Average V Median wage Ireland?

Geuze · 16-02-2021 10:58pm

I am playing around with the Eurostat Data Explorer, and I see this:

EARN_SES_MONTHLY

Monthly earnings from the SES 2018

Sectors are [B-S_X_O] Industry, construction and services (except public administration, defense, compulsory social security)

All workers = 3,021 = 36,252 pa

FT workers = 3,249 = 38,988

I mentioned this yesterday, something is odd here, median earnings seem to be falling......between 2014 and 2018???..................??????

beggars_bush · 16-02-2021 11:57pm

Are those on the dole included in median earnings?

Laura2021 · 17-02-2021 1:20am

Eric Cartman wrote: »

50k isn't fantastic money and most professionals living in Cork City or Leinster would either be on that or expect to exceed that in their lifetimes ,

There are alot of people no where near 50k, I would say it's a good salary depending on the job of course long hours pressure environment taking work home with you then no it's not. when you break it down after tax its 3,066 a month.
€766.5

Compared to someone on 70k
€981 a week

Geuze · 17-02-2021 1:22am

beggars_bush wrote: »

Are those on the dole included in median earnings?

No.

Earnings is from working.

Incomes are not the same as earnings, as I have said over and over.

Income data is in the SILC.

Peregrinus · 17-02-2021 3:48am

It seems to me that the dataset that would be most useful in identifying median earnings is tax returns (from individuals) and PAYE returns (from employers). That gives you extremely detailed information for virtually every adult in the country, you can separate earned income from unearned income, etc. But, obviously, confidentiality and rules about what is or is not proper use of tax information is a big deal, so I don't know to what extent that dataset is actually used for purposes like this. Plus, it wouldn't, I think, distinguish full-time workers from part-time workers.

Benedict · 17-02-2021 9:58am

Peregrinus wrote: »

It seems to me that the dataset that would be most useful in identifying median earnings is tax returns (from individuals) and PAYE returns (from employers). That gives you extremely detailed information for virtually every adult in the country, you can separate earned income from unearned income, etc. But, obviously, confidentiality and rules about what is or is not proper use of tax information is a big deal, so I don't know to what extent that dataset is actually used for purposes like this. Plus, it wouldn't, I think, distinguish full-time workers from part-time workers.

When Leo (or someone in a similar position) stands up and announces that the "average wage for an FT worker is almost 49k", I feel sure that the vast majority think this means MOST FT workers (ftw) are earning that amount at least.

And that simply is not true!

We discover what MOST ftw are getting by referring to the median - and if this thread has shown anything it has shown that the median figure for ftw is not available - even from CSO.

But it sure as hell isn't 49k pa!

mariaalice · 17-02-2021 10:00am

Ireland is a wealthy country of that there is no doubt, its more visceral than that though individual and couple don't feel wealthy. The statistics may say as a couple with an income from employment of over 100k between them are in the top 10% of PAYE works but as I said they do not feel well off.

17-02-2021 10:10am

Benedict wrote: »

When Leo (or someone in a similar position) stands up and announces that the "average wage for an FT worker is almost 49k", I feel sure that the vast majority think this means MOST FT workers (ftw) are earning that amount at least.

...............

Only a thick would think that the least folk earn is the average.

Eric Cartman · 17-02-2021 10:10am

Laura2021 wrote: »

There are alot of people no where near 50k, I would say it's a good salary depending on the job of course long hours pressure environment taking work home with you then no it's not. when you break it down after tax its 3,066 a month.
€766.5

Compared to someone on 70k
€981 a week

There are a lot on under 50k, it doesn't mean 50k is high and should incur the higher bracket tax though. Even by your own figures somebody on 70k vs 50 is only 200 a week better off , somebody on 70k a year should be coming home with 1100 + a week

Wanderer78 · 17-02-2021 10:20am

mariaalice wrote: »

Ireland is a wealthy country of that there is no doubt, its more visceral than that though individual and couple don't feel wealthy. The statistics may say as a couple with an income from employment of over 100k between them are in the top 10% of PAYE works but as I said they do not feel well off.

ireland certainly has become wealthier over the last few decades, but similar to other developed countries, this wealth is becoming more concentrated, thats not good for all of us, including these wealthier individuals. we keep repeating the same mistakes, particularly in relation to property and land, we continue to encourage and facilitate policies to maintain ever growing property and land prices, we cant keep doing this!

stefanovich · 17-02-2021 10:36am

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

Out of interest would you have any factual evidence to back this assertion? Ireland has one of the most progressive taxation systems in world it seems.

I posted a video earlier which I doubt anyone watched. It's Milton Friedman talking about "progressive" taxation.

Like everything it seems, it's a bit of a scam where the middle pay for everything.

You need to look at the effective tax people pay. The middle class paye earner has no way of avoiding tax. The very wealthy take advantage of tax loop holes - get their income from investments / property etc.

He asks the question - if you abolish all tax loopholes and have a flat tax across the board - what rate would you need to keep the tax take at the same level as this so called progressive system.

Turns out - at the time in the US at least - that that number was 17% if I remember correctly.

It would be very interesting to do the same calculation for Ireland.

At the moment low income earners pay little tax if any.
The middle pay a lot.
The very rich pay little.

It is sold as some kind of fair taxation when in reality it is pitting the low against the middle for the benefit of the very rich.

Self employed are a strange category - I know of many who massively underreport their income.

Peregrinus · 17-02-2021 10:37am

Benedict wrote: »

When Leo (or someone in a similar position) stands up and announces that the "average wage for an FT worker is almost 49k", I feel sure that the vast majority think this means MOST FT workers (ftw) are earning that amount at least.

I doubt that. At worst, most people might think that half of FT workers earn more than that amount, and half earn less. That's what most people think "average" usually means. In fact, that's the figure you think Varadkar should have given, isn't it?

Cyrus · 17-02-2021 10:39am

stefanovich wrote: »

I posted a video earlier which I doubt anyone watched. It's Milton Friedman talking about "progressive" taxation.

Like everything it seems, it's a bit of a scam where the middle pay for everything.

You need to look at the effective tax people pay. The middle class paye earner has no way of avoiding tax. The very wealthy take advantage of tax loop holes - get their income from investments / property etc.

He asks the question - if you abolish all tax loopholes and have a flat tax across the board - what rate would you need to keep the tax take at the same level as this so called progressive system.

Turns out - at the time in the US at least - that that number was 17% if I remember correctly.

It would be very interesting to do the same calculation for Ireland.

At the moment low income earners pay little tax if any.
The middle pay a lot.
The very rich pay little.

It is sold as some kind of fair taxation when in reality it is pitting the low against the middle for the benefit of the very rich.

Self employed are a strange category - I know of many who massively underreport their income.

i remember re nua ran on an economic platform advocating a flat tax, they got no traction.

in reality it makes a lot of sense and removes the disincentive for progression that exists at the crossover between between the low and high rate.

stefanovich · 17-02-2021 10:41am

stefanovich wrote: »

I posted a video earlier which I doubt anyone watched. It's Milton Friedman talking about "progressive" taxation.

Like everything it seems, it's a bit of a scam where the middle pay for everything.

You need to look at the effective tax people pay. The middle class paye earner has no way of avoiding tax. The very wealthy take advantage of tax loop holes - get their income from investments / property etc.

He asks the question - if you abolish all tax loopholes and have a flat tax across the board - what rate would you need to keep the tax take at the same level as this so called progressive system.

Turns out - at the time in the US at least - that that number was 17% if I remember correctly.

It would be very interesting to do the same calculation for Ireland.

At the moment low income earners pay little tax if any.
The middle pay a lot.
The very rich pay little.

It is sold as some kind of fair taxation when in reality it is pitting the low against the middle for the benefit of the very rich.

Self employed are a strange category - I know of many who massively underreport their income.

Wealth transfer under a progressive system.

LOW <---- MIDDLE

> HIGH

Oh - and it also operates as a way of increasing your tax burden over time by default. Your wages increase along with inflation but the tax bands don't change.
Your buying power by default is dropping.

stefanovich · 17-02-2021 10:43am

Cyrus wrote: »

i remember re nua ran on an economic platform advocating a flat tax, they got no traction.

in reality it makes a lot of sense and removes the disincentive for progression that exists at the crossover between between the low and high rate.

Also the lack of complexity makes everyone's like easier. Might put accountants and revenue workers out of a job. Maybe they could do something useful instead.

Wanderer78 · 17-02-2021 10:48am

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

Out of interest would you have any factual evidence to back this assertion? Ireland has one of the most progressive taxation systems in world it seems.

havent properly used this site yet, but...

https://wid.world/country/ireland/

Cyrus wrote: »

i remember re nua ran on an economic platform advocating a flat tax, they got no traction.

in reality it makes a lot of sense and removes the disincentive for progression that exists at the crossover between between the low and high rate.

flat taxes have been tried in other countries, they largely failed in trying to deal with rising inequality, those that could afford to avoid it, did, economist Michael Hudson has done work on this

stefanovich · 17-02-2021 10:50am

Wanderer78 wrote: »

havent properly used this site yet, but...

https://wid.world/country/ireland/

flat taxes have been tried in other countries, they largely failed in trying to deal with rising inequality, those that could afford to avoid it, did, economist Michael Hudson has done work on this

Ah - look at Russia. They INCREASED their tax take with flat taxation. Removes the incentive to move money out of the country and use loopholes.

Wanderer78 · 17-02-2021 10:51am

stefanovich wrote: »

Ah - look at Russia. They INCREASED their tax take with flat taxation. Removes the incentive to move money out of the country and use loopholes.

...and im sure its worked wonders with reducing inequality within its borders....

stefanovich · 17-02-2021 10:54am

Wanderer78 wrote: »

...and im sure its worked wonders with reducing inequality within its borders....

How much money you take in and what you spend it on are different things right?

If you increase your tax take and you have a good government then won't everyone benefit if it is used equitably?

Wanderer78 · 17-02-2021 10:57am

stefanovich wrote: »

How much money you take in and what you spend it on are different things right?

If you increase your tax take and you have a good government then won't everyone benefit if it is used equitably?

its everything, increasing the size of the pie doesnt necessarily mean everyone's bit gets bigger, if you dont try share out those individual bits more, everyones securities become undermined, including the wealthy, the uk and the us are perfect examples of this

stefanovich · 17-02-2021 10:59am

Read this for more on Russia's taxation miracle. We'd all be much better off if we took this approach.

https://www.heritage.org/europe/commentary/russias-flat-tax-miracle

stefanovich · 17-02-2021 11:00am

Wanderer78 wrote: »

its everything, increasing the size of the pie doesnt necessarily mean everyone's bit gets bigger, if you dont try share out those individual bits more, everyones securities become undermined, including the wealthy, the uk and the us are perfect examples of this

https://wid.world/country/russian-federation/

Look at income inequality since 2001 - stopped going up. Everyone gets more take home pay too. What you are saying is wrong.

Wanderer78 · 17-02-2021 11:00am

stefanovich wrote: »

Read this for more on Russia's taxation miracle. We'd all be much better off if we took this approach.

https://www.heritage.org/europe/commentary/russias-flat-tax-miracle

so russias society and economy is far more stable and people are happier because of this?

Wanderer78 · 17-02-2021 11:01am

stefanovich wrote: »

https://wid.world/country/russian-federation/

Look at income inequality since 2001 - stopped going up. Everyone gets more take home pay too. What you are saying is wrong.

what bits am in saying are wrong?

stefanovich · 17-02-2021 11:01am

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

Don’t several EU countries have flat taxes and they are not basket cases?

The middle in Ireland gets taxed a lot because they are a captive audience, rich presumably can move about.

As for Renua didn’t they have funny points of view on abortion and EU? Not that policies parties claim at elections matter, it’s easy to promise the moon.

Well being a member of the EU is not a positive thing at all. A discussion for another day perhaps.

Wanderer78 · 17-02-2021 11:02am

stefanovich wrote: »

Well being a member of the EU is not a positive thing at all. A discussion for another day perhaps.

how so?

stefanovich · 17-02-2021 11:02am

Wanderer78 wrote: »

what bits am in saying are wrong?

Why do you need to give your money to the government for them to share it out and waste it in the process. Allowing everyone to keep more of their wages... What's not to like? And you tax the very rich even more.

stefanovich · 17-02-2021 11:02am

Wanderer78 wrote: »

how so?

I'd prefer not to derail the conversation.

Peregrinus · 17-02-2021 11:04am

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

Don’t several EU countries have flat taxes and they are not basket cases?

The middle in Ireland gets taxed a lot because they are a captive audience, rich presumably can move about.

The rich could also move about to avoid a flat tax. Just sayin'.

17-02-2021 11:05am

stefanovich wrote: »

Why do you need to give your money to the government for them to share it out and waste it in the process. Allowing everyone to keep more of their wages... What's not to like? ...........

It wouldn't suit the folk with the hand out who pay fnck all tax anyway you see.

Wanderer78 · 17-02-2021 11:05am

stefanovich wrote: »

Why do you need to give your money to the government for them to share it out and waste it in the process. Allowing everyone to keep more of their wages... What's not to like? And you tax the very rich even more.

do you really think other methods such as the so called 'free market' has the abilities and capabilities, or even interest in sharing wealth? theres no question theres wastage and inefficiencies via our current approach's but.....

stefanovich · 17-02-2021 11:05am

Peregrinus wrote: »

The rich could also move about to avoid a flat tax. Just sayin'.

They'd move here!

17-02-2021 11:06am

Eric Cartman wrote: »

This I think needs to be stated a lot more, there has been a huge race to the bottom in a lot of jobs especially as we have a lot of very educated friends coming in from across the EU.

project manager used to be a pretty much solid 60-75k job, now starting in the 40-45 bracket.
Java developers used to start on 50, now its 30k
Product manager for a multinational - used to be 90-100 handy enough, now you'd earn 50-70

We have a growing gap now between people who entered the workforce 10-15 years ago and those entering it today. If you've done a decade in your sector what you're on now, the guy behind you in 10 year time won't be on anywhere near that.

Is there any actual data to support this? The average wage has been rising year on year I'm pretty sure so that doesn't really lend itself to these 40-60% wage drops.

stefanovich · 17-02-2021 11:06am

Augeo wrote: »

It wouldn't suit the folk with the hand out who pay fnck all tax anyway you see.

That's where the negative income tax comes in. They'd be better off too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtpgkX588nM

Cyrus · 17-02-2021 11:06am

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

As for Renua didn’t they have funny points of view on abortion and EU?

well they were anti abortion, not sure thats a funny point of view, but it probably didnt do them any favours.

Wanderer78 · 17-02-2021 11:07am

Augeo wrote: »

It wouldn't suit the folk with the hand out who pay fnck all tax anyway you see.

its important to keep our prejudices in check!

Peregrinus · 17-02-2021 11:08am

stefanovich wrote: »

They'd move here!

No. One of the touted attractions of a flat tax system is that the rich pay more (because the slew of deductions and tax breaks and etc that they currently availa of is eliminated) — this is how the reduced tax burden for the middle is largely funded. But if that is an attraction of a flat tax system, then it's also an incentive for the mobile rich to move to a jurisdiction that doesn't have a flat tax system.

17-02-2021 11:08am

Cyrus wrote: »

well they were anti abortion, not sure thats a funny point of view.......

Indeed, I've yet to meet someone who reckons they should have been aborted.

Benedict · 17-02-2021 11:08am

Peregrinus wrote: »

I doubt that. At worst, most people might think that half of FT workers earn more than that amount, and half earn less. That's what most people think "average" usually means. In fact, that's the figure you think Varadkar should have given, isn't it?

Yes, my mistake, I meant most people (I reckon) listening to Leo's statement think 49k is the median - and there seems to be no available evidence to support that.

Incidentally, surely in order to establish the average, enough data must be available to also establish the median!

It seems to me that the public is being sold the message that 49k is the median which gives the impression that the country is doing really well.
And those who don't think impressions matter should remember the days when Bertie was prating on about how brilliantly Ireland was doing when in fact Ireland was drowning but didn't realise it.

The question "what is the ft worker median wage". This question is central to this thread and nobody can answer it.

Cyrus · 17-02-2021 11:15am

Peregrinus wrote: »

No. One of the touted attractions of a flat tax system is that the rich pay more (because the slew of deductions and tax breaks and etc that they currently availa of is eliminated) — this is how the reduced tax burden for the middle is largely funded. But if that is an attraction of a flat tax system, then it's also an incentive for the mobile rich to move to a jurisdiction that doesn't have a flat tax system.

it depends on what you refer to when you mean the rich, the salaried rich would be interested a scheme like this, the asset owning rich wouldnt.

ELM327 · 17-02-2021 11:17am

Augeo wrote: »

Indeed, I've yet to meet someone who reckons they should have been aborted.

I have met folks including myself that believe the prospective mother should have had the right to choose, myself included though.

Anyway let's not derail what is a good thread, there's plenty of pro/anti choice threads I'm sure.

I was actually a registered member of renua due to their flat tax and crime policies but when it was clear they wanted a party line as opposed to a "conscience vote" like FF, I left. It's a pity. We need a strong center right party in Ireland to sort out a lot of the overspending in DSP and HSE and other government departments.

17-02-2021 11:18am

Wanderer78 wrote: »

its important to keep our prejudices in check!

Just calling it as is it.
I don't pander to the lazy left

Wanderer78 · 17-02-2021 11:19am

Augeo wrote: »

Just calling it as is it.
I don't pander to the lazy left

...and so am i.....

lazy left, please explain?

ELM327 · 17-02-2021 11:19am

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

Depends if US style taxation of citizens regardless of their location in world is brought in. Taxation is one subject that really gets people interested in politics

US citizens abroad pay taxes and have the right to a postal ballot. Taxation with representation. That works for them but I prefer our setup.

Cyrus wrote: »

it depends on what you refer to when you mean the rich, the salaried rich would be interested a scheme like this, the asset owning rich wouldnt.

The salaried middle class like myself would also be interested. You don't have to be "rich" (you'll never really be rich if you are salaried anyway) to benefit, since the highest tax rate kicks in at a measly 35k.

17-02-2021 11:19am

Wanderer78 wrote: »

havent properly used this site yet, but...

https://wid.world/country/ireland/

According to the ERSI income inequality in Ireland is falling.

ELM327 · 17-02-2021 11:20am

Augeo wrote: »

Just calling it as is it.
I don't pander to the lazy left

Wanderer78 wrote: »

...and so am i.....

lazy left, please explain?

Gents! There's no need for that. The "lazy left" is akin to a Trump-ism and I get malayed for using those.

Wanderer78 · 17-02-2021 11:21am

Tommy Muscular Tether wrote: »

According to the ERSI income inequality in Ireland is falling.

its clearly not, and this is clearly evident with our highly dysfunctional property markets, and low wage inflation

17-02-2021 11:21am

Wanderer78 wrote: »

...and so am i.....

lazy left, please explain?

If the tax system was rejigged so those earning their few quid kept more of it those that have the hand out would want an ole bonus or an extra few quid also.

17-02-2021 11:22am

Wanderer78 wrote: »

its clearly not, and this is clearly evident with our highly dysfunctional property markets, and low wage inflation

Ah right so the ERSI are wrong and you're right. Ok.

Wanderer78 · 17-02-2021 11:24am

Tommy Muscular Tether wrote: »

Ah right so the ERSI are wrong and you're right. Ok.

i ll stick with respected economic commentators opinions, and the facts that are used, and the facts that i have found myself

Average V Median wage Ireland?

Comments