MORE crap on the way.

Nekarsulm · 20-05-2019 1:33pm

rugerfanatic wrote: »

Great question.

In 1987, I was earning £600 punts per week now I'm earning €400 per week..................

Thats near 800 euro a week, ignoring 30 years inflation....

Were you Taoiseach?
Most of the country was earning that in a month in 1986!

rugerfanatic · 20-05-2019 1:36pm

Nekarsulm wrote: »

Were you Taoiseach?
Most of the country was earning that in a month in 1986!

I should have elaborated in the original post..............and subsequently did above......

rugerfanatic wrote: »

Needless to say, I wasn't earning it in this little bannana Republic

Nekarsulm · 20-05-2019 1:49pm

Just saw that after posting it....

yubabill · 20-05-2019 7:39pm

yubabill wrote: »

The smart thing is to vote as a block, like Muslims do - they have a group here in Ireland which invites election candidates to court the Muslim vote;

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/new-muslim-group-in-dublin-to-encourage-engagement-with-politics-1.2478981

Didn't have time to expand earlier on this -

Anyone remember the Garda at the Justice Committee hearings on firearms in 2015 I think, say that licensed firearms holders exist mainly in a wide-ish band stretching north to south?

So, say 100,000 or so licensed firearm holders live mainly in 2 european election constituencies.

Now, if some single representative could approach prospective Euro MEPs looking for votes and they could realistically promise maybe 500 or 1000 votes.....

Grizzly 45 · 20-05-2019 8:14pm

IF we were all living in one electoral district. Or IF we could break the mentality of voting FF/FG,whoever,because our great grand parents did.IF we could organise it on short notice.IF we could trust the canditates beyond an electoral promise.

yubabill · 20-05-2019 8:58pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

IF we were all living in one electoral district. Or IF we could break the mentality of voting FF/FG,whoever,because our great grand parents did.IF we could organise it on short notice.IF we could trust the canditates beyond an electoral promise.

Point taken, but say we allow that 99% of shooters don't subscribe to a block vote, then that leaves maybe 1000 voters spread across 2 Euro constituencies........

That's a reasonable amount of votes.

Electoral promises? OK we all know about them, but over time and allowing for one or two wins for us from the individual MEP then I think it's worth a try.

meathstevie · 20-05-2019 10:54pm

rugerfanatic wrote: »

Ya right :eek: Getting paid subsidies to do nothing is a major benefit! What other business that isn't viable & making money is bailed out by EU (I repeat €50 million to beef farmers who are in trouble).................

That'a actually one thing the EU has done right, continent wide food security. It's not ideal but definitely beats famine and wildly fluctuating prices depending on the whim of a few...

If it comes to subsidising non viable businesses I reckon farming is far more viable than the current model of banking which is surviving solely on subsidies and having the market rigged to their advantage...

Grizzly 45 · 21-05-2019 12:36am

yubabill wrote: »

Point taken, but say we allow that 99% of shooters don't subscribe to a block vote, then that leaves maybe 1000 voters spread across 2 Euro constituencies........

That's a reasonable amount of votes.

Electoral promises? OK we all know about them, but over time and allowing for one or two wins for us from the individual MEP then I think it's worth a try.

It is worth a try.But maybe we should try and start controlling the game than be chess pieces to be moved about at will? A thousand people becoming card carrying members in a minority party that is long established in the irish political system,and encouraging more of us to join it, as it becomes more and more pro fieldsport and genuinely concerned about enviromental issues and start changing and assimilating it to our way of thinking and ideals sounds alot more appealing.

yubabill · 21-05-2019 6:35am

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

It is worth a try.But maybe we should try and start controlling the game than be chess pieces to be moved about at will? A thousand people becoming card carrying members in a minority party that is long established in the irish political system,and encouraging more of us to join it, as it becomes more and more pro fieldsport and genuinely concerned about enviromental issues and start changing and assimilating it to our way of thinking and ideals sounds alot more appealing.

While I personally would have no problem with that, I'm pretty sure it would be hard to get even 1% of shooters to sign up, given the infighting that's a historical feature of our sport.

IMHO the only way forward with a block vote strategy for a group where everyone is a chief and no-one wants to be an indian, would be to ask everyone who subscribes to the idea who they want to vote for and then go with the majority candidate.

Pure, transparent and continued democracy with a narrow focus might prevent a lot of bickering.

garrettod · 21-05-2019 7:07am

Hi,

No doubt that thee idea of us all lobbying politicians, voting as a block etc. is a good one., but we aren't organised for this election.

Maybe start a thread with some suggestions, start organising people for the next election?

I'm not a massive fan of the NRA, but we could certainly take a lesson from them on how to influence politicians.

In the meantime, we've elections on Friday. I've not had opportunity to speak with one single European candidate (only councillors), but for those who have, have you raised questions about our sport and if so, with who, and what was the response please?

In the short term, perhaps we can quickly put a list together of who is likely to try and do us not harm, if nothing else.

Thanks.

Grizzly 45 · 21-05-2019 11:16am

yubabill wrote: »

While I personally would have no problem with that, I'm pretty sure it would be hard to get even 1% of shooters to sign up, given the infighting that's a historical feature of our sport.

Just 1% of Irish shooters would be an overwhelming number to knock this party's current membership by a factor of 2 to 1

Grizzly 45 · 21-05-2019 11:27am

garrettod wrote: »

Hi,

I'm not a massive fan of the NRA, but we could certainly take a lesson from them on how to influence politicians.

In the short term, perhaps we can quickly put a list together of who is likely to try and do us not harm, if nothing else.

Thanks.

Know how the NRA does it?They have a dedicated hard core bunch of grassroots activists who email,phone ,write and above all LOBBY their repersentatives on ever issue that occurs state or in DC immediately and right away! Nothing to do with money,NRA is compared to big Pharma,Tobacco, Oil and the auto industry in the USA in the peanuts and chump change leauge on donations. Because of this dedicated grassroots level activitism they get heard,alot,and have even been grudgingly admired by the anti gun lobby and the other activit groups as being utterly effective,and wishing they had people as dedicated.
Now,compare that to us over here.... In this case, I have to admire our anti friend down in Callan,he might be a one man band,recycling his letters as the seasons go.But I have to admire his dedication to his cause.On the positive side over here Irish apathy afflicts the antis as much as it afflicts us.:rolleyes:

Kran · 21-05-2019 11:50am

garrettod wrote: »

Hi,

No doubt that thee idea of us all lobbying politicians, voting as a block etc. is a good one., but we aren't organised for this election.

Maybe start a thread with some suggestions, start organising people for the next election?

I'm not a massive fan of the NRA, but we could certainly take a lesson from them on how to influence politicians.

In the meantime, we've elections on Friday. I've not had opportunity to speak with one single European candidate (only councillors), but for those who have, have you raised questions about our sport and if so, with who, and what was the response please?

In the short term, perhaps we can quickly put a list together of who is likely to try and do us not harm, if nothing else.

Thanks.

I’ve been watching threads on Facebook for the last few weeks, on the Nargc and Federation of Cork gunclubs page. There are a few candidates who have given positive feedback in writing but there has been no definitive list announced by the Nargc, which I had hoped would be the case. Just going on the comments I will be voting for Liadh Ni Riadha. I messaged her too to say that the reason I and many thousands of others ( not that I could prove but you would hope) will be voting for her is because of her positive view on fieldsports.
It’s a pity that the Nargc haven’t put a list of supported candidates on their website for all to see, especially the candidates themselves so they would see that we are a big united group that could possibly sway things there way.

oldgit1897 · 21-05-2019 5:24pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Know how the NRA does it?They have a dedicated hard core bunch of grassroots activists who email,phone ,write and above all LOBBY their repersentatives on ever issue that occurs state or in DC immediately and right away! Nothing to do with money,NRA is compared to big Pharma,Tobacco, Oil and the auto industry in the USA in the peanuts and chump change leauge on donations. Because of this dedicated grassroots level activitism they get heard,alot,and have even been grudgingly admired by the anti gun lobby and the other activit groups as being utterly effective,and wishing they had people as dedicated.
Now,compare that to us over here.... In this case, I have to admire our anti friend down in Callan,he might be a one man band,recycling his letters as the seasons go.But I have to admire his dedication to his cause.On the positive side over here Irish apathy afflicts the antis as much as it afflicts us.:rolleyes:

Most of the American shooting channels on Youtube, actively advocate NRA membership. Hickok45 says it at the start of all his videos "If you're not in the NRA, be sure and join today".

Kran · 21-05-2019 5:35pm

The Nargc Facebook page has a list of candidates that have shown support for our sport but it’s buried in the comments. I suggested that they put the list on the website before Friday for non Facebook users, which I imagine is huge as most people I know are not bothered with it any more. I also suggested that it be left there and updated before every election so the candidates themself might come across it( they won’t if it’s buried in Facebook comments). It should be titled “The Nargc recommends these candidates in the upcoming election to its 100,000 members ( guessing that figure). If a party could see a block of votes like this could be swayed their way then I’m sure they would take notice.

oldgit1897 · 21-05-2019 7:13pm

There are so many serious issues and problems going on in this little island, shooting must be second from bottom in terms of importance. As for td's, councellors etc supporting us, so did that bloated lump Biffo when he was taoiseach, until it suited him and the northern hob-goblin to stitch us up.

Grizzly 45 · 22-05-2019 7:22pm

At that stage that fat drunken oaf was so full of his own ****e and too busy telling Merkel[of all people!] how to solve Germanys economic problems by ponzi property schemes,that he had proably forgotten that he was ever for shooting,and who his justice minister actually was.:rolleyes:
Without a doubt it is...But any party or canditate with any sort of shrewdness,could pick up a huge vote by just for once nailing their colours to the mast on this issue.

oldgit1897 · 22-05-2019 8:04pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

At that stage that fat drunken oaf was so full of his own ****e and too busy telling Merkel[of all people!] how to solve Germanys economic problems by ponzi property schemes,that he had proably forgotten that he was ever for shooting,and who his justice minister actually was.:rolleyes:
Without a doubt it is...But any party or canditate with any sort of shrewdness,could pick up a huge vote by just for once nailing their colours to the mast on this issue.

Well thank god we will never do that again ! Says he who has just seen a run down council house sold for nearly 600k :rolleyes:. The Irish, we really don't learn lessons do we ?

yubabill · 22-05-2019 11:36pm

garrettod wrote: »

Hi,

No doubt that thee idea of us all lobbying politicians, voting as a block etc. is a good one., but we aren't organised for this election.

Maybe start a thread with some suggestions, start organising people for the next election?

I'm not a massive fan of the NRA, but we could certainly take a lesson from them on how to influence politicians.

In the meantime, we've elections on Friday. I've not had opportunity to speak with one single European candidate (only councillors), but for those who have, have you raised questions about our sport and if so, with who, and what was the response please?

In the short term, perhaps we can quickly put a list together of who is likely to try and do us not harm, if nothing else.

Thanks.

Was hoping someone else would answer.

From memory, from extensive phone calls.emails with the politicians mentioned, during the EU gun ban directive in 2017(?) our main ally was Marian Harkin MEP, from the ALDE group in the EU parliament. Unfortunately, she is not seeking re-election.

Our main adversary was Mairead McGuinness, Vice-something big in the EU Parliament, from FG and the EPP group. Initially supportive, but changed sides following a consultation with FRANCES FITZGERALD (now seeking an EU seat in Dublin).

Ming Flanagan came down on our side, but like Marian Harkin, was hamstrung by Juncker in the vote.

Leaning towards us were Sinn Fein MEP's, who were neither a help nor a hindrance, but who probably thought they were helping by abstaining - my main contact was Matt Carthy.

The FF guy in the wheelchair from Cork gave us his full support, but he is not standing this time.

Brian Hayes FG (not standing) played us off from both sides.

Grizzly 45 · 23-05-2019 1:09pm

Marian is a big loss to us alright.The jury is still out whether those that "supported" the EU gun ban did us a favour or not too. All down to perspective I guess.The East bloc lads in Firearms United Network wanted the whole directive collapsed .Which IMO was an impossibility,and could have been restructured with something much worse.We had diluted the proposals of the bans by something like 80% in the directive,so this is what our MEPs voted for,and are claimed to be anti and selling out because of it... Kind of reminds me of the Irish civil war and the treaty signing with the UK.Dammed if you do ,dammed if you dont.

TBH,we have in the big picture,so few MEPS from Ireland,that even if they voted with both hands up on an issue,they will be a minority against the big four on any issues...On an aside ,this is why the US has this thing called the Electoral College,which works pretty well for the last 235 years,and prevents little pouplation states from being squeezed out of decision making,by massive pouplation East&West coast states.

oldgit1897 · 23-05-2019 1:42pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Marian is a big loss to us alright.The jury is still out whether those that "supported" the EU gun ban did us a favour or not too. All down to perspective I guess.The East bloc lads in Firearms United Network wanted the whole directive collapsed .Which IMO was an impossibility,and could have been restructured with something much worse.We had diluted the proposals of the bans by something like 80% in the directive,so this is what our MEPs voted for,and are claimed to be anti and selling out because of it... Kind of reminds me of the Irish civil war and the treaty signing with the UK.Dammed if you do ,dammed if you dont.

TBH,we have in the big picture,so few MEPS from Ireland,that even if they voted with both hands up on an issue,they will be a minority against the big four on any issues...On an aside ,this is why the US has this thing called the Electoral College,which works pretty well for the last 235 years,and prevents little pouplation states from being squeezed out of decision making,by massive pouplation East&West coast states.

I get the impression that if the eu commission want something, gun ban or otherwise, they get it and don't let that pesky democracy stuff get in the way. The eu parliament isn't really much of an obstacle. Hence the widespread rise of people not being happy with the eu as a whole.

Grizzly 45 · 23-05-2019 2:19pm

Gunsweek article on the Swiss referendum.Looks like its possible that every five years the EU could come back for further gun bans,until there is nothing left Eu wide.:(
https://www.gunsweek.com/en/culture/articles/swiss-gun-control-referendum?fbclid=IwAR1e1bvRjn-OIDHgq36CqDywiz4lH6zWwz36D8ChzGUY4DLUp_HFf

oldgit1897 · 23-05-2019 2:38pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Gunsweek article on the Swiss referendum.Looks like its possible that every five years the EU could come back for further gun bans,until there is nothing left Eu wide.:(
https://www.gunsweek.com/en/culture/articles/swiss-gun-control-referendum?fbclid=IwAR1e1bvRjn-OIDHgq36CqDywiz4lH6zWwz36D8ChzGUY4DLUp_HFf

And i would imagine they will keep coming back. They are playing the long game, like a shark eating a whale, they won't try to swallow it in one go, just keep nibbling away at all sides until there is little left.

solarwinds · 23-05-2019 2:48pm

The EU will always leave themselves a back door to ultimately get their own way in the long term. Swiss firearms were never an issue because they were not an EU member so the rules didn't apply.
But in true EU fashion apparently its now a condition of being a Schengan country that you now have to obey the EU overlords laws that only apply to the member states.
Switzerland keep your guns sure its no problem your not a member state, but oh hang on if you would still like to trade and have free movement of people with us then get out your angle grinders no exceptions.
Whether a country is a member or not is irrelevant if the EU want it they get it, I mean for god sake how many times have they made us vote on the same treaties until they get the answer they want.
How our so called representatives in the Dail dont see this as a dictatorship is beyond me, or maybe they do but just couldn't care less. Because in a few years they will still get their same wages for reading out todays EU news we all must obey (oh wait they already do), until such time as germany decide we no longer need local government and sure it will be just easier if they do it from there.
Oh its the long game alright.
Rant over.

oldgit1897 · 23-05-2019 3:10pm

solarwinds wrote: »

The EU will always leave themselves a back door to ultimately get their own way in the long term. Swiss firearms were never an issue because they were not an EU member so the rules didn't apply.
But in true EU fashion apparently its now a condition of being a Schengan country that you now have to obey the EU overlords laws that only apply to the member states.
Switzerland keep your guns sure its no problem your not a member state, but oh hang on if you would still like to trade and have free movement of people with us then get out your angle grinders no exceptions.
Whether a country is a member or not is irrelevant if the EU want it they get it, I mean for god sake how many times have they made us vote on the same treaties until they get the answer they want.
How our so called representatives in the Dail dont see this as a dictatorship is beyond me, or maybe they do but just couldn't care less. Because in a few years they will still get their same wages for reading out todays EU news we all must obey (oh wait they already do), until such time as germany decide we no longer need local government and sure it will be just easier if they do it from there.
Oh its the long game alright.
Rant over.

The Irish government are complicit in selling us out. Remember Bertie with the nice or lisbon treaties, i forget which. "Don't read it, just vote yes, i don't understand it, i didn't read, it but we need to vote for it".

Plus i don't think the irish care so long as they can get cheap loans to buy vastly overvalued houses, and 60k audi's and bmw's. Wait until the lisbon treaty kicks in next year, it means the eu will be able to set tax rates and they are itching to get at Irelands corporate tax rate, which attracts the big US companies. There will be a lot of head scratching after that.

Grizzly 45 · 23-05-2019 3:40pm

[QUOTE=solarwinds;
How our so-called representatives in the Dail dont see this as a dictatorship is beyond me, or maybe they do but just couldn't care less. Because in a few years they will still get their same wages for reading out today's EU news we all must obey (oh wait they already do), until such time as germany decide we no longer need local government and sure it will be just easier if they do it from there.
Oh its the long game alright.
Rant over.[/QUOTE]

It has been a long standing Irish govt policy to let "the big boys" decide things in Brussels since about 1976.Have you ever watched them,body langaugewise in the news reports?They are docile little lambs, who realise they are playing with the big boys and are sooo far out of their depths that their glorified county councillor tactics that got them to the Dail are useless when you are dealing people with REAL power.Just for an aside,but kind of critical for anyone dealing in diplomacy and the like.How many of our Euro MEPS or govt can actually speak fluently a EU langauge?[gaelic excluded] Rason I'm saying this is vitally important,is simply because translators cannot translate the nuances and gestures of a langauge.I refer to BIFFO telling Merkel how to sort out german economy by ponzi schemes in property buying in the Celtic Tiger era..If that oaf from Offaly had known some Germanand the German mindset of speech.He would have wilted down to 2inches with a top hat on at the utter disguised dagger looks Merkel was firing at him.:eek::eek:

So if our lot dont even have a fluency in another lingothat they can dispense with translators...What hope have they in negoiating?? But shure why bother?With 150K worth of unvouched expenses PA... Its a race for a "who wants to be an Irish milionare MEP"seat in the long run. Look at how much Brian Crowley trouserd and he was hardly in the place due to his ill health.

solarwinds · 23-05-2019 3:45pm

How can we ever forget the little pat on the head for Enda Kenny, that is all we are to them obedient little children. You dont do that to an equal or someone you respect it was extremely condescending to him and us as a nation to see our leader being treated like that.
Says it all really.

BryanL · 23-05-2019 10:33pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

BIFFO telling Merkel how to sort out german economy by ponzi schemes in property buying in the Celtic Tiger era..If that oaf from Offaly had known some Germanand the German mindset of speech.He would have wilted down to 2inches with a top hat on at the utter disguised dagger looks Merkel was firing at him.:eek::eek:

WE digress, but didn't the German banks climb deep into the Irish property Ponzi scheme that was the last Celtic Tiger with unsecured bonds?

ECB insisted they got their cash back from the Irish Taxpayers (which does prove the cowtowing point being made)

oldgit1897 · 23-05-2019 11:01pm

solarwinds wrote: »

How can we ever forget the little pat on the head for Enda Kenny, that is all we are to them obedient little children. You dont do that to an equal or someone you respect it was extremely condescending to him and us as a nation to see our leader being treated like that.
Says it all really.

If Kenny had a ball to his name he would have chinned that slimy frog :mad:

Grizzly 45 · 23-05-2019 11:02pm

BryanL wrote: »

WE digress, but didn't the German banks climb deep into the Irish property Ponzi scheme that was the last Celtic Tiger with unsecured bonds?

ECB insisted they got their cash back from the Irish Taxpayers (which does prove the cowtowing point being made)

Remember tho,banks are there to make themselves&shareholders money... Ireland was a ripe market for the German banks.Lets face it the average German is the most frugal fecker going.Esp the older generation of post war years.They live to work,[us Irish work to live,or did back then].A big spend for Germans would be buying a car or washing machine,and well within affordable payments,avoiding bank loans if at all possible.So the market for money loaning to the natives was saited,we OTOH were a ripe target for loans and cheap money,and in fairness "we[and thats a qualified we] partied".Seriously,some of the excesse here was ridicilous.Even on boards here.Remember posts of lads paying over a grand for Glocks in Irish gun dealers??:eek:And being considerd cheap skates...So yeah,it was no surprise then that the German banks wanted their money back in 08,and it was less of a surprise to me that the Irish govt nationalised essentially private banking debt.Why?Simply because the politicans are in bed with the bankers,builders and barristers. If the Govt had said to the banks,"not our problem lads".The banks reply would have been"Remember that at the next local and general elections when you need a loan to run an election campaign!And BTW we are foreclosing on your loan for your other projects and mortages."
They all meet,drink,play golf and screw in the same social circles,so it was never going to happen that we would see Madoff style arrests of Anglo bankers being frogmarched into squad cars and driven off at top speed to the local nick.

The whole thing is rotten to the core here.You would literally need a Trump like figure here to break the wheel.Someone with lots of their own money,not moving in the Dublin power circle or of the D4 set,not beholden to any political set or caste,and who loves their country genuinely,not paying lip service to patriotism.IOW an Irish unicorn...:(

garrettod · 24-05-2019 12:25am

yubabill wrote: »

....

Our main adversary was Mairead McGuinness, Vice-something big in the EU Parliament, from FG and the EPP group. Initially supportive, but changed sides following a consultation with FRANCES FITZGERALD (now seeking an EU seat in Dublin). ....

No voting for the oul blue shirt FG crowd, that's a given

JohnFitz2332 · 24-05-2019 10:56pm

Greens are feckin cleaning up

oldgit1897 · 24-05-2019 11:34pm

JohnFitz2332 wrote: »

Greens are feckin cleaning up

I despair of this dreary kip of a country :mad:

Grizzly 45 · 25-05-2019 1:50pm

WAIT Until they all have to start paying for this sht that they want Their financial plan looks like it was written by a bunch of 12 year olds.But seemingly they refer to 16 year old Swedish girls for all their enviromental policies,maybe this is possible?

Croohur · 25-05-2019 3:45pm

I saw a tweet from a journo who said that Green candidates who did minimal canvassing with little thought of being elected are now having to confront the possibility of themselves actually getting elected and doing something. Journo talked to one who seemed terrified of the thought. Join the club me bucko.

solarwinds · 25-05-2019 4:45pm

Ah well you know the old saying,
Be careful what you wish for, you might just get it.

oldgit1897 · 25-05-2019 5:02pm

I reckon a lot of people have despaired of the tweedle dum-tweedle dee, fg/ff pantomime. Could not stomach voting for the marxist/leninists, people before washing, richboy communist lot, and were left with the greens.

Feisar · 27-05-2019 8:48am

oldgit1897 wrote: »

I reckon a lot of people have despaired of the tweedle dum-tweedle dee, fg/ff pantomime. Could not stomach voting for the marxist/leninists, people before washing, richboy communist lot, and were left with the greens.

That was me so I chose not to vote. People will say I won't be able to complain and that's fair enough. I'll shrug my shoulders and nod my head at whatever crap comes along. The system won't be changed from the inside IMO, all voting does is prop up the status quo.

oldgit1897 · 27-05-2019 4:09pm

Feisar wrote: »

That was me so I chose not to vote. People will say I won't be able to complain and that's fair enough. I'll shrug my shoulders and nod my head at whatever crap comes along. The system won't be changed from the inside IMO, all voting does is prop up the status quo.

I fail to see how if you don't vote for the usual twits. Anyway, with the melons heading to europe in droves, it will be interesting to see what green student union-esq rubbish they will be introducing

Bigger taxes on petrol/diesel etc ? They are none to fond of the shooting community, intensive farming, you name it.

Grizzly 45 · 28-05-2019 1:45am

Dont think they will be much of a threat to us in Europe.It isnt that much of a massive gain for them and the big 3,have also got new Right wing/skeptics to balance out this lot.The centreists have virtually collapsed in Brussels,so it will be intresting.
Back home, their more wackadoodle taxation policies will be gobbled up bu FG/FF and used to tax us,as we "all voted green"and want climate change action":mad: Local elections and this lot sitting on councils ,well let them the majority are Dubs anyway,and once they turn Rathdown Dunlaghorie into a Brighton /Hove Green utopia of city management...Read[ Mogadishu on Sea in the UK] and people start seeing their property value start to fall,they will be out just as quicj in the next locals.

meathstevie · 30-05-2019 12:55am

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Remember tho,banks are there to make themselves&shareholders money... Ireland was a ripe market for the German banks.Lets face it the average German is the most frugal fecker going.Esp the older generation of post war years.They live to work,[us Irish work to live,or did back then].A big spend for Germans would be buying a car or washing machine,and well within affordable payments,avoiding bank loans if at all possible.So the market for money loaning to the natives was saited,we OTOH were a ripe target for loans and cheap money,and in fairness "we[and thats a qualified we] partied".Seriously,some of the excesse here was ridicilous.Even on boards here.Remember posts of lads paying over a grand for Glocks in Irish gun dealers??:eek:And being considerd cheap skates...So yeah,it was no surprise then that the German banks wanted their money back in 08,and it was less of a surprise to me that the Irish govt nationalised essentially private banking debt.Why?Simply because the politicans are in bed with the bankers,builders and barristers. If the Govt had said to the banks,"not our problem lads".The banks reply would have been"Remember that at the next local and general elections when you need a loan to run an election campaign!And BTW we are foreclosing on your loan for your other projects and mortages."
They all meet,drink,play golf and screw in the same social circles,so it was never going to happen that we would see Madoff style arrests of Anglo bankers being frogmarched into squad cars and driven off at top speed to the local nick.

The whole thing is rotten to the core here.You would literally need a Trump like figure here to break the wheel.Someone with lots of their own money,not moving in the Dublin power circle or of the D4 set,not beholden to any political set or caste,and who loves their country genuinely,not paying lip service to patriotism.IOW an Irish unicorn...:(

Remember how Sean Quinn fared out with practices that were probably not near as sharp as others who conveniently got evidence destroyed by a so called investigator in full view of a convenient cctv camera ?

Grizzly 45 · 30-05-2019 1:22pm

9weeks for contempt of court?...:rolleyes:

Compared to Bernie Madoff in NY,for just about the same type of financial crimes as all our lot are guilty of in Ireland.Turning the entire country into one gigantic ponzi property scheme.:mad:

https://www.businessinsider.com/how-bernie-madoffs-ponzi-scheme-worked-2014-7?r=US&IR=T
David Drumm did more time than the whole shower in Ireland awaiting extradition in a US jail,and still gets only 6 years in the nick here.Sacrifical lamb springs to mind.

oldgit1897 · 30-05-2019 1:32pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

9weeks for contempt of court?...:rolleyes:

Compared to Bernie Madoff in NY,for just about the same type of financial crimes as all our lot are guilty of in Ireland.Turning the entire country into one gigantic ponzi property scheme.:mad:

https://www.businessinsider.com/how-bernie-madoffs-ponzi-scheme-worked-2014-7?r=US&IR=T
David Drumm did more time than the whole shower in Ireland awaiting extradition in a US jail,and still gets only 6 years in the nick here.Sacrifical lamb springs to mind.

You got to admire the yanks when it comes to prison sentences, they don't mess about.

Cass · 30-05-2019 1:55pm

And it's why they lead the world in persons imprisoned per head of capita and total. Beating China, russia, Brazil, etc. by quite some margin.

The three strike rule is silly, long sentences for minor offences, varying sentences for the same drug offences (Thanks Bill Clinton for that), etc. It is in need of reform, but it's slow and usually when change occurs it's too late as technology and times have moved on so the new laws become defunct as soon as they are created.

oldgit1897 · 30-05-2019 2:00pm

Cass wrote: »

And it's why they lead the world in persons imprisoned per head of capita and total. Beating China, russia, Brazil, etc. by quite some margin.

The three strike rule is silly, long sentences for minor offences, varying sentences for the same drug offences (Thanks Bill Clinton for that), etc. It is in need of reform, but it's slow and usually when change occurs it's too late as technology and times have moved on so the new laws become defunct as soon as they are created.

Yeah, but there are other reasons for that too, probably the way their economy is structured, very little social welfare, no healthcare etc. You have no arse in your trousers and someone offers you big money to be a mule or a dealer, what are you going to do ?

Grizzly 45 · 30-05-2019 2:50pm

It is a mess alright,but also very big busisness. Whoever said "crime doesn't pay" didnt look too closely at their statement.It pays very well for ;building new jails,keeping police forces in money and prision warders employed,not to mention an entire judical system,security products,and of course ,the gun industry in the US.:) but in some cases like NYC "broken window" law it s the only way to keep some sort of law and order in a society like the US. I mean could you imagine how bad it would be over there if they had the cases like ours of people with 95 plus convictions walking out of court to go and comit more crime?

meathstevie · 30-05-2019 10:29pm

Cass wrote: »

And it's why they lead the world in persons imprisoned per head of capita and total. Beating China, russia, Brazil, etc. by quite some margin.

The three strike rule is silly, long sentences for minor offences, varying sentences for the same drug offences (Thanks Bill Clinton for that), etc. It is in need of reform, but it's slow and usually when change occurs it's too late as technology and times have moved on so the new laws become defunct as soon as they are created.

Cass, I'm not too sure but I read into that three strike rule a bit a few years ago and as I remember it it's applicable to what would be Circuit Court offences here. You're not going to end.up in a federal prison for life for not paying three speeding tickets.

Cass · 30-05-2019 10:51pm

oldgit1897 wrote: »

Yeah, but there are other reasons for that too, probably the way their economy is structured,

Nope.

You cannot (and i don't mean you personally, i mean the general you) keep blaming all ills on society. If people took responsibility for their actions and stop trying to blame it on other factors. I was broke so i robbed a bank, i wanted a car so i stole it, i liked his watch so i assaulted him to get it. If you want something get up, work, and earn it.

Did you know black single rates shot up after the repeal of Jim Crow laws (19% prior to 1965, and over 75% after) because of the welfare state and subsequent culture that followed. There was no need for Father to support the kids because the state did. Now please, PLEASE, do not take that as anything other than a statement of fact. I am not saying we should go back to that backward type of thinking, but under segregation laws blacks did not get the same benefits as whites so when the laws were ended they did.

very little social welfare

Obama, and this is not a political soapbox preaching session, created 8 years of rising welfare population and one of the highest rates of welfare dependency. I watched a documentary on it and one woman stood out as she had 6 kids and was receiving 1,200 per month for rent, free phone, 850 per month for food, and a host of other welfare benefits. When asked if she would return to work she said no, because she couldn't earn enough in any job she would get to afford what she has now for not working.

I appreciate she was most likely, as the program never said, on the higher end of the spectrum, but it shows the dependency on welfare and people's attitude.

, no healthcare etc.

The healthcare system is a mess however Obama care made that worse. Again not a chance to attack Barry, but even one of his former advisors said it was an unmitigated disaster. You paid more for the same healthcare you previously had, you DID NOT keep your Doctor even though Obama said you could, and if you didn't pay for it they fined you for not having healthcare and the fines could reach the same cost as the actual premiums.

A single tier health system doesn't work and is essentially forced labor, but the two tier system opens the doors for abuse and making billions. However in a capital society that is how it works.

You have no arse in your trousers and someone offers you big money to be a mule or a dealer, what are you going to do ?

Turn it down.

Not everyone from bad neighborhoods or broken/single families becomes a drug dealer or criminal. However start with basics. Look to the family unit (regardless of your thoughts about marraige as an institution).

63% of youth suicides are from fatherless homes
90% of all homeless and runaway children are from fatherless homes
85% of all children who show behavior disorders come from fatherless homes
80% of rapists with anger problems come from fatherless homes
71% of all high school dropouts come from fatherless homes
Fatherless children are twice as likely to drop out of school.
Children with Fathers who are involved are 40% less likely to repeat a grade in school.
Children with Fathers who are involved are 70% less likely to drop out of school.
Children with Fathers who are involved are more likely to get A’s in school.
Children with Fathers who are involved are more likely to enjoy school and engage in extracurricular activities.
75% of all adolescent patients in chemical abuse centers come from fatherless homes.

I agree that it's easier to go that route and i also agree with you that education is key, and sorely lacking, but again there are less poor people in America than ever before, and if you read an article from the likes of Bjorn Lomborg it links GDP and poverty to climate change. So it helps people financially and physically.

Cass · 30-05-2019 10:54pm

meathstevie wrote: »

Cass, I'm not too sure but I read into that three strike rule a bit a few years ago and as I remember it it's applicable to what would be Circuit Court offences here. You're not going to end.up in a federal prison for life for not paying three speeding tickets.

Absolutely correct.

It's for violent or severe felonies. However the reason i say it's stupid is, a crime can be tried as a misdemeanor or felony so it's dealer choice. Secondly if the third crime carries a sentence of say 5 to 8 years it's irrelevant as the person gets an automatic 25 year to life sentence. Thirdly that additional 18-20 years is 18-20 years of prison guards, meals, and basically minding grown ass men/women at huge cost to the exchequer.

oldgit1897 · 30-05-2019 11:16pm

Cass wrote: »

Nope.

You cannot (and i don't mean you personally, i mean the general you) keep blaming all ills on society. If people took responsibility for their actions and stop trying to blame it on other factors. I was broke so i robbed a bank, i wanted a car so i stole it, i liked his watch so i assaulted him to get it. If you want something get up, work, and earn it.

Did you know black single rates shot up after the repeal of Jim Crow laws (19% prior to 1965, and over 75% after) because of the welfare state and subsequent culture that followed. There was no need for Father to support the kids because the state did. Now please, PLEASE, do not take that as anything other than a statement of fact. I am not saying we should go back to that backward type of thinking, but under segregation laws blacks did not get the same benefits as whites so when the laws were ended they did.

Obama, and this is not a political soapbox preaching session, created 8 years of rising welfare population and one of the highest rates of welfare dependency. I watched a documentary on it and one woman stood out as she had 6 kids and was receiving 1,200 per month for rent, free phone, 850 per month for food, and a host of other welfare benefits. When asked if she would return to work she said no, because she couldn't earn enough in any job she would get to afford what she has now for not working.

I appreciate she was most likely, as the program never said, on the higher end of the spectrum, but it shows the dependency on welfare and people's attitude.

The healthcare system is a mess however Obama care made that worse. Again not a chance to attack Barry, but even one of his former advisors said it was an unmitigated disaster. You paid more for the same healthcare you previously had, you DID NOT keep your Doctor even though Obama said you could, and if you didn't pay for it they fined you for not having healthcare and the fines could reach the same cost as the actual premiums.

A single tier health system doesn't work and is essentially forced labor, but the two tier system opens the doors for abuse and making billions. However in a capital society that is how it works.

Turn it down.

Not everyone from bad neighborhoods or broken/single families becomes a drug dealer or criminal. However start with basics. Look to the family unit (regardless of your thoughts about marraige as an institution).
63% of youth suicides are from fatherless homes

90% of all homeless and runaway children are from fatherless homes

85% of all children who show behavior disorders come from fatherless homes

80% of rapists with anger problems come from fatherless homes

71% of all high school dropouts come from fatherless homes

Fatherless children are twice as likely to drop out of school.

Children with Fathers who are involved are 40% less likely to repeat a grade in school.

Children with Fathers who are involved are 70% less likely to drop out of school.

Children with Fathers who are involved are more likely to get A’s in school.

Children with Fathers who are involved are more likely to enjoy school and engage in extracurricular activities.

75% of all adolescent patients in chemical abuse centers come from fatherless homes.

I agree that it's easier to go that route and i also agree with you that education is key, and sorely lacking, but again there are less poor people in America than ever before, and if you read an article from the likes of Bjorn Lomborg it links GDP and poverty to climate change. So it helps people financially and physically.

Yeah and exactly the same thing is happening here in Little old Ireland, and we're told its progressive. My niece tells me in her class virtually none of the girls has a father living with them at home, dads are for the weekend, you meet them in the shopping centre for the hours the judge says in court.

We were told that was progress years ago. Abortion is progress we are told, gay couples adopting children is progress we are told, wide open borders is progress we are told. Sadly i don't believe a word of any of it. Personally i think Ireland in 20 years, or whenever the next economic crash hits, is going to be a hell of a mess. We wanted to be like other countries like the UK and America, so we are, and we will have the same problems they do.

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