The Soulsborne combat debate

sweetie · 30-05-2020 9:49am

I bought Code Vein recently due to its connection to Souls games, played an hour and traded it. That said Dark Souls never clicked with me until after Bloodborne and then I devoured the whole From catalogue. Remnant I was excited for and bought but couldn't pass the first boss and gave up. Any tips Gimli?

Arcadeheroes · 30-05-2020 9:57am

Potential-Monke wrote: »

Re: the time aspect, I don't use the excuse of not having enough time, I use the excuse of I could spend my time better doing something else. They're obviously good games, oeople do like them, for all the reasons mentioned above. But I disagree that 3-5 hours on those games is not enough. As ye said, there's feck all story, so all you're really doing is fight, die, repeat, which you're supposed to do for 20+ hours before you can say you gave it a good go. Which is nonsense imo. As mentioned above, if the gameplay mechanics don't grab you within 3-5 hours, it's not a game for you. And it's unfair, for want of a better word, to label people who do that as people who didn't give it enough time.

There's still elitism, which is still the crux of the problem. Very few people who have enjoyed the games have said 'Ok, you didn't like it, so be it'. Nearly everyone defends it, makes sure you know you're missing out on great combat, an excellent but vague story, etc, blah. It's the defence of it is fanboyish. Some mentioned cinema as another example, like stopping a film after 30 minutes and complaining it was crap. Should I continue to watch after the first 30 minutes of Birds of Prey? I was pretty sure at that stage it was crap, regardless of what was coming afterwards. Save for Margot Robbie doing a full frontal masturbation show, I won't ever watch the rest of it.

I too don't like the Beatles, not my thing, never was. But as you said, I agree they did something for the music industry. I had to google what the Souls series did for gaming, when throwing it into the same league as Mario, Minecraft, etc. I don't think it did as much as those other legendary games. It had 'difficult but fair combat' (bullet hell players might have already got that), a new way to save that respawns enemies, a story that needs to be found if you're interested, and many different locations in the same smallish maps. But that's me reading it as not a fan. If it did more, I'm open to correction. Just don't think it belongs up there with the actual game changers. Probably hit a nerve there...

I did a quick google search from when demon souls and dark souls first came out back in 2009-2011 and found multiple articles with the headline those games are the most influential games of the last decade/century .

The series has also been cited by Yoshida as an influence on several of the PlayStation 4's PlayStation Network features, it was the reason there was a share button implemented on the controller and have video sharing features .
The bloodstain mechanic, leave messages on the floor in game worlds have been used by other games like Nioh and Nier Automata .

Demons souls was revolutionary to how to still be connected with other people online seamlessly without feeling like you were playing an online game.

Then there was the spawn of the genre Soulslike games which took heavy inspiration from DS mechanics and level design .

Witcher 3 , God of war , star wars jedi fallen order , hollow knight , Nioh , The surge .. and the list goes on and on all were heavily influenced by the souls games .

These are more than enough reasons to put Souls alongside Mario, Zelda , Minecraft , Tetris .

petes · 30-05-2020 10:11am

sweetie wrote: »

I bought Code Vein recently due to its connection to Souls games, played an hour and traded it. That said Dark Souls never clicked with me until after Bloodborne and then I devoured the whole From catalogue. Remnant I was excited for and bought but couldn't pass the first boss and gave up. Any tips Gimli?

Exactly how I played them but I fecked BB off first as it was too hard before going back to it and then playing the rest.

Played the demo of Code Vein during the week, thought it was okay, thought there was far too much to remember for each blood types etc.

Was thinking of getting Remnants, might give it a go today.

Exclamation Marc · 30-05-2020 10:17am

I'm sorry but saying its in the same league as Mario, Tetris, Zelda etc is just wrong. Those games are next level as regards their influence, legacy and even how they transcended and transformed gaming. Certain iterations of those series broke new ground for gaming, penetrated the mainstream and became cultural phenomenons.

Dark Souls may be an incredible game to some people and its commendable fine tuning of certain gaming tropes and difficulty demands were top drawer (and obviously inspired a genre) but adoring it doesn't equate it to those games. Plenty of games were influential and left their mark on the gaming industry or refocused the narrative but that's not enough on its own.

It's not my cup of tea as I've outlined (i find it repetitive and the difficulty curve is attainable but needlessly restrictive - only my opinion) but I respect it and what it brings and what if has done and it deserves to be recognised as an incredible game but saying its up there with Tetris, Mario or even games like GTA and the like is just not true. Its legacy is primarily as a hard as nails, unforgiving challenge with fantastic lore underpinning it, but that's nowhere near what a Zelda or Half Life or Minecraft did for gaming - and that's not necessarily a reflection on the game, it's just an insanely high bar.

gimli2112 · 30-05-2020 10:50am

sweetie wrote: »

I bought Code Vein recently due to its connection to Souls games, played an hour and traded it. That said Dark Souls never clicked with me until after Bloodborne and then I devoured the whole From catalogue. Remnant I was excited for and bought but couldn't pass the first boss and gave up. Any tips Gimli?

The bosses are random. In the first area you get a bull like eejit with a sword and a monk that can damage you from afar (these are mid-level not end level bosses). The sword eejit is a real pain. What makes both tough are the adds, it's really about managing the respawning adds, nearly every boss fight is. Some of the later bosses are cruel. I wouldn't say necessarily more difficult than BB bosses but very frustrating, Sometimes a particular load out will make it a lot easier but that's well into the game after you've collected stuff.

As you level up and upgrade your gear and weapons it becomes a lot easier. There's a thing you collect which gives you extra life which is huge but it takes ages through the game to get them all. The problem with the first level is you are so underpowered it makes it very tough. I can beat it at a canter now.

there's a magnum pistol in the first level somewhere, get it this will be your best friend

Some of the bosses have cool mechanics, I got stuck on one on a bridge for hours. It's actually easier solo or in duos as it levels up with the number in your party.

If you beat Souls and BB you'd manage this but it's all about making the breakthrough.

TitianGerm · 30-05-2020 10:53am

petes wrote: »

Exactly how I played them but I fecked BB off first as it was too hard before going back to it and then playing the rest.

Played the demo of Code Vein during the week, thought it was okay, thought there was far too much to remember for each blood types etc.

Was thinking of getting Remnants, might give it a go today.

Remnant is on GamePass if you have it.

Retr0gamer · 30-05-2020 11:40am

Going to chime in to say that demons souls and the from software games are the most influential games of the last 15 years.

Their biggest innovation was asynchronous multiplayer and how it used online connectivity. Before demons souls multiplayer was basically join a server for a competitive match or else join a friend for coop which had to be set up before a game.

Demons souls made that seamless. It's not only a part of the game but also a part of the lore. Not only were the coop and competitive elements active while you played but other systems enabled by online systems were bubbling away in the background from hint systems and bloodstains and world tendencies.

You might not think it was influential because people now take these systems for granted but it was demons souls that started that.

I also feel that demons souls also really changed the industry in a positive way.

Before demons souls triple A gaming was a complete cesspit. Budgets were so big that massive sales numbers were needed to support them. Publishers were afraid to scare away customers so made sure to baby players with over long tutorials and making games that never punished the player. All games were boiled down into a tiny pool of genres that publishers thought would sell.

And then Demons souls came along. It wasn't a game about handholding the player through a rollercoaster that didn't let the player off the tracks. It was a game about exploration, about mechanics and letting the player figure it out. It let the player figure it out for themselves. It didn't treat them like babies. It was a game for people that lived videogames and completely at odds with the barely interactive cutscenes most games had become.

Even the publisher Sony had no expectations for it, sending it out to die. But it started selling insane numbers. Still Sony didn't believe in it and gave publishing duties in the west to third parties. It ended up breaking the million mark in the US and Europe and became atlus's biggest sales success ever. And then the sequels kept selling more.

It made publishers realise there was a market for challenging games. Games based around mechanics and exploration and didn't hold the players hand. Publishers started taking risks on these games. After ninja Gaiden was ruined by trying to make it appeal to the triple A market with ninja gaiden 3 team ninja made nioh. Activision published Sekiro. Triple A games are now more mechanically rich and have been respecting the player far more. I actually think breath of the wild would never exist if not for dark souls.

So from software games for me are arguably the most important games in the last 15 years. I'd rank them alongside stuff like Minecraft or even cave story/braid that sparked the indie game revolution.

So you may think dark souls isn't innovative but you probably played a game last night heavily influenced by it. Game designers by their nature love souls games because they are so mechanically rich and well designed.

30-05-2020 12:37pm

Arcadeheroes wrote: »

I did a quick google search from when demon souls and dark souls first came out back in 2009-2011 and found multiple articles with the headline those games are the most influential games of the last decade/century .

The series has also been cited by Yoshida as an influence on several of the PlayStation 4's PlayStation Network features, it was the reason there was a share button implemented on the controller and have video sharing features .
The bloodstain mechanic, leave messages on the floor in game worlds have been used by other games like Nioh and Nier Automata .

Demons souls was revolutionary to how to still be connected with other people online seamlessly without feeling like you were playing an online game.

Then there was the spawn of the genre Soulslike games which took heavy inspiration from DS mechanics and level design .

Witcher 3 , God of war , star wars jedi fallen order , hollow knight , Nioh , The surge .. and the list goes on and on all were heavily influenced by the souls games .

These are more than enough reasons to put Souls alongside Mario, Zelda , Minecraft , Tetris .

How is the Witcher 3 influenced by dark souls? The only thing Hollow Knight inherited was the ****e story. And that already existed in Metroid.

Arcadeheroes · 30-05-2020 12:42pm

Deleted User wrote: »

How is the Witcher 3 influenced by dark souls? The only thing Hollow Knight inherited was the ****e story. And that already existed in Metroid.

CDProjektRed Damien Monnier said in an interview awhile back that Dark souls was the biggest influence on him and the studio for how the combat was designed in Witcher 3 .

Arcadeheroes · 30-05-2020 12:46pm

Exclamation Marc wrote: »

I'm sorry but saying its in the same league as Mario, Tetris, Zelda etc is just wrong. Those games are next level as regards their influence, legacy and even how they transcended and transformed gaming. Certain iterations of those series broke new ground for gaming, penetrated the mainstream and became cultural phenomenons.

Dark Souls may be an incredible game to some people and its commendable fine tuning of certain gaming tropes and difficulty demands were top drawer (and obviously inspired a genre) but adoring it doesn't equate it to those games. Plenty of games were influential and left their mark on the gaming industry or refocused the narrative but that's not enough on its own.

It's not my cup of tea as I've outlined (i find it repetitive and the difficulty curve is attainable but needlessly restrictive - only my opinion) but I respect it and what it brings and what if has done and it deserves to be recognised as an incredible game but saying its up there with Tetris, Mario or even games like GTA and the like is just not true. Its legacy is primarily as a hard as nails, unforgiving challenge with fantastic lore underpinning it, but that's nowhere near what a Zelda or Half Life or Minecraft did for gaming - and that's not necessarily a reflection on the game, it's just an insanely high bar.

I gave more than enough reasons to back up my points . Since 2009 The souls series has had an incredible impact on the way games have been made , You can still see their influence in a spectrum of games most recently the invading into peoples worlds in Doom Eternal .

Dark Souls more than deserves to be apart of the Elites IMO.

Taltos · 30-05-2020 12:47pm

+1000 Retro.

Add to that though, its amazing after so many years and with the servers all off how well the Demon Souls games stacks up even to modern games. Replayed it recently and I was immediately swept back into the whole world. It really was ground breaking for the time, the whole messaging and invasion mechanics, blew me away at the time, freaked me out when I first got invaded - major panic as I didn’t know what was going on. Just superb

Minime2.5 · 30-05-2020 1:51pm

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Going to chime in to say that demons souls and the from software games are the most influential games of the last 15 years.

Their biggest innovation was asynchronous multiplayer and how it used online connectivity. Before demons souls multiplayer was basically join a server for a competitive match or else join a friend for coop which had to be set up before a game.

Demons souls made that seamless. It's not only a part of the game but also a part of the lore. Not only were the coop and competitive elements active while you played but other systems enabled by online systems were bubbling away in the background from hint systems and bloodstains and world tendencies.

You might not think it was influential because people now take these systems for granted but it was demons souls that started that.

I also feel that demons souls also really changed the industry in a positive way.

Before demons souls triple A gaming was a complete cesspit. Budgets were so big that massive sales numbers were needed to support them. Publishers were afraid to scare away customers so made sure to baby players with over long tutorials and making games that never punished the player. All games were boiled down into a tiny pool of genres that publishers thought would sell.

And then Demons souls came along. It wasn't a game about handholding the player through a rollercoaster that didn't let the player off the tracks. It was a game about exploration, about mechanics and letting the player figure it out. It let the player figure it out for themselves. It didn't treat them like babies. It was a game for people that lived videogames and completely at odds with the barely interactive cutscenes most games had become.

Even the publisher Sony had no expectations for it, sending it out to die. But it started selling insane numbers. Still Sony didn't believe in it and gave publishing duties in the west to third parties. It ended up breaking the million mark in the US and Europe and became atlus's biggest sales success ever. And then the sequels kept selling more.

It made publishers realise there was a market for challenging games. Games based around mechanics and exploration and didn't hold the players hand. Publishers started taking risks on these games. After ninja Gaiden was ruined by trying to make it appeal to the triple A market with ninja gaiden 3 team ninja made nioh. Activision published Sekiro. Triple A games are now more mechanically rich and have been respecting the player far more. I actually think breath of the wild would never exist if not for dark souls.

So from software games for me are arguably the most important games in the last 15 years. I'd rank them alongside stuff like Minecraft or even cave story/braid that sparked the indie game revolution.

So you may think dark souls isn't innovative but you probably played a game last night heavily influenced by it. Game designers by their nature love souls games because they are so mechanically rich and well designed.

I really hope demon souls gets a remaster. Do you think it will ?

McFly85 · 30-05-2020 7:59pm

Havent played any of the souls games,but I have Bloodborne in the backlog and have recently started Sekiro, and I am terrible at it. Death is near constant, but I have to say it looks and plays beautifully. In the rare moments where it goes right and I actually manage to beat one of the bosses or get that parry just right it's a feeling that I just don't get in other games.

Thing is, I'm not sure if I'll ever finish it because there's so many other things that I want to finish, and I will be able to get through. While the highs are high, the constant repetition of defeat will make me reach for something different. But I can imagine myself constantly dipping back into it during breaks from other games.

I can see both sides of it, and I don't think the combat itself is the issue. If you took Sekiros mechanics and put them in a game with the difficulty of GoW I think you'd have an amazing game. The issue is the format of the games themselves. Repetition, repetition, repetition. Some will enjoy it, some will be frustrated by it. There's no right or wrong.

Potential-Monke · 31-05-2020 7:35am

Ye are mentioning mechanics that really only apply to soulslike games. The (let's just call it) hard but fair combat, the messages, the seamless jumping onto other players games, the social messages... All stuff that turns me off. I bought the game. I want to play it. Not with other people. And no thanks to being ganked, and crap deliberately obtuse or incorrect messages. In a recent example of it, Death Stranding, it played a part in my not liking that game. Social whoring brought into gaming, yay!

Regarding the inspiration Cory Barlog apparantly took for the combat in God of War, is every game that uses timing, parry, dodge and block instead of hack and slash going to be a Souls inspired one? I read the article, he wanted combat like Dark Souls (ie: timing), but not Dark Souls. What he made was, imo, far better. Still requires timing (especially on Give me God of War) and planning, but not to the frustrating degree I get from the souls games. If the souls combat inspired the combat in God of War, then he took the formula and made it entertaining, something I don't associate with the combat in Dark Souls.

Still don't think it's as influential as ye make out. Enabling ganking and social whoring are not improvements imo. And I know people are reading this right now, thinking 'he's just a crap player that can't play games with a level of difficulty'. Back in the SNES days, I used to deal with my frustration in gaming (mostly due to badly made games and being broke), I used to hop the controller off the crt tv and get that lovely hollow bonk sound, immediately followed by an inspection of the controller, because the tv would never lose that. Dark Souls frustrates me, so instead of throwing my controller at my LED, I just move on, as there are far more games available today, and very affordable.

Arcadeheroes · 31-05-2020 10:19am

Potential-Monke wrote: »

Ye are mentioning mechanics that really only apply to soulslike games. The (let's just call it) hard but fair combat, the messages, the seamless jumping onto other players games, the social messages... All stuff that turns me off. I bought the game. I want to play it. Not with other people. And no thanks to being ganked, and crap deliberately obtuse or incorrect messages. In a recent example of it, Death Stranding, it played a part in my not liking that game. Social whoring brought into gaming, yay!

Regarding the inspiration Cory Barlog apparantly took for the combat in God of War, is every game that uses timing, parry, dodge and block instead of hack and slash going to be a Souls inspired one? I read the article, he wanted combat like Dark Souls (ie: timing), but not Dark Souls. What he made was, imo, far better. Still requires timing (especially on Give me God of War) and planning, but not to the frustrating degree I get from the souls games. If the souls combat inspired the combat in God of War, then he took the formula and made it entertaining, something I don't associate with the combat in Dark Souls.
Still don't think it's as influential as ye make out. Enabling ganking and social whoring are not improvements imo. And I know people are reading this right now, thinking 'he's just a crap player that can't play games with a level of difficulty'. Back in the SNES days, I used to deal with my frustration in gaming (mostly due to badly made games and being broke), I used to hop the controller off the crt tv and get that lovely hollow bonk sound, immediately followed by an inspection of the controller, because the tv would never lose that. Dark Souls frustrates me, so instead of throwing my controller at my LED, I just move on, as there are far more games available today, and very affordable.

Well I would aspect for their to be improvements for how combat feels in God Of War compared to Dark souls when DS was released 9 years ago . It does not take away the accomplishments Dark souls has done .

Its has been already said that some might not think DS is influential , Its fine if some dont , alot of people found stacked cans in a museum inspirational and wanted to become artist when all I see are stacked cans .

But regardless if you see it , you cant deny the impact it has had on developers , hardware designers , gamers , hell it even inspired the guys who wrote and directed the tv show stranger things . its been 11 years since Demons souls came out and games are still drawing inspiration from it .

Retr0gamer · 31-05-2020 10:37am

Its unfair and wrong to say dark souls influences only extend to souls like games. Pretty much every game dev adores the souls games and references them as inspiration. Even subtle things like social integration all took their cue from souls.

TitianGerm · 31-05-2020 1:54pm

Finally sat down to start DS for about the 10th time again and in the swing now.

The furthest I've ever gotten before being distracted was beating the Gargoyles.

This time I've just beaten them again but I'm actually able to parry now. The only one I'm struggling with timings on is the spear shield guys.

Started as a Pyromancer but running with the Drake Sword and Uchigatana. Seems much easier than before.

Brozy · 31-05-2020 2:37pm

All this debate has me jonesin'. I'll jump in next time it goes on sale on PS store. I only get a couple of hours at a time gaming a week so that might help from what I'm reading. Will probably refer to articles or videos for help (blasphemer). I'm interested to see how I get on. Demon Souls when I tried it seemed impossible but at the time I was busy with life.

Potential-Monke · 31-05-2020 10:55pm

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Its unfair and wrong to say dark souls influences only extend to souls like games. Pretty much every game dev adores the souls games and references them as inspiration. Even subtle things like social integration all took their cue from souls.

Similarily, I think it's unfair and wrong to hold it up beside Mario, Zelda, Minecraft, etc. And social integration ruins everything. Nothing like people to ruin something you like.

Retr0gamer · 01-06-2020 12:55am

Well thankfully that opinion is nowhere near the majority opinion in game development where the influence of dark souls and other esoteric influences such as board games are making videogames a richer experience for everyone.

As for ranking it up there with the Mario's and Zelda's, you can fight all day about what the best game ever is, nobody can say what is it isn't but if somebody told me one of the souls games was their favourite games of all time I couldn't argue with them as it's an excellent choice. I would rank those games with the greatest of all time. And most best of the decade lists from respectable journalistic sources, and less respectable ones would concur

johnnysmack · 01-06-2020 2:03am

https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2054921285/2/#post112313996

Best games of the decade as voted for by boards members. Not a single mention of any DS titles or bloodborne. Not half as popular as ye think.

nix · 01-06-2020 4:50am

Wow, a whole top 3 :rolleyes::pac:

Potential-Monke · 01-06-2020 7:18am

nix wrote: »

Wow, a whole top 3 :rolleyes::pac:

Is there anything outside the top 3? Medals stop at 3... :pac:

Ye're very defensive of the aul souls games.

Retr0gamer · 01-06-2020 11:03am

Should have had a best souls game of the decade award.

01-06-2020 11:18am

johnnysmack wrote: »

https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2054921285/2/#post112313996

Best games of the decade as voted for by boards members. Not a single mention of any DS titles or bloodborne. Not half as popular as ye think.

In fairness a quick google of games of the decade features dark souls and bloodborne in most lists. As much I don't want to admit it, because as we all know DS is overrated, I can't deny it's influence.

nix · 01-06-2020 12:58pm

Potential-Monke wrote: »

Is there anything outside the top 3? Medals stop at 3... :pac:

Ye're very defensive of the aul souls games.

Ah i just like to see credit to go where its due.. :pac:

Thing about the witcher 3 as a game, take away its story and you have a mediocre game. Take away a Soulsbornes story and you have pretty much the same game everybody experiences anyway when they first play it, pure game play

:pac:

01-06-2020 1:12pm

Similarly if you give a Soulsbornes a story, you might have a game that doesn't devolve into a repetitive slog :pac:

Retr0gamer · 01-06-2020 2:22pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Similarly if you give a Soulsbornes a story, you might have a game that doesn't devolve into a repetitive slog :pac:

Similarly if you take away the moaning, have a bit of patience and git gud with a souls game you end up with one of the best games of the decade.

gimli2112 · 01-06-2020 4:46pm

you don't even need to be that good, look at me

01-06-2020 7:40pm

Just had a quick look at my hours on steam

DS1 - 21 hours
DS2 - 37 hours
DS3 - 27 hours

Didn't finish any of them.

How good can a game be if it can't hold my attention till the end

nix · 01-06-2020 7:53pm

You must have enjoyed them if you got all 3 of them, not the games fault you have ADD :pac::D

Retr0gamer · 01-06-2020 8:58pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Just had a quick look at my hours on steam

DS1 - 21 hours
DS2 - 37 hours
DS3 - 27 hours

Didn't finish any of them.

How good can a game be if it can't hold my attention till the end

Steam review: I put 37 hours into this game. Awful.

I've put less time into games I've finished multiple times!

01-06-2020 8:58pm

I get caught up in the frenzy when it comes out. That new-game fever. I forget for a while what I dislike about them. They're not bad games. I genuinely do enjoy the first bit of them until it dawns upon me that it's the same thing over and over. Sekiro elicited more of a emotional response in me due to the characters. Wanting revenge and to rescue your old master pushes you through.

johnny_ultimate · 01-06-2020 9:19pm

As I said earlier in the thread, this is a subjective thing it’ll be impossible to agree on. I know a From game will have me hooked until I beat it - they’re some of the only games I will reliably play through in a week or two without getting distracted or bored. I found FF7 Remake a chore to finish (and possibly wouldn’t have had the world not been in lockdown), but I put roughly the same amount of time into Sekiro and barely felt the hours pass. I’m pretty sure I finished Dark Souls in a week or two despite being someone who’d 95% of the time try to stick to two hours or so of gaming a day (and not every day). When a Soulsborne game, it’s futile to pretend I’ll be doing much else with my downtime until the credits roll.

I’ve been playing The Witcher 3 again a bit in the past few months, and I think it’s a really great game in lots of respects. But I find the moment to moment traversal of the world and combat pretty dull if I’m being frank. I think the game has more than enough to keep me going beyond that, don’t get me wrong. But again I wouldn’t criticise any aspect of DS or its brethren like that - I find the whole gameplay loop immensely engaging and intensive for long periods of times in ways beyond the vast majority of even really, really good games. Again, I can only speak for myself in this regard

Arcadeheroes · 01-06-2020 9:24pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I get caught up in the frenzy when it comes out. That new-game fever. I forget for a while what I dislike about them. They're not bad games.I genuinely do enjoy the first bit of them until it dawns upon me that it's the same thing over and over. Sekiro elicited more of a emotional response in me due to the characters. Wanting revenge and to rescue your old master pushes you through.

I am curious can you list any games that constantly changes in gameplay without having the player doing the same thing over and over ?

01-06-2020 9:37pm

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Steam review: I put 37 hours into this game. Awful.

I've put less time into games I've finished multiple times!

I know you kinda meant that as a joke but never said they were awful. I'm pushing back against this "best game ever" stuff. Probably give them 7/10 if I had to put a number on them and I feel that's generous.

Retr0gamer · 02-06-2020 12:40am

Are they just not for you rather than being bad games though? Because the people that do like them rank them as some of the very best games ever made.

I mean civilisation, championship manager or gran turismo never appealed to me. But I can see why people love them and rank them so highly. They just aren't for me.

What's your take on 'nintendo' hard games from the NES era? Because the way I see Dark Souls is it's the NES Castlevania games or games like them brought into 3D. It's got that same sort of challenging but fair gameplay, intricate level design and world build from it's level design. But it's also got laser focused design, where its the player against the game designer. It's a design philosophy mostly absent now outside of indie games that channel old school games and maybe the better stuff from platinum.

noodler · 02-06-2020 1:46am

I'm just delighted they aren't for everyone tbh.

Greyfox · 02-06-2020 1:55am

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

As I said earlier in the thread, this is a subject thing it’ll be impossible to agree on. I know a From game will have me hooked until I beat it - they’re some of the only games I will reliably play through in a week or two without getting distracted or bored. I found FF7 Remake a chore to finish (and possibly wouldn’t have had the world not been in lockdown), but I put roughly the same amount of time into Sekiro and barely felt the hours pass. I’m pretty sure I finished Dark Souls in a week or two despite being someone who’d 95% of the time try to stick to two hours or so of gaming a day (and not every day). When a Soulsborne game, it’s futile to pretend I’ll be doing much else with my downtime until the credits roll.

I’ve been playing The Witcher 3 again a bit in the past few months, and I think it’s a really great game in lots of respects. But I find the moment to moment traversal of the world and combat pretty dull if I’m being frank. I think the game has more than enough to keep me going beyond that, don’t get me wrong. But again I wouldn’t criticise any aspect of DS or its brethren like that - I find the whole gameplay loop immensely engaging and intensive for long periods of times in ways beyond the vast majority of even really, really good games. Again, I can only speak for myself in this regard

Everyone likes different things, for me I found the Witcher 3 and FF7 remake so good that it was worth playing them again in new game plus/hard mode. With From games it can be hard for people to break away from the fact that they play quite differently to what's expected in modern games as truth be told a lot of people enjoy playing games where there character is an overpowered bad ass who only has to take a few steps back when they die.

TitianGerm · 02-06-2020 8:54pm

https://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/gvcbdn/yeah_boi_when_the_quarantine_started_i_started/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share

Edit: playing through DS1 now and I'm down in a swamp below Blightown. I've killed Tharus Demon, Capra Demon, Gargoyles and Gaping Dragon, also parried an NPC invader to death in the Depths. So far I've being dodging enemies very little and parrying 90% of the time (after Sekiro it seems pretty easy to do after never quite getting it on previous false starts).

I had being using the Drake Sword and Uchigatana but both need to be repaired so now I'm using a Crystal Sword I bought in the Depths, a halbard and the spider shield. I found a Shadow set of armour in Blightown so that's my armour for the moment. I've upgraded the Estus Flask to +1.

I think my weapons are a bit underpowered now though. It takes me 5 riptous (where you stick the sword in them after a successful parry, not sure what it's called or how to spell it) to kill the fat guys at the top of Blightown.

Question is should I have found better armour or upgraded my weapons by now? I haven't been back to Andre since I first met him.

Potential-Monke · 02-06-2020 10:33pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Just had a quick look at my hours on steam

DS1 - 21 hours
DS2 - 37 hours
DS3 - 27 hours

Didn't finish any of them.

How good can a game be if it can't hold my attention till the end

Boom! Proof that it doesn't matter if you spend 3 or 30 hours, if you don't like it, you don't like it!

Greyfox wrote: »

E...a lot of people enjoy playing games where there character is an overpowered bad ass who only has to take a few steps back when they die.

I'm one of those. Life is crap enough that I don't need games to constantly make me feel crap too. I love getting OP'd in single player games. To me that's the point, to become the biggest badass in the game. Even some games where you don't even level up your character do this, ie: Vice City, possibly the reason why I think Vice City is the best GTA.

I do understand people love the (i'm just gonna call it) difficulty of the Soulborne games, it's just not for me. Not because I'm bad at gaming, simply just not for me.

Retr0gamer · 02-06-2020 10:50pm

Which is all fair enough. Just don't call them crap games. Us soulsborne lovers feel personally attacked when you do.

nix · 02-06-2020 11:01pm

Yeah call us crazy, but we like a challenge in our games :pac:

Zero-Cool · 02-06-2020 11:54pm

I'll say one thing, i thought Souls had the best bosses of any game but Astro Bot is giving it a run for it's money. Obviously on the easier side but goddamn fun!

Retr0gamer · 03-06-2020 12:38am

That's one of the things I love about these games. We had years of God awful bosses for companies other than Konami and Capcom and then the utter quagmire of awful bosses that was mgs4. People have out about bosses being an awful idea. But they werent. Awful bosses are just awful. Stuff like uncharted 2 and deus ex didn't help. It was great to finally play a game with amazing boss design.

Even better was it lead to more games getting better designed bosses.

Doctor Nick · 03-06-2020 5:28am

TitianGerm wrote: »

https://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/gvcbdn/yeah_boi_when_the_quarantine_started_i_started/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share

Edit: playing through DS1 now and I'm down in a swamp below Blightown. I've killed Tharus Demon, Capra Demon, Gargoyles and Gaping Dragon, also parried an NPC invader to death in the Depths. So far I've being dodging enemies very little and parrying 90% of the time (after Sekiro it seems pretty easy to do after never quite getting it on previous false starts).

I had being using the Drake Sword and Uchigatana but both need to be repaired so now I'm using a Crystal Sword I bought in the Depths, a halbard and the spider shield. I found a Shadow set of armour in Blightown so that's my armour for the moment. I've upgraded the Estus Flask to +1.

I think my weapons are a bit underpowered now though. It takes me 5 riptous (where you stick the sword in them after a successful parry, not sure what it's called or how to spell it) to kill the fat guys at the top of Blightown.

Question is should I have found better armour or upgraded my weapons by now? I haven't been back to Andre since I first met him.

You could have a +9 weapon at this stage if you found the large ember in the depths. Yes, you should have upgraded your weapon though well done getting this far without doing so.

gimli2112 · 03-06-2020 5:58am

Potential-Monke wrote: »

Boom! Proof that it doesn't matter if you spend 3 or 30 hours, if you don't like it, you don't like it!

This is not something I'm proud to admit but I never finished RE2 remake and I'm struggling to close out the FF7 remake. I left Doom 2016 for a year before I went back to complete it. All of these are great games imo and games, I quite like just something better came along and I didn't / don't have the same enthusiasm for them.

Never had that problem with Bloodborne but again that's a personal thing

TitianGerm · 03-06-2020 7:33am

Doctor Nick wrote: »

You could have a +9 weapon at this stage if you found the large ember in the depths. Yes, you should have upgraded your weapon though well done getting this far without doing so.

I have 5 shards, one large one and two twinkling. I think I have an ember as well but not sure.

It was a long walk back to Andre so I just kept going rather than turn around.

Bloody fire dogs in Blightown took four or five pokes with the Halberd to kill :pac:

What weapons are worth upgrading? I'm a Pyromancer but have 17 points in Strength, Dex and Stamina and 15 or 16 in Vitality.

Doctor Nick · 03-06-2020 8:35am

TitianGerm wrote: »

I have 5 shards, one large one and two twinkling. I think I have an ember as well but not sure.

It was a long walk back to Andre so I just kept going rather than turn around.

Bloody fire dogs in Blightown took four or five pokes with the Halberd to kill :pac:

What weapons are worth upgrading? I'm a Pyromancer but have 17 points in Strength, Dex and Stamina and 15 or 16 in Vitality.

Halberd is decent. Claymore is a good two handed weapon and the Zweihander. Both great swords. My favourite weapon is probably the Great Club. All weapons are viable in the game, up to you which moveset you prefer . The Drake Sword becomes pretty bad once you get to Sens so consider something else.

You can upgrade weapons to +5 without the large ember. You need that to upgrade to +9 then need the very large ember to go to +15.

TitianGerm · 03-06-2020 8:42am

Doctor Nick wrote: »

Halberd is decent. Claymore is a good two handed weapon and the Zweihander. Both great swords. My favourite weapon is probably the Great Club. All weapons are viable in the game, up to you which moveset you prefer . The Drake Sword becomes pretty bad once you get to Sens so consider something else.

You can upgrade weapons to +5 without the large ember. You need that to upgrade to +9 then need the very large ember to go to +15.

Thanks for the help. I might stick with the Drake Sword for the moment if I get back to Andre to have it repaired.

I have a Zweihander and an Iaito (found it on a roof near the bonfire in Blightown) but don't have the stats to use them yet so haven't bothered with them. My original plan was to upgrade the Uchigatana so might stick with that.

The Soulsborne combat debate

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