Justice League **Spoilers from post 980 onward**

Snake Plisken

The thing with the Marvel Universe they had basically a fan at the helm in Kevin Feige, he kind of knew what the fans would like and how he planned out all the movies and it was a good business model where there was enough post credit scenes to have the fans coming back for more.
Same could be said about Jon Favreau and Dave Filoni and how as fans they knew what to do with Star Wars VS the ham fisted way Kathleen Kennedy has managed the Star Wars universe.
The fans who had called for the Snyder Cut were proven right in the end and have to say this was the best of the Snyder DC movies.
Just thinking, I think it's a shame as a producer/Director with a lot power at Warner Christopher Nolan did not step in and either finish it or stop the shambles Josh Whedon was making of it ( I mean he told Snyder not to watch it and he still hasn't).
Standalone movies aren't going to work, they will find out the hard way.
So it looks like both Snyder and Nolan have made their last movies for Warner Bros.

Tony EH

ManOfMystery wrote: »

It's a shame, as the Marvel model works - whether WB like it or not. These characters in the comics were never all standalone, you always had the teams like X-men and Avengers, then standalone titles where they all got together. It's those dynamics as an ensemble that elevated the comics and characters to something else.

Snyder's ensemble work may not have been for everyone, but regardless of that there is a hunger out there to see the characters together and bouncing off each other. Joker was great and I'm sure Matt Reeves' take on Batman will be brilliant (going by his previous work), but I also feel like WB are missing a huge beat by only going down the solo film route.

TBH, I think the solo (but slightly connected) film route might be a better idea over all. It would allow film makers to shrink their area of concentration and things will end up being more coherent. I think the best Marvel movies (not that I'm a fan) have been the the ones that focused on individual characters. 'Iron Man' is probably the best example. I'd also rate 'Ant-Man', 'Dr. Strange' and the first 'Spider-Man' above any of the Avengers movies. And frankly I'd never have had the Guardians of the Galaxy ever meet the earthbound characters.

The team up thing was always kinda twee, even in the few comics that I read. It's always one or two "great" superheroes and a few also rans who were never that interesting or popular in the first place. This goes for both Marvel and DC and I've always found that the likes of Batman or Superman work much, much, better when they are alone and the story concentrates on them.

Plus the team up malarkey nearly always has to do with some sort of existential global crisis brought to it from space. And that's were the superhero genre gets really, really, tiresome.

SMC92Ian

After looking back at the Wheadon version it was a bad movie but it did have a few scenes I thought were a lot better done. Superman in the original JL IS Superman, not this gloomy ****e and I though Batman was better too, that rooftop scene was great. For me the best JL would be both of them mashed into 2-3 hours. I might do that myself for fun seems as lockdown is extending.

Penn

10% of the Snyder Cut is in slow-motion
https://www.ign.com/articles/snyder-cut-justice-league-10-slow-motion-slo-mo

The Flash bits, completely understandable. Some of the big action moments, fine. But so much of it was completely needless, especially Cyborg playing football.

CramCycle

Penn wrote: »

10% of the Snyder Cut is in slow-motion
https://www.ign.com/articles/snyder-cut-justice-league-10-slow-motion-slo-mo

The Flash bits, completely understandable. Some of the big action moments, fine. But so much of it was completely needless, especially Cyborg playing football.

I don't agree here, if you cut the slo mo on the football, just cut the football scene altogether then. Even watching NFL, they replay the big moments slowly so you see the nitty gritty, it is nicer to watch, even Rugby does it as well. Play it at normal speed and it doesn't fit the soundtrack or momentum building

pixelburp

The way American football works, if you don't slow it down, the moment or scene will last about 3, 4 seconds. The sport takes place in fits and starts across chunks of seconds, very very start-stop. Cinematically it's a tough one to film without heavy accentuation (the YouTube essayist Patrick Willems did a good breakdown on this lately, and why baseball is actually the best sport for movies)

ThePott

Watched it over the weekend and had to think about it for a bit.
Overall I thought it was decent but not great. It's an improvement of the 2017 but that's not saying much. There's a lot of positives about it especially characters being more developed (Cyborg especially). Found the 4 hour runtime to be unjustified though, it could have easily done with a more ruthless edit and while there is plenty of new good stuff, the structure and plot being so similiar to JL 2017 means it's hard to get all that excited for it.

The length killed it for me as is the film isn't a masterpiece like some are claiming it to be but is easily the best version of the film and possibly Snyder's best DC film (although I still prefer Man Of Steel but I could see this changing in time.)

Those are my general thoughts, I could go on and on. I did a video review if anyone cares to check it out where I elaborated a bit more on positives and negatives. Skip 90 seconds to get straight to the review

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUupr4PiqWw

Penn

CramCycle wrote: »

I don't agree here, if you cut the slo mo on the football, just cut the football scene altogether then. Even watching NFL, they replay the big moments slowly so you see the nitty gritty, it is nicer to watch, even Rugby does it as well. Play it at normal speed and it doesn't fit the soundtrack or momentum building

But that's because the sport is what you're watching. What we're supposed to be seeing in this scene is just who Cyborg is, and the football doesn't add that much to it. The key focus of the scene is, okay maybe it shows his determination and resolve, but it's also about his father not being at the game. Super slow-mo of Cyborg vaulting over someone really doesn't add enough to Cyborg's flashback to warrant just how slow-mo it is (it's really slow) and how long it goes on for. It's not like he displays some skill or ability that comes into play later.

The soundtrack would also be designed to suit the scene regardless of what speed it's at.

CramCycle

Penn wrote: »

But that's because the sport is what you're watching. What we're supposed to be seeing in this scene is just who Cyborg is, and the football doesn't add that much to it. The key focus of the scene is, okay maybe it shows his determination and resolve, but it's also about his father not being at the game. Super slow-mo of Cyborg vaulting over someone really doesn't add enough to Cyborg's flashback to warrant just how slow-mo it is (it's really slow) and how long it goes on for. It's not like he displays some skill or ability that comes into play later.

The soundtrack would also be designed to suit the scene regardless of what speed it's at.

But if it was normal football at regular speed, it would be over in a few seconds and give no indication of the grit and determination as he went for it, it adds drama because we see by the celebrations at this last minute TD that he gave it his all (or that's what you are meant to see). Then his father wasn't there to see it, it shows the disconnect, why losing his mother was tougher than losing his father. If it wasn't in slomo it would have been a short sh1tty scene, and you might have been better without it. To be honest, you could have left it out or shortened it and just had the announcer tell you it was there last chance but it adds, really pointless, tension. Scene would have worked just as well if he missed the TD, and his Mam lifts his spirits which his Dad wasn't there to do

Penn

CramCycle wrote: »

But if it was normal football at regular speed, it would be over in a few seconds and give no indication of the grit and determination as he went for it, it adds drama because we see by the celebrations at this last minute TD that he gave it his all (or that's what you are meant to see). Then his father wasn't there to see it, it shows the disconnect, why losing his mother was tougher than losing his father. If it wasn't in slomo it would have been a short sh1tty scene, and you might have been better without it. To be honest, you could have left it out or shortened it and just had the announcer tell you it was there last chance but it adds, really pointless, tension. Scene would have worked just as well if he missed the TD, and his Mam lifts his spirits which his Dad wasn't there to do

Oh I'm not saying they shouldn't have had any slow-mo in that scene, but it was overdone, and too slow. It could have been mostly normal speed, a little bit of slow mo, and then just focus on the disappointment of his father not being there.

SMC92Ian

Slow motion was the least of it's worry. There was far more glaring issues that that. The dialogue and script being wrote by a 14 year old at times is more off putting to me than a few slow scenes.

The White Wolf

Penn wrote: »

10% of the Snyder Cut is in slow-motion
https://www.ign.com/articles/snyder-cut-justice-league-10-slow-motion-slo-mo

The Flash bits, completely understandable. Some of the big action moments, fine. But so much of it was completely needless, especially Cyborg playing football.

10% not bad given what some were saying on here about how it effected the run time.

TheRef

I'm only half way through, but I'm still very disappointed in the laziness of both te the direction and editing. Oh, and while I am a huge Marvel fan and superhero movies in general, I've never been a DC fan.

Three examples:

1. Aquaman always rips off his jumper before going into the water, but always has a jumper on when he is out of it.
2. The Amazonians who are trying to protect the Mother box from Steppenwolf are lemmings. Loads of them die for no apparent reason. They don't understand defense - no armour or protection of any sorts - just attack and die. Obviously don't care too much about life.
3. The first scene where the heros are rescuing the hostages - when Diana is fighting Steppenwolf - the rest are nowhere to be seen. Why aren't they in there with her?

It's these small things and attention to detail that are just lacking and so easy to clean up.

Tony EH

Penn wrote: »

10% of the Snyder Cut is in slow-motion
https://www.ign.com/articles/snyder-cut-justice-league-10-slow-motion-slo-mo

The Flash bits, completely understandable. Some of the big action moments, fine. But so much of it was completely needless, especially Cyborg playing football.

The football scene was ok and it looked nice too. And slowing The Flash down is really the only way to show how he operates.

It's all the pop video nonsense at the beginning that was unnecessary. Lois walking in the rain. Aquaman taking his shirt off and taking 5 minutes to jump into the sea, etc.

Stuff like that just looks corny and people get sick of that real fast, because of its cheap attempts at trying to be dramatic.

Thing is, when it's all accounted for, there isn't that much slo mo to give out about.

Mark Hamill

Tony EH wrote: »

Thing is, when it's all accounted for, there isn't that much slo mo to give out about.

10% of a 4hr movie is 24 minutes. You could cut 20 minutes of the slow-mo, then cut the whole knightmare scene, the Lois/Martha Manhunter scene and trim down the introductions of Aquaman, Wonder Woman and Steppenwolfs attack on the Amazonians (and the arrow scene which followed) and you would easily safe an hour and the movie would be much better for it.

steve_r

Mark Hamill wrote: »

10% of a 4hr movie is 24 minutes. You could cut 20 minutes of the slow-mo, then cut the whole knightmare scene, the Lois/Martha Manhunter scene and trim down the introductions of Aquaman, Wonder Woman and Steppenwolfs attack on the Amazonians (and the arrow scene which followed) and you would easily safe an hour and the movie would be much better for it.

Yeah I’d agree. I found the Knightmare segment interesting but it shouldn’t be stuck in at the end of the film.

Penn

steve_r wrote: »

Yeah I’d agree. I found the Knightmare segment interesting but it shouldn’t be stuck in at the end of the film.

Especially since it was filmed after, and is about setting up future films that are unlikely to ever happen anyway.

I still believe that as much as it might be that Snyder just wanted to take his last opportunity to have a Batman V Joker scene, it's also a f*ck you to WB by hyping up his fans about what his future films could have been.

senordingdong

Mark Hamill wrote: »

10% of a 4hr movie is 24 minutes. You could cut 20 minutes of the slow-mo, then cut the whole knightmare scene, the Lois/Martha Manhunter scene and trim down the introductions of Aquaman, Wonder Woman and Steppenwolfs attack on the Amazonians (and the arrow scene which followed) and you would easily safe an hour and the movie would be much better for it.

But that would basically leave you with the wheadon cut.

CastorTroy

So everyone rewatching it in the black & white version?

steve_r

senordingdong wrote: »

But that would basically leave you with the wheadon cut.

To be fair you’d still have the additional screen time for cyborg/flash & co to develop out there stories. This helps the final battle which is different to how Wheedon showed it. You also lose the bad lip cgi and the crap jokes.

You’d end up with a three hour + coherent film versus the 2 hour theatrical release which had significant issues

johnny_ultimate

The black & white versions of existing movies are a tedious marketing ploy at this stage. It tries to add some contrived, unearned prestige to films - its is handy to get a secondary boost in cinema tickets and streams, and little else. It’s the same with much better films than this like Parasite and Fury Road.

Even in those cases when the director approves of these b&w versions, they were still bloomin’ shot in colour so they’re not suddenly going to be brilliant examples of black & white cinematography when you zap the things of colour entirely. If you want to make a black & white film, make a black & white film in the first place - plenty of modern filmmakers have done so to stunning effect.

senordingdong

steve_r wrote: »

To be fair you’d still have the additional screen time for cyborg/flash & co to develop out there stories. This helps the final battle which is different to how Wheedon showed it. You also lose the bad lip cgi and the crap jokes.

You’d end up with a three hour + coherent film versus the 2 hour theatrical release which had significant issues

Ah I know I know, I'm just playing.
I liked the movie but admit that there was still plenty of fat to trim.

Tony EH

Mark Hamill wrote: »

10% of a 4hr movie is 24 minutes. You could cut 20 minutes of the slow-mo, then cut the whole knightmare scene, the Lois/Martha Manhunter scene and trim down the introductions of Aquaman, Wonder Woman and Steppenwolfs attack on the Amazonians (and the arrow scene which followed) and you would easily safe an hour and the movie would be much better for it.

Yeh, I did the maths. But I think you missed the bit about the necessity of the Flash's slo mo scenes and a few other areas where it doesn't look egregious.

Over all, the bulk of slo mo is ok and it's the stuff at the beginning that looks kinda OTT and feels out of place.

I would agree that the Snyder cut is too long by a good margin. And personally that epilogue scene is dreck. I know it's tied into the scene on BvS, but who cares. I also don't like premonitions in any form. There's other stuff that feels extraneous too, like that guy who suddenly appears after the Martha Kent/Lois Lane chat, the space Martian fella whatever his name is. That was just a very poor idea to end that scene that way.

Lithium93_

Other sites I frequent, absolutely loved the appearances of General Swanwick/Martian Manhunter. Though I can see how it might be jarring to those who would think WHO'S THAT GUY.

CramCycle

El Duda wrote: »

DC fans are bitterly envious of Marvel to their very core, so of course they have to try and diminish its towering stance above DC at every opportunity.

Really? Most comic fans are comic fans, very few are of the DC vs Marvel mentality.

CastorTroy wrote: »

So everyone rewatching it in the black & white version?

Not a hope

Lithium93_ wrote: »

Other sites I frequent, absolutely loved the appearances of General Swanwick/Martian Manhunter. Though I can see how it might be jarring to those who would think WHO'S THAT GUY.

As someone who knew who it was, it was spectacularly pointless. There were better ways to get the Martian Manhunter in without involving him directly, this was pure silliness.

Tony EH

CramCycle wrote: »

As someone who knew who it was, it was spectacularly pointless. There were better ways to get the Martian Manhunter in without involving him directly, this was pure silliness.

Even if I'd had known who it was it would still have wrecked the scene and all for a silly reveal that was, as you say, spectacularly pointless.

The scene works with Supe's mum paying a visit to Lois to see how she getting on. But how it plays now is just WTF?

senordingdong

Tony EH wrote: »

The scene works with Supe's mum paying a visit to Lois to see how she getting on. But how it plays now is just WTF?

Could it be that MM also knows that Lois is critical on the future war against Darkseid.

Mark Hamill

Tony EH wrote: »

Yeh, I did the maths. But I think you missed the bit about the necessity of the Flash's slo mo scenes and a few other areas where it doesn't look egregious.

I did say to only removed 20 of the 24 minutes, I'm not against all of it, or the idea of slo-mo in general.
And Flash doesn't actually need that much slo-mo at all. The underground fight with Steppenwolf had him superspeed dodging a parademon and pushing him into the wall all in real time and it looked great, and then one of his best power scenes was when he saved the hostages from the rubble shortly after, again all in realtime (although if it was lit so you could actually see it, it would have been much better).

Mark Hamill

CramCycle wrote: »

Really? Most comic fans are comic fans, very few are of the DC vs Marvel mentality.

I don't read comics, but I am a big fan of the MCU. However, I am also a big fan of DC's tv/movie media (mainly Timmverse and the 00's animated movies, but also Batman Begins/Dark Knight and Joker).
I want the DC movies to succeed so much and I don't want them to just be the same as the MCU because the MCU already exists.

CramCycle wrote: »

As someone who knew who it was, it was spectacularly pointless. There were better ways to get the Martian Manhunter in without involving him directly, this was pure silliness.

I found it really dumb that he seemed to be heavily interfering in the background, but never just introduced himself during the movie to help.

beakerjoe

Ok so i wasnt a huge fan of the JW cut.

This one was better but still had issues. I overall enjoyed it.

I liked the story much better. Fleshing out Flash and Cyborg was much welcomed. Couldnt of cared about them in the first film.

Its a miserable film.....as in its mostly misery and dark..... Like the DK trilogy was dark and grim, but didn't feel so miserable.

Liked the look of Steppenwolf a lot more and Sups looks 10 times better. Superman though remained a very wooden version of the character compared to the MOS.

I like the addition of Darksied and its a pity the story wont get added to.

The ending was much better. A vast improvement on the JW cut.

The end credits scene..... just seems like over indulgence. Like what was the point other than a cool scene.

Overall, I enjoyed it. Its a bit of a slog in places, and its more depressing than edgy/dark.... but I still enjoyed it.

***1/2