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Average V Median wage Ireland?

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  • #2


    There has been much controversy lately about mortgage lenders who don't want to lend to individuals or couples jointly earning less than 100k pa. We've seen politicians showing horror at this and suggesting that this figure will mean that vast numbers of even two-earner households will not be eligible for a mortgage. Yet if we are to believe the spin, the "average" working couple would be within a couple of quid of this.

    The powers-that-be prefer "average" to "median" because it gives the impression that we're all doing really well. But even the "median" reports would need to be read with care. Geuze has made a helpful contribution to this thread - but even in his case I note that the "median" figures (nothing like 49/50k) are based on looking at 7,700 examples from several million workers! (A drop in the ocean.)

    Everyone spots the new top-of-the-range Merc whizzing past - but not the trail of 10 year old Ford Fiestas behind it!

    On "How to be good with money" RTE last week, I head Eoin McGee describe a legal secretary's salary of 40k as "good". According to the spin, it's not "good".


  • #2
    Benedict wrote: »
    To my mind this is nonsense - just look up "Jobs.ie" and you will see that even 40k pa means you have to have lots of experience & qualification.

    It is nonsense because in most professions the job ads are not on "jobs.ie" :rolleyes:

    In engineering for one its all about careers on linkedin. You can also take a peek at linkedin salary for distribution of salaries for any given profession, they have a descent and growing dataset.

    I assume CSO get the data from revenue btw, and possibly average out by two in case of two unit (married couple) single filings.

    If you want a better salary then skill up (plenty of springboard courses, the government to their credit are helping), in my team/company we cant find enough software engineers at moment for example (all levels! from graduate to staff) even after widening the net to remote anywhere in Ireland. With ridiculously good salaries and bonuses (especially if one doesnt live in Dublin)


  • #2


    Brian? wrote: »
    I have no idea where you’re getting your earning figures. They’re completely wrong. Wages have gone up in all of those jobs.

    Project Managers have gone down significantly. Mostly because the day rate you can sell a PM at is now gone way down, unless you are a hugely experienced one.

    Anything Cyber Security related is crazy at the moment


  • #2


    Aidan Regan, a political economist and associate professor in UCD’s School of Politics and International Relations, has pointed out that “If there are 40 people in a bar and a billionaire walks in, everyone, on average becomes a millionaire”.

    CSO figures show that the "average full time worker" earns almost 49k per annum and this figure has been widely used to give the impression that 49k is the norm and we're all in clover.

    If you're struggling and Bill Gates moves onto your road, then all of a sudden if you're going by averages, you're not struggling, you're now rich.

    If you're going by median figures, you're still struggling.

    So which is reality and which is cloud cuckoo land?


  • #2
    Benedict wrote: »
    Aidan Regan, a political economist and associate professor in UCD’s School of Politics and International Relations, has pointed out that “If there are 40 people in a bar and a billionaire walks in, everyone, on average becomes a millionaire”.

    CSO figures show that the "average full time worker" earns almost 49k per annum and this figure has been widely used to give the impression that 49k is the norm and we're all in clover.

    If you're struggling and Bill Gates moves onto your road, then all of a sudden if you're going by averages, you're not struggling, you're now rich.

    If you're going by median figures, you're still struggling.

    So which is reality and which is cloud cuckoo land?

    You think you are smarter than CSO and they are not aware of difference between mean and median?

    They outline their methodology and sample sizes in quite a detail
    https://www.cso.ie/en/methods/earnings/earnings-faqs/


  • #2


    Geuze wrote: »

    Yes. Do you doubt that? if you are earning more than 600 a week, you are in the upper half of the distribution.


  • #2


    You think you are smarter than CSO and they are not aware of difference between mean and median?


    I'm not sure where you saw that I said I was smarter than the CSO - I don't think any such thing. It's the manner in which statistics are used which I find disturbing - especially how the confusion surrounding "median" and "average" is exploited.


    I would like to know how many Irish adults over 18 (apart from full time students) are earning circa E24.50 for every hour they work. I would like to know how many over 18's (apart from full time students) are earning 49k pa.


    That figure would throw a very different light on how ordinary people are living.

    Just remember, if you had a town in Ireland with 100 adults, 90 were unemployed and the other 10 were earning 100k pa. Then the average earning would be 100k pa. The impression would be that this town is really prosperous whereas in fact it is on its knees.


  • #2
    Benedict wrote: »
    I'm not sure where you saw that I said I was smarter than the CSO - I don't think any such thing. It's the manner in which statistics are used which I find disturbing - especially how the confusion surrounding "median" and "average" is exploited.


    I would like to know how many Irish adults over 18 (apart from full time students) are earning circa E24.50 for every hour they work. I would like to know how many over 18's (apart from full time students) are earning 49k pa.


    That figure would throw a very different light on how ordinary people are living.

    Just remember, if you had a town in Ireland with 100 adults, 90 were unemployed and the other 10 were earning 100k pa. Then the average earning would be 100k pa. The impression would be that this town is really prosperous whereas in fact it is on its knees.


    First of all CSO are very clear on what they measure and how they arrive at the figure

    1. re: unemployed:
    Obviously someone unemployed would not appear in "employment" statistics, despite their weekly income from welfare being <insert_current_welfare_weekly_amount>

    2. re: mean vs median

    cso do actually measure these
    As is typical in earnings distributions, a relatively small number of high earners result in a positively skewed earnings distribution of employees in Ireland. In a positively skewed earnings distribution, mean earnings are greater than median earnings as the mean is increased by those higher earners. In such cases median earnings (the middle earner in the economy or sector) may be a more reflective figure of the average earnings of employees in the economy or sector. Please see the graph below which illustrates the earnings distribution of employees in Ireland in 2018. This data is taken from the Earnings Analysis using Administrative Data Sources 2018 publication. This release produces both mean and median earnings statistics.

    3. re: sample sizes and methodology

    here https://www.cso.ie/en/methods/earnings/earningshoursandemploymentcostssurvey/
    and here
    https://www.cso.ie/en/methods/earnings/nationalemploymentsurvey/



    Overall CSO could not be clearer in what exactly they measure and report at regular intervals, of course they are aware of mean and median, you however seem to want both employment and unemployment "earnings" figures which of course could be anything from zero (people do fall thru welfare cracks) to millions for the ultrarich


  • #2
    Don’t forget that ultra rich would not be paying themselves to high a salary, example business owners might pay themselves 36k a year in income, but choose to pay 33% capital gains when they close a business years later. Capital gains wouldn’t appear in weekly earnings figures. Same for people selling houses that might have appreciated in value and so on. Irish tax system actively encourages legal avoidance of high salaries and encourages things like pensions and investment in startups

    Hell I already theoretically “made” more this year from cryptocurrencies than my salary for 2021, but until I actually decide to ever sell (and pay capital gains) it’s literally nothing more than a fantasy figure on a computer screen, same for stocks etc.


  • #2


    Benedict wrote: »

    Just remember, if you had a town in Ireland with 100 adults, 90 were unemployed and the other 10 were earning 100k pa. Then the average earning would be 100k pa. The impression would be that this town is really prosperous whereas in fact it is on its knees.

    Yes, incomes are not the same as earnings.

    The CSO produce data on:

    (1) mean earnings
    (2) median earnings - although I'm still not 100% clear on this

    (3) household incomes, published in the SILC, both mean and median, both gross and disposable


  • #2


    zell12 wrote: »
    CSO - the median of annual earnings in 2018 was €36,095.
    loads more stats on sectoral median incomes there especially Table 8.15 Median annual earnings by county and sex


    00123ee4-614.jpg

    27.1% of households have no earned income

    How many of those households are pensioners and how many are not I wonder.


  • #2


    Benedict wrote: »

    I would like to know how many Irish adults over 18 (apart from full time students) are earning circa E24.50 for every hour they work. I would like to know how many over 18's (apart from full time students) are earning 49k pa.

    That figure would throw a very different light on how ordinary people are living.


    Tricky to get this data.

    I will try the Eurostat SES 2014 and 2018.

    Ok, I think I have what you want.

    https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/labour-market/earnings/database



    Choose earn_ses_hourly, or play around with the Data Explorer.


  • #2


    Eurostat SES 2014 and 2018.

    https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/labour-market/earnings/database

    Choose earn_ses_hourly, or play around with the Data Explorer.


    Ok, here we go:


    FT workers, median earnings in 2018 = 18.39 per hour

    NB this is in: industry, construction and services (except public administration, defense, compulsory social security)


    That is odd, median earnings ph have fallen since 2014..........????


    Something is up........


  • #2


    Eurostat SES 2014 and 2018.

    https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/labour-market/earnings/database

    Choose earn_ses_hourly, or play around with the Data Explorer.


    FT workers 2018

    median earnings in 2018 = 18.39 per hour
    9th decile = 42.16 per hour

    NB this is in: industry, construction and services (except public administration, defense, compulsory social security)


  • #2


    Just to take an example, I quote from Irish Times 26 June 2020 (article by Eoin Burke-Kennedy)

    "The average full-time salary in the Republic is now nearly €49,000, according to the Central Statistics Office (CSO)"

    That's 942e per week gross - almost 25e per hour for a 38 hour week. Those who earn nothing (presumably pensioners, unemployed etc.) are excluded from this statistic and why should they be excluded?

    So if you to calculate an income figure for every able bodied adult over 18 - including those with zero income - what would that figure look like? What would that "average" and "median" be do you think?

    So I would love to hear that figure?

    Certainly not 49k per annum!


  • #2


    Benedict wrote: »
    Just to take an example, I quote from Irish Times 26 June 2020 (article by Eoin Burke-Kennedy)

    "The average full-time salary in the Republic is now nearly €49,000, according to the Central Statistics Office (CSO)"

    That's 942e per week gross - almost 25e per hour for a 38 hour week. Those who earn nothing (presumably pensioners, unemployed etc.) are excluded from this statistic and why should they be excluded?

    So if you to calculate an income figure for every able bodied adult over 18 - including those with zero income - what would that figure look like? What would that "average" and "median" be do you think?

    So I would love to hear that figure?

    Certainly not 49k per annum!


    Be careful.

    That 49k figure is earnings, not income.

    Also, salary is not a helpful term.

    A worker's base salary can be very different than their earnings.


  • #2


    Benedict wrote: »
    "The average full-time salary in the Republic is now nearly €49,000, according to the Central Statistics Office (CSO)"

    That's 942e per week gross - almost 25e per hour for a 38 hour week. Those who earn nothing (presumably pensioners, unemployed etc.) are excluded from this statistic and why should they be excluded?

    So if you to calculate an income figure for every able bodied adult over 18 - including those with zero income - what would that figure look like? What would that "average" and "median" be do you think?

    So I would love to hear that figure?

    Certainly not 49k per annum!


    What is it exactly that you want?

    Earnings or income data?

    I can provide both.

    It seems you want income data, so off we go to the SILC.

    Hold on a minute.


  • #2


    This is INCOMES data, not earnings.

    SILC 2019

    https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-silc/surveyonincomeandlivingconditionssilc2019/


    PLEASE NOTE - it is on a HOUSEHOLD basis at first, and then the equivalised individual figure is calculated.

    WARNING - please check what is meant by equivalised.




    2019 household incomes

    https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-silc/surveyonincomeandlivingconditionssilc2019/income/

    MEAN

    gross, this is market earned income plus social benefits, but is before tax = 70,092

    disposable, this is after tax = 53,118


    MEDIAN

    gross, this is market earned income plus social benefits, but is before tax = 51,217

    disposable, this is after tax = 43,552


  • #2


    Geuze wrote: »
    This is INCOMES data, not earnings.

    SILC 2019

    https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-silc/surveyonincomeandlivingconditionssilc2019/


    PLEASE NOTE - it is on a HOUSEHOLD basis at first, and then the equivalised individual figure is calculated.

    WARNING - please check what is meant by equivalised.




    2019 household incomes

    https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-silc/surveyonincomeandlivingconditionssilc2019/income/
    before tax = 70,092
    after tax = 53,118


    before tax = 51,217
    after tax = 43,552






    €70,092
    After tax - 47,133
    Monthly - 3,928


    €51,217
    After tax - 37,414
    Monthly - 3,118


  • #2


    Benedict wrote: »

    "The average full-time salary in the Republic is now nearly €49,000, according to the Central Statistics Office (CSO)"

    That's 942e per week gross - almost 25e per hour for a 38 hour week. Those who earn nothing (presumably pensioners, unemployed etc.) are excluded from this statistic and why should they be excluded?

    !

    Of course they should be excluded. its an earnings figure so why would you add those with no earnings?


  • #2


    Benedict wrote: »

    Again, if you want to see what people are earning, look up job.ie - and read the ads in the papers.

    And you're in for a shock!

    That is completely misleading.

    Most companies only advertise for entry-level positions. They tend to promote from within for the higher-level and higher-earning positions.

    As a result, job ads will significantly underestimate average and median earnings by as much as the same again.


  • #2


    €70,092
    After tax - 47,133
    Monthly - 3,928


    €51,217
    After tax - 37,414
    Monthly - 3,118

    Be careful, the SILC data above is on a HOUSEHOLD basis, there could be two or three earners in many households, so I would be careful about applying income tax to the gross figures.


    Note that disposable figures are also provided.


  • #2


    Geuze wrote: »
    This is INCOMES data, not earnings.

    SILC 2019

    https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-silc/surveyonincomeandlivingconditionssilc2019/


    PLEASE NOTE - it is on a HOUSEHOLD basis at first, and then the equivalised individual figure is calculated.

    WARNING - please check what is meant by equivalised.


    2019 household incomes

    https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-silc/surveyonincomeandlivingconditionssilc2019/income/


    MEDIAN

    gross, this is market earned income plus social benefits, but is before tax = 51,217

    disposable, this is after tax = 43,552

    So we know that the middle household has 840 per week disposable income.

    One figure that interested me was digging deeper, by household type.

    See table 2.3c

    https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-silc/surveyonincomeandlivingconditionssilc2019/income/


    For a household with 2 adults and 1-3 kids under 18, the median disposable income is 58,646 or 1,130 per week

    There must be a lot of two earners in these households.


  • #2


    Has anyone got any data on the cost of living in Ireland compared to other European countries?


  • #2


    Has anyone got any data on the cost of living in Ireland compared to other European countries?

    Yes, of course.

    It is 25-30% above the EU average.

    https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/Comparative_price_levels_of_consumer_goods_and_services


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