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Leinster schools league/cup 2015/2016 senior&junior
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Blackrock beaten Terenure, SA touring side which beat RoscreaAussie_Bloke wrote: »Any Senior schools results over the last few weeks ?. favorites ect ?
Garbally top of the pile in Connacht - 4from 4 in league
Glenstal going well in Limerick league....0 -
Bit late to this but there is merit in their argument. Players seem to switch pretty seemlessly between super rugby franchises in NZ with little provincial loyalty (maa nonu had played for the canes, landers and blues since 2012) it allows them to get their best players playing 1st xv rugby and therefore develop quicker. Look at olding in Ulster for instance, it would be massively beneficial for Connacht and not too detrimental to ulster if he moved to Connacht and played week in week out. I imagine if we spread out our talent like this it might hurt the stronger provinces short term but long term the provinces and national side would play a higher standard of rugby and develop more depth as the balances spread of talent would open younger players to more experience and lessen the need for clubs like Connacht to sign foreign players. I completely understand the arguments against this aswell and am not sure how I would feel as a Leinster fan if for instance madigan went to Connacht, but this is just the logical argument as to why weakened provincial liyalty may be a good thing
What you've outlined is quite possibly the biggest potential improvement Irish rugby could make.0 -
So who are the favorites this year in the senior cup? I hear Rock and Belvo are strong but some other schools are in with a shout. Any big results?0
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Bit late to this but there is merit in their argument. Players seem to switch pretty seemlessly between super rugby franchises in NZ with little provincial loyalty (maa nonu had played for the canes, landers and blues since 2012) it allows them to get their best players playing 1st xv rugby and therefore develop quicker. Look at olding in Ulster for instance, it would be massively beneficial for Connacht and not too detrimental to ulster if he moved to Connacht and played week in week out. I imagine if we spread out our talent like this it might hurt the stronger provinces short term but long term the provinces and national side would play a higher standard of rugby and develop more depth as the balances spread of talent would open younger players to more experience and lessen the need for clubs like Connacht to sign foreign players. I completely understand the arguments against this aswell and am not sure how I would feel as a Leinster fan if for instance madigan went to Connacht, but this is just the logical argument as to why weakened provincial liyalty may be a good thing
might be the wrong thread for this chat but The provincial loyalty is a double edged sword. It allows us to keep SOb, Heaslip and lure back Sexton but then it hinders movement of fringe players.
I reckon we get high quality players for cheaper than there market value due to this loyalty. I reckon Murphy, Reid or lower down ranks like Ryan/van Der Flyer are on a fraction what the french club has to pay for a similar quality cover.
I would be in favour of player movement in principle but the benefit of the loyalty enables us to fend off competition from abroad0 -
Anyone have any thoughts on how this new 20 month rule will affect certain schools this year and in years to come?0
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Newstalk are about to discuss whether you need to play for a fee paying school to make in Leinster. Might be of interest to some.0
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Redemptionz, you've nailed it on the head; Blackrock should be the worst hit, but they're not. They have already started recruiting at a younger age and are already bypassing this new rule. The 20 month rule will actually stand to benefit Blackrock and the couple of other elite schools in Leinster. The smaller schools can't afford to offer 3 or 4 year scholarships and will no doubt suffer as a result.
I know what you're saying about poaching players from other schools. This needs to stop, but this new 20 month rule is not the way forward. If you listened to Trevor Brennan on Newstalk there he talked a lot of sense. One of his main points was that the way to address the problem is to improve the coaching and facilities the smaller schools. The answer isn't to turn around to a boy of 16 and say- "no sorry but you can't play rugby at senior cup level because you didn't pay a fortune to be here 20 months before hand".
Again I stress- this new rule is completely elitist and needs to be addressed as soon as possible.0 -
Redemptionz, you've nailed it on the head; Blackrock should be the worst hit, but they're not. They have already started recruiting at a younger age and are already bypassing this new rule. The 20 month rule will actually stand to benefit Blackrock and the couple of other elite schools in Leinster. The smaller schools can't afford to offer 3 or 4 year scholarships and will no doubt suffer as a result.
I know what you're saying about poaching players from other schools. This needs to stop, but this new 20 month rule is not the way forward. If you listened to Trevor Hogan the coaching and facilities the smaller schools. The answer isn't to turn around to a boy of 16 and say- "no sorry but you can't play rugby at senior cup level because you didn't pay a fortune to be here 20 months before hand
Again I stress- this new rule is completely elitist and needs to be addressed as soon as possible.0 -
Ricardo Rodriquez wrote: »Redemptionz, you've nailed it on the head; Blackrock should be the worst hit, but they're not. They have already started recruiting at a younger age and are already bypassing this new rule. The 20 month rule will actually stand to benefit Blackrock and the couple of other elite schools in Leinster. The smaller schools can't afford to offer 3 or 4 year scholarships and will no doubt suffer as a result.
I know what you're saying about poaching players from other schools. This needs to stop, but this new 20 month rule is not the way forward. If you listened to Trevor Brennan on Newstalk there he talked a lot of sense. One of his main points was that the way to address the problem is to improve the coaching and facilities the smaller schools. The answer isn't to turn around to a boy of 16 and say- "no sorry but you can't play rugby at senior cup level because you didn't pay a fortune to be here 20 months before hand".
Again I stress- this new rule is completely elitist and needs to be addressed as soon as possible.
I personally think people need to accept scholarships as a fact of life. No one is going to be happy bar complete banning of scholarships and that cannot happen so.0 -
Its a great rule. Should have been brought in years ago in all provinces....Ricardo Rodriquez wrote: »Anyone have any thoughts on how this new 20 month rule will affect certain schools this year and in years to come?
Of course Blackrock and others have started "recruiting" at a younger age. They'll(All schools) now will look at players who are under 15s who stand out in u16 regional Shane Horgan Cup and by 20 months up those kids may have 2 more years playing schools cup.Ricardo Rodriquez wrote: »Redemptionz, you've nailed it on the head; Blackrock should be the worst hit, but they're not. They have already started recruiting at a younger age and are already bypassing this new rule. The 20 month rule will actually stand to benefit Blackrock and the couple of other elite schools in Leinster. The smaller schools can't afford to offer 3 or 4 year scholarships and will no doubt suffer as a result.
I know what you're saying about poaching players from other schools. This needs to stop, but this new 20 month rule is not the way forward. If you listened to Trevor Brennan on Newstalk there he talked a lot of sense. One of his main points was that the way to address the problem is to improve the coaching and facilities the smaller schools. The answer isn't to turn around to a boy of 16 and say- "no sorry but you can't play rugby at senior cup level because you didn't pay a fortune to be here 20 months before hand".
Again I stress- this new rule is completely elitist and needs to be addressed as soon as possible.
It isn't just about improving the smaller schools its about improving the coaching and facilities in the clubs
Something has to be done. Schools with the biggest chequebook shouldn't be at an advantage over others and something needs to be done around thatbradders90 wrote: »I personally think people need to accept scholarships as a fact of life. No one is going to be happy bar complete banning of scholarships and that cannot happen so.0 -
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I have to say that it is a great rule and should help the schools throughout the country who would have lost talented young players to the bigger schools. I am glad that it has come in.
One issue that it may have an effect on is schools with boarding facilities. This is already a dying way of life in Ireland. Not every parent can afford to send kids to boarding school for the full five years but may have intended to do so for the last two (Leaving Cert) years, this could be for academic as well as sport reasons. Places like Roscrea that would have some players from the west who are good at rugby as well as GAA might go there to concentrate on rugby and also getting a good leaving cert, the likes of Gavin Duffy and Ciaran Gaffney spring to mind, only went in LC years. Some schools will be affected more than others and boarding schools especially0 -
It should help the clubs more than other schools IMO. It may have an effect on boarding schools but is that really an issue?RobbieRuns wrote: »I have to say that it is a great rule and should help the schools throughout the country who would have lost talented young players to the bigger schools. I am glad that it has come in.
One issue that it may have an effect on is schools with boarding facilities. This is already a dying way of life in Ireland. Not every parent can afford to send kids to boarding school for the full five years but may have intended to do so for the last two (Leaving Cert) years, this could be for academic as well as sport reasons. Places like Roscrea that would have some players from the west who are good at rugby as well as GAA might go there to concentrate on rugby and also getting a good leaving cert, the likes of Gavin Duffy and Ciaran Gaffney spring to mind, only went in LC years. Some schools will be affected more than others and boarding schools especially
Glenstal and Castletroy play in Limerick Senior City Cup final Friday.... Any other games coming up???0 -
It is an issue to boarding schools and to their survival, they are a dying concept tho !0
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The Lost Sheep wrote: »It may have an effect on boarding schools but is that really an issue?
Yeah it is. You're cutting the legs from underneath a lot of kids who go to the school for 5th and 6th year for education purposes and are then told you can't play rugby here because a committee in Dublin made a decision. That decision wasn't made for the sake of the clubs either.
You don't survive boarding school without sport, whether it is hurling or rugby.0 -
And kids will still be able to play sport. No legs are being cut from underneath here. Shouldn't be bothered post this considering your gra for Cist Roscrea and all that but this committee decision is to help all areas of the sport and to stop schools using financial means to win schools age grade competitionsYeah it is. You're cutting the legs from underneath a lot of kids who go to the school for 5th and 6th year for education purposes and are then told you can't play rugby here because a committee in Dublin made a decision. That decision wasn't made for the sake of the clubs either.
You don't survive boarding school without sport, whether it is hurling or rugby.0 -
The Lost Sheep wrote: »And kids will still be able to play sport. No legs are being cut from underneath here. Shouldn't be bothered post this considering your gra for Cist Roscrea and all that but this committee decision is to help all areas of the sport and to stop schools using financial means to win schools age grade competitions
Shouldn't consider any of your posts considering your "gra" for clubs in that case. Actually you know what anyone who has an opinion on a team they support stop posting, your "Gra" for your team is getting in the way. Such a lazy dismissal.
Tell me what sport a kid coming from the Bish to Roscrea who's played rugby his whole life is supposed to take up when he joins in 5th year? I know four lads who did that in my year and year above, and I'll tell you they weren't joining Roscrea to win cups. They also played Connacht club cup rugby, Tiernan O'Halloran even played for Connemara when he was in Leinster schools team. Connemara, Ballina, Wegians and Buccs were all represented and the school had no problem letting the players leave to play.
So tell me why do these lads deserve to have their legs cut from underneath them now?0 -
The rule was done with good intentions but it is flawed. for every scholarship/poach of a player there is an unquantifiable number just changing for a myriad of reasons.(an school with 100 in a year can have 20/30 in and out per year throughout the school) I don't think stopping all these children from playing was the plan.
schools can apply for a dispensation. i don't know how that would work either but at least every player movement can be taken on its merits.
it won't stop the problem anyway. A particularly big south dublin boys school known for rugby has taken two in from kings hospital, another from castleknock and another from CUS into third year. The problem remains but it just goes back earlier.0 -
I have refereed in Roscrea and know of plenty who I have refereed one week in Roscrea and the next in Oughterard/Thurles/Corinthians etc. This rule is good as it means schools cant be incentivising kids to join for rugby purposesShouldn't consider any of your posts considering your "gra" for clubs in that case. Actually you know what anyone who has an opinion on a team they support stop posting, your "Gra" for your team is getting in the way. Such a lazy dismissal.
Tell me what sport a kid coming from the Bish to Roscrea who's played rugby his whole life is supposed to take up when he joins in 5th year? I know four lads who did that in my year and year above, and I'll tell you they weren't joining Roscrea to win cups. They also played Connacht club cup rugby, Tiernan O'Halloran even played for Connemara when he was in Leinster schools team. Connemara, Ballina, Wegians and Buccs were all represented and the school had no problem letting the players leave to play.
So tell me why do these lads deserve to have their legs cut from underneath them now?
You say they didn't join to win cups but many do year after year. Those players who join don't have their legs cut from underneath them. They are not being stopped from playing rugby. Rugby will still be available in club system. The schools system is not the be all and end all and by having a system in place that stops schools financial backing being a major role in helping win a cup then the playing field is more equal
The rule doesn't stop all who move from playing but stops those who are clearly moving to play schools cup. It will move earlier and earlier but blind refusal to say it happens and that this rule is bad is not good for the game.The rule was done with good intentions but it is flawed. for every scholarship/poach of a player there is an unquantifiable number just changing for a myriad of reasons.(an school with 100 in a year can have 20/30 in and out per year throughout the school) I don't think stopping all these children from playing was the plan.
schools can apply for a dispensation. i don't know how that would work either but at least every player movement can be taken on its merits.
it won't stop the problem anyway. A particularly big south dublin boys school known for rugby has taken two in from kings hospital, another from castleknock and another from CUS into third year. The problem remains but it just goes back earlier.0 -
The Lost Sheep wrote: »You say they didn't join to win cups but many do year after year. Those players who join don't have their legs cut from underneath them. They are not being stopped from playing rugby. Rugby will still be available in club system. The schools system is not the be all and end all and by having a system in place that stops schools financial backing being a major role in helping win a cup then the playing field is more equal
It's a seven day boarding school. Rugby will be available through club system of course it is and I never said otherwise, if anything I said Roscrea has encouraged both for its Connacht players which is a considerable bulk of the school. Explain to me how it works that a player will play matches at the weekend but no training with the club side? I've done it in Gaelic Football for my local side and the resentment from some team mates of playing and no training became too much and I quit. What I'm reading from above you're saying, you can train with your school mates during the week and hold a tackle bag, but sorry no games unless it is with the club at the weekend. Think he is going to be interested in rugby for much longer?
I've done it in Gaelic Football for my local side and the resentment from some team mates of playing and no training became too much and I quit. I know plenty of lads who did the same.
Financial backing will never not be a major role in winning cups it doesn't matter what school it is. I don't like it, you don't like it but it will always be a major part.
The biggest issue that is knockable in underage rugby is the exclusivity of only playing for schools and not allowed for clubs.0 -
Players already are doing it. They Go home on a Friday, train and then play on weekend in club. You are not reading what im saying. The schools system as the be all and end all has to end. By stopping schools using financial strength and for peoples wealth to play a role in their chances of "making it" has to be decreased. This change does this.It's a seven day boarding school. Rugby will be available through club system of course it is and I never said otherwise, if anything I said Roscrea has encouraged both for its Connacht players which is a considerable bulk of the school. Explain to me how it works that a player will play matches at the weekend but no training with the club side? I've done it in Gaelic Football for my local side and the resentment from some team mates of playing and no training became too much and I quit. What I'm reading from above you're saying, you can train with your school mates during the week and hold a tackle bag, but sorry no games unless it is with the club at the weekend. Think he is going to be interested in rugby for much longer?
I've done it in Gaelic Football for my local side and the resentment from some team mates of playing and no training became too much and I quit. I know plenty of lads who did the same.
Financial backing will never not be a major role in winning cups it doesn't matter what school it is. I don't like it, you don't like it but it will always be a major part.
The biggest issue that is knockable in underage rugby is the exclusivity of only playing for schools and not allowed for clubs.0 -
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The Lost Sheep wrote: »Players already are doing it. They Go home on a Friday, train and then play on weekend in club. You are not reading what im saying. The schools system as the be all and end all has to end. By stopping schools using financial strength and for peoples wealth to play a role in their chances of "making it" has to be decreased. This change does this.
see i agree and disagree with you here. Yes we need the club game to start contributing but by raising the standards at club level. not by hindering the schools.
"By stopping schools using financial strength and for peoples wealth to play a role in their chances of "making it" has to be decreased. "
How will taking finance out of the game of rugby overall help improve standards? Schools spending money on facilities/S&C etc is essential because the IRFU currently don't. They should, but they don't. And any finance they have for that sort of thing should be funneled into the clubs.0 -
What is hindering the schools though? Their enrolment will still be about the same and it helps protect the clubs who have nothing of many of the resources schools have. Would what I am saying really going to reduce standards?see i agree and disagree with you here. Yes we need the club game to start contributing but by raising the standards at club level. not by hindering the schools.
"By stopping schools using financial strength and for peoples wealth to play a role in their chances of "making it" has to be decreased. "
How will taking finance out of the game of rugby overall help improve standards? Schools spending money on facilities/S&C etc is essential because the IRFU currently don't. They should, but they don't. And any finance they have for that sort of thing should be funneled into the clubs.0 -
The Lost Sheep wrote: »What is hindering the schools though? Their enrolment will still be about the same and it helps protect the clubs who have nothing of many of the resources schools have. Would what I am saying really going to reduce standards?
To be honest Lost sheep i don't actually know what your main gripe is. All i see is you posting giving out about the schools game and looking for a better deal for clubs.
you said
" By stopping schools using financial strength and for peoples wealth to play a role in their chances of "making it" has to be decreased."
Wealth doesn't make someone "make it" actualising their playing ability helps them "make it" the fact the clubs have such a low representation in the irish world cup squad and assuming a reasonably equal spread of talent it would suggest schools have a better system for players actualising their ability. Clubs are letting down their players. I can totally understand why a bright prospect would want to go to a rugby school where there are better facilities and better coaching.
For the record i am against the Scholarship thing but until club underage rugby improves i don't agree with a lot of your arguments for the club game.0 -
I don't think schools should be allowed use financial support in a major way to advantage them in win a bloody schools cup competition. There is serious issues with the way underage rugby is run in this country and it needs a radical overhaul.To be honest Lost sheep i don't actually know what your main gripe is. All i see is you posting giving out about the schools game and looking for a better deal for clubs.
you said
" By stopping schools using financial strength and for peoples wealth to play a role in their chances of "making it" has to be decreased."
Wealth doesn't make someone "make it" actualising their playing ability helps them "make it" the fact the clubs have such a low representation in the irish world cup squad and assuming a reasonably equal spread of talent it would suggest schools have a better system for players actualising their ability. Clubs are letting down their players. I can totally understand why a bright prospect would want to go to a rugby school where there are better facilities and better coaching.
For the record i am against the Scholarship thing but until club underage rugby improves i don't agree with a lot of your arguments for the club game.
Wealth does play a role in "making it". Just look at where the majority of people whove played at top level of rugby attended school - bar exceptions of Limerick and some outliers.
A persons ability to attend a fee paying school clearly does aid their chances of "making it"
What clubs are letting down their players? That is an incredible statement that you have to back up. How are clubs letting the kids down exactly?0 -
The Lost Sheep wrote: »I don't think schools should be allowed use financial support in a major way to advantage them in win a bloody schools cup competition. There is serious issues with the way underage rugby is run in this country and it needs a radical overhaul.
Wealth does play a role in "making it". Just look at where the majority of people whove played at top level of rugby attended school - bar exceptions of Limerick and some outliers.
A persons ability to attend a fee paying school clearly does aid their chances of "making it"
What clubs are letting down their players? That is an incredible statement that you have to back up. How are clubs letting the kids down exactly?
You are saying a persons wealth helps them make it.
i'm saying this is only by dint of the schools helping them actualise their talent.
why is this the case? If Clubs were as fantastic as you are saying what is holding them back?
i don't think clubs "let down" there players. They provide a brilliant outlet and introduction to rugby. Sorry if that came across like that and take that back. but why are players not making it to the top end from the club game. It has to be facilities, coaching or standard of play. Don't resent the schools game so much just because they have been successful in providing this.0 -
I don't resent the schools game but think regulations like 12/20month rule etc stopping those who move from playing competitions straight away are good for the game and protect the clubs who don't have the same resources schools have.You are saying a persons wealth helps them make it.
i'm saying this is only by dint of the schools helping them actualise their talent.
why is this the case? If Clubs were as fantastic as you are saying what is holding them back?
i don't think clubs "let down" there players. They provide a brilliant outlet and introduction to rugby. Sorry if that came across like that and take that back. but why are players not making it to the top end from the club game. It has to be facilities, coaching or standard of play. Don't resent the schools game so much just because they have been successful in providing this.
Im saying the focus on the schools, fee paying, in specific areas has hurt the image of the sport and hasn't helped overall development of the sport across the country.
Clubs provide more than an intro to the sport. Players are "making it" in greater quantities from the club game and rules like this are better for the sport as it helps the club game keep the players who are improving standards stay in the game and improve standards of those around them0 -
To be honest Lost sheep i don't actually know what your main gripe is. All i see is you posting giving out about the schools game and looking for a better deal for clubs.
you said
" By stopping schools using financial strength and for peoples wealth to play a role in their chances of "making it" has to be decreased."
Wealth doesn't make someone "make it" actualising their playing ability helps them "make it" the fact the clubs have such a low representation in the irish world cup squad and assuming a reasonably equal spread of talent it would suggest schools have a better system for players actualising their ability. Clubs are letting down their players. I can totally understand why a bright prospect would want to go to a rugby school where there are better facilities and better coaching.
For the record i am against the Scholarship thing but until club underage rugby improves i don't agree with a lot of your arguments for the club game.
This argument is ridiculous, to imply the school is the sole reason behind a players success is absolute nonsense. I'd like to see an analysis of how many senior cups winners in schools played club rugby outside of school and played before joining said school.
Also, the scholarship thing is a bit of a misnomer for example are you saying Dave O'Connor, Conor Oliver, Joey Carberry and Jeremy Loughmann only went to the U20 world cup because they spent a year or 2 in Rock? Is that the only reason they made the Academies? Has it nothing to do with the significantly higher number of years they had playing club rugby?
How arrogant and ignorant to suggest so. If club rugby was so awful why are these schools offering scholarships and how are these guys usurping people who have had 4 or 5 or 6 years of this amazing school rugby upbringing?0 -
I'd also like to see the rule of schools cup players not being allowed play club rugby removed. Maybe removing that would help stop the drop off in standard in clubs at a certain age i.e. cup ages.0
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I'd say if Loughman and O'Connor didn't go to Rock they wouldn't be in an Academy tbh.0
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Seeing as we've veered so off topic now it would be interesting to see a breakdown of all contracted players senior and academy and where they came from and how many years they spent in a fee paying school. David O'Connor moved from Skerries for most of his secondary school years I believe but his brother alan played all his underage with Skerries. Conor Oliver only did 6th year in Blackrock.
For me the most important thing is to provide top quality players to play for the national team. A schools aim is to win the senior cup so probably getting players to peak at 18 is not always going to be the best long-term for that player.0
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