Dublin Bus Changes to Improve City Center Journeys

devnull · 09-02-2018 1:33pm

dashcamdanny wrote: »

That is not the case all of the time. I was stuck through 3 very long light sequences on fleet street with a full bus yesterday.
A tram was behind a bus trying to go past at the Garda station onto Collages green. The bus could not move as there was no space in front of the yellow box. Tram blocked the box. No one could move till the taxi traffic eased.

So you're saying the bus, blocked the yellow box which then blocked the tram behind it, which then blocked everything behind it in turn? Doesn't sound like a tram issue to me, tram not being able to get through was a symptom, not the root cause of the issues that you describe.

The big question is why did the bus pull into a yellow box and consider that it would be okay to queue there - surely if there was no room on the road ahead of the yellow box then you don't enter the yellow box in the first place?

devnull · 09-02-2018 1:42pm

hmmm wrote: »

The city centre is rife with taxis using their magical flashing lights, cars stopped in yellow boxes, cars in the wrong lanes, delivery trucks parked everywhere. We are not Geneva.

My point is I want to do something about all of these things because none of them are acceptable because I believe in treating the causes of a problem since that's the only way to make the problem completely go away and all the other problems that are associated with it.

Simply shortening the LUAS because we don't want to do the hard work to tackle the fundamental problem that is the traffic offences that are allowed day in day out because we lack any proper enforcement of the rules of the road is a typical Irish 'that'll do' solution and illustrates exactly why we are not like Geneva and other cities who actually take traffic enforcement seriously.

I have traveled in many European countries in my time and honestly Dublin is one of the worst, if not the worst city for traffic offences for one simple reason - because the people who are carrying out know they can get away with it, and rather having public transport users suffer the impact of that, it's about time we started punishing the people who are causing the issues and took a zero tolerance approach to them.

But it seems some doctors want to keep on treating the symptoms and are fobbing the patient off and then wonder why the patient is still ill and keeps having relapses.

dashcamdanny · 09-02-2018 1:46pm

devnull wrote: »

So you're saying the bus, blocked the yellow box which then blocked the tram behind it, which then blocked everything behind it in turn?

The big question is why did the bus pull into a yellow box and consider that it would be okay to queue there? This is exactly the same as taxi drivers who simply treat the yellow bos as an extension of the queue in the non yellow box ahead of it.

No. The bus can not exit from Hawkins street area onto collage green unless the last set of lights are green and the yellow box has 30 feet clear ahead of it. The tram and bus share the same lane. This bus driver would not move unless he had the space to clear the box. In trying to be lawful, he caused a major blockage.

The fact is. This area is so badly designed, busses must break the law and block boxes or they will never move forward in the area. The roads law states you must not enter the yellow box junction unless you can clear it without stopping. This is not possible. Either coming from Hawkins street or Pierce street. You must push out through cycles and taxis or sit for literally hours.

They can change the sequence and small things like that, but it all comes down to volume IMO. Too many busses ..

Pete_Cavan · 09-02-2018 2:12pm

The Luas obviously got the signal to advance from Westmoreland Street onto OCB only to find that it was unable to continue onto OCS due to the taxi. The only way the Luas driver could have avoided getting stuck on the bridge would have been by staying on Westmoreland Street. Obviously before leaving Westmoreland, the Luas driver didn't know that a taxi would block the box on the other side of the bridge as the taxi probably wasn't even there yet. Unless Luas drivers are given the ability to see the future, there is no way that they can avoid such a situation.

It is clearly the taxi drivers fault.

Hurrache · 09-02-2018 2:57pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

It would help if the focus of reporting was on the moron who blocked the tram and not on the tram blocking traffic as if it was a luas screw up.

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Unless Luas drivers are given the ability to see the future, there is no way that they can avoid such a situation.

But as I said, it was always an inevitably that this would happen and should have been factored in. The Luas can't cross onto O'Connell Street because the junction is blocked or O'Connell Street itself is blocked, so the only obstruction should be to the Luas itself on the bridge, not the south quays and a knock on effect across the south city.

Simple and obvious solution was not to have the Luas longer than the bridge. No matter what system you design, be it transport or IT, you factor such things in and create solutions so as not to mess everything else up around it. When it was just cars they could be redirected around the obstruction without too much difficulty, can't happen with a Luas.

Take for example there's an accident at that junction, or as often happens, a protest. What happens then? The Luas is stuck on the bridge for an hour or so, completely tying up the south quays, Westmoreland Street and all approaches for miles.

devnull · 09-02-2018 3:05pm

Hurrache wrote: »

Simple and obvious solution was not to have the Luas longer than the bridge. No matter what system yo design, be it transport or IT, you factor such things in and create solutions so as not to mess everything else up around it.

Simple and obvious solution is to enforce the rules of the road to the road users and have a proper transport/traffic police to deal with these kind of situations so that the private cars and the taxis do not clog up our city centre who are allowed to do anything they want because the Gardai either can't be bothered or don't have the resources given to them to do anything about it.

But this is Ireland and actually taking the required action is far too much trouble so instead we'll just come up with the easiest 'that'll do' measure rather than the ones that might require a bit of effort but will have a better outcome even if it might involve some tough decisions and continue treating the patient for their symptoms rather than actually dealing with the root cause.

Traffic offending has been a problem for many years now, it's not something that has been caused by the LUAS, sure, having the LUAS there shows it up more since now it has a far bigger impact, but I was using the bus for years to get to and from work, and the idiots driving between lanes, blocking up yellow boxes and clogging up bus lanes and crossing over lanes at the last minute normally causing crashes and illegally parked taxis and cars breaking red lights is nothing new.

We can either blame it on the LUAS or we can deal with the underlying problem that DCC has ignored for the best part of a decade because of the car park, hotel and taxi lobby who they seem to care far more about than the likes of you or me.

Hurrache · 09-02-2018 3:16pm

devnull wrote: »

Simple and obvious solution is to enforce the rules of the road to the road users and have a proper transport/traffic police to deal with these kind of situations so that the private cars and the taxis do not clog up our city centre who are allowed to do anything they want because the Gardai either can't be bothered or don't have the resources given to them to do anything about it.

But this is Ireland

It's not that this is Ireland, it's that this is reality. These things happen despite the best will in the world, the world over. Nobody claimed that the bad behaviour has been caused by the Luas.

It's simply bad planning. Having the Luas fit the length of the bridge I don't think is a "that'll do measure", it's common sense.

However we do agree with what you've said re the taxi, carpark and hotel lobby having undue influence on city centre planning. Can't remember who it was, one of the DCC councillors who was on the relevant planning committee, was on Pat Kenny Wednesday morning and he was insisting that the issues people see every day don't exist. When you have someone with an attitude like that on the transport committee the city is never going to progress.

Pete_Cavan · 09-02-2018 3:22pm

Hurrache wrote: »

It's not that this is Ireland, it's that this is reality. These things happen despite the best will in the world, the world over.

It's simply bad planning. Having the Luas fit the length of the bridge I don't think is a "that'll do measure", it's common sense.

Why is it that a car blocking a Luas is simply something that happens while a Luas blocking a car it is bad planning?

If the traffic coming from Bachelors Walk was limited to just public traffic, as the NTA planned, than the chances of "one of these things" happening is greatly reduced. Perhaps the solution is to actually implement the plan?

devnull · 09-02-2018 3:40pm

Hurrache wrote: »

It's not that this is Ireland, it's that this is reality. These things happen despite the best will in the world, the world over. Nobody claimed that the bad behaviour has been caused by the Luas.

It's simply bad planning. Having the Luas fit the length of the bridge I don't think is a "that'll do measure", it's common sense.

It's common sense to move all of the private traffic out of the area and put the public transport users first, but it isn't happening because of the fact there are too many vested interests that DCC do not want to annoy and no doubt their friends in ABP will also not help the public out with this so I have little faith in the public transport users being put first anytime soon.

With all due respect this is about Ireland because of the fact that I see this kind of stuff go on in Ireland far more than I do in other countries and also the fact is in Ireland the powers that be simply lack the will on enforcing the rules of the road, either because they don't have the resources or they cannot be bothered to do so because it's far too much trouble and effort.

The amount of rule breaking is always directly linked to the chance of getting away with it and the potential punishment that one could face. In Ireland you are almost certain to get away with it and the potential punishment is nothing because all a Garda will do, in the 1% of cases they do something about it, is go over to a motorist and tell him not to do it again and the same car will be back doing it the next day because he cannot get away with it.

I once told a Garda who sat and watched traffic offences bring the quays to it's knees a few years ago and having a good laugh about it on the streets that instead of laughing he should go out there and punish those who were breaking the rules of the road. His argument was he was using his discretion as is his right as a Gardai.

We need less discretion, more zero tolerance on those who break the rules by giving out penalty points and fines and end the culture of either ignoring it and tapping someone on the shoulder and telling them not to do it again. Once they realise that they can no longer get away with it and it might lead to a driving ban if they don't stop rather than a telling off, you'll soon see a change in behaviour.

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Why is it that a car blocking a Luas is simply something that happens while a Luas blocking a car it is bad planning?

If the traffic coming from Bachelors Walk was limited to just public traffic, as the NTA planned, than the chances of "one of these things" happening is greatly reduced. Perhaps the solution is to actually implement the plan?

If you have faith in ABP allowing these things to go-ahead, then you have a lot more faith in me. Personally I'm rather cynical seeing some of the ABP decisions over the years and with the car, taxi and hotel lobby weighing in, I can't imagine for one moment ABP are going to face them down in a way that DCC refuse to.

Hurrache · 09-02-2018 3:42pm

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Why is it that a car blocking a Luas is simply something that happens while a Luas blocking a car it is bad planning?

If the traffic coming from Bachelors Walk was limited to just public traffic, as the NTA planned, than the chances of "one of these things" happening is greatly reduced. Perhaps the solution is to actually implement the plan?

I didn't say a Luas blocking a car is bad planning, I said not taking into account that if the Luas does get blocked or held up, as it inevitably will, it's bad planning not to factor in that if the Luas fit the bridge then there'll be no knock on effect. I'm sure the planners did actually look at this, but were naive in not believing it will be an issue.

Podge_irl · 09-02-2018 3:56pm

I fundamentally do not agree that a core public transport infrastructure should be compromised because of expected law breaking by private citizens. If cars are punished, and punished heavily, for causing such obstruction it will cease very quickly. The reporting of the incident was appallingly bad and should have had much more focus on the individual who caused all the mess.

While the bridge is the most obvious and most harmful location, it is not exactly the only one were a law-breaking car can cause the LUAS to block other traffic either.

Phil.x · 09-02-2018 8:36pm

dashcamdanny wrote: »

No. The bus can not exit from Hawkins street area onto collage green unless the last set of lights are green and the yellow box has 30 feet clear ahead of it. The tram and bus share the same lane. This bus driver would not move unless he had the space to clear the box. In trying to be lawful, he caused a major blockage.

The fact is. This area is so badly designed, busses must break the law and block boxes or they will never move forward in the area. The roads law states you must not enter the yellow box junction unless you can clear it without stopping. This is not possible. Either coming from Hawkins street or Pierce street. You must push out through cycles and taxis or sit for literally hours.

They can change the sequence and small things like that, but it all comes down to volume IMO. Too many busses ..

But busses carry more people.

bebeman · 10-02-2018 12:49am

It would all be fixed tomorrow and traffic would move butter smooth if the lazy incompetent Garda did the job they are paid to do, enforce the rules of the road.
End of discussion.

Stephen15 · 10-02-2018 12:53am

bebeman wrote: »

It would all be fixed tomorrow and traffic would move butter smooth if the lazy incompetent Garda did the job they are paid to do, enforce the rules of the road.
End of discussion.

I wouldn't disagree with you there I have to say

MJohnston · 10-02-2018 1:04am

I'd imagine the trouble is the Guards are being told from on high that they should better spend their budgets tackling hypothetical terrorism, and more urgently drug gangland feuds, than traffic enforcement.

Which makes me seriously wonder why they aren't in the business of supporting automated enforcement. Surely a network of red light cameras, yellow box cameras, restricted turn cameras, bus lane cameras, speed cameras, etc. etc. would help them generate enough budget to actually overcome the expenditure.

fritzelly · 10-02-2018 1:18am

One guard at each junction would probably make their wages back and more each day

bebeman · 10-02-2018 1:22am

MJohnston wrote: »

I'd imagine the trouble is the Guards are being told from on high that they should better spend their budgets tackling hypothetical terrorism, and more urgently drug gangland feuds, than traffic enforcement.
.

They would make the cost of enforcement back 10 fold

fritzelly · 10-02-2018 1:33am

bebeman wrote: »

They would make the cost of enforcement back 10 fold

Stop repeating what I just said,

howiya · 10-02-2018 2:44am

fritzelly wrote: »

One guard at each junction would probably make their wages back and more each day

It really depends where they are at the junction and obviously longer term you're hoping there'll be a change in driver behaviour so that they don't pay for themselves.

In the old days of operation freeflow they were often standing at the junction preventing violations so there wasn't money made there but it kept yellow boxes clear and the traffic moving. On the other hand you have them the other side of College Green fining motorists and they do make money for the State but it doesn't help the flow of traffic in that instance.

Either way is unlikely to happen in any significant fashion in the near future so we should be looking at fixed cameras with ANPR and fines sent out in the post.

dvdman1 · 14-02-2018 12:21pm

cgcsb wrote: »

An elevated luas would never in a million years get planning approval, primarily because of the urban environment it'd destroy beneath it, and really there is no need, it's must cheaper and hassle free to dish out some car bans, but for some reason we're not capable of that.

Yes it definitely impacts but "destroys" is a bit much, have you seen other cities with light rail elevated, its not bad especially with good architecture, dart elevation we got used to why not luas? Only the congested bits in the centre need elevation it wouldn't be as expensive compared to the yrs of congestion were faced with impacting how much time n money?

ArmaniJeanss · 14-02-2018 1:49pm

dvdman1 wrote: »

Yes it definitely impacts but "destroys" is a bit much, have you seen other cities with light rail elevated, its not bad especially with good architecture, dart elevation we got used to why not luas? Only the congested bits in the centre need elevation it wouldn't be as expensive compared to the yrs of congestion were faced with impacting how much time n money?

Presumably we'd have to elevate to double decker bus size though? Which other cities didn't have to do.

Sierra Oscar · 15-02-2018 11:39am

Travel times on the buses passing through D'Olier Street / College Green were particularly bad this morning.

thomasj · 15-02-2018 11:47am

Sierra Oscar wrote:

Travel times on the buses passing through D'Olier Street / College Green were particularly bad this morning.

Yeah given that it's midterm week , I'm surprised how bad the city has been.

Out in the suburbs , certainly blanch it's been grand all week.

For the old cabra road to Hanlon's and the quays its been a nightmare most of the week but it was grand this morning.

40 minutes on the 39a this morning from hartstown to Ormond quay, yesterday it was an hour 5 minutes.

hmmm · 15-02-2018 1:43pm

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Travel times on the buses passing through D'Olier Street / College Green were particularly bad this morning.

From casual observation, it seems to me that buses are also being much less aggressive at packing themselves onto O'Connell bridge in case they get caught in the yellow box & block the LUAS tracks. This is causing a build-up of traffic down the quays, even while O'Connell Bridge and D'Olier street are relatively free of buses.

Sierra Oscar · 20-02-2018 6:01pm

More changes to Dublin Bus routes are being put in place from Monday week.

https://twitter.com/gavreilly/status/965994265758269440

thomasj · 20-02-2018 6:41pm

changes are

Route 4 northbound to reroute via Tara Street Burgh Quay (AM Peak only)

Route 7, 7b, 7d northbound to reroute via Tara Street Burgh Quay (AM Peak only)

Route 145 northbound to reroute via Tara St to Heuston

Route 84X northbound to reroute via Tara Street towards Eden Quay

Route 116 northbound to reroute via Tara Street Burgh Quay

Route 118 northbound to reroute via Tara Street towards Eden Quay

Route 120 southbound to reroute Hawkins Street Townsend Street Merrion Square (Peak only)

Route 44 southbound to reroute via Abbey Street Hawkins Street

Route 51D southbound to reroute Hawkins Street Townsend Street Merrion Square

Route 142 southbound to reroute Hawkins Street Townsend Street Merrion Square

http://www.98fm.com/Chronic-City-Centre-Congestion:-More-Dublin-Bus-Routes-Diverted

StreetLight · 20-02-2018 6:46pm

This is just ridiculous now. More tinkering that will solve nothing.

hmmm · 20-02-2018 6:51pm

Perhaps bus passengers could get off and walk through College Green?

Or maybe we could try closing off College Green entirely to anything that's not a LUAS?

Would it help if bus passengers were transported to holding pens on the outside of the city, and only released once rush hour was over for the LUAS?

cherryghost · 20-02-2018 6:52pm

AM peak only? Are they stupid? This will not only SOLVE the problem but will confuse the heck out of folk!

Stephen15 · 20-02-2018 6:52pm

I think it's logical to run buses down Tara Street due to Luas CC but the street should be made bus only.

Tickityboo · 20-02-2018 7:16pm

Stephen15 wrote: »

I think it's logical to run buses down Tara Street due to Luas CC but the street should be made bus only.

Also they should just let the 7s carry on up Gardiner street and onto Mountjoy Square.

MJohnston · 20-02-2018 7:19pm

Stephen15 wrote: »

I think it's logical to run buses down Tara Street due to Luas CC but the street should be made bus only.

I'd like to see DCC implement at least part of their original Quays traffic plan - ban cars from Burgh Quay. This would let you turn the left two lanes on Tara Street into bus lanes, and no left turn for anyone else.

thomasj · 20-02-2018 7:19pm

The 142 routing doesnt look right?................

Tickityboo · 20-02-2018 7:31pm

The 116 and 118 routes only have a total of three journeys inbound in the mornings!!!

dublinman1990 · 20-02-2018 10:27pm

The 44 going through Abbey Street & Hawkins Street for it's route to Enniskerry is another one that caught my eye in that list.

Are their not plenty of Dublin Bus routes going through Abbey Street already while sharing road space with other bus routes & the red luas line?

fritzelly · 20-02-2018 10:33pm

Lots of buses that don't even need to come into the city if they could drop people at a Luas stop with a quick jaunt into the centre...but on a single fare. You could have Luas after Luas running

One thing about Dublin bus is they tend to move from far outside of the city, thru the city and on to somewhere else far out of the city. I haven't really noticed that in other cities - they tend to have return routes that terminate in the city and then go back the way they came

Dunno...just a thought...

punisher5112 · 20-02-2018 10:42pm

fritzelly wrote: »

Lots of buses that don't even need to come into the city if they could drop people at a Luas stop with a quick jaunt into the centre...but on a single fare. You could have Luas after Luas running

One thing about Dublin bus is they tend to move from far outside of the city, thru the city and on to somewhere else far out of the city. I haven't really noticed that in other cities - they tend to have return routes that terminate in the city and then go back the way they came

Dunno...just a thought...

It will be all changing with bus connects.

fritzelly · 20-02-2018 10:46pm

punisher5112 wrote: »

It will be all changing with bus connects.

Can't manage to get a Luas thru the city without disrupting everyone else - excuse my scepticism

stop · 20-02-2018 11:40pm

dublinman1990 wrote: »

The 44 going through Abbey Street & Hawkins Street for it's route to Enniskerry is another one that caught my eye in that list.

Are their not plenty of Dublin Bus routes going through Abbey Street already while sharing road space with other bus routes & the red luas line?

44 on Hawkins, just like old times.

Yellow box on Burgh Quay will need actual policing if more buses are to be put through it.

bebeman · 21-02-2018 1:36am

Pearse st will be backed up to ringend with these changes

devnull · 21-02-2018 7:17pm

Official Announcement
http://dublinbus.ie/News-Centre/General-News/Central-Control-2/

On Monday 29 January, Dublin Bus in conjunction with the National Transport Authority (NTA) and Dublin City Council (DCC) announced a number of route changes in the College Green area. These changes reduced the number of buses in this area but following a period of monitoring and in order to alleviate further delays to Dublin Bus customers additional changes will be implemented.

From Monday 5 March, changes will be made to 10 Dublin Bus routes that currently operate through the College Green/College Street area. These include:

Route 4 northbound to reroute via Tara Street Burgh Quay (AM Peak only).

Route 7 northbound to reroute via Tara Street Burgh Quay (AM Peak only)

Route 145 northbound to reroute via Tara St to Heuston Station.

Route 84X northbound to reroute via Tara Street towards Eden Quay.

Route 116 northbound to reroute via Tara Street Burgh Quay.

Route 118 northbound to reroute via Tara Street towards Eden Quay.

Route 120 southbound to reroute Hawkins Street, Townsend Street, Merrion Square.

Route 44 southbound to reroute via Abbey Street, Hawkins Street.

Route 51D southbound to reroute Hawkins Street, Townsend Street, Merrion Square.

Route 142 southbound to reroute Hawkins Street, Townsend Street, Merrion Square.

Dublin Bus will continue to work with Dublin City Council and the National Transport Authority on solutions to alleviate delays being experienced by our customers. Any further solutions proposed must involve all transport modes, which operate in the city centre and must have a balanced approach.

AlekSmart · 21-02-2018 7:40pm

devnull wrote: »

Official Announcement
http://dublinbus.ie/News-Centre/General-News/Central-Control-2/

Patience appears to be wearing a bit thin ?

Dublin Bus will continue to work with Dublin City Council and the National Transport Authority on solutions to alleviate delays being experienced by our customers. Any further solutions proposed must involve all transport modes, which operate in the city centre and must have a balanced approach.

The possibility of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory continues to loom large here,as the inability of the City's Administrators to formulate workable policy is laid bare...again.

The results of the current shennanigans may well determine a lot of future policies regarding co-operation ...or lack of it.

Cookie_Monster · 21-02-2018 9:44pm

Dublin Bus will continue to work with Dublin City Council and the National Transport Authority on solutions to alleviate delays being experienced by our customers. Any further solutions proposed must involve all transport modes, which operate in the city centre and must have a balanced approach.

I get the sense that's aimed at Luas though, rather than private vehicles. Hopefully I'm wrong.

alentejo · 21-02-2018 10:44pm

I suspect the chances of the 15's been routed via Dawson st, College green is now a pipe dream...

thomasj · 22-02-2018 12:07am

alentejo wrote:

I suspect the chances of the 15's been routed via Dawson st, College green is now a pipe dream...

Depends on what happens with college green. Businesses are taking DCC to court over the plans.

fritzelly · 22-02-2018 4:18pm

College Green was like a bus car park this morning. Did see a gard looking bored outta his mind watching traffic bottom of o'connell st for a change!

dfx- · 22-02-2018 4:52pm

cherryghost wrote: »

AM peak only? Are they stupid? This will not only SOLVE the problem but will confuse the heck out of folk!

The AM peak is really all that they ever seem to consider.

Maybe the problems aren't happening at all off-peak.

cherryghost · 22-02-2018 4:55pm

dfx- wrote: »

The AM peak is really all that they ever seem to consider.

Maybe the problems aren't happening at all off-peak.

My comment is misleading as there's no stops normally on the route going up that street so no stops are affected. Just a new landscape for passengers to gawk at and a new street to sit frustrated in.

Old meme is old but relevant.

fritzelly · 23-02-2018 6:49pm

What's going on in the city, traffic barely moving

DanDublin1982 · 23-02-2018 6:50pm

I had reason to drive down Townsend st turning onto Tara St then Burgh Quay today at about 2pm. Took 25 minutes or so so can only imagine what that is like at 4.30/5 on an average weekday with all the extra bus traffic.

Counted over 20 cars in the non turning lane taking the turn onto Burgh Quay.

Dublin Bus Changes to Improve City Center Journeys

Comments