HKC VS Siemens App Discussion Stickey Temp

bk · 11-02-2019 1:50pm

altor wrote: »

Id be looking at what they cover with the Go Konnect.
Perimeter protection is always going to be better than a few PIRs around your home.
Also what they use on the windows, contacts only offer no real protection.
I do like the home automation side of the panel they use.

Looks like a rebrand of the US company Alarm.com [1]

I'd be sow to tie my other Home Automation tech directly [2] into the alarm system and high ongoing subs. Most HA devices don't need a sub.

[1] I notice that shock sensors seem to be pretty unique to the UK and Ireland market, they seem to largely not exist in the US. Instead they seem to go for audible glass break sensors, curtain PIR's and external PIR's in the US for enhanced perimeter protection. Most systems seem ot just use PIR's and basic contact sensors.

I also notice that external bell boxes are pretty rare in the US!

[2] It is nice when you can indirectly integrate systems via the cloud, etc. For instance, if my Yale Alarm goes off, all my Hue Smart lights will start flashing red, turning the whole house into a SAAB

But they are still separate systems, so if I decide to change in future, I don't have to replace everything.

altor · 11-02-2019 4:41pm

bk wrote: »

Looks like a rebrand of the US company Alarm.com [1]

I'd be sow to tie my other Home Automation tech directly [2] into the alarm system and high ongoing subs. Most HA devices don't need a sub.

[1] I notice that shock sensors seem to be pretty unique to the UK and Ireland market, they seem to largely not exist in the US. Instead they seem to go for audible glass break sensors, curtain PIR's and external PIR's in the US for enhanced perimeter protection. Most systems seem ot just use PIR's and basic contact sensors.

I also notice that external bell boxes are pretty rare in the US!

[2] It is nice when you can indirectly integrate systems via the cloud, etc. For instance, if my Yale Alarm goes off, all my Hue Smart lights will start flashing red, turning the whole house into a SAAB But they are still separate systems, so if I decide to change in future, I don't have to replace everything.

Id say you are correct as they are using Alarm.com.

That is correct, in Ireland we prefer to cover windows and doors with the back up of motion detectors.

I've the same with the wifi lights coming on when alarm goes off on my HKC 10270, its a nice feature.
I have the sub every year on the alarm anyway so its nice to be able to use it to do same.

Gforcemurphy · 16-02-2019 10:45am

The GoKonnect sales guy called out to the house the other day, nice guy and the product looks good, but I think the whole pricing strategy is a bit off-putting. €700 extra upfront payment if you go for the self-monitored option (with €120 per year for the GSM backup sim).

The monitored option is less upfront but €30 pm to monitor on a 3-year contract. Upfront payment is however comparable to what I might pay for a total non-monitored solution with HKC / Siemens etc.

Also, the contacts are all wireless, which feels like a waste of economy since my house is pre-wired. They don’t do shock sensors (and I’m told the contact sensors will go off if a window pane is smashed in, which makes no sense and goes against everything I’ve read).

The solution would incorporate 11 contacts downstairs (all doors and windows), 3 PIRs (one upstairs) and no contacts upstairs. I wouldn’t call the upstairs windows accessible, in fairness.

The whole system seems neat and pretty intuitive, but it feels like a hefty premium in exchange for this. I could link the system into smart locks, video doorbell, cameras, lighting and heating in time - that’s part of the sales spiel. (Except apparently the thermostat linking wouldn’t work for us as we’ve underfloor heating downstairs).

Plus it’s impossible to avoid the feeling that they’ve just jacked up the self-monitored price in order to make it seem like the monitored is a comparably more favourable option.

The sales guy was pretty keen to listen to my misgivings when I told him, and to do something on the price, but presumably his remit only goes so far on that front.

Any thoughts / experiences with this company?

Should I move this to another thread?

stuartkee · 16-02-2019 1:31pm

Yes my advice is follow the advice you have been given and install a pre wired alarm asap before you get broken into . Don't buy a toy buy a real alarm that rings and does what you want it to do not what a company wants it to do.

quote="Gforcemurphy;109438982"]The GoKonnect sales guy called out to the house the other day, nice guy and the product looks good, but I think the whole pricing strategy is a bit off-putting. €700 extra upfront payment if you go for the self-monitored option (with €120 per year for the GSM backup sim).

The monitored option is less upfront but €30 pm to monitor on a 3-year contract. Upfront payment is however comparable to what I might pay for a total non-monitored solution with HKC / Siemens etc.

Also, the contacts are all wireless, which feels like a waste of economy since my house is pre-wired. They don’t do shock sensors (and I’m told the contact sensors will go off if a window pane is smashed in, which makes no sense and goes against everything I’ve read).

The solution would incorporate 11 contacts downstairs (all doors and windows), 3 PIRs (one upstairs) and no contacts upstairs. I wouldn’t call the upstairs windows accessible, in fairness.

The whole system seems neat and pretty intuitive, but it feels like a hefty premium in exchange for this. I could link the system into smart locks, video doorbell, cameras, lighting and heating in time - that’s part of the sales spiel. (Except apparently the thermostat linking wouldn’t work for us as we’ve underfloor heating downstairs).

Plus it’s impossible to avoid the feeling that they’ve just jacked up the self-monitored price in order to make it seem like the monitored is a comparably more favourable option.

The sales guy was pretty keen to listen to my misgivings when I told him, and to do something on the price, but presumably his remit only goes so far on that front.

Any thoughts / experiences with this company?

Should I move this to another thread?[/quote]

Gforcemurphy · 16-02-2019 2:48pm

Okay, sense a bit of impatience / patronising tone there but appreciate the feedback nonetheless. Think it’s a bit unfair to call it a toy, but sure look we all have our opinions and I did ask for people’s opinion after all. Just trying to find out what I can before I find the right solution, before I get broken into.

Cheers.

altor · 16-02-2019 4:17pm

Gforcemurphy wrote: »

The GoKonnect sales guy called out to the house the other day, nice guy and the product looks good, but I think the whole pricing strategy is a bit off-putting. €700 extra upfront payment if you go for the self-monitored option (with €120 per year for the GSM backup sim).

The monitored option is less upfront but €30 pm to monitor on a 3-year contract. Upfront payment is however comparable to what I might pay for a total non-monitored solution with HKC / Siemens etc.

Also, the contacts are all wireless, which feels like a waste of economy since my house is pre-wired. They don’t do shock sensors (and I’m told the contact sensors will go off if a window pane is smashed in, which makes no sense and goes against everything I’ve read).

The solution would incorporate 11 contacts downstairs (all doors and windows), 3 PIRs (one upstairs) and no contacts upstairs. I wouldn’t call the upstairs windows accessible, in fairness.

The whole system seems neat and pretty intuitive, but it feels like a hefty premium in exchange for this. I could link the system into smart locks, video doorbell, cameras, lighting and heating in time - that’s part of the sales spiel. (Except apparently the thermostat linking wouldn’t work for us as we’ve underfloor heating downstairs).

Plus it’s impossible to avoid the feeling that they’ve just jacked up the self-monitored price in order to make it seem like the monitored is a comparably more favourable option.

The sales guy was pretty keen to listen to my misgivings when I told him, and to do something on the price, but presumably his remit only goes so far on that front.

Any thoughts / experiences with this company?

Should I move this to another thread?

That is how the upfront systems work, they get the money off you over the time you are in contract and extra if you keep it on.

If he told you the contact will pick up vibrations he is telling lies.
Contact will only show the window opening.

I do like the automation side of that panel but there are other ways of controlling devices even if its not linked to your alarm system.

KoolKid · 03-04-2019 7:17pm

An increase of over 40% on the way next month for HKC app usage.:eek:

altor · 04-04-2019 8:14pm

Just confirmed this is not going ahead due to installers complaints.
HKC will be funding this by other means.
Prices to stay the same.

KoolKid · 05-04-2019 7:03am

I was curious as to what the reference is to them installing fibre throughout Europe.
If their servers are in a data centre they don't need to worry about fibre.

vintagecosmos · 05-04-2019 7:10am

KoolKid wrote: »

I was curious as to what the reference is to them installing fibre throughout Europe.
If their servers are in a data centre they don't need to worry about fibre.

Curious about that myself. Also if they have cancelled the price increase that was a quick climb down.

Drifter50 · 05-04-2019 8:03am

The whole event is odd and very strange. Gerry Kelly has been in this business for 40 years and would know all the players very well. He was clearly told to do this by his new masters in Abloy Assa to test the market I guess.

I figure they will be back with a "revised" strategy shortly

KoolKid · 05-04-2019 8:40am

Drifter50 wrote: »

The whole event is odd and very strange. Gerry Kelly has been in this business for 40 years and would know all the players very well. He was clearly told to do this by his new masters in Abloy Assa to test the market I guess.

I figure they will be back with a "revised" strategy shortly

You can be sure.

kub · 08-04-2019 9:25pm

Drifter50 wrote: »

The whole event is odd and very strange. Gerry Kelly has been in this business for 40 years and would know all the players very well. He was clearly told to do this by his new masters in Abloy Assa to test the market I guess.

I figure they will be back with a "revised" strategy shortly

So is it clear or are you just guessing ?

bk · 15-04-2019 3:43pm

KoolKid wrote: »

I was curious as to what the reference is to them installing fibre throughout Europe.
If their servers are in a data centre they don't need to worry about fibre.

Yes, I was quiet surprised by that. I assume some excuse that they thought would sound good to non technical people.

The alternative is worse, that the HKC servers are sitting in the back of the HKC office connected by consumer broadband :eek:

Drifter50 wrote: »

He was clearly told to do this by his new masters in Abloy Assa to test the market I guess.

Except Assa Abloys Yale alarm systems have completely free monitoring, no sub charges or app charges at all. All while adding cool new features every month or two *

* Integration with Philips Hue Smart Lights, Apple Watch support, in just the last few months as an example.

KoolKid · 15-04-2019 6:31pm

I think the notification was aimed at end users who might not see through the speel. However in many cases the end user is the installer.
It didn't go down too well with installers judging by the response across multiple social media platforms. A 40% increase was too much for most to take. Hence the huge U-Turn by HKC.
Only a matter of time though before they get it back in some other form I,d guess.

kub · 15-04-2019 7:28pm

bk wrote: »

Yes, I was quiet surprised by that. I assume some excuse that they thought would sound good to non technical people.

The alternative is worse, that the HKC servers are sitting in the back of the HKC office connected by consumer broadband :eek:

Is that a fact or a guess?
Just if it is a fact I am sure the vast majority of Installers in this country would like to know about it.

bk · 16-04-2019 2:41pm

kub wrote: »

Is that a fact or a guess?
Just if it is a fact I am sure the vast majority of Installers in this country would like to know about it.

Oh, definitely not a fact, not at all. I've no inside knowledge.

It is just a guess based on the terrible wording of that email and based on my IT knowledge and years of experience around data centers.

The email said: "including connecting fibre cable throughout Europe"

A small 40 person company certainly isn't connecting fibre cable throughout Europe. Hell even the likes of Google and Facebook don't do that, they all just buy access on existing fibre from big international ISP's.

The mention of fibre is just weird. The correct way to run a service like this is to place your servers a couple of third party (for redundancy) data centers who specialise in this area. Or more likely just use the data centers own hosted servers (cloud services). The data centers would of course be connected by fibre and yes they would upgrade that as demand increases, but it wouldn't really be something they would discuss with small users of the data center, it would be transparently covered under the service level agreements.

The only reason I could think of them mentioning connecting fibre, is if they are running their servers out of the back of their own office and it is currently connected over consumer VDSL/HFC and they are now getting a fibre connection.
I suppose another possibility is that they already have a fibre connection, but no redundancy and so are adding a second, independent fibre connection.

If I was an installer, I'd certainly be asking questions, I'd be asking for a full overview of their infrastructure:

- Where are their servers hosted?
- Are they hosted in redundant locations?
- What level of service level agreements do they have with their suppliers?

Obviously I wouldn't expect them to go into too much detail, but at least find out if they are use professional data centers or not and redundancy, etc.

Drifter50 · 16-04-2019 7:51pm

and on it goes again

Top Security have launched their new APP service

Also they must be planning to tie in with their monitoring centre

I`ll look forward to having a look at this one, going to get to see it Thursday

KoolKid · 16-04-2019 8:49pm

Is that the same as CLSs just giving a key switch type arm /disarm?

kub · 16-04-2019 9:24pm

Drifter50 wrote: »

and on it goes again

Top Security have launched their new APP service

Also they must be planning to tie in with their monitoring centre

I`ll look forward to having a look at this one, going to get to see it Thursday

That will be interesting, there was talk of us being able to access our own digi's and put them on test so no need to ring controllers.

KoolKid · 16-04-2019 9:45pm

If that's all it is they are very late to the party.

Drifter50 · 16-04-2019 10:15pm

They say it is multi panel capable

Siemens, Visonic etc etc

I want to see what deals are on offer it its a tie to their ARC

Eccentric Toast · 24-04-2019 1:49pm

Would anyone be able to recommend a Siemens/SPC installer?

It's a new build with the house prewired but the detached garage is not. Im guessing that means I need a hybrid system. I'm looking for self monitored with an app that can be used to arm/disarm it. Home automation integration would be nice but not a necessity.

It was a battle between HKC and Siemens but from what I've researched I think Siemens was the better choice for me.

vintagecosmos · 24-04-2019 2:50pm

get in touch with Kool Kid on here. He looked after me well.

KoolKid · 02-05-2019 4:49pm

I see the HKC app increase is back on the agenda.
Going for the softly softly approach. To €5.58 from June.

Drifter50 · 02-05-2019 9:14pm

Yes, a letter to all the installers sent out today. Customers won`t like this, its already hard to sell an APP with an annual cost

KoolKid · 02-05-2019 9:45pm

The commission is a joke. Installers get a percentage of the increase.
Its a hard up lad who would be selling this for a percentage of 49c.

After the reaction to the €2 increase 'I imagine this will be more a slippery slope like Nexflix.
I've said it from the start with all these style models. The only way is up.:mad:

Atomic Pineapple · 03-05-2019 12:40pm

Eccentric Toast wrote: »

Would anyone be able to recommend a Siemens/SPC installer?

Have you found anyone?

I've tried 8 places and not one of them do it. 7 of them said they wouldn't do anything other than HKC. 1 mentioned an Agility 3 alarm or something along those lines.

A lot of them said they wouldn't trust the Siemens one as it has to remain in contact with an external server. Is this true?

I'm sure the HKC system is solid but it looks mank, seems outdated, and appears to be pretty costly.

KoolKid · 03-05-2019 1:39pm

Atomic Pineapple wrote: »

A lot of them said they wouldn't trust the Siemens one as it has to remain in contact with an external server. Is this true?

They all remain in contact with an external server. That's how the apps work.
However Siemens Vanderbilt is the only one that let's you bypass this and connect directly to the panel if you so wish.
Sounds like another example of an installer who wants you to buy what he wants not what you want. Shop around.
Where are you located?
If you contact some of your local suppliers they would be able to tell you who is buying! Installing Siemens /Vanderbilt.

Atomic Pineapple · 03-05-2019 4:14pm

KoolKid wrote: »

They all remain in contact with an external server. That's how the apps work.
However Siemens Vanderbilt is the only one that let's you bypass this and connect directly to the panel if you so wish.

Ah I see, thanks for the clarification.

KoolKid wrote: »

Where are you located?

South Meath.

KoolKid wrote: »

If you contact some of your local suppliers they would be able to tell you who is buying! Installing Siemens /Vanderbilt.

Not sure I can even find local suppliers

KoolKid · 03-05-2019 5:39pm

Sent you a PM of a company that should be able to look after you.

RonnieRoz · 07-05-2019 3:01pm

Hi Koolkid, could you please PM someone for a wireless install in Kildare (I have an existing hard wired alarm but is giving off false alarms, 17 years old) so I presume wireless is my only option. Just reading back through the posts you seem to know what you are talking about!

Self monitored with ability to use an app if possible

Thanks!!!

Atomic Pineapple · 14-05-2019 10:03am

Quick question about the Vanderbilt system, I see that there are wireless components available. Is the system capable of hybrid connections. So, the perimeter will be wired but have wireless internal sensors?

KoolKid · 14-05-2019 11:16am

You can. But they don't have wireless shock sensors.

Atomic Pineapple · 14-05-2019 6:48pm

KoolKid wrote: »

You can. But they don't have wireless shock sensors.

That's fine only interested in wireless motion detectors. I doubt they can sync with wireless cameras either? Can't find anything that says they do anyway.

Duit · 23-05-2019 2:33pm

We recently bought a house that doesn't have an alarm. We would be interested in something like that:

- Wireless, perimeter security (in windows with shock sensors)
- Motion detectors (PIR with or without cameras)
- Keypad with the potential to disarm and arm with tags (for cleaners and visitors)
- monitored (via company)
- communication via WIFI and GSM (both)
- panic button
- possibility to connect smoke alarms and other detectors (gas, CO2, etc)
- frequent pooling (your advise is welcome)

What would you recommend? Anything else that might be missing?

Thank you for your support!

KoolKid · 23-05-2019 2:49pm

Of the systems I know GSD would be the one that would best suit all your needs there.
Fast polling leaves HKC out. You only get notified of connection fails after 5 hours or 90 minutes on their premium connection.
GSD can be set as low as 5 minutes but with standard central station monitoring charges you can be contacted within 15 minutes of total comms fails.
Siemens Vanderbilt have very fast polling also but they don't have any wireless shock sensors which you would need for accessible windows and doors.
The rest of your requirements would be standard on all systems really.

Duit · 23-05-2019 2:52pm

KoolKid wrote: »

Of the systems I know GSD would be the one that would best suit all your needs there.
Fast polling leaves HKC out. You only get notified of connection fails after 5 hours or 90 minutes on their premium connection.
GSD can be set as low as 5 minutes but with standard central station monitoring charges you can be contacted within 15 minutes of total comms fails.
Siemens Vanderbilt have very fast polling also but they don't have any wireless shock sensors which you would need for accessible windows and doors.
The rest of your requirements would be standard on all systems really.

Thank you for your quick response Koolkid! I was having a look at GSD and looks cool but I can't find any installer in Dublin. Any recommendation? (PM if required)

KoolKid · 23-05-2019 6:48pm

There are plenty. Contact GSD (01) 524 2691 & they will put you in contact with installers in your area.

Duit · 24-05-2019 10:07am

KoolKid wrote: »

There are plenty. Contact GSD (01) 524 2691 & they will put you in contact with installers in your area.

Brilliant! Will do so! Thank you very much for your support!

vbhagaur · 29-05-2019 6:02pm

Hey guys, i just wanted to get an idea around whats the right amount when it comes to installation of say a HKC or Resco system in a 4 bed terraced house prewired for security system.

The estimate i got are around 1000-1200 euros. This is before 150-200 for GSM kit install separately.
Like discussed here at length for HKC i am being asked to pay 9.99 per month for self monitoring (+8 for the app thats one time so dont mind that) and 12 per month for Resco.

The panel suggested are Resco Lightsys 2 and HKC SW10270.

You guys think these prices are what you expect these to be? Thanks in advance.

KoolKid · 29-05-2019 6:10pm

Those prices are a little confusing. At the moment HKCs pricing is :

SecureComm Service Level
Standard - €4.99 per month (Incl. VAT)
Managed World SIM
Unlimited App control + notifications
SMS control + notifications, fair usage limit 50 messages per month
(* Alarm activations only)
Monitoring to Central Station
(GSM-SC Only)
Loss of connectivity to site detected within 5 hours

Premium - €7.00 per month (Incl. VAT)
Managed World SIM
Unlimited App control + notifications
SMS control + notifications, fair usage limit 100 messages per month
(* Alarm activations only)
Voice dialler notifications
Monitoring to Central Station
(GSM-SC Only)
Loss of connectivity reported to central station
(GSM-SC Only)
Loss of connectivity to site detected within 90 min

Are you getting something extra on the Risco LightSYS?
Their standard app is free to use. Apps free to download also.

vbhagaur · 29-05-2019 6:18pm

I agree 100%, they are confusing.
I am not getting anything else with Risco either, just had 12 euros in case of self monitoring as quoted below. The app is free to use thats for sure...

Option 1 – Self monitoring - This is where we install the GSM onto the system and you
download the app onto your smart phones. This allows you to control and monitor the system
remotely via the app. Also in the event of an activation you will receive notification of a
system activation. You can log in and see where the activation occurred etc. you then decide
how you want to respond to this, whether you turn off and reset or notify someone to check
up.
Costs for this option:
1 x GSM Communicator (supplied and fitted, once off payment) - €100.00 inc vat
1 x GSM Annual Sim Fee - €12 inc vat per month - PAID BY Direct Debit

garo · 31-05-2019 7:07pm

Those monthly charges seema bit high. Have you shopped around?

PS: @Koolkid, I went for a self-install in the end along with some help from a spark for the fused spur. Very happy with the Vanderbilt. It's a class system.

Atomic Pineapple · 17-06-2019 3:35pm

Am I right in reading that the Vanderbilt system needs a hard wired internet connection? It can't work off Wifi?

soSolid · 17-06-2019 3:38pm

I have the LAN connection on mine connected to a wireless bridge which connects to the house wifi and it works fine.

Atomic Pineapple · 17-06-2019 3:44pm

soSolid wrote: »

I have the LAN connection on mine connected to a wireless bridge which connects to the house wifi and it works fine.

Like a TP Link plugged into a wall socket? There are no sockets near where our control panel would go though

soSolid · 17-06-2019 3:49pm

Atomic Pineapple wrote: »

Like a TP Link plugged into a wall socket? There is no sockets near where our control panel would go though

I know there's a wireless module for the SPC but it's for wireless contacts etc and not for wifi connectivity. You could run a long Cat5/6 cable from the panel to somewhere that has a plug and use a TP Link type module there? I'm lucky as I have a 13A socket right beside the panel...

Atomic Pineapple · 17-06-2019 4:01pm

soSolid wrote: »

I know there's a wireless module for the SPC but it's for wireless contacts etc and not for wifi connectivity. You could run a long Cat5/6 cable from the panel to somewhere that has a plug and use a TP Link type module there? I'm lucky as I have a 13A socket right beside the panel...

Yeh, I could, but then I'd be dealing with the missus and her rage every time she comes in and out the door

Will probably need to look at GSD instead as it seems to have WiFi connectivity.

soSolid · 17-06-2019 4:13pm

Atomic Pineapple wrote: »

Yeh, I could, but then I'd be dealing with the missus and her rage every time she comes in and out the door

Will probably need to look at GSD instead as it seems to have WiFi connectivity.

@Koolkid knows more about this than I do

HKC VS Siemens App Discussion Stickey Temp

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