Justice League **Spoilers from post 980 onward**

kerplun k

mikhail wrote: »

Yeah. What did you make of it?

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/features/ray-fisher-opens-up-about-justice-league-joss-whedon-and-warners-i-dont-believe-some-of-these-people-are-fit-for-leadership, for anyone who hasn't seen it.

Actually, maybe replies should be limited to the Harvey W thread. I think that was the mod instruction previously.

It’s a good piece, nothing major sticks out but the way it’s laid out the picture becomes a little bit clearer, again Whedon comes across as a A.hole, but Id imagine he was under a tremendous amount of pressure to get this done and obviously had a clash of personalities with some of the crew that reads like they were still loyal to the OG director. When Fisher raised his concerns, the top brass ultimately decided to back Whedon. It’s a situation that that can be common in the workplace, especially when the pressure builds and the stakes get this high. I’ll read it again, but I’m still not sure what Fishers end game is here? What does he ultimately want from all this? I mean he can’t take down the whole studio because he found himself in a sh*tty work situation. The main culprits Johns and Whedon have essentially been fired from WB, you can’t keep going up the food chain and looking for more and more accountability, the book has to stop somewhere and that was Johns and Whedon.

I did find it funny that Gadot objected to Whedons more aggressive portrayal of Diana, considering we had that ending in the Snyder cut

Coincide

I watched the Snyder edition but have never seen the original. Somewhat tempered to watch it just to compare

CramCycle

Coincide wrote: »

I watched the Snyder edition but have never seen the original. Somewhat tempered to watch it just to compare

Don't, ZS version is the better one, whether you enjoyed it or not, I haven't found anyone who actually thinks the original is better. If you liked the ZS one, you won't like the JW one, if you didn't like the ZS one, you will hate the JW one.

pixelburp

I still think the opening scene of the Whedon Cut works better, and oddly would have guessed that was from the Synder footage, not the reshoot. Even by Synder's standards of melodrama, his opening was just way overblown IMO. I laughed at the "cry heard around the world", whereas Whedon's variant gave a little more texture to the world.

CramCycle

pixelburp wrote: »

I still think the opening scene of the Whedon Cut works better, and oddly would have guessed that was from the Synder footage, not the reshoot. Even by Synder's standards of melodrama, his opening was just way overblown IMO. I laughed at the "cry heard around the world", whereas Whedon's variant gave a little more texture to the world.

The cry around the world grated a lot, he screamed in such a fashion as to create a perfect wave of sound/whatever that traveled parallel to the surface of the earth, around the entire earth. I know what he was aiming for as it looked like something you would see in old comics but in a movie it just didn't work. I'd have preferred knowing glances to the sky and a look of sadness or simply, the death cry in the locale and then maybe a picture of a motherbox activating. Easier nad makes more sense.

SMC92Ian

CramCycle wrote: »

Don't, ZS version is the better one, whether you enjoyed it or not, I haven't found anyone who actually thinks the original is better. If you liked the ZS one, you won't like the JW one, if you didn't like the ZS one, you will hate the JW one.

The original was bad but did have some good parts to it, the Superman in the original JL was a better Superman, he was actually Superman.

Penn

CramCycle wrote: »

The cry around the world grated a lot, he screamed in such a fashion as to create a perfect wave of sound/whatever that traveled parallel to the surface of the earth, around the entire earth. I know what he was aiming for as it looked like something you would see in old comics but in a movie it just didn't work. I'd have preferred knowing glances to the sky and a look of sadness or simply, the death cry in the locale and then maybe a picture of a motherbox activating. Easier nad makes more sense.

If the death cry only affected the Mother Boxes, that'd make sense as it's later said they could sense that Superman died and could therefore activate. You could even argue that Cyborg sensing it makes sense given he was largely created from a Mother Box. But Atlantean and Amazonian guards, the ripples in the air/wave.... that was just all nonsense.

pixelburp

SMC92Ian wrote: »

The original was bad but did have some good parts to it, the Superman in the original JL was a better Superman, he was actually Superman.

The family in the area of the finale was also a good idea IN THEORY, but the execution pretty horrendous. I can see what the thinking was: Synder's films have had almost no tether to everyday reality or "ground level" characters to establish stakes. Portraying the DC rosters as gods is all well and good but the absence of any sense of humanity has been a flaw IMO.

SMC92Ian

pixelburp wrote: »

The family in the area of the finale was also a good idea IN THEORY, but the execution pretty horrendous. I can see what the thinking was: Synder's films have had almost no tether to everyday reality or "ground level" characters to establish stakes. Portraying the DC rosters as gods is all well and good but the absence of any sense of humanity has been a flaw IMO.

It's what I liked about JW **** version, it had Superman and Flash helping "normies" like they should be. In ZSJL it's all magic super gods but in the other one it had regular folk being helped by the "gods" I prefer that. I also liked the little bit of Flash saving the family and Superman flying by with a whole building haha.

For me a mash up of the two films is the best JL. But yeah on their own JW is messy ****e and ZS is pretentious ****.

CramCycle

SMC92Ian wrote: »

The original was bad but did have some good parts to it, the Superman in the original JL was a better Superman, he was actually Superman.

Other than his costume colour, he was one of the few characters there was little difference in IMO

beakerjoe

Penn wrote: »

I think in fairness to Fisher, it seems like his role went from "the heart of the movie" to "Say the line, Bart!"

Given what he signed on to play in Snyder's version versus what his role was being reduced to, I think the catchphrase thing is just more symbolic of the wider issue than an issue in itself.

But isnt that Hollywood.... one minute your riding high, next minute the rug is pulled. Its not nice and hes justified to be annoyed, but thats life.

Penn

SMC92Ian wrote: »

It's what I liked about JW **** version, it had Superman and Flash helping "normies" like they should be. In ZSJL it's all magic super gods but in the other one it had regular folk being helped by the "gods" I prefer that. I also liked the little bit of Flash saving the family and Superman flying by with a whole building haha.

For me a mash up of the two films is the best JL. But yeah on their own JW is messy ****e and ZS is pretentious ****.

The reasoning behind it of "Put a face to the people being saved by the heroes" was sound. The execution of it of "Why the f*ck is this family living beside an abandoned nuclear power plant and why didn't they leave when the aliens first started attacking?" was just diabolical.

There were definitely bits of JW's version that were better than ZS's, but I think overall a pure JW version from scratch and ZS's version would always have been better than JW's version of ZS's version. The mash-up of the two in the theatrical version was destined to fail.

beakerjoe

Was it a toxic, horrible enviroment? Most likely.

Was it riddled with racism and racists? I dont believe so.

Just because Fisher doesn't like the direction the movie took, doesn't make their decsions racist. Fair play to Fisher for soeaking out about the horrible working enviroment, but he went overboard IMO assuming things were based on his race.

SMC92Ian

Penn wrote: »

The reasoning behind it of "Put a face to the people being saved by the heroes" was sound. The execution of it of "Why the f*ck is this family living beside an abandoned nuclear power plant and why didn't they leave when the aliens first started attacking?" was just diabolical.

There were definitely bits of JW's version that were better than ZS's, but I think overall a pure JW version from scratch and ZS's version would always have been better than JW's version of ZS's version. The mash-up of the two in the theatrical version was destined to fail.

Honestly do you think if we just got the original Snyder version back in 2017 it'd be any good? I only think this ZSJL is being highly fawned over is because the other version was so crap. MOS and BVS weren't exactly high praise films.

Penn

SMC92Ian wrote: »

Honestly do you think if we just got the original Snyder version back in 2017 it'd be any good? I only think this ZSJL is being highly fawned over is because the other version was so crap. MOS and BVS weren't exactly high praise films.

I think if ZS's version were to have made it to the cinema, it would have been max. 3 hours long, so that editing down of it imo would have helped. But at the very least, tonally and thematically it would have been consistent. I think there were enough good parts in Snyder's version that a 3 hour version would have been decent (not fantastic, but decent).

Likewise, a Whedon version from scratch (without having to try make something from Snyder's version to suit the studio's demands) again would have been better than what we ended up with. I enjoyed both his Avenger's movies and while a full Whedon version would have tonally been very jarring following BvS, it also could have been decent.

What we got was the product of two very different directors/writers with two very different visions for the movie. There were elements of it that were good and would have suited being in either version of the movie, but overall it was just a mess. The Snyder Cut is definitely better imo, and would have been even better if edited down to 3 hours (as the full Snyder Cut is fairly self-indulgent and he could just throw everything in he wanted without restriction).

pixelburp

SMC92Ian wrote: »

Honestly do you think if we just got the original Snyder version back in 2017 it'd be any good? I only think this ZSJL is being highly fawned over is because the other version was so crap. MOS and BVS weren't exactly high praise films.

There's a huge amount of retroactive praise going on I think: but it's from a legitimate place of enthusiasm all the same. Coupled with a starved market for blockbuster fodder. The "Directors Cut" wasn't born here and there's a long, storied history of new and more authentic version of films coming from a previously shut-out director. Heaven's Gate; Blade Runner; Exorcist III; Apocalypse Now; Kingdom of Heaven; even within the genre, you got Superman II and the famous "Donner Cut".

The question I'd be curious over would be: where and how could SYnder have taken that 4-hour behemoth and made a theatre ready cut? Were it not for the tragedy in his life, that was where the conflict with the WB brain-trust was going to come from. Obviously, the Knightmare nonsense would be the first to go. Beyond that? Judicuous trimming of scenes here and there; you'd like to think Cyborg would have still got a better shake than the Whedon cut.

CramCycle

beakerjoe wrote: »

Was it a toxic, horrible enviroment? Most likely.

Was it riddled with racism and racists? I dont believe so.

Just because Fisher doesn't like the direction the movie took, doesn't make their decsions racist. Fair play to Fisher for soeaking out about the horrible working enviroment, but he went overboard IMO assuming things were based on his race.

It can be very hard for people to picture what being on the other side of targeted abuse, even this paper cut style BS unless they themselves have suffered from it. I can't say whether it was added to because of race because I have never had to deal with that, no matter how much I read about it or learn about it I will still never understand it. I will often think when I hear things about race, religion, orientation or gender that it doesn't seem bad but then again, I am relating to it as a one off thing as if it is not continual and lifelong, I simply cannot relate. I can relate to certain things but racial abuse is simply not one of them, so I will take the side of it could well be, the same way I have experience of Xenophobia or Orientation based discrimination, albeit a far lesser amount of abuse for me, people didn't think it was abuse or that I was overreacting but then they themselves where not the victims and could not relate. It is quite possible that the perpetrators didn't even realise what they were doing, doesn't make it any less real.

SomeSayKos

SMC92Ian wrote: »

Honestly do you think if we just got the original Snyder version back in 2017 it'd be any good?

It's a better film for sure but it does not justify its 4 hour running time at all and I really feel if it had a theatrical release it would have been savaged for that.
In the current situation with people being stuck at home and bored, I think people are less inclined to be annoyed with its ill-disciplined running time.

On a side note, I was really struck by how bad the cgi/effects were in this film. I couldn't buy into most locations being 'real' places, particularly the wonder woman place, which just looked so artificial that it really made that whole portion of the film a real slog for me.

Overall though my thoughts are that it's not as good as Man of Steel but it's better than BvS.

Tony EH

pixelburp wrote: »

The question I'd be curious over would be: where and how could SYnder have taken that 4-hour behemoth and made a theatre ready cut? Were it not for the tragedy in his life, that was where the conflict with the WB brain-trust was going to come from. Obviously, the Knightmare nonsense would be the first to go. Beyond that?

There's a comfortable ending at the 3 1/2 hour mark with the superhero lineup before that ridiculous, self indulgent, bollocks at the end. That is where the movie should have finished. There's 30 minutes sliced out right there. Plus that Knightmare stuff is, as you say, nonsense.

Some little nips and tucks here and there throughout and I'm sure you could get it down to 3 or 3 1/4 hour movie.

But even at 3 1/2 hours, it would have made for a far more comfortable watch (even in a cinema) than the 4 hour endurance test that it is at present.

The White Wolf

I think if they ended it with the League standing united and Clark looking happy with the worst behind him, only to cut to the Knightmare timeline where he's succumbed to the anti-life equation, that would have been a decent and coherent ending.

Superman being evil didn't quite resonant the way Snyder did it.

alchemist33

SomeSayKos wrote: »

It's a better film for sure but it does not justify its 4 hour running time at all and I really feel if it had a theatrical release it would have been savaged for that.
In the current situation with people being stuck at home and bored, I think people are less inclined to be annoyed with its ill-disciplined running time.

On a side note, I was really struck by how bad the cgi/effects were in this film. I couldn't buy into most locations being 'real' places, particularly the wonder woman place, which just looked so artificial that it really made that whole portion of the film a real slog for me.

Overall though my thoughts are that it's not as good as Man of Steel but it's better than BvS.

I also expected the terrible CGI in the Amazon chase sequence to be improved. Maybe its hard to do realistic horses

senordingdong

alchemist33 wrote: »

I also expected the terrible CGI in the Amazon chase sequence to be improved. Maybe its hard to do realistic horses

It bothers how much effort (and money) was pumped into improving cgi in some areas, where others were ignored. Steppenwolfs new appearance added nothing for example.

beakerjoe

senordingdong wrote: »

It bothers how much effort (and money) was pumped into improving cgi in some areas, where others were ignored. Steppenwolfs new appearance added nothing for example.

His appearance in ZS version was much better. Like most of JWs attempts, I can see what he was trying to do... it just failed.

Much prefer Zacks vision on how SW looked

Penn

beakerjoe wrote: »

His appearance in ZS version was much better. Like most of JWs attempts, I can see what he was trying to do... it just failed.

Much prefer Zacks vision on how SW looked

I said after watching ZSJL that I preferred how Steppenwolf looked in JW's version, but having rewatched part of it as it was on TV, I think a mashup of the two would have been better. Keep the more alien aspects of Steppenwolf's look like his face, horns etc and the bigger size/shape of the character like ZSJL, but have different shades/parts to his armour and tone down the weird moving spikes and silverness of it.

SMC92Ian

Penn wrote: »

I said after watching ZSJL that I preferred how Steppenwolf looked in JW's version, but having rewatched part of it as it was on TV, I think a mashup of the two would have been better. Keep the more alien aspects of Steppenwolf's look like his face, horns etc and the bigger size/shape of the character like ZSJL, but have different shades/parts to his armour and tone down the weird moving spikes and silverness of it.

He reminded me of the big guy Loki sent after Thor in the first Thor film.

ThePott

Yeah I think there's problems with both designs to be honest. That being said I don't think they did enough to fix the design in ZSJL. I would assume as well with the CG taking so much time that Zack probably had a fair bit of input into the design of the OG one too, no?

I still think both are bland designs either way.

Homelander

Thought he was much better in the ZS version personally. There really is nothing I thought was done better in the JW version to be honest - the whole movie was a narratively and tonally inconsistent mess, regardless of the intentions.

My only gripe with the new Justice League is that the final 30 minutes are completely unnecessary and ultimately pointless, would've been far better for it to just end at 3h30m.

Penn

Homelander wrote: »

Thought he was much better in the ZS version personally. There really is nothing I thought was done better in the JW version to be honest - the whole movie was a narratively and tonally inconsistent mess, regardless of the intentions.

My only gripe with the new Justice League is that the final 30 minutes are completely unnecessary and ultimately pointless, would've been far better for it to just end at 3h30m.

I'd say really the only thing from JW's version that I would have liked to have seen in ZS's version was how Batman is more of a mentor to Flash, especially the "Save one" scene. I think Batman was so underpowered compared to the rest that they didn't really capitalise on the strengths he could bring to the team, mentoring the newer heroes and helping them learn from his past mistakes. And maybe Cyborg being more inconspicuous when meeting Wonder Woman in the street, emerging from a dark alley with his hoodie on, rather than the ZS version where he just flies in in all his Cyborgness.

senordingdong

beakerjoe wrote: »

His appearance in ZS version was much better. Like most of JWs attempts, I can see what he was trying to do... it just failed.

Much prefer Zacks vision on how SW looked

It may have looked better but it didn't add anything to the film