Media: Rents at all-time high, supply all-time low - RTE

jamesthepeach · 24-08-2017 1:19pm

BillyBobBS wrote: »

Haha. What absolute tripe. I wouldn't vote SF or the left in a fit but how you can blame the present situation on them when they've never had a sniff of government is laughable. The policy of the present and previous government is the reason we are at this moment. It is now starting to effect companies wanting to set up in Ireland as the living spaces for their potential employees just isn't there. I know of two different cases of companies based in the UK who have decided against Ireland because of that reason alone.

I have rented out an apartment to a company who have put one of their workers in it. When that worker is finished they will put the next worker in it.
Companies are either buying apartments/houses themselves and then putting their staff into them free or renting them to their staff.
A lot are doing this though the likes of Airbnb too.
Companies will always find a way.

BillyBobBS · 24-08-2017 1:22pm

bluedex wrote: »

Yep, a complete mugs game for private landlords. Some of the solutions to alleviate the problem are so obvious that you have to assume the powers that be either:
1. don't want to solve it (not enough anyway) or,
2. are completely stupid.

They don't want to solve it and i don't believe for a second they are stupid. This is by design but they have underestimated the scale of the problem which is now so big that even if we perform a miracle and build 20k units a year for the next 10 years will not be solved.

Wheeliebin30 · 24-08-2017 1:41pm

BillyBobBS wrote: »

Haha. What absolute tripe. I wouldn't vote SF or the left in a fit but how you can blame the present situation on them when they've never had a sniff of government is laughable. The policy of the present and previous government is the reason we are at this moment. It is now starting to effect companies wanting to set up in Ireland as the living spaces for their potential employees just isn't there. I know of two different cases of companies based in the UK who have decided against Ireland because of that reason alone.

Oh really yeah what 2 companies where these?

The councils have been given open cheque books to build houses. The government have said this.

But the councils would rather focus on cutting property tax thus reducing funds available for homelessness and making sure the Palestinian flag is flying before allowing massive scale building which is needed.

Everyday they block developments over something ridiculous.

quadrifoglio verde · 24-08-2017 2:19pm

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Oh really yeah what 2 companies where these?

The councils have been given open cheque books to build houses. The government have said this.

But the councils would rather focus on cutting property tax thus reducing funds available for homelessness and making sure the Palestinian flag is flying before allowing massive scale building which is needed.

Everyday they block developments over something ridiculous.

The councils have been given open chequebooks but instead of buying land and developing it, they're buying houses and using it now. Long term it increases overall supply but does nothing now except send prices higher

Also 30 years ago, a council built a 50 house estate and they'd put in 50 families on the housing list. Now they can only put in 10. However rif they actually built, it'd increase overall supply now and not way down the line

The_Conductor · 24-08-2017 2:24pm

Henbabani wrote: »

In Ireland if only the housband working and earn for example 60K you can get tax refund because your wife doesn't working. in Israel there isn't such a thing, you pay the tax depends on what you earn no matter if the women working or not.

You might like to read up on tax individualisation in Ireland.
Here is a newspaper report on it- which highlights the additional tax a one income family pays: http://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/latest-news/stayathome-parents-suffer-in-tax-system-30653360.html

Once upon a time (up to 1999 in fact)- there were specific tax credits for children in Ireland (you still have them in Israel). We abolished them- in favour of a system where both spouses were seen as equals under the tax code. If a spouse stays at home- there is no right to transfer tax credits or standard rate cut-off points to partner who goes out to work..........

There are 3 different ways to have your tax assessed- and which one you choose may result in a refund of tax paid at the end of the tax year (for example- if one partner exhausts their lower tax threshold, but the other doesn't- and more tax was paid than would have been the case, was there a joint assessment). Its still not a transfer of credits or allowances though!

Some Information from Citizens Advice Bureau detailing this here

BillyBobBS · 24-08-2017 2:42pm

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Oh really yeah what 2 companies where these?

The councils have been given open cheque books to build houses. The government have said this.

But the councils would rather focus on cutting property tax thus reducing funds available for homelessness and making sure the Palestinian flag is flying before allowing massive scale building which is needed.

Everyday they block developments over something ridiculous.

Care to provide proof of that "open cheque book"?

bluedex · 24-08-2017 3:24pm

http://www.thejournal.ie/threshold-landlord-rent-3562441-Aug2017/

Another media article about Threshold comments, explaining how the landlords are the problem .... sigh...

The_Conductor · 24-08-2017 3:54pm

bluedex wrote: »

http://www.thejournal.ie/threshold-landlord-rent-3562441-Aug2017/

Another media article about Threshold comments, explaining how the landlords are the problem .... sigh...

Ironically- this is the very next article that is served when you read that one:

The number of rental properties in Ireland is at its lowest in recorded history..........

Askthe EA · 24-08-2017 7:53pm

The amount of people here who hold the REITs up as beacons of professional landlords is astounding. Sure, they tend to be good quality and well maintained. There's a major flaw though. Generally, REITs have no interest in houses. It's blocks of apartments. Individual units are too expensive to manage for them.

So, if as it seems, the govt are hell bent on driving small time landlords out of the market, we can say goodbye to renting houses.

The_Conductor · 24-08-2017 8:09pm

Askthe EA wrote: »

The amount of people here who hold the REITs up as beacons of professional landlords is astounding. Sure, they tend to be good quality and well maintained. There's a major flaw though. Generally, REITs have no interest in houses. It's blocks of apartments. Individual units are too expensive to manage for them.

So, if as it seems, the govt are hell bent on driving small time landlords out of the market, we can say goodbye to renting houses.

Very valid point- and one which many of us- myself included, have overlooked.

Browney7 · 24-08-2017 8:42pm

Askthe EA wrote: »

The amount of people here who hold the REITs up as beacons of professional landlords is astounding. Sure, they tend to be good quality and well maintained. There's a major flaw though. Generally, REITs have no interest in houses. It's blocks of apartments. Individual units are too expensive to manage for them.

So, if as it seems, the govt are hell bent on driving small time landlords out of the market, we can say goodbye to renting houses.

But if renting out property is as dangerous and rife with tenants out to screw landlords as is made out here why do landlords continue to rent out houses worth 400k to 500k for sub 5% yields? Why not realise the value that's built up in the property?

Askthe EA · 24-08-2017 9:11pm

Browney7 wrote: »

But if renting out property is as dangerous and rife with tenants out to screw landlords as is made out here why do landlords continue to rent out houses worth 400k to 500k for sub 5% yields? Why not realise the value that's built up in the property?

Depends what they owe on the property. Depends if they need it as a pension. Depends if they want something to pass on to their child. Many reasons.

Browney7 · 24-08-2017 9:24pm

Askthe EA wrote: »

Depends what they owe on the property. Depends if they need it as a pension. Depends if they want something to pass on to their child. Many reasons.

Suppose so. I just don't see the logic in it especially if you have any way significant positive equity in the property. Why not liquidate the house and if you are still happy with exposure to Irish residential property, reinvest in a reasonably new apartment for a higher yield. Suppose people could have trackers they want to keep though but I doubt anyone now would buy a house with a view to rent it for 20 years

jamesthepeach · 24-08-2017 9:31pm

Browney7 wrote: »

Suppose so. I just don't see the logic in it especially if you have any way significant positive equity in the property. Why not liquidate the house and if you are still happy with exposure to Irish residential property, reinvest in a reasonably new apartment for a higher yield. Suppose people could have trackers they want to keep though but I doubt anyone now would buy a house with a view to rent it for 20 years

It's happening now...risk/reward has tipped over too heavily into the risk side. People are selling up. I guess a lot were waiting to see if the govt might row back and let them charge market rates where they were locked below market rate, but it's eat now the govt are happy to crucify landlords.

So people selling up, and as you said, Noone buying houses or apartments for rental on the horizon now. Even the REITs are cool on Ireland now.

Askthe EA · 24-08-2017 9:39pm

jamesthepeach wrote: »

It's happening now...risk/reward has tipped over too heavily into the risk side.

Indeed.

maninasia · 25-08-2017 3:16pm

Macha wrote: »

maninasia wrote: »

Medium to high rise the answer.
The current situation is a disaster and the capital city needs more homes now. Apartments are just fine for families and single. Billions of people around the world live in apartments!

I'm all for apartment living but does it really have to be high rise? This is what high rise looks like:

I think medium/low rise is most appropriate for a medium-sized city like Dublin:

I live in a high rise with 24 hour security and great views over city and mountains. Garbage collectiin and indoor parking too.
Great sunlight. I pay just 800 euro a month everything included for a 3bd apt.

The population in many cities make high rise a natural choice. Within 5 mins walk I have access to a brilliant metro system and there are a rake of convenicence stores and restaurants nearby. Kids can walk to school.
I've previous lived in high rises with gyms and swimming pools too. I've also lived in some run down mid rise older apartment buildings and the modern high rise service apartments can be miles better!

Yeah I'd like a house with a garden . I could get that living an hour out of the city. I'd pay double for the privilege and have to be concerned with services and security and a long commute. So I'm just fine with the compromise.

Medium rise is a good choice too, but high rise can also be just fine.

maninasia · 25-08-2017 3:20pm

I forgot to mention.
Because planning laws are lax and there are less restrictions on height there are tonnes of apartments available and rents are very reasonable. Don't like a place, just look for the next one.
The housing market functions just mine as the government doesn't interfere that much, just let's developers and tenants get on with things.

Idbatterim · 25-08-2017 3:34pm

the cost of apartment building in general is way too prohibitive. This needs addressing! Of course the government are actually delighted with the rocketing prices. The central bank should refuse to budge again on lending rules. Make the government act. the central bank can force their hand and make them look at the ridiculous government and local authority take on a new home, without even going into build costs, which they also should, at least on the apartment front!!!

There was endless marches against water charges, that would have cost a family what? E1 a day. Yet we sit behind keyboards ranting about this scandal on an epic scale!

Idbatterim · 25-08-2017 3:37pm

It should be mid-rise and low-rise good quality, decent sized blocks of apartments with good communal facilities.

why shouldnt it be high rise in appropriate locations like the docklands? your hardly going to get the ballymum brigade in there wrecking the place, are you?

The_Conductor · 25-08-2017 3:39pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

the cost of apartment building in general is way too prohibitive. This needs addressing! Of course the government are actually delighted with the rocketing prices. The central bank should refuse to budge again on lending rules. Make the government act. the central bank can force their hand and make them look at the ridiculous government and local authority take on a new home, without even going into build costs, which they also should, at least on the apartment front!!!

There was endless marches against water charges, that would have cost a family what? E1 a day. Yet we sit behind keyboards ranting about this scandal!

The proposal- given the implementation of the HTB scheme without any consultation with the Central Bank- is to remove the favourable deposit requirements for FTBs- and put them on a level pegging with any other buyer.

Review took place earlier this summer- and is to be presented at the autumn meeting of the board (in just a few weeks).

Unless there is some sort of coordination with government- it would appear the favourable (10% deposit) requirement- could be abolished in favour of putting the first time buyers on a level pegging with non-first-time-buyers.

Investors aren't really featuring anymore- though they do still make up a significant but minority proportion (and falling) of the constrained market.

Idbatterim · 25-08-2017 3:45pm

to the conductor. Would you agree that the word prohibitive is the key issue? Prohibite construction costs and prohibitive density particular in dublin. The idiots in government can waffle all they like. These are the two elephants in the room...

Browney7 · 25-08-2017 3:53pm

The_Conductor wrote: »

The proposal- given the implementation of the HTB scheme without any consultation with the Central Bank- is to remove the favourable deposit requirements for FTBs- and put them on a level pegging with any other buyer.

Review took place earlier this summer- and is to be presented at the autumn meeting of the board (in just a few weeks).

Unless there is some sort of coordination with government- it would appear the favourable (10% deposit) requirement- could be abolished in favour of putting the first time buyers on a level pegging with non-first-time-buyers.

Investors aren't really featuring anymore- though they do still make up a significant but minority proportion (and falling) of the constrained market.

20% flat or similar to pre 2017 with 10% on the first 220k and 20% thereafter?

Interesting to see what effect that would have. Would probably take at least half of FTBs out of the market at a stroke of a pen as they may have been ready to take the plunge at having a 10% deposit saved. Don't know if it will bring house prices down though as sellers would see what they went for when the market was manic in 2017 and hold out for the price they've anchored in their minds. Could get a further bounce in prices if they give any lead in period for the introduction.

Anticipate the meeja will be rife with stories of people forking out more than a mortgage payment a month but being miles off a 20% deposit and FF politicians lambasting the situation. Developers will say they can't build as they'll have no market to sell to. Can't win!

maninasia · 25-08-2017 3:55pm

I'd love to move the family back to Ireland and give it a shot.

But my God does Ireland make it it difficult.

Can find a place to live but no jobs.
Can get a job but no places to live.

Both make it very difficult to save money and for me to deal with the risk of moving my family around the world.

I reckon if I could get a job outside Dublin I might do it but Dublin sounds screwed completely.
Even UK or mainland Europe sounds easier.

This coming from a native Dubliner!

LirW · 25-08-2017 3:57pm

maninasia wrote: »

I'd love to move the family back to Ireland and give it a shot.

But my God does Ireland make it it difficult.

Can find a place to live but no jobs.
Can get a job but no places to live.

Both make it very difficult to save money and for me to deal with the risk of moving my family around the world.

I reckon if I could get a job outside Dublin I might do it but Dublin sounds screwed completely.
Even UK or mainland Europe sounds easier.

This coming from a native Dubliner!

Also your welcome home car insurance quote will blow your socks off :pac:

maninasia · 25-08-2017 4:03pm

I pay 10% tax on a very decent income. I pay just half the average Dublin family apartment rent and yet live in a metropolis.. Most other costs are cheaper too. My landlord never bothers us , once a year we sign the contract and get on with it. If I need to move I can find 1000s of places listed throughout the city. Take my pick.
Life is easy. Life is comfortable. We are saving good money on just one income!
And yet...family...Ireland calls.

The car insurance , the petrol costs, health insurance , tolls, tax are all more expensive in Ireland. The only significantly cheaper stuff are groceries. Food costs in Ireland are low for high quality food!

Okay the wife would hopefully earn more bucks in Ireland at least.

But, I LITERALLY would need my head examined to even contemplate moving back to Ireland and yet .....

....and yet feck it wife get out there and sort us out for the double income we'll be grand I will drink a bottle of whiskey while going through my tax affairs!

The_Conductor · 25-08-2017 4:23pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

to the conductor. Would you agree that the word prohibitive is the key issue? Prohibite construction costs and prohibitive density particular in dublin. The idiots in government can waffle all they like. These are the two elephants in the room...

Yes- those two are key issues- our construction costs- when viewed in an international context are indefensible, and then we have stupid rules like the height restrictions in Dublin- and elsewhere- where people actually want to live.

There is also the blanket one size fits all approach being taken to renting property- where there is no cognisance of executive lets, unfurnished accommodation, tax treatment, etc etc

The regulatory regime- both in the letting market- and in the construction market- is onerous and rife with redtape. Also- it appears various local authorities don't talk to one another- or the Department. The safety switch- which we shouldn't have to flick too often- is An Bord Pleanála. Even so- we occasionally get such monstrosities as the planning permission that Kildare Co. Co. granted at Sallins- which the Minister decided to exercise his powers in quashing.

The underlying problem- feeding into all of this- is our historical parish pump politics- there is no-one looking at the bigger picture- and what is best of Ireland Inc- its all county level stuff- or worse. Our first-past-the-post electoral system feeds into all of this...........

We've a lot of issues- costs and planning restrictions- are two items- but we have a lot of fundamental issues which we trip ourselves up on on a daily basis.

maninasia · 25-08-2017 4:29pm

I fully agree the main issues are the construction costs and the height restrictions.
The only other one is the stick which would be taxing idle land in some form.

There are simply far from enough properties to live in for the population.

Supply, supply, supply.

There's a whole lot of other stuff in the background but those three are what is killing the supply and they should be tackled head on.

Now one must note that all three are directly the result of government policies. Failed policies and failed government.

I don't think parish pump or local politics is the problem. Most local politicians anywhere love construction and love development for obvious reasons . The blame should be put squarely on the national government and poor city planners and managers. These guys have to get their hands dirty and rejoin the real world at some point.

The latest report has just 3000 properties listed for rent IN THE ENTIRE COUNTRY.

Idbatterim · 25-08-2017 4:58pm

I would highly recommend a watch of this australian documentary on property! Might aswell be Ireland they are reporting on! very informative!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XL3n59wC8kk

Dr_Kolossus · 25-08-2017 6:03pm

The_Conductor wrote: »

Petrol - Israel = EUR1.44/litre , Ireland = EUR1.35
Diesel - Israel = EUR1.32/litre , Ireland = EUR 1.22

As for food, clothing and sundry goods- Ireland is around 10% cheaper- however- this is way offset by 60% higher healthcare costs in Ireland, and over 250% higher prescription charges in Ireland- than in Israel
You win some, you loose some- Ireland is a bit cheaper for some things- significantly more expensive esp. for anything health related.

You have picked out only one aspect of the many costs of driving. Motor tax, periodic nct, vrt and more all subsidise the relatively low cost on fuel here in Ireland. I stand to be corrected, but I doubt that overall the cost of motoring in Ireland is cheaper than Israel.

Ireland is the land of stealth taxes. Move here and you will be in for a shock

maninasia · 27-08-2017 1:09am

I missed probably the most important current reason for lack of construction.and therefore lack of supply.

The capital gains tax exemption which runs to 2019 and has been extended in some cases to 2024.

The government has been driving this ridiculous run up in price by strongly encouraging developers to sit on their arse and do absolutely Nothing while the value of their assets increase yearly and they wait for pay day, whats another two or five years .

Media: Rents at all-time high, supply all-time low - RTE

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