New R&A Rules from 1/1/19

FixdePitchmark · 22-01-2019 1:27pm

I find it a big advantage and for that reason don't like new rule.

I don't like any interference with the integrity of the score or maths of the game.

I know I'm an outlier in this view.

Johnny_Fontane · 22-01-2019 1:48pm

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

I find it a big advantage and for that reason don't like new rule.

I don't like any interference with the integrity of the score or maths of the game.

I know I'm an outlier in this view.

I wouldn't say its a big advantage to scoring. Its a very minor advantage, but much more importantly, it speeds up play. If it helps my putting, well, its a win win. Cant see any reason to remove the flag after a couple of rounds with it in.

Seve OB · 22-01-2019 2:16pm

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

I find it a big advantage and for that reason don't like new rule.

I don't like any interference with the integrity of the score or maths of the game.

I know I'm an outlier in this view.

i'm with you

frink · 22-01-2019 2:53pm

I still take out the flag for putts, been playing for too long with the flag out.

Its good that for the longer ones you don't need anyone to attend it

Russman · 22-01-2019 2:57pm

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

I find it a big advantage and for that reason don't like new rule.

I don't like any interference with the integrity of the score or maths of the game.

I know I'm an outlier in this view.

I can totally see your point Fix, but where does one draw the line with "integrity of the score" ? Personally I don't care one way or the other about the flag being in or out. The same argument could be made about any rule change that's ever been made - removing the stymie, dropping in front of yourself instead of over the shoulder etc etc. Every change could, however tenuously, be argued to make the game easier. I think it just comes down to what we've grown up with or are used to. In 20 years time some junior won't even know we used to have to remove the flag. His score will still be his score as per the rules at the time. For example, moving the ball when searching for it, I'm sure somebody doing that now won't be thinking "jeez I should really penalise myself there, after all, it was a penalty a month ago and I feel like I'm gaining unfairly", they'll just be glad its not and move on IMO.

Even the new local rule for OOB, I know and fully understand (and to be honest, mostly agree) why CONGU won't allow it for counting competitions, but I still feel its a bit dramatic in a way. We play by the rules as they stand, not as they used to be or as we think they probably should be. Someone starting out the game and playing by the new local rule (if it was in play) would never know any different or that it used to be stroke and distance. They'd never get to feel the new way is easier. Same, opposite argument could be made about removing the opposite side relief with lateral hazards or penalty areas.

slave1 · 22-01-2019 3:23pm

Perfect example of flag in making sense, two of us on the fringe last weekend, nice putt from player 1 and left it about 6 inches from the hole, no flapping about marking/taking the flag out and leaving it on the green/taking it out and putting one handed, he went straight up and putted it in with flag in the hole, all over and done with in seconds

Seve OB · 22-01-2019 3:29pm

slave1 wrote: »

Perfect example of flag in making sense, two of us on the fringe last weekend, nice putt from player 1 and left it about 6 inches from the hole, no flapping about marking/taking the flag out and leaving it on the green/taking it out and putting one handed, he went straight up and putted it in with flag in the hole, all over and done with in seconds

i've done that. very handy quick and easy

everyone else I've played with so far has gone to the bother of taking it out

spacecoyote · 22-01-2019 3:38pm

Seve OB wrote: »

i've done that. very handy quick and easy

everyone else I've played with so far has gone to the bother of taking it out

Had some people I was playing with doing the opposite, was really frustrating.

Leaving the flag in on long putts, knocking it close, then taking out the flag for the short ones, made no sense to me

Johnny_Fontane · 22-01-2019 4:04pm

Everyone should try play a full round with the flag in. Its kind of exhilarating. I mean, its January, give it a go. Not like its going to affect your handicap.

Kiith · 22-01-2019 4:47pm

I've left it in for my two rounds so far, and i putt pretty well, so i'm assuming it's entirely down to keeping the flag in and will keep doing so :P

Euphoriasean · 22-01-2019 8:38pm

Anyone have a bounce out from the flag in on a putt?

FixdePitchmark · 22-01-2019 9:35pm

Euphoriasean wrote: »

Anyone have a bounce out from the flag in on a putt?

Yes , I've had two of them.

@ Russman - as always your points are well made, practical and difficult to argue against.

But the stats there are significantly different.

Whilst the points you make on all rule changes are valid - the impact is small. The hole in golf is fairly fundamental to our game.

DeChambeau jumping onto it was a red flag. I'm a bit perplexed that they let this rule into the pro game.

I get the intention - it is well intended. But it is fundamentally flawed.

It is like altering a pocket on a snooker table, it is like altering the wire on a dart board.

Again – I know I’m in a total minority – but I’m not entirely sure they understood this one – if they did , they are just flawed. You can’t go and change the golf hole when putting.

A golf hole with a flag in it - is not a hole. – scientifically, mathematically, statistically or logically.

Again – I know I’m out there on this. But find it daft. A mistake.

dan_ep82 · 22-01-2019 9:50pm

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

A golf hole with a flag in it - is not a hole. – scientifically, mathematically, statistically or logically.

FixdePitchmark · 22-01-2019 9:57pm

Remind me · 22-01-2019 10:22pm

slave1 wrote: »

Perfect example of flag in making sense, two of us on the fringe last weekend, nice putt from player 1 and left it about 6 inches from the hole, no flapping about marking/taking the flag out and leaving it on the green/taking it out and putting one handed, he went straight up and putted it in with flag in the hole, all over and done with in seconds

If the other hand was holding the flag while knocking in a putt that is a penalty as far as I know.

Seve OB · 22-01-2019 10:48pm

Remind me wrote: »

If the other hand was holding the flag while knocking in a putt that is a penalty as far as I know.

No it's not, don't think it ever was.

Remind me · 22-01-2019 11:56pm

Seve OB wrote: »

No it's not, don't think it ever was.

Just looked it up, you are right, player just can’t rest against the flagstick or use it for balance.

Seve OB · 23-01-2019 12:04am

Remind me wrote: »

Just looked it up, you are right, player just can’t rest against the flagstick or use it for balance.

was a common mistake people used to believe was against the rules

GreeBo · 23-01-2019 9:47am

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

I find it a big advantage and for that reason don't like new rule.

I don't like any interference with the integrity of the score or maths of the game.

I know I'm an outlier in this view.

I guess you dont own a lob wedge and still use hickory & persimmon to hit your gutta-percha?:rolleyes:

Russman · 23-01-2019 3:01pm

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Yes , I've had two of them.

@ Russman - as always your points are well made, practical and difficult to argue against.

But the stats there are significantly different.

Whilst the points you make on all rule changes are valid - the impact is small. The hole in golf is fairly fundamental to our game.

DeChambeau jumping onto it was a red flag. I'm a bit perplexed that they let this rule into the pro game.

I get the intention - it is well intended. But it is fundamentally flawed.

It is like altering a pocket on a snooker table, it is like altering the wire on a dart board.

Again – I know I’m in a total minority – but I’m not entirely sure they understood this one – if they did , they are just flawed. You can’t go and change the golf hole when putting.

A golf hole with a flag in it - is not a hole. – scientifically, mathematically, statistically or logically.

Again – I know I’m out there on this. But find it daft. A mistake.

Thanks Fix.
As I said I can see where you're coming from. I don't honestly mind either way with the flag and in the 4 or 5 games I've had this year, my group has pretty much carried on as before, I'd say 99% of the time mostly out of habit. I do think this rule change is a solution looking for a problem though tbh. That said, its part of the rules and we're obliged to play by them.

Out of all the countless discussions I've seen/had/read about slow play I can't remember anyone ever suggesting leaving the flag in would help things. Slow play is down to slow players, simples. For sure you get people marking the card while still on the green and doing silly stuff like that, but for the most part its just people taking too long to play.

Russman · 23-01-2019 3:02pm

GreeBo wrote: »

I guess you dont own a lob wedge and still use hickory & persimmon to hit your gutta-percha?:rolleyes:

I have to hold my hand up to the lob wedge thing

:D

slave1 · 23-01-2019 3:05pm

Russman wrote: »

Thanks Fix.
As I said I can see where you're coming from. I don't honestly mind either way with the flag and in the 4 or 5 games I've had this year, my group has pretty much carried on as before, I'd say 99% of the time mostly out of habit. I do think this rule change is a solution looking for a problem though tbh. That said, its part of the rules and we're obliged to play by them.

Out of all the countless discussions I've seen/had/read about slow play I can't remember anyone ever suggesting leaving the flag in would help things. Slow play is down to slow players, simples. For sure you get people marking the card while still on the green and doing silly stuff like that, but for the most part its just people taking too long to play.

I agree with some of your points but I also believe slow play is death by 100 cuts and the flag in can only speed things up

GreeBo · 23-01-2019 3:12pm

slave1 wrote: »

I agree with some of your points but I also believe slow play is death by 100 cuts and the flag in can only speed things up

I'm finding that slow players are now even slower as they fart about getting the flag in and out :mad:

Normal/fast players are faster though

FixdePitchmark · 23-01-2019 5:42pm

GreeBo wrote: »

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

I find it a big advantage and for that reason don't like new rule.

I don't like any interference with the integrity of the score or maths of the game.

I know I'm an outlier in this view.

I guess you dont own a lob wedge and still use hickory & persimmon to hit your gutta-percha?:rolleyes:

What on earth has that got to do with what we are talking about.

As a man of numbers GreeBo, surprised at that post.

HighLine · 23-01-2019 5:56pm

Not sure if the argument about whether the new flag rule should be in place is worth while.. the rule is here, it's not going to change anytime soon.

In my own club, unfortunately most people are still pulling out the flag for medium to short range putts. Time will change that hopefully as people will learn it is to their advantage in most cases to putt with the pin in.

GreeBo · 24-01-2019 10:32am

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

What on earth has that got to do with what we are talking about.

As a man of numbers GreeBo, surprised at that post.

I thought it was pretty obvious, but let me break it down for you.

FixdePitchmark wrote:

I find it a big advantage and for that reason don't like new rule.

I don't like any interference with the integrity of the score or maths of the game.

So you don't find a lob wedge or your 460cc, graphite shafted driver to be an advantage over persimmon headed or hickory shafted clubs?

How about the ball you use? You dont think a Prov1 is a big advantage over a gutta-percha?

tbh it just kinda seems like you are trying to make some big "oh I'm a classical golfer" point but missing the irony.

FixdePitchmark · 24-01-2019 11:16am

@ GreeBo

The rules of the game are the rules - it would be daft to say your not going to play by them , that is just illogical.

But on a golf forum you can talk about the rule changes / ones you like / don't like.

I'm fairly sure you are looking at certain rules and not overly impressed or have a few other ideas. Is there any you like ? or don't like ?

Equipment modernization and the flag enabling a change in putting statistic are two different topics.

Both very valid.

But the rules are the rules - you'd be an idiot to not take the advantage this offers. But it changes putting, no real debate. The impact on scores is another days work.

spacecoyote · 24-01-2019 12:47pm

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

@ GreeBo

The rules of the game are the rules - it would be daft to say your not going to play by them , that is just illogical.

But on a golf forum you can talk about the rule changes / ones you like / don't like.

I'm fairly sure you are looking at certain rules and not overly impressed or have a few other ideas. Is there any you like ? or don't like ?

Equipment modernization and the flag enabling a change in putting statistic are two different topics.

Both very valid.

But the rules are the rules - you'd be an idiot to not take the advantage this offers. But it changes putting, no real debate. The impact on scores is another days work.

Have to say I lean with you on this one Fix. I get where Greebo is coming from, but I do think its arguing 2 different points.

One is an Equipment change (which has no bearing on rules), the other is a rules change.

Yes, both ultimately are providing the same end result...an improvement in performance, but that wasn't the intention of both.

The equipment was updated to make the game easier (consciously so)

My understanding (and I'm open to correction) is that the rule was updated to make the game faster (and indirectly appears to have made the game easier as a result)

In terms of rules I'm not liking, the drop one is definitely the worst. It should read drop must take place from at least knee height.

Mantis Toboggan · 24-01-2019 12:53pm

Question folks, with the new rule of dropping from the knee, what is the punishment for someone dropping from shoulder height?

GreeBo · 24-01-2019 1:00pm

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

@ GreeBo

The rules of the game are the rules - it would be daft to say your not going to play by them , that is just illogical.

But on a golf forum you can talk about the rule changes / ones you like / don like.

I'm fairly sure you are looking at certain rules and not overly impressed or have a few other ideas. Is there any you like ? or don't like ?

Equipment modernization and the flag enabling a change in putting statistic are two different topics.

Both very valid.

But the rules are the rules - you'd be an idiot to not take the advantage this offers. But it changes putting, no real debate. The impact on scores is another days work.

There are very explicit rules on equipment that only exist to control and limit advantages in the game. Rules are rules. Why do you think the rule change on the flag is different on the rule change on COR for example?

You have somehow decided that "flag in" is crossing some imaginary line yet 460cc drivers are A ok and you are being all high and mighty about it as if you are some guardian of the essence of golf.

PhuckHugh2 · 24-01-2019 1:09pm

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Equipment modernization and the flag enabling a change in putting statistic are two different topics.

Is there a study or article to back up this? Or is it just a guess?

Id be leaning towards Greebo on this argument it seems you are trying to take some moral high ground for the sake of sounding like it is for the greater good of the game. I don't see the problem with any of the rule changes myself. If anything its good to know that Golf is being proactive and updating rules in an attempt to make the game better. Whether that is the case or not is another story.

GreeBo · 24-01-2019 1:18pm

spacecoyote wrote: »

My understanding (and I'm open to correction) is that the rule was updated to make the game faster (and indirectly appears to have made the game easier as a result)

I'm pretty sure I heard John Parramore say in an interview that it wasn't about speed, but cant find anything to confirm it.

/edit Thomas Pagel from USGA kinda says both.

Pagel explained that the intent of the flag rule was to speed up play, not to give players a competitive advantage.

“We said, 'If you make a long putt and you happen to hit the flagstick, is there really a need for a penalty?' The ball might go in. It might not,” Pagel said. “We didn’t look at the data. It was not a data-driven decision. At the end of the day, we thought it might help players, but it also might hurt players.”

In terms of rules I'm not liking, the drop one is definitely the worst. It should read drop must take place from at least knee height.

I think its very awkward to drop from knee height, I would have gone with dropping from a limp arm. It feels ridiculous having to bend over to drop from your knee.

Dbu · 24-01-2019 1:48pm

Mantis Toboggan wrote: »

Question folks, with the new rule of dropping from the knee, what is the punishment for someone dropping from shoulder height?

None, just call him a muppet and tell him he must re-drop from the knee:pac:

spacecoyote · 24-01-2019 3:14pm

PhuckHugh2 wrote: »

Is there a study or article to back up this? Or is it just a guess?

Id be leaning towards Greebo on this argument it seems you are trying to take some moral high ground for the sake of sounding like it is for the greater good of the game. I don't see the problem with any of the rule changes myself. If anything its good to know that Golf is being proactive and updating rules in an attempt to make the game better. Whether that is the case or not is another story.

This was posted earlier in the thread:

https://mygolfspy.com/flagstick-in-flagstick-out-2019-new-golf-rules/

FixdePitchmark · 24-01-2019 3:21pm

Lol - on the posts saying I think I'm a guardian of the sport.

I think this quote says they didn't know what they were doing.

“We didn’t look at the data. It was not a data-driven decision. At the end of the day, we thought it might help players, but it also might hurt players.”

People should look at the stats.

Anyway , the game will go on.

But - I think the new rule is a mess. Agree with GreeBo on one thing , slow players will somehow make this slow. They are just slow doing stuff , no matter what it is.

HighLine · 24-01-2019 4:18pm

spacecoyote wrote: »

In terms of rules I'm not liking, the drop one is definitely the worst. It should read drop must take place from at least knee height.

I'd imagine the reason for not doing so is to stop lads dropping it from shoulder height who are trying to get the ball to roll outside the relief area twice and so they get to place it up. This is also slow.

Mantis Toboggan wrote: »

Question folks, with the new rule of dropping from the knee, what is the punishment for someone dropping from shoulder height?

No penalty but they must re-drop the ball in the correct manner (from knee height). If they do not re-drop and then go on to play the ball, it will be a 1 stroke penalty.

PhuckHugh2 · 24-01-2019 4:25pm

spacecoyote wrote: »

This was posted earlier in the thread

Cheers. Missed that.

backspin. · 24-01-2019 9:48pm

Watching golf now on sky. Vast majority taking flag out.

HighLine · 24-01-2019 10:02pm

Rory just had a huge horseshoe which probably would have stayed in the hole had the flag been in.... cue next shot and it's Scott putting from 6ft with the flag in and the Beemer and Roe start questioning why he would do that.. "I don't get. Why is he leaving the flag in".... Adam sinks the putt. Idiots.

HighLine · 27-01-2019 7:28pm

Bit harsh here I would think. General penalty cost him to be demoted from T3 to T12

https://twitter.com/brijon5555/status/1089579263798460416

Seve OB · 27-01-2019 7:42pm

HighLine wrote: »

Bit harsh here I would think. General penalty cost him to be demoted from T3 to T12
]

Ah that was brutal

slave1 · 28-01-2019 12:33pm

Very harsh alright (I think this was more designed for the Ladies game where the caddy stays there until the last moment, even on iron shots) but an almost picture perfect example of the rule.
Don't like the rule at all but it is what it is, the caddy MUST get out of the way before the player begins taking his stance and he didn't in this case, he got out of the way momentarily after the player began taking his stance

HighLine · 28-01-2019 12:52pm

Yeah I agree that regarding the LPGA, having the caddies line up every shot looked ridiculous, so glad the rule came in to stop that.

One element of the rule which I think is strange/silly is the distinction between putting and all other shots. So for example, if Haotong Li above had walked away and then restarted the process of addressing the ball when the caddy was not there, there would be no penalty.

But.. for all other shots... even if the player backs away, goes back to the bag and then subsequently plays the shot when the caddy is not there, it is still a general penalty (2 strokes).

(4) Restriction on Caddie Standing Behind Player. When a player begins taking a stance for the stroke and until the stroke is made:

The player’s caddie must not deliberately stand in a location on or close to an extension of the line of play behind the ball for any reason.
If the player takes a stance in breach of this Rule, he or she cannot avoid penalty by backing away.
Exception – Ball on Putting Green: When the player’s ball is on the putting green, there is no penalty under this Rule if the player backs away from the stance and does not begin to take the stance again until after the caddie has moved out of that location.

Seve OB · 28-01-2019 2:53pm

that sounds a bit daft alright

Johnny_Fontane · 28-01-2019 3:13pm

Great to see Adam Scott putting away with the flag in this week.

Hopefully see more and more pros doing it.

death1234567 · 28-01-2019 3:15pm

Johnny_Fontane wrote: »

Great to see Adam Scott putting away with the flag in this week.
Hopefully see more and more pros doing it.

Hopefully they change the rule so you can't take the pin out, ever. No need for it.

Johnny_Fontane · 28-01-2019 3:22pm

death1234567 wrote: »

Hopefully they change the rule so you can't take the pin out, ever. No need for it.

yep completely agree. Said it before on the thread, play a full round with it in and you'll quickly wonder why you'd ever take it out.

idle · 29-01-2019 1:09am

Came up at the weekend. Ball embedded in the grass face of a bunker. Dropping within 1 club length either side results in the ball in the bunker. Must the ball then be played from the bunker?

29-01-2019 8:02am

death1234567 wrote: »

Hopefully they change the rule so you can't take the pin out, ever. No need for it.

Its fine for the pros on perfect golf courses but less then perfect courses can have flags which are leaning one way or another which could impede the ball going in the hole,

FixdePitchmark · 29-01-2019 10:11am

death1234567 wrote: »

Johnny_Fontane wrote: »

Great to see Adam Scott putting away with the flag in this week.
Hopefully see more and more pros doing it.

Hopefully they change the rule so you can't take the pin out, ever. No need for it.

No wind and pin type a significant influence on choice.

If wind is in face, you simply have to take flag out.

New R&A Rules from 1/1/19

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