national safety campaign ?

Your say it points blame at her as if its incorrect- it’s fact

Needles73 · 06-01-2019 9:52pm

lbc2019 wrote: »

Your say it points blame at her as if its incorrect- it’s fact

I don’t. I say that an ad campaign (any ad) apportioning blame is incorrect.

pablo128 · 06-01-2019 9:57pm

Needles73 wrote: »

I don’t. I say that an ad campaign (any ad) apportioning blame is incorrect.

You are aware of how to make an example out of someone, aren't you? You pretty much point at them, highlight what they did, and remind others of the consequences.

User142 · 06-01-2019 10:00pm

It's pathetic how people will bend over backwards to attribute blame for a crash caused by an unqualified driver to anything but the fact that the driver literally didn't have the experience to drive safely. There are hazards and dangers on our roads, it's the entire reason we need people to prove they can drive before we give them an actual licence. The presence of hazards and dangers on our roads doesn't mitigate the fact she didn't hold a full drivers licence. In fact, it demonstrates exactly why inexperienced learner permit holders shouldn't be driving by themselves.

punisher5112 · 06-01-2019 10:03pm

gctest50 wrote: »

She clipped their car.

Their car went through a gap in the wall that was "there for years"

Whoever didn't fixup the wall with the car-sized gap in it killed them

The water was 2.62 feet ( 0.8 meters ) deep - why didn't any of the bystanders break a window ?

.

You do know the car went in upside down and the doors and windows on both passenger and driver's side were wedged into the ditch.

People did try to get in through the boot but were too late.

gctest50 · 06-01-2019 10:20pm

punisher5112 wrote: »

............

People did try to get in through the boot but were too late.

The daughter was still alive, she died holding the hand of one of those people that were trying

gctest50 · 06-01-2019 10:37pm

User142 wrote: »

It's pathetic how people will bend over backwards to attribute blame for a crash caused by an unqualified driver to anything but the fact that the driver literally didn't have the experience to drive safely. There are hazards and dangers on our roads, it's the entire reason we need people to prove they can drive before we give them an actual licence. The presence of hazards and dangers on our roads doesn't mitigate the fact she didn't hold a full drivers licence. In fact, it demonstrates exactly why inexperienced learner permit holders shouldn't be driving by themselves.

Welcome to boards.ie !

Instead of the RSA wasting money on some dismal misery advert, they should have done a proper feature

- Recreate it with actresses ( can't be that hard to find a Ford Focus in a scrapyard) & no need to go for full on gore stuff

- show where the car went through the gap in the wall that was there for years

- Go through the engineers reports with the speed each were going

almostover · 06-01-2019 10:44pm

fritzelly wrote: »

No issue with the ad - why use makey uppey stories that are not real. Use real life stories to hit home that you - a unlicensed driver do not have the skills to be driving illegally by yourself - look at this story where someone thought they should be exempt from the law and ended up killing someone.
As for the sentence I believe anyone killing someone in a road accident should be charged with manslaughter. When all you get for destroying a family is a driving ban and a stern telling off then what kind of signal does that send to all the people in the future that do the same thing thinking they are excellent drivers and nothing could ever happen
If you intentionally go out and do something knowing full well what you are doing is illegal then you should expect to be hit with the full force of the law

Roll on the next unlicensed driver killing someone or seriously harming them.

So if I have bloutout on the way to work tomorrow and collide with another car killing one of the occupants then I should be charged with manslaughter? A work colleague of mine killed someone on the road last year accidentally not through his own fault. The other driver had lost control of their motorbike and hit my colleague. But let's lock him up too sure didn't he kill someone in a road traffic accident. Just as an FYI despite not being at fault for the accident he was on sick leave for several months due to the mental trauma of the accident. In future please think before you write emotive tripe like this.

emeldc · 06-01-2019 10:55pm

almostover wrote: »

So if I have bloutout on the way to work tomorrow and collide with another car killing one of the occupants then I should be charged with manslaughter? A work colleague of mine killed someone on the road last year accidentally not through his own fault. The other driver had lost control of their motorbike and hit my colleague. But let's lock him up too sure didn't he kill someone in a road traffic accident. Just as an FYI despite not being at fault for the accident he was on sick leave for several months due to the mental trauma of the accident. In future please think before you write emotive tripe like this.

lbc2019 will be along in a minute to tell you that your colleague should have been mindful of other road users

lbc2019 wrote: »

Drivers are required to be alert for other road users

Eric Cartman · 06-01-2019 10:58pm

almostover wrote: »

So if I have bloutout on the way to work tomorrow and collide with another car killing one of the occupants then I should be charged with manslaughter? A work colleague of mine killed someone on the road last year accidentally not through his own fault. The other driver had lost control of their motorbike and hit my colleague. But let's lock him up too sure didn't he kill someone in a road traffic accident. Just as an FYI despite not being at fault for the accident he was on sick leave for several months due to the mental trauma of the accident. In future please think before you write emotive tripe like this.

so then the other driver was at fault, youre really not comparing like with like here.

User142 · 06-01-2019 11:00pm

gctest50 wrote: »

Welcome to boards.ie !

Instead of the RSA wasting money on some dismal misery advert, they should have done a proper feature

- Recreate it with actresses ( can't be that hard to find a Ford Focus in a scrapyard) & no need to go for full on gore stuff

- show where the car went through the gap in the wall that was there for years

- Go through the engineers reports with the speed each were going

Thank you

I disagree. The ad is a great use of money. I think it will feed into the decision making process of parents when they decide to not allow their children who don't hold drivers licences to take their cars. This poor man has had his family taken from him because a parent decided to give his car to his unqualified daughter. It really hammers home just how much destruction an unqualified learner driver can cause behind the wheel.

There are many hazards on our roads. People driving without holding a licence shouldn't be one of them. Even if this crash hadn't happened, aggressively clamping down on the practice of unaccompanied unqualified learner permit holders is desirable.

splinter65 · 06-01-2019 11:10pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

and nobody is saying unmercifully tortured. Just in this and some other cases there was no justice served. An admission of guilt and a 4 year driving ban would have sufficed and atleast given the families something, instead she brazenly pleads innocent and strolls out of the court smiling without accepting a single percent of the blame for the deaths she caused. Im sure the accident will 'weigh' on her for the rest of her life , but a tangible punishment for a tangible crime would have been somewhat suitable.

...and the judge and jury observed the plaintiff and heard and saw all the evidence and, not for the first time either Eric, totally disagreed with you. Did it ever occur to you that rather than most judge and juries being WRONG (according to you) your just not a good judge of character?

SimonTemplar · 06-01-2019 11:13pm

road_high wrote: »

Anyone see the latest RSA ad? Man from north cork who’s wife and daughter died a few years ago in a horrible accident- the ad is quite pointed and sharp I think. I know his family were killed and it’s very tragic but the poor girl didn’t deliberately set out to kill them and could have happened any driver or accompanied driver. I think it’s in poor taste/tone

People who drink and drive, speed, or use their phone while driving don't set out to kill either. But the rules are there for a reason, ultimately to save lives. If you break the rules, rules you know are there for safety, you knowingly increasing the risk of causing injury or death.

It is a horrible case but ultimately she broke the rules.

Eric Cartman · 06-01-2019 11:13pm

splinter65 wrote: »

...and the judge and jury observed the plaintiff and heard and saw all the evidence and, not for the first time either Eric, totally disagreed with you. Did it ever occur to you that rather than most judge and juries being WRONG (according to you) your just not a good judge of character?

Or could it be that our legal system is set up to be too leniant on offenders because of who they are.

How many people do we see being let off crimes in court because of where they came from , or as applies in this case, courts complete reluctance to prosecute young women for anything.

splinter65 · 06-01-2019 11:15pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Or could it be that our legal system is set up to be too leniant on offenders because of who they are.

How many people do we see being let off crimes in court because of where they came from , or as applies in this case, courts complete reluctance to prosecute young women for anything.

Another who’s not a fan of our justice system I see. Which justice system would you prefer?

RSA ad on unaccompanied L drivers

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