HKC VS Siemens App Discussion Stickey Temp

Stoner

Ok this is the temporary Nest.


I currently have an android phone.

I'm running
Siemens SPC anywhere

and

HKC SecureCo

For the Siemens App.

I have a Sim card installed and I have it connected to a UPC internet connection. The Sim card costs me any time I get a text back from the panel. It costs me about 15- 20 euro a year

I don't count the UPC connection carrying phone/internet traffic as resilience, it is a single point of failure. As I have a sim card and a UPC connection, I have two different routes, not three

On the HKC option I only have a SIM card, the card will pick up the strongest network, if one drops it will move from say Vodafone to three.
I don't count this as resilience either as its is still a single point of failure. I'm told that this panel can have a module fitted to allow it to take in a phone line. This I would count as an alternative route.


The siemens App was free I only pay to keep the sim card active. The app would work over my internet connection. Getting the panel to connect over RJ45 to my router was not simple, I didn't do it but it took a little bit of messing around. I pay for my internet connection, if I already have it so it did not cost me more. I text my panel a lot so I pay about 20 euro a year to keep the SIM juiced up

Installation 2

HKC app, cost 8 euro one off, yearly maintenance cost on the Sim was 87 euro (maybe it was marked up, that it the supplier business and not really up for discussion)


Both apps work well.

The HKC panel could be installed in a house with no internet and its sim will get you going, currently 60-80 euro a year, if you have a phone line in the house some HKC panels can connect to the phone line if you buy a module to do so

As can the Siemens panel, if you buy the module for a sim card and and spend about 10 or 20 euro a year keeping the card alive you could installed it in a house with no internet and just use the sim to text the panel over and back, if you have the internet you could just connect the panel to your router and watch it that way using the app.


So these are the costs, they are there to look at not kill each other over.


Operation

When the Siemens panel activates I get a text. I can use the app to access the panel, but i get the alert by text, as is stands i need to have the sim card for the notification, I can also reactivate the panel over text, or turn it off. The app provides more detail I can see open zones etc, but I get the alert from a text, I pay for each text the panel sends. I can isolate any zone i want using the app, but not by text

On the HKC app, I get alerted by the App and I interact with the App. I dont get charged extra for interaction between the panel and the app.

As it stands I get a log of the activity on the HKC panel, but on this set up I cant see the status of the different zones, I cant seem to isolate a zone or see the status of every zone, maybe I'm using it incorrectly but it does not have the same level of detail on the alarm as the Siemens one does.

Polling,

I need some help here, does either app poll the panel, or the other way around?


As it stands I like the Siemens app as I get the alert via text, if i have no internet connection I can text the panel on or off, I have a little custom app to help, but you can get free text templates that you set up to sent a alarm on or off text.

If I have the internet I can use the app and isolate a troublesome zone and then reset the alarm.

Using the HKC app is simple, but if i keep getting issues with a zone , I don't think i can isolate it and arm the rest of the system like i can with the Siemens app.

I know this is compromising the system. But the alternative is to turn it off ,or go to the panel and isolate the zone at the panel. this is ok if you are near the panel, but not possible if you are not. I may be underselling the HKC app, but I don't think I can isolate a zone using the app. This is very handy if you are not home and want some level of protection.


When i turn off the data function on my phone, the HKC app stops working
So does the the Siemens app.

Having the texting functions each panel has is very handy, as you wont always have the internet


I know I've made mistakes, so feel free to correct me, and we can come up with a guide that users can use and that we can point people towards and we can also use to avoid more arguments over.

KoolKid

There is a free update to the Siemens firmware and app you are running.
From version 3-6-0 on wards you now get email notifications & remote access is now via a cloud. That means there is no more programming on the router. Even if you were to change ISP the panel would reconnect automatically.
On your GSM you could also use your SIM card to provide a data connection to give you remote access via a browser/app. You can also set up your GSM to notify you of network fail (polling) . This can be set right down to seconds if your want..
The only charges on the above would be topping up of your SIM card. I too use this set up and find under €20 a good estimate also.
Another benefit of the Siemens is you have browser access. If you find yourself without a data connection you can login to SPC Connect from any web browser and any PC. Once logged in you can arm/disarm the system etc. If you wish to do more in-dept work on your system this page can redirect you directly to your panels server. I like this as a feature, because the panel has its own server you know there can never be a charge enforced to connect to your system. Siemens apps are free also.
The newer app to SPC Anywhere is Called SPC Connect. Feature wise its much the same, but the configuration of this is easier also as you are just logging into SPC Connect so no settings like ports,site IDs or IP addresses.

PS as there are many panels now offering free apps & remote access over IP could we include all or have a few separate threads?

Stoner

Include all I'd say

2011

Excellent opening post Stoner, very detailed and well explained!
Very few people have first hand experience with both systems.

It is great to get an unbiased opinion of HKC and Siemens offerings.

In summary it would seem that the differences are not significant.

However the importance of acknowledging a single point of failure for both systems can not be overstated.

My only question can the Siemens system poll?

Evolution1

Not at the moment.
You can bypass zones on the HKC app. When you go to arm via the app it will announce eg,
"Zone 3 back door open". You will be prompted to inhibit the zone or cancel. Your installer would have to set" Force Arming to yes " in the arming opt menu for this to show in the app.

KoolKid

2011 wrote: »

My only question can the Siemens system poll?

Yes with the new SPC Connect the panel is polling the server at an interval that can be set by the installer.
if you have another comms path you can get notification of a network failure.
GSD also now have this feature.

KoolKid

The Risco range of panels also have IP capability with APP & browser access.
The Risco app is called iRisco
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.homeguard&hl=en
https://itunes.apple.com/ie/app/irisco/id462155789?mt=8
Like Siemens the Risco Apps are free & use of the cloud server is free.
Also like Siemens you have the ability to connect from any web browser should you be somewhere without a data connection on your phone.
Notifications are sent via push notifications to the app . You can also set up email alerts.

KoolKid

The GSD i70 systems can also be IP enabled for remote access. With GSD this connection can be via a LAN card or a WiFi card.
With GSD Apps, remote access and alerts are free.
Once set up you get free push notifications direct to your phone. At the moment GSD does not have browser access or email alerts.
The GSD system does have polling at a time set on the app, you will get notifications of any network fails after the set time.
GSD also can alert of smash & grab style attacks attacks. If, after an entry time start or an alarm activation , the connection to the server is lost, you will get a notification to your phone. As this is sent from their servers once a burglar gains entry he has no means of preventing notifications being sent.

Evolution1

KoolKid wrote: »

Yes with the new SPC Connect the panel is polling the server at an interval that can be set by the installer.
if you have another comms path you can get notification of a network failure.
GSD also now have this feature.

Ok fair enough but will you be notified if all comms paths are down ?

KoolKid

No notifications but it will show on the app.
For this feature GSD is the best IMO.

Evolution1

Ok handy to know.

Diggerdunne

i was talking to an installer the other day and he said that the siemens doesn't Poll and will only poll when the next update is released next month. He said he thinks the Beta version has polling in it but its not for general use until the release. Is this true?

KoolKid

3.6.5 is a full release and is available.
This is released. It is not test software.

altor

Just a few things to add and a quick question about your post Stoner.

The App for the HKC has a virtual keypad so anything you can do from the keypad you can do on the virtual keypad on the App.

If a zone is open and you set the system using the virtual keypad the zone will show open on the keypad App.
To inhibit you would do the same as if you are using the keypad 0 code * 5 (zone number) yes.

If using the arming templet the app will list the zone or zones open and ask if you want to continue arming.
This will set the system with the open zone or zones taken out of the system.

The HKC system polls using the connection to Securecomm, this will be notified to your App.

The GSM-SC when you turn off the Data on your phone can be set up to send you a text, I have mine set up to do both notification plus text.
It is a good option as people out of Data coverage or people on holidays abroad may not have the data connection turned on on there phone.
It is also handy as some people do not have smart phones so they can be set up to receive the text alerts while others use the App.

This is using the same unit so no need to buy a separate GSM.

Adding the Wifi card gives a back up to the GSM-SC.
Using the Wifi card will also allow the same functions as using the GSM-SC.

You say you have a GSM installed which uses €10-€20 per year.
Is this using GPRS or just for sending text messages?

altor

2011 wrote: »

My only question can the Siemens system poll?

The system does not poll.

altor

Evolution1 wrote: »

Ok fair enough but will you be notified if all comms paths are down ?

You wont get any notifications if all paths are down.

altor

Diggerdunne wrote: »

i was talking to an installer the other day and he said that the siemens doesn't Poll and will only poll when the next update is released next month. He said he thinks the Beta version has polling in it but its not for general use until the release. Is this true?

It is on the way but as yet it is not released.

soSolid

@Koolkid I'm running 3.6.0 - what's new in 3.6.5?

KoolKid

Nothing that noticeable. But as a rule I'd always update to the latest stable release.

soSolid

Cheers, have you a link to it?

KoolKid

I have PMed you that.
If you need any help give me a shout.

soSolid

Got that, all done now! Cheers.

Stoner

altor wrote: »

The system does not poll.

Ok I've had a look at this, I'm not 100% but it appears as if there is a new service, not beta for the Siemens panel that allows polling.

Are you sure Altor that the new available software does not allow polling.

Is new firmware 3-6-0 & 3-6-5 released and available with polling?

Koolkid is this beta or is it actually available.

I assume that updating firmware is something a licensed installer would need to do.

Stoner

altor wrote: »

The App for the HKC has a virtual keypad so anything you can do from the keypad you can do on the virtual keypad on the App.

If a zone is open and you set the system using the virtual keypad the zone will show open on the keypad App.
To inhibit you would do the same as if you are using the keypad 0 code * 5 (zone number) yes.

That is true and that was pointed out to me, however that is handy, its written on the door or the actual RKP too, it is good but not as good as the i/o list the siemens app shows you, on that i can see all the zones on my system and interface with them.

this does close the gap aright, but its still something you have to know/remember and its not the same as a zone list at your fingertips, but it would certainly save you a trip.

altor wrote: »

You say you have a GSM installed which uses €10-€20 per year.
Is this using GPRS or just for sending text messages?

I just use it for texting, I also have the panel hooked up to my router

Stoner

KoolKid wrote: »

3.6.5 is a full release and is available.
This is released. It is not test software.

Great stuff, so is there a set of release notes that state it can poll now.


Also if I upgrade will i lose the use of my X10 units.

The whole reason I got the siemens (or Europlex panel as it was then was to use x10 for my lights and heating?

I think I'll forget about polling if I have to change all my X10 units to Siemens switches.

altor

Stoner wrote: »

Ok I've had a look at this, I'm not 100% but it appears as if there is a new service, not beta for the Siemens panel that allows polling.

Are you sure Altor that the new available software does not allow polling.

Is new firmware 3-6-0 & 3-6-5 released and available with polling?

Koolkid is this beta or is it actually available.

I assume that updating firmware is something a licensed installer would need to do.

The system does not poll. Only way of knowing it is down is if you can not get into your App or browser.

Like yourself you need a second device attached to the system to know of alarm activation's.

3-6-0 was the beta version, any bugs were updated in version 3-6-5 which is the latest software.

If you have access to your system and these files which are available on here by request then you can update your system with the latest software.

Stoner

Evolution1 wrote: »

When you go to arm via the app it will announce eg,
"Zone 3 back door open". You will be prompted to inhibit the zone or cancel. Your installer would have to set" Force Arming to yes " in the arming opt menu for this to show in the app.

really I dont get that, i just get the alert to say that there is an issue,

ie. "Tamper Zone Back door open"

I get no invitation to engage with the panel, maybe it is in the set up

altor

Stoner wrote: »

That is true and that was pointed out to me, however that is handy, its written on the door or the actual RKP too, it is good but not as good as the i/o list the siemens app shows you, on that i can see all the zones on my system and interface with them.

this does close the gap aright, but its still something you have to know/remember and its not the same as a zone list at your fingertips, but it would certainly save you a trip.

The difference is rather than going through the list to see the state of the zones the system will announce to you the open zones and ask if you want to continue arming.

There are differences tho.

Stoner wrote: »

I just use it for texting, I also have the panel hooked up to my router

The HKC system can have a GSM-Q added to do the same for the same price as you have stated.

GSM-SC will do Data connection plus these text functions.

altor

Stoner wrote: »

really I dont get that, i just get the alert to say that there is an issue,

ie. "Tamper Zone Basck door open"

I get no invitation to engage with the panel, maybe it is in the set up

That is correct, the installer never set up these options for you.

Stoner

altor wrote: »

The difference is rather than going through the list to see the state of the zones the system will announce to you the open zones and ask if you want to continue arming.
There are differences tho.

Fair enough

I've just tested it.

Yes I still in work!

It seems that the prompt comes when you go to reset the alarm, so i can deactivate it remotely and when i go to activate it again i get the prompt.

On the siemens app, I don't get that prompt, but i do get a look at the state of all the zones, So I'd press zones, see which ones are active (handy) and turn them off.

So on HKC that is fine if the zone is still open when you are resetting, but if it was an intermittent fault that was gone when I was resetting I would not get the prompt. Then I'd have to inhibit.

Not the end of the world, down to splitting hairs territory at this stage.

My own most common activation is a window left open and the inertia setting off by the blind.

KoolKid

Stoner wrote: »

Great stuff, so is there a set of release notes that state it can poll now.


Also if I upgrade will i lose the use of my X10 units.

The whole reason I got the siemens (or Europlex panel as it was then was to use x10 for my lights and heating?

I think I'll forget about polling if I have to change all my X10 units to Siemens switches.

Hi Stoner
There have been 3 releases of the 3-6_* firmware. There was an original beta 3-6-0 this was followed by a release version which was followed by 3-6-5.
There is a further release due shortly. All these versions poll and will give notifications down a different path if one is available. If you log into the app it will also show you instantly at any time if the panel is off line.
As this thread is now about all IP systems I would like to take this opportunity to state, if this is is a major requirement for anyone GSD i70 have the best notification system here where they can notify you of network down or suspected smash and grap alerts without the requirement of a second comms path.
As for your X10. This is still supported with all the usual features like cause and effect, calendars etc...
I have multiple X10 devices running well on my 5320 along with regular polling backed up by GSM and PSTN.

Stoner

Thanks Koolkid,

So yes the Siemens service will poll, your panel will poll a cloud service.

If you go into your app you will see that it is down.

But the app will not notify you, you would need another path for that.

So this is polling, polling the cloud however it would be better if the cloud shot a notification to your phone no?

I assume that's on the way

KoolKid

All correct..Not sure if it's on the way with Siemens or not. However it is already a feature on the GSD free service.
I will enquire re the future Siemens features and come back to you if I can.

KoolKid

Stoner wrote: »

I just use it for texting, I also have the panel hooked up to my router

I have mine set up for text and data. It makes little or no difference to cost. The data transfer is very little.

altor

Stoner wrote: »

So yes the Siemens service will poll

The system does not poll.

You are relying on another path to get notifications.

KoolKid

You are confusing polling and notifications. They are 2 different things. The panel polls the SPC Connect server and can notify via another path if the IP /Network connection is lost.

altor

KoolKid wrote: »

You are confusing polling and notifications. They are 2 different things. The panel polls the SPC Connect server and can notify via another path if the IP /Network connection is lost.

If you only have an IP connection (router) to your panel do you get a notification to say its down?

KoolKid

This has been answered above already. This does not constitute polling. The Siemens Panel does poll and can notify of an IP network fail on any other path that is available. As I said above. If people are concerned about this the best option IMO is GSD which offers notifications on network alerts as well as smash and grap alerts even on a single path fail.

Stoner

OK to out this to bed, let's be blunt.

the Siemens system does carry out a polling service.

to be blunt about it, it's not great. The Siemens cloud service should let you know that its down as it is aware because it talks to the panel. Its not great that there is a service that knows there is an issue but only tells you if you if you ask it.

it sounds like a very simple fix if you ask me. It should be available. Possibly it is something that you would need a subscription for.

So the Siemens system Polls. You might need another path to tell you information it gathered from a polling process.
There are other panels that do it better, including GSD and HKC.

So that's it with respect to polling and notifications two different things.

deandean

All was great until Eircom upgraded my Modem. My bandwidth went from 3Mb to 40Mb .

But now the Siemens SPCanywhere app won't connect through to the SPC5300 alarm panel.

If I enter the panel serial number on the spcsecure site, I get to the Login page of the new MODEM.

So I guess that some type of a pass-through is needed for the Modem?

I tried creating a new 'access control rule' in the Modem with Source as the router and Destination as the panel, but no joy - and I'm not too sure what I'm doing there.

Any help would be greatly appreciated. I've been at this for over a week.

altor

deandean wrote: »

All was great until Eircom upgraded my Modem. My bandwidth went from 3Mb to 40Mb .

But now the Siemens SPCanywhere app won't connect through to the SPC5300 alarm panel.

If I enter the panel serial number on the spcsecure site, I get to the Login page of the new MODEM.

So I guess that some type of a pass-through is needed for the Modem?

I tried creating a new 'access control rule' in the Modem with Source as the router and Destination as the panel, but no joy - and I'm not too sure what I'm doing there.

Any help would be greatly appreciated. I've been at this for over a week.

Have you set up the ports?
Another option would be to update the system to the latest version, this was you would not need to set this up.

KoolKid

Port 443 needs to be port forwarded to your panels internal IP address.(Providing you havn't set up the service on a different port)
You will get some great information on how to do this on an router here

If you upgrade to version 3-6-0 & then to 3-6-5 you no longer use Spc Anywhere or SPC Secure
The new app is SPC Connect
https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/spc-connect/id948318844?mt=8
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.siemens.spcconnect&hl=en
And the new portal /cloud is www.spcconnect.com
If you need any help upgrading give us a shout.
Even if you upgrade I would still recommend setting up the port forwarding. It allows you direct connection to your panel no matter what.

golu

KoolKid wrote: »

Even if you upgrade I would still recommend setting up the port forwarding. It allows you direct connection to your panel no matter what.

It is strongly recommended to NOT setup port forwarding to the panel, due to the very poor SSL3 encryption Siemens still is using.

KoolKid

That's sorted in the next update. Due shortly.

altor

golu wrote: »

It is strongly recommended to NOT setup port forwarding to the panel, due to the very poor SSL3 encryption Siemens still is using.

Is there a security risk using this?

golu

Yes. The POODLE vulnerability, known since October 2014, is a weakness in version 3 of the SSL protocol that allows an attacker in a man-in-the-middle context to decipher the plain text content of an SSLv3 encrypted message.

That's why all modern webbrowsers have now disabled SSL3 by default.

For more info please google POODLE SSL3.

KoolKid

With 3-6-0 and after updates everything is through the cloud anyway. Most browsers block older versions connecting. I have discussed this with Siemens and the next release addresses it.
Really surprised you had not heard of this.

golu

KoolKid wrote: »

With 3-6-0 and after updates everything is through the cloud anyway. Most browsers block older versions connecting. I have discussed this with Siemens and the next release addresses it.
Really surprised you had not heard of this.

I agree that the new FlexC protocol used between panel and SPC Connect Cloud is a very secure communication solution (I have even started to implement it in my own SPC gateway) , but the issue was that you recommended port forwarding, that is a vulnerability risc until Siemens have updated the SSL protocol.

KoolKid

I recommend it generally as an option as it always gives you a direct connection to your panel. In the event of a portal being down etc.
I agree if people have concerns forwarding can be disabled for the time being.

altor

golu wrote: »

Yes. The POODLE vulnerability, known since October 2014, is a weakness in version 3 of the SSL protocol that allows an attacker in a man-in-the-middle context to decipher the plain text content of an SSLv3 encrypted message.

That's why all modern webbrowsers have now disabled SSL3 by default.

For more info please google POODLE SSL3.

Thanks golu

Thommy2

Just installed and configured a secondhand Siemens SPC4320 system (happily surprised about the large number of possibilities in configurations and settings) and also struggeling to get the APP-functionality working (SPCanywhere?).

Read the previous discussion and understand that I have to upgrade the firmware?

"If you upgrade to version 3-6-0 & then to 3-6-5 you no longer use Spc Anywhere or SPC Secure. The new app is SPC Connect"

Can somebody please give some more information on how to upgrade / where can I get the new firmware?

Many thanks!