Justice League Spoilers from post 980 onward

beakerjoe · 01-04-2021 9:38am

Penn wrote: »

Again, not a review. He's not really saying whether it's good or bad, he's comparing it to Snyder's previous works, themes and styles he uses throughout all his movies, how they work here or don't, what he does differently here etc. For example he speaks a lot about Snyder's Libertarian views, how it's prevalent through most of his movies and in Justice League etc. He speaks about how Snyder frames certain shots, what he's trying to convey through it.

It's a discussion of Snyder's filmmaking, not a review of the movie.

If Im watching a review, I like it to be quick. Unless its a comedy review of things, ala OSW Review i dont mind it being 30 mins, but in those cases Im looking to be entertained rather than have a realistic critique.

Id never watch a 2 hour plus serious review on anything. Its just not my idea of 2 hours well spent.

I miss Barry Norman/ Jonny Ross on BBC (well I say miss, I just havent watched any BBC review show in ages). A usual honest take, no spoilers and a tidy time frame.

Penn · 01-04-2021 10:17am

beakerjoe wrote: »

If Im watching a review, I like it to be quick. Unless its a comedy review of things, ala OSW Review i dont mind it being 30 mins, but in those cases Im looking to be entertained rather than have a realistic critique.

Id never watch a 2 hour plus serious review on anything. Its just not my idea of 2 hours well spent.

I miss Barry Norman/ Jonny Ross on BBC (well I say miss, I just havent watched any BBC review show in ages). A usual honest take, no spoilers and a tidy time frame.

Completely agree. I've watched a lot of the Kinda Funny reviews where they review popular movies, often times for longer than the movie itself (they recap the whole plot scene by scene). But I watch them because I find them enjoyable to listen to in the background and they can be funny sometimes. I don't particularly care if they like a movie or not.

But I've also watched a good few of Just Write's videos (who did the 20 minute video I posted) and they go far more in depth into writing and visual styles of the movies, analysing themes, character development. It's far more about concepts rather than is a movie good or not. It's why I enjoyed their Justice League video, I think they made great points about Snyder's Libertarian views and how they shape some of his movies, how he usually adapts other people's characters and works and does them in his style and how that changes them.

Kirby · 01-04-2021 1:15pm

SMC92Ian wrote: »

But why? We have our own brains to make up our own minds. Why do we need to watch some other fella tell us why something is good or bad?

Which is why I don't watch reviews.

But I do watch and listen to analysis and critiques. Because I'm not an all-knowing, all-seeing deity. I miss things. It's nice to get other people's perspectives on things. It's also sometimes helpful for other people to articulate something you think but can't quite put into words.

ManOfMystery · 02-04-2021 11:46am

SMC92Ian wrote: »

But why? We have our own brains to make up our own minds. Why do we need to watch some other fella tell us why something is good or bad?

For films, novels and music I'm following and interested in seeing/reading/listening to, I don't use reviews and make up my own mind after consuming the product.

For the thousands of other films, albums and books released annually for which there are simply not enough hours in a year for me to enjoy all of them, I'll depend on the general consensus from reviews to separate the wheat from the chaff.

And as said above, a critique is a very different thing from a review. One will analyse the whole process of making the film (which can be fascinating, even if it's been poorly received) whilst the other is usually only interested in giving a performance score.

Ridley · 02-04-2021 7:54pm

Penn wrote: »

It's a discussion of Snyder's filmmaking, not a review of the movie.

Certainly helped me see Whedon tried inject some damn colour into DC EU.

Any Snyder cut is already the black and white version nyuk nyuk nyuk

splashthecash · 02-04-2021 9:30pm

I saw an internet piece (John Campea) stating that only 36% of people who started watching ZS JL actually ended up completely finishing it - this is prob on HBO Max.

I watched it and really enjoyed the experience - found it a vastly superior film, for all the points everyone has already said - extensions to story to make it more cohesive, better character development, etc.

The White Wolf · 02-04-2021 9:41pm

If Campea has facts I can't argue but the guy has been getting fed anti Snyder stuff from within WB since the reaction to BvS.

I've no particular interest in seeing Snyder continue his vision but bit a chance I'd ever take an interest in Campea's agenda.

ThePott · 02-04-2021 10:24pm

That stats are coming from Samba TV. Which monitors some Smart TVs in America it's a flawed metric. What's annoyed me is all the people flaunting the data last week when it showed the Snyder Cut when it made it look good but ignoring it now that it looks bad. Same rules apply, monitoring streaming data is a toss-up and if we're totally honest you can skewer stuff to support whatever view you want realistically.

McDermotX · 03-04-2021 10:00am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzGkCMkV31E

Included the better take in the final release IMO

SMC92Ian · 03-04-2021 12:27pm

McDermotX wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzGkCMkV31E

Included the better take in the final release IMO

Worst part of the film for me. It looked like an ejit cosplaying at comic con. I saw better Jokers there to be honest.

pixelburp · 03-04-2021 12:31pm

Ridley wrote: »

Certainly helped me see Whedon tried inject some damn colour into DC EU.

Any Snyder cut is already the black and white version nyuk nyuk nyuk

I don't disagree but don't agree entirely either; Whedons colour grading sucked, and looked like he just shot the saturation up on top of Synder's finished footage. As much as it was hated for its content, Wonder Woman 84 properly popped with colour and vibrancy, with a sense of actual, considered choices therein. It had vitality, Whedons cut looked sickly.

Homelander · 03-04-2021 7:08pm

Won't go into it in any great depth because I'm sure it's been done to death at this stage but good lord, that was tenfold better than what we got in 2017.

Could easily have been trimmed down to 3 hours but I enjoyed all 4, though arguably the last 30 minutes were utterly pointless as I believe they will amount to nothing in the overall scheme of things.

I thought the Whedon version was fairly weak when it was released, but this Synder Cut really shows it up for the half-baked mess it was.

It's everything Justice League was not - everything makes sense and has contextual meaning, the tone is infinitely better, and it fits into Man of Steel and BVS very organically.

I still don't understand, on that note, why people **** on BVS but generally give a pass to utter crap like Aquaman, not to mention the entertaining but over-rated Wonder Woman (first one - don't get me started on 84). BVS isn't perfect, it's not even brilliant, but it's solid.

klose · 04-04-2021 1:11pm

That bloody amazonian music every time wonder woman was on the screen was so grating I found, grand for the first scene but every scene it felt she was it was so annoying.

beakerjoe · 04-04-2021 2:16pm

klose wrote: »

That bloody amazonian music every time wonder woman was on the screen was so grating I found, grand for the first scene but every scene it felt she was it was so annoying.

I like theme but it was done way too much.

SMC92Ian · 04-04-2021 2:40pm

klose wrote: »

That bloody amazonian music every time wonder woman was on the screen was so grating I found, grand for the first scene but every scene it felt she was it was so annoying.

Haaaleeeeeeeleeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaeeeeeeeeeaaaaaa....

techdiver · 06-04-2021 10:20am

I agree about the Amazon theme. It didn't work for me. It takes you out of the scene and it shouldn't do that. They should have just stuck with the Zimmer WW theme. Some of the score is excellent, but he tries too much. He should have reused as much as possible for th individual characters. Created new ones for the new characters (Cyborg, Flash etc, which he did) and a new "Team Theme" (whcih he also did). All the themes for WW, Superman and Batman just leave it alone.

Acosta · 06-04-2021 12:18pm

I'm not a Snyder fan and really wasn't expecting to enjoy it. I wasn't even going to watch it, but glad I did. A pleasant surprise it was. It kept be interested for the 4 hours and didn't drag at all. It felt a little like watching the longer versions of one of the Lord Of The Rings movies. The ending was a bit of a needless mess, but other than that it was really good.

Good redlettermedia review here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNp3Q0AfXRg

kerplun k · 06-04-2021 2:22pm

Anyone read THR today

mikhail · 06-04-2021 4:42pm

kerplun k wrote: »

Anyone read THR today

Yeah. What did you make of it?

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/features/ray-fisher-opens-up-about-justice-league-joss-whedon-and-warners-i-dont-believe-some-of-these-people-are-fit-for-leadership, for anyone who hasn't seen it.

Actually, maybe replies should be limited to the Harvey W thread. I think that was the mod instruction previously.

pixelburp · 06-04-2021 5:00pm

A total segue to the main point, but I hadn't realised the TV show Krypton was part of the controversy with Geooff Johns' behaviour. First time I've read anyone talk of it at all since it was cancelled in '19. Was a weird show that made little impact: it had excellent production values (and was shot in Ireland!), but the scripts were always straining to marry the obvious pressure to tell a prequel story, vs. all the Superman iconography you could tell the studio were demanding.

beakerjoe · 06-04-2021 5:26pm

mikhail wrote: »

Yeah. What did you make of it?

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/features/ray-fisher-opens-up-about-justice-league-joss-whedon-and-warners-i-dont-believe-some-of-these-people-are-fit-for-leadership, for anyone who hasn't seen it.

Actually, maybe replies should be limited to the Harvey W thread. I think that was the mod instruction previously.

Its an interesting piece.

I can see Fishers POV regarding how his character was to be portrayed versus how he ended up in JW version. I believe ZS did a better job and the right call in having Cyborg be the heart of the story. Id be annoyed if they changed it.

That said, I can see why it was changed. BvsS didnt perform well, and JW was brought in to change teh movie to be more appealing to the audience. I disliked his verison but you can see what he was trying to do, .... make a shorter, more gleeful ,movie. It didnt work but I can see what he was going for.

I can see why Fisher objected to the catchphrase, but I think hes reading too much into it personally. Id look at it from the other POV in that he was lucky enough to have a catchphrase.

That said, I can see JW and others being dicks about it.

Ultimately, I feel the situation is akin to not getting a long with everyone. There are always gonna be people who dont see eye to eye, and you'll always have people you perceive to be dicks.

What does Fisher want though from Warner? He didnt get along with some, his vision differed from the vision of others. Do I think those hes annoyed with are racist? Not directly at least.

I think Fisher should let this go.

ThePott · 06-04-2021 5:35pm

Read the piece.

I don't think there was anything new here and I also don't think there is much to this (at least from what has been revealed) aside from Whedon was a d1ck. Not saying some of his gripes aren't justified but I think some of the people he's dragged don't really seem like the did much wrong. A lot of what his accusations are also from witnesses he won't reveal. Considering there's nothing illegal here I'm not positive what he wants done.

I can respect him standing up for doing what he thinks is right but not sure exactly what he wants and feel like it's now blown up to the point where no solution would be satisfactory and I don't think the accusations match the outrage. Just my two cents, maybe I'm just missing something as a white Irish guy and not an African-American. That being said I hope he gets some degree of justice, whatever that is for him and has a career left, I did enjoy his performance in ZSJL.

alchemist33 · 06-04-2021 6:11pm

ThePott wrote: »

Read the piece.

I don't think there was anything new here and I also don't think there is much to this (at least from what has been revealed) aside from Whedon was a d1ck. Not saying some of his gripes aren't justified but I think some of the people he's dragged don't really seem like the did much wrong. A lot of what his accusations are also from witnesses he won't reveal. Considering there's nothing illegal here I'm not positive what he wants done.

I can respect him standing up for doing what he thinks is right but not sure exactly what he wants and feel like it's now blown up to the point where no solution would be satisfactory and I don't think the accusations match the outrage. Just my two cents, maybe I'm just missing something as a white Irish guy and not an African-American. That being said I hope he gets some degree of justice, whatever that is for him and has a career left, I did enjoy his performance in ZSJL.

Having only a peripheral knowledge of this story from before, I was expecting way worse from that article. A lot of it seems to be actors wanting more say in dialogue and story, which I thought wouldn'y have been the norm apart from a few superstars. And the catchphrase thing - Fisher was right, it wouldn' t have made any real difference by itself - feels like a mountain out of a molehill.
But maybe its more about interpersonal issues and someone being a d*ck, rather than big issues that can have the allegation of an -ism thrown at them.

Penn · 06-04-2021 6:29pm

alchemist33 wrote: »

Having only a peripheral knowledge of this story from before, I was expecting way worse from that article. A lot of it seems to be actors wanting more say in dialogue and story, which I thought wouldn'y have been the norm apart from a few superstars. And the catchphrase thing - Fisher was right, it wouldn' t have made any real difference by itself - feels like a mountain out of a molehill.
But maybe its more about interpersonal issues and someone being a d*ck, rather than big issues that can have the allegation of an -ism thrown at them.

It sounds mostly like death by a thousand cuts. There were very few major incidents, but it was just constant arguments, disrespect and being lied to, and Whedon/Johns/WB just stonewalling any attempts at discussion. The biggest issues imo were Whedon trying to threaten Gal Gadot's career and the things about WB lying about who was investigating Fisher's claims. It just seems like everything that happened from when Snyder stepped away was just an absolute sh*tshow in all regards.

pixelburp · 06-04-2021 6:46pm

Penn wrote: »

It sounds mostly like death by a thousand cuts. There were very few major incidents, but it was just constant arguments, disrespect and being lied to, and Whedon/Johns/WB just stonewalling any attempts at discussion. The biggest issues imo were Whedon trying to threaten Gal Gadot's career and the things about WB lying about who was investigating Fisher's claims. It just seems like everything that happened from when Snyder stepped away was just an absolute sh*tshow in all regards.

I was going to say something similar. No smoking gun but a workplace that suffered a constant stream of being undermined or disrespected. I couldn't agree it reads Ike the greatest outrage in Hollywood but I can see why an actor unwilling to bend to executive privilege likely chaffed at the vulgarity and nonsense. This is a case where I'd love some alternative views cos to me the catchphrase thing reads like something totally overblown; but yeah, what do I know.

The White Wolf · 06-04-2021 7:52pm

Fisher could have picked a better outlet than THR, as they have previously accommodated the Warner execs with PR pieces. Maybe just me but there's a bit of a sarcastic tone to this article that puts Fisher in a negative light.

mikhail · 06-04-2021 8:24pm

Tone, schmone. His specific allegations are right there in print and amount to little more than a strop over not being in charge. It reads like utter prima donna stuff.

Penn · 06-04-2021 8:24pm

pixelburp wrote: »

I was going to say something similar. No smoking gun but a workplace that suffered a constant stream of being undermined or disrespected. I couldn't agree it reads Ike the greatest outrage in Hollywood but I can see why an actor unwilling to bend to executive privilege likely chaffed at the vulgarity and nonsense. This is a case where I'd love some alternative views cos to me the catchphrase thing reads like something totally overblown; but yeah, what do I know.

I think in fairness to Fisher, it seems like his role went from "the heart of the movie" to "Say the line, Bart!"

Given what he signed on to play in Snyder's version versus what his role was being reduced to, I think the catchphrase thing is just more symbolic of the wider issue than an issue in itself.

pixelburp · 06-04-2021 8:37pm

Penn wrote: »

I think in fairness to Fisher, it seems like his role went from "the heart of the movie" to "Say the line, Bart!"

Given what he signed on to play in Snyder's version versus what his role was being reduced to, I think the catchphrase thing is just more symbolic of the wider issue than an issue in itself.

For sure. The decision to jettison Cyborg's entire arc was insane, no question and is doubly egregious given what replaced it with Whedons garbage "comedy". But then that kind of aggressive retooling is so depressingly common in Hollywood, when I was reading the article it didn't shock to the degree I suspect it did Fisher - his experiences from a racial pov notwithstanding. It almost reads a little naive. Shítty, but also seemingly unaware how often executives will completely tear up a production on a whim. Actors finding parts just disappearing because a producer got the willies. Had a quick check and he has had 6 productions in total according to Wikipedia; I hadn't realised how much of a newcomer he was. 3 film and 3 TV credits, with all the cinema work confined to Cyborg. Sounds like he hasn't had much time to absorb the Hollywood blockbuster experience. And in taking on WB, he may not get any further chances either :-/

Penn · 06-04-2021 8:54pm

pixelburp wrote: »

For sure. The decision to jettison Cyborg's entire arc was insane, no question and is doubly egregious given what replaced it with Whedons garbage "comedy". But then that kind of aggressive retooling is so depressingly common in Hollywood, when I was reading the article it didn't shock to the degree I suspect it did Fisher - his experiences from a racial pov notwithstanding. It almost reads a little naive. Shítty, but also seemingly unaware how often executives will completely tear up a production on a whim. Actors finding parts just disappearing because a producer got the willies. Had a quick check and he has had 6 productions in total according to Wikipedia; I hadn't realised how much of a newcomer he was. 3 film and 3 TV credits, with all the cinema work confined to Cyborg. Sounds like he hasn't had much time to absorb the Hollywood blockbuster experience. And in taking on WB, he may not get any further chances either :-/

I hope he does, as I did enjoy his performance in both versions of the film. Even in the Josstice League, his performance was the most surprising part.

But definitely I think the main issue was that when they made the decision to try and reshape Snyder's film and have it max 2hours, Cyborg's story had to be the main thing cut because of how much time is devoted just to his character rather than the story as a whole.

Justice League **Spoilers from post 980 onward**

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Justice League Spoilers from post 980 onward