Leinster schools league/cup 2015/2016 senior&junior

The Lost Sheep

Tarf1234 wrote: »

I'd also like to see the rule of schools cup players not being allowed play club rugby removed. Maybe removing that would help stop the drop off in standard in clubs at a certain age i.e. cup ages.

To what extent though?
No players in plenty of the bigger schools play with a club. Maybe limit those playing the schools cups to some club competitions to ensure kids keep links with clubs through their teens to help linking with clubs for when theyre adults but if playing on the schools 3rds/4ths you should be allowed play both.

Hagz wrote: »

I'd say if Loughman and O'Connor didn't go to Rock they wouldn't be in an Academy tbh.

I don't think so. Both would have been in provincial youths set ups and regional set ups and getting the training and games needed.

its_phil

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Players already are doing it. They Go home on a Friday, train and then play on weekend in club. You are not reading what im saying. The schools system as the be all and end all has to end. By stopping schools using financial strength and for peoples wealth to play a role in their chances of "making it" has to be decreased. This change does this.

Eh no they don't. School on Saturday morning, from 9 to 12:30 and defeats the purpose of seven day boarding. Exceptions made for players at decent level in GAA and Rugby but only for games on Saturday evening/Sunday.

You're asking to move a mountain. Money is always going to talk at schools level, the programs ran are at an elite level. Which is a double edged sword, club kids not getting it but do you pull it from schools? The boosters are not going to stop, regardless of improvement in clubs and access to players. I don't agree with it, but that's the hand we've developed in Irish rugby.

Hagz

The role of wealth in player's chances of making it needs to be decreased, but that shouldn't be achieved by limiting the school's use of finances. That would just decrease the quality of player being produced in school. Improve the resources at clubs, spread sport into public schools, look at re-structuring the school's tournament.

Tarf1234

Hagz wrote: »

The role of wealth in player's chances of making it needs to be decreased, but that shouldn't be achieved by limiting the school's use of finances. That would just decrease the quality of player being produced in school. Improve the resources at clubs, spread sport into public schools, look at re-structuring the school's tournament.

They'll never agree to restructuring the cup.. While the schools still hold all of the power and the branch retain none that just won't happen.

The Lost Sheep

Hagz wrote: »

The role of wealth in player's chances of making it needs to be decreased, but that shouldn't be achieved by limiting the school's use of finances. That would just decrease the quality of player being produced in school. Improve the resources at clubs, spread sport into public schools, look at re-structuring the school's tournament.

The role does need to be decreased. What I suggested was radical and would never happen but something needs to change. I don't think limiting a schools financial backing would decrease standards.
How would you restructure the schools tournaments?

Tarf1234 wrote: »

They'll never agree to restructuring the cup.. While the schools still hold all of the power and the branch retain none that just won't happen.

Who exactly do you mean by they(some schools - all)? I would imagine some would prefer a change but we don't/won't really know....

Tarf1234

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

How would you restructure the schools tournaments?

Who exactly do you mean by they(some schools - all)? I would imagine some would prefer a change but we don't/won't really know....

I mean the likes of Rock, Clongowes, Michaels, Belvo etc. The high end schools. I can't imagine the lower level schools are anywhere near as fond of the golden goose..

I don't see why they wouldn't change to the modern format of most competitions, league structure into play offs (pro 12 etc)/knock out rugby (S15/HCup). I'd imagine the smaller schools (CUS/Andrews/Newbridge/Roscrea) would benefits massively from this. I also think it would be hugely beneficial for the section A schools to follow a format like that. More competitive rugby for all.

Blackrock, Clongowes etc. wouldn't like it as it might mean some year they'd miss out on the knock out rugby. So it will never happen...

Hagz

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

The role does need to be decreased. What I suggested was radical and would never happen but something needs to change. I don't think limiting a schools financial backing would decrease standards.
How would you restructure the schools tournaments?

I'm confused by what exactly you would hope to achieve by limiting a school's financial backing. Are you referring solely to the scholarship aspect or are you including coaching and facilities?

I think the school's tournament is too intense and short lived personally. I think having knock-out rugby from the word go is a bit unfair. Especially when you have two very good teams up against one another in round 1. But then I know it's difficult to extend it in any way due to the Leaving Cert.

Tarf1234

Hagz wrote: »

I'm confused by what exactly you would hope to achieve by limiting a school's financial backing. Are you referring solely to the scholarship aspect or are you including coaching and facilities?

I think the school's tournament is too intense and short lived personally. I think having knock-out rugby from the word go is a bit unfair. Especially when you have two very good teams up against one another in round 1. But then I know it's difficult to extend it in any way due to the Leaving Cert.

Combine Sect B and C start a league when most leagues start (Oct not Feb) and it is in no way too long. Have 3 or 4 groups play semi's and final. that could be finished even earlier depending on when you start it... No first game knock outs and less ridiculous pressure on the kids. Alter as you see fit to get all the teams in or get however many league games you want.

The Lost Sheep

Tarf1234 wrote: »

I mean the likes of Rock, Clongowes, Michaels, Belvo etc. The high end schools. I can't imagine the lower level schools are anywhere near as fond of the golden goose..

I don't see why they wouldn't change to the modern format of most competitions, league structure into play offs (pro 12 etc)/knock out rugby (S15/HCup). I'd imagine the smaller schools (CUS/Andrews/Newbridge/Roscrea) would benefits massively from this. I also think it would be hugely beneficial for the section A schools to follow a format like that. More competitive rugby for all.

Blackrock, Clongowes etc. wouldn't like it as it might mean some year they'd miss out on the knock out rugby. So it will never happen...

So the "Big 6" those who don't compete in the schools league.
I think the lack of any change from the current format is proof of nobody wanting change.

Hagz wrote: »

I'm confused by what exactly you would hope to achieve by limiting a school's financial backing. Are you referring solely to the scholarship aspect or are you including coaching and facilities?

I think the school's tournament is too intense and short lived personally. I think having knock-out rugby from the word go is a bit unfair. Especially when you have two very good teams up against one another in round 1. But then I know it's difficult to extend it in any way due to the Leaving Cert.

Limit financial support to stop incentivising players to join, to get volunteers involved like in many other sports at schools level.

Talking about there cant be changes to the competition due to the leaving cert is a cop out. I know there is feeder competitions to the schools cups but the main leinster cups have 16 games played over 5 or so weeks. There is more than enough time to extend the competition to provide more meaningful competitive games for all.

gazump123

Is the 20 month rule only in Leinster or is it in the other provinces as well? And when does it take affect?

The Lost Sheep

gazump123 wrote: »

Is the 20 month rule only in Leinster or is it in the other provinces as well? And when does it take affect?

There is a similar rule in place in Munster. There was opposition to changes to eligibility regulations made by the Munster schools committee a few years back with Jerry Flannery very prominent in the discussions.
Those rules are not in place in Connacht - which tbf is different and regulations quite different to other provinces. Don't know how things work in Ulster

OceanSixteen

St Michaels lost to Belvedere 16-3 today

cuprugby333

Terenure beat clongowes 35-5

The Lost Sheep

Castletroy beat Glenstal in Limerick City Cup final 21-15 yesterday

gazump123

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

There is a similar rule in place in Munster. There was opposition to changes to eligibility regulations made by the Munster schools committee a few years back with Jerry Flannery very prominent in the discussions.
Those rules are not in place in Connacht - which tbf is different and regulations quite different to other provinces. Don't know how things work in Ulster

What's the rule in Munster?

The Lost Sheep

gazump123 wrote: »

What's the rule in Munster?

A qualified schoolboy is one who has, in the case of the Munster Schools Senior Cup, (subject to the exceptions as outlined in the Schedule below) been continually in full regular attendance during school hours (except in case of illness) and being in his second academic year of the school’s academic program and so registered at that school on 1st October in both years in accordance with registration at schools under the Department of Education and Skills regulations.
exceptions:
1. In the case of an “A”School such school is entitled to play (only) 3 schoolboys, who have previously been registered in another School, in the Munster Senior Schools Cup competition in the same academic year in which the said schoolboy(s) transfer schools;
2. In the case of a schoolboy who has in the previous academic year attended a school outside of the province of Munster.
3. In the case of a schoolboy whose parents or guardians have moved house within the province of Munster.
4. In other cases, where the Age Grade Committee of Munster Branch IRFU agree that the non-participation by a schoolboy in the Munster Schools Cup for his new school would be unreasonable.

The Lost Sheep

Ulster Schools’ Cup opening round draws made this evening
Preliminary Round-to be played on/before 12th December.
Carrickfergus Grammar School v Strabane Academy

Round 1-to be played on 9th January
Larne Grammar School v Royal School, Armagh
Lurgan College v Portadown College
Cambridge House School v Limavady Grammar School
Wellington College, Belfast v Friends’ School, Lisburn
Royal School, Dungannon v Winners of Preliminary Round
Banbridge Academy v Antrim Grammar School
Belfast High School v Foyle and Londonderry College

The Lost Sheep

Munster Schools draws made this evening
Draws for both senior and junior the same.
Glenstal v Castletroy, St Clements/High School Clonmel v PBC Cork, Rockwell v Bandon Grammar, Crescent Comp v CBC Cork, Ard Scoil Ris v St Munchins

RedemptionZ

Who are the favourites in Leinster? Blackrock and Belvo I'm assuming?

rughug

RedemptionZ wrote: »

Who are the favourites in Leinster? Blackrock and Belvo I'm assuming?

Yeah. Rock and Belvo have all their sixth year stars back. Mullen , Dean , Mc Gowan, Doris for Rock and De Jongh, O Sullivan , and the outhalf for Belvo. Can't see beyond these two especially after the hurt of last year.

lesterfreeman

Rock have to be favourites have a lot of talent bar the front row, 5-14 could all be leinster reps, althought they've lost their coach.

5. Charlie Ryan(u18
6. Andrew Murphy(u18)
7. Johnny Fairley(u18)
8. Caelan Doris(u18)
9. Paddy Patterson(u18)
10. Conor Dean(u18)
11. James McGowan(u19)
12. Tommy O'Brien(u18)
13. Gavin Mullin(u19)
14. Steven Kilgallen(u19)

Not sure on Belvo and I wouldn't write off Roscrea making another run, still have a huge pack.

Michaels/Clongowes have dipped.

RedemptionZ

Michaels have a fairly big pack too but most I've talked to don't seem to be giving them a chance. Not feasible for them to keep producing good teams with small numbers. As far as I'm aware the current 2nd years are the next hope, think they're providing the bulk of the JCT though it's always way too early at that age to predict who'll be the best in four years time.

lesterfreeman

RedemptionZ wrote: »

Michaels have a fairly big pack too but most I've talked to don't seem to be giving them a chance. Not feasible for them to keep producing good teams with small numbers. As far as I'm aware the current 2nd years are the next hope, think they're providing the bulk of the JCT though it's always way too early at that age to predict who'll be the best in four years time.

Michaels have good individual talents but they don't have a good enough team 1-15.

Skeptical of their coaching tbh, with the right draw they could make it far though.

All depends on the draw really.

RedemptionZ

lesterfreeman wrote: »

Michaels have good individual talents but they don't have a good enough team 1-15.

Skeptical of their coaching tbh, with the right draw they could make it far though.

All depends on the draw really.

Last year coaching wasn't great in the sense that they decided to play a kicking game without a proper kicker in the team. If BOM and his coaching staff had played more to their strengths things could've been very different. Think Skehan is the coach this year and he tends to get results. We'll see.

lesterfreeman

RedemptionZ wrote: »

Last year coaching wasn't great in the sense that they decided to play a kicking game without a proper kicker in the team. If BOM and his coaching staff had played more to their strengths things could've been very different. Think Skehan is the coach this year and he tends to get results. We'll see.

they don't have the talent this year to really contend.. team will look something like this:

1. Robert Duffy(6th)
2. Ronan Kelleher(6th)
3. Sam Griffin(6th)
4. Ryan Baird(4th)
5. Jack Dunne(5th)
6. Oisin Dowling(6th)
7. Scott Penny(4th)
8. Barry Fitzpatrick(6th)
9. Peter O'Beirne(5th)
10. Harry Byrne(5th)
11. Chris Carey(5th)
12. Ian O'Kelly(5th)
13. James Hickey(6th)
14. Michael Heaney(5th)
15. Jack Kelly(6th)

RedemptionZ

lesterfreeman wrote: »

they don't have the talent this year to really contend.. team will look something like this:

1. Robert Duffy(6th)
2. Ronan Kelleher(6th)
3. Sam Griffin(6th)
4. Ryan Baird(4th)
5. Jack Dunne(5th)
6. Oisin Dowling(6th)
7. Scott Penny(4th)
8. Barry Fitzpatrick(6th)
9. Peter O'Beirne(5th)
10. Harry Byrne(5th)
11. Chris Carey(5th)
12. Ian O'Kelly(5th)
13. James Hickey(6th)
14. Michael Heaney(5th)
15. Jack Kelly(6th)

Yeah I haven't seen any schools matches this year so I'm only going off what I'm hearing, which is fairly pessimistic towards them, but you never know. It doesn't bode well though if there's that many 5th years on the team when those 5th years were at best third behind Rock and Belvo in JCT.

rughug

Any word on Junior Team form in Leinster with the leagues drawing to a conclusion now, and when are the Leinster draws made. Ulster and Munster done.

lesterfreeman

rughug wrote: »

Any word on Junior Team form in Leinster with the leagues drawing to a conclusion now, and when are the Leinster draws made. Ulster and Munster done.

Blackrock or Terenure, maybe Belvo.

Roscrea's recruitment might make them a factor too.

Bridge93

Talking to a coach in Rock about a month ago who was telling me if they win the junior cup it'll be the 3rd time a 4-in-a-row has been done after Belvedere and Rock themselves.

It's themselves and Terenure who are being talked about early.
Seniors will be Rock, Belvo or Roscrea

FrannoFan

lesterfreeman wrote: »

Blackrock or Terenure, maybe Belvo.

Roscrea's recruitment might make them a factor too.

Rock by a distance favourites

Roscrea lost to gonzaga and castleknock in the league.

Gerard's unbeaten in their side of league then lost to the fourth placed Kilkenny in quarter final.
Basically can't tell with 15 year olds