Media: Rents at all-time high, supply all-time low - RTE

davindub

maninasia wrote: »

I missed probably the most important current reason for lack of construction.and therefore lack of supply.

The capital gains tax exemption which runs to 2019 and has been extended in some cases to 2024.

The government has been driving this ridiculous run up in price by strongly encouraging developers to sit on their arse and do absolutely Nothing while the value of their assets increase yearly and they wait for pay day, whats another two or five years .

Interest to know why the government is enabling this.

Also there was a tax on land previously zoned as agri converted to development land, it was 80%, it was removed last year, the government implemented the de-ruralification policy and quashed plans to tax undeveloped land.

Ray Palmer

There is actually a quick affordable way to alleviate some of the problems and help other issues. Dublin suburbs are full of under used properties. We also have an issue with nursing homes and care workers. It would be easy enough to convert some of the houses for elderly people to downsize to and stay in their own communities. Freeing up well serviced family homes close to employment.

They did a bad job when they suggested this before but things have moved on and it could be done very well. The fact we have houses converted in creches, doctors offices etc... shows use of housing can easily change and expanded.

Most of the houses I live near have 1 or 2 occupants that use one bedroom but live in 3 beds with 2 reception rooms with garages. That is easily 1 two bed and 1 one bed spacious accommodation. A bit more work and it is a 2 bed and a 3 bed by extending over the garage and into the attic.

A fraction of the cost of building full new housing. Less cost expanding services as there is capacity in the areas.

Ray Palmer

Ray Palmer wrote: »

There is actually a quick affordable way to alleviate some of the problems and help other issues. Dublin suburbs are full of under used properties. We also have an issue with nursing homes and care workers. It would be easy enough to convert some of the houses for elderly people to downsize to and stay in their own communities. Freeing up well serviced family homes close to employment.

They did a bad job when they suggested this before but things have moved on and it could be done very well. The fact we have houses converted in creches, doctors offices etc... shows use of housing can easily change and expanded.

Most of the houses I live near have 1 or 2 occupants that use one bedroom but live in 3 beds with 2 reception rooms with garages. That is easily 1 two bed and 1 one bed spacious accommodation. A bit more work and it is a 2 bed and a 3 bed by extending over the garage and into the attic.

A fraction of the cost of building full new housing. Less cost expanding services as there is capacity in the areas.

The vast majority don't want to leave their homes though and rightly so. These are the homes they have spent decades living in and are much more than just a house. They also may well have regular over night visits from family etc.

Aside from all that people like space, two of us in a 3 bedroomed house and to be honest it's too small for me, I'd be looking at a far far bigger house for my long term home.

Ray Palmer

Ali Tart Graphics wrote: »

The vast majority don't want to leave their homes though and rightly so. These are the homes they have spent decades living in and are much more than just a house. They also may well have regular over night visits from family etc.

Aside from all that people like space, two of us in a 3 bedroomed house and to be honest it's too small for me, I'd be looking at a far far bigger house for my long term home.

There are a lot of elderly people struggle to maintain their homes as is and have fixed incomes. They can also do this to move to get their own family to move it giving them extra benefits of having family close.

It won't be for everybody but enough to have an impact and could revitalise areas. People are talking about sustainable developments when we can make older areas more sustainable and mixed use.

We don't need all the 3 bed areas like we used to so we should change them. People often overlook the fact the property requirements have dramatically changed. There are a lot of relationships where the parents are split and the child moves between two places so you have a requirement for 2 two beds. This is sucking up property space.

quadrifoglio verde

mikemac2 wrote: »

As the docklands moves eastwards with new developments I hope they go higher but believe they will not

Citibank in North Wall Quay is 5 stories in a huge site , State Street on Sir John Roberson Quay is 7 stories on quite a small and tight site. I'm not sure what Capital Dock will be but it's nothing mind blowing

Oh but but we need to protect Georgian Dublin. Last I checks the docklands are full of brown field sites and as for high rise grab the Enterprise to Belfast, plenty of high rise up the road

If we really were keen on protecting Georgian Dublin Henrietta St wouldn't be the dilapidated kip that it is

gaius c

Mrs Shuttleworth wrote: »

I know there's another thread running on this, but it's completely impracticable and I know from first hand experience and the following has not been noted.

An elderly person going into a nursing home - that is not merely the end of the matter. They veer in and out of hospitals and their own home in spite of being formally admitted under Fair Deal and often can pass away quite quickly - literally a few months - after going into long term care. The house then becomes the subject of probate/sale so there isn't any real long term security of tenure for a tenant going in. Unless the Government plans that executors of elderly persons estates will also get screwed.

Other countries make it work. Why can't we!

There's over 20k empties in Dublin alone. Dealing with that will take a lot of pressure off the rental market.

maninasia

That is neither a quick nor easy way to generate more housing availability. I also highly doubt there are many empty properties unless they are completely dilapidated or other issues around them.
What Dublin needs is more housing.

frefrefre

maninasia wrote: »

I missed probably the most important current reason for lack of construction.and therefore lack of supply.

The capital gains tax exemption which runs to 2019 and has been extended in some cases to 2024.

The government has been driving this ridiculous run up in price by strongly encouraging developers to sit on their arse and do absolutely Nothing while the value of their assets increase yearly and they wait for pay day, whats another two or five years .

One of the things I really like about this forum, which I've only been on a short while really, is some of the sound advice and analysis by a lot of very good posters on here. With that in mind, would somebody please explain to me why the government would conspire to rig the market further by extending capital gains tax exemptions until 2024?
In light of our chronic supply issue, surely this is something akin to a scandal? Are they still just trying to repair the balance sheets and artificially keep prices rising? If anything I thought they might introduce some kind of levy on unused land to get construction moving!
We need units for people to rent and buy, at affordable prices and not at rip off rates, the government are actively going against this though and not a word is raised about it.

Villa05

frefrefre wrote:

would somebody please explain to me why the government would conspire to rig the market further by extending capital gains tax exemptions until 2024? In light of our chronic supply issue, surely this is something akin to a scandal? Are they still just trying to repair the balance sheets and artificially keep prices rising? If anything I thought they might introduce some kind of levy on unused land to get construction moving!.

In fairness every measure the government has taken has made the crisis worse and is consistent with their stated policy of driving prices up.

They have got away with it so they don't appear to be in any mood to revert to logical solutions.

Just saw on the indo a homeless child with cerebral palsy trying to make it up the steps of a b&b that he has been living in for the past 18 months. The campaign led by the child's parents has forced the gov to put in a ramp

With this the a&e crisis and children with buckled backs waiting for surgery we really have become a sick country. Is there anything that will shock us into some bit of action

maninasia

Actually I can only find until 2021 according to the revenue site (budget 2014 added another year to the scheme).
www.revenue.ie.

quadrifoglio verde

Villa05 wrote: »

In fairness every measure the government has taken has made the crisis worse and is consistent with their stated policy of driving prices up.

They have got away with it so they don't appear to be in any mood to revert to logical solutions.

Just saw on the indo a homeless child with cerebral palsy trying to make it up the steps of a b&b that he has been living in for the past 18 months. The campaign led by the child's parents has forced the gov to put in a ramp

With this the a&e crisis and children with buckled backs waiting for surgery we really have become a sick country. Is there anything that will shock us into some bit of action

The family in that case turned down suitable housing because it was too far from medical supports.
Now perhaps I'm mistaken in thinking that the government houses every child with cerebal palsy and their family in spitting distance of their medical supports. : confused:
I know if it was my child and I'd the choice to make between moving slightly away from medical supports so that my son didn't have to struggle to climb a flight of stairs with a frame or continue to let him suffer and live in a 1 bedroom room upstairs in a b and b, I'd be choosing the house that was suitable
I had quite a lot of sympathy for the family up until that point.

Henbabani

Dr_Kolossus wrote: »

The_Conductor wrote: »

Petrol - Israel = EUR1.44/litre , Ireland = EUR1.35
Diesel - Israel = EUR1.32/litre , Ireland = EUR 1.22

As for food, clothing and sundry goods- Ireland is around 10% cheaper- however- this is way offset by 60% higher healthcare costs in Ireland, and over 250% higher prescription charges in Ireland- than in Israel
You win some, you loose some- Ireland is a bit cheaper for some things- significantly more expensive esp. for anything health related.

You have picked out only one aspect of the many costs of driving. Motor tax, periodic nct, vrt and more all  subsidise the relatively low cost on fuel here in Ireland. I stand to be corrected, but I doubt that overall the cost of motoring  in Ireland is cheaper than Israel.

Ireland is the land of stealth taxes. Move here and you will be in for a shock

yeah but you forgot one important thing - the minimum wage in Israel is exactly 6.26 euro, in Ireland it's 9.25, continue from here...

The_Conductor

Henbabani wrote: »

yeah but you forgot one important thing - the minimum wage in Israel is exactly 6.26 euro, in Ireland it's 9.25, continue from here...

Honestly- you're really clutching at straws.
Yes- the minimum wage may be 50% higher here- however, its impossible to live on the Minimum wage here- anyone who is on the minimum wage is entitled to social welfare topups just to survive (FIS- Family Income Support would apply).

Ireland is an incredibly high cost economy- the only thing that is cheap here- is water- both the rain outside- and the water running through our taps- which, after a bit of a battle, we don't pay for. Anything else- you will pay through the nose for.

If you're pointing out the Irish minimum wage- and how its 50% higher than Israel- as some sort of indication that you'll have a better standard of living here- please disavow yourself of the notion- its not a good yardstick.

jamesthepeach

The_Conductor wrote: »

Honestly- you're really clutching at straws.
Yes- the minimum wage may be 50% higher here- however, its impossible to live on the Minimum wage here- anyone who is on the minimum wage is entitled to social welfare topups just to survive (FIS- Family Income Support would apply).

Ireland is an incredibly high cost economy- the only thing that is cheap here- is water- both the rain outside- and the water running through our taps- which, after a bit of a battle, we don't pay for. Anything else- you will pay through the nose for.

If you're pointing out the Irish minimum wage- and how its 50% higher than Israel- as some sort of indication that you'll have a better standard of living here- please disavow yourself of the notion- its not a good yardstick.

Try buying bottled water in the shop here

Henbabani

The_Conductor wrote: »

Henbabani wrote: »

yeah but you forgot one important thing - the minimum wage in Israel is exactly 6.26 euro, in Ireland it's 9.25, continue from here...

Honestly- you're really clutching at straws.
Yes- the minimum wage may be 50% higher here- however, its impossible to live on the Minimum wage here- anyone who is on the minimum wage is entitled to social welfare topups just to survive (FIS- Family Income Support would apply).

Ireland is an incredibly high cost economy- the only thing that is cheap here- is water- both the rain outside- and the water running through our taps- which, after a bit of a battle, we don't pay for. Anything else- you will pay through the nose for.

If you're pointing out the Irish minimum wage- and how its 50% higher than Israel- as some sort of indication that you'll have a better standard of living here- please disavow yourself of the notion- its not a good yardstick.

im not living on cloud, i made and make a really good research on Ireland, im doubted if anyone who movei n to Dublin made more than one year research on the economy, where to live, costs of everything, wages and other stuff.
i still can say for sure Ireland is better than Israel.

FishOnABike

The_Conductor wrote: »

The underlying problem- feeding into all of this- is our historical parish pump politics- there is no-one looking at the bigger picture- and what is best of Ireland Inc- its all county level stuff- or worse. Our first-past-the-post electoral system feeds into all of this...........

While I'd agree that local clientism and parish pump stroke politics play a part in the mess that part and parcel of a lack of any integrated long term, national and regional development strategy we have a proportional representation single transferable vote electoral system.

It's debatable whether this PR-STV electoral system moderates the effect of an all or nothing first-past-the-post system or results in more jockeying for position among the candidates in trying to outdo each other pandering to the electorate trying to win votes.

Too many governments have been asleep at the wheel while this problem has been allowed to develop. The problem should have been identified well in advance looking at demographics, growth projections and strategic plans put in place to head off the crisis before it happened. Successive governments appear to be completely reactive in their response and incapable of looking past the next electoral cycle for fear of doing something that the opposition might gain the benefit of.

pilly

The_Conductor wrote: »

Honestly- you're really clutching at straws.
Yes- the minimum wage may be 50% higher here- however, its impossible to live on the Minimum wage here- anyone who is on the minimum wage is entitled to social welfare topups just to survive (FIS- Family Income Support would apply).

Ireland is an incredibly high cost economy- the only thing that is cheap here- is water- both the rain outside- and the water running through our taps- which, after a bit of a battle, we don't pay for. Anything else- you will pay through the nose for.

If you're pointing out the Irish minimum wage- and how its 50% higher than Israel- as some sort of indication that you'll have a better standard of living here- please disavow yourself of the notion- its not a good yardstick.

God almighty get off your high horse Conductor and don't be so sarky towards a person who's coming to our country to work and contribute to society.

Not everything here is incredibly expensive, you're wrong and extremely pessimistic. Food is extremely cheap here, as are clothes and lots of other things that I don't have time to think of right now.

But in the meantime, lay off. You're being extremely rude and patronising.

maninasia

Yeah food really is cheap in Ireland!
Clothes are cheao pretty much everywhere these days.
But as somebody who kiVes in East Asia I do find Ireland 3dpensive and costs have steadily ranked up over the last ten years or so.
Taxes are really high between income tax , VAT and fuel. Insurance costs too. Tolls not particularly cheap. Labour very expensive.

If you live outside Dublin the costs are reasonable for a house with a bit of land, you see a lot countries like Israel are densely populated so they don't really have access to cheap land or housing even in the hinterland.

Idbatterim

Honestly- you're really clutching at straws.
Yes- the minimum wage may be 50% higher here- however, its impossible to live on the Minimum wage here- anyone who is on the minimum wage is entitled to social welfare topups just to survive (FIS- Family Income Support would apply).

its may be very difficult / impossible in Dublin. it isnt outside of dublin...

jamesthepeach

Back on topic though.

I was listening to the radio yesterday and they were actually talking about ways to ATTRACT all the properties that have left the market back into the rental market.

They didnt come up with anything worthwhile but at least it makes a change from trying to "FORCE" properties into a market where the owners don't actually want to be in it.

Makes a nice change to hear something like that tbh

The_Conductor

Is there actually any measure of properties that were let- and have been removed from the market- and could potentially be returned to the market?

We know there are 70,000 fewer landlords registered with the RTB- than 5 years ago- I'd suggest that the vast majority of these have sold their properties- rather than repurposing them for airbnb- or holiday homes etc?

The opportunity cost of leaving a property vacant- is high- however, few people have the energy/skills/wherewithall to run an airbnb unit- its a lot more labour intensive than a regular letting?

I think the numbers are probably a lot lower than most people imagine- but I don't have any hard data- does anyone else?

pilly

jamesthepeach wrote: »

Back on topic though.

I was listening to the radio yesterday and they were actually talking about ways to ATTRACT all the properties that have left the market back into the rental market.

They didnt come up with anything worthwhile but at least it makes a change from trying to "FORCE" properties into a market where the owners don't actually want to be in it.

Makes a nice change to hear something like that tbh

The ONLY way LL's are going to be attracted into the market is to reduce the taxes. It's absolute madness that you've to pay the top rate of tax plus USC and PRSI on rental income.

jamesthepeach

pilly wrote: »

The ONLY way LL's are going to be attracted into the market is to reduce the taxes. It's absolute madness that you've to pay the top rate of tax plus USC and PRSI on rental income.

And remove the rent caps. And garauntee no more interference in the market.
And facilitate fast evictions.
And make an agreed lease enforceable in full by both parties.

pilly

jamesthepeach wrote: »

And remove the rent caps. And garauntee no more interference in the market.
And facilitate fast evictions.
And make an agreed lease enforceable in full by both parties.

Agreed but none of that would bring me back to the market whilst the tax is still so high.

jamesthepeach

pilly wrote: »

Agreed but none of that would bring me back to the market whilst the tax is still so high.

Agreed, me neither, but it's about a lot more than tax for me as well.

The_Conductor

jamesthepeach wrote: »

And remove the rent caps. And garauntee no more interference in the market.
And facilitate fast evictions.
And make an agreed lease enforceable in full by both parties.

My jaw just hit the floor- did you see Threshold's pre-budget submission to the government? There is a whole section in it fighting the corner of small landlords- and measures that should be taken to encourage them back into the market........... From Threshold- of all people.........

tinkerbell

The_Conductor wrote: »

My jaw just hit the floor- did you see Threshold's pre-budget submission to the government? There is a whole section in it fighting the corner of small landlords- and measures that should be taken to encourage them back into the market........... From Threshold- of all people.........

The same threshold that advise people to overhold? LOL.

DubCount

The_Conductor wrote: »

My jaw just hit the floor- did you see Threshold's pre-budget submission to the government? There is a whole section in it fighting the corner of small landlords- and measures that should be taken to encourage them back into the market........... From Threshold- of all people.........

Dont get over excited. They also want a defense of "hardship" against evictions - i.e. if a tenant is going to be homeless or under a financial burden if evicted, a landlord cant evict them.

pilly

The_Conductor wrote: »

My jaw just hit the floor- did you see Threshold's pre-budget submission to the government? There is a whole section in it fighting the corner of small landlords- and measures that should be taken to encourage them back into the market........... From Threshold- of all people.........

Where did you see this, any link?

Michael D Not Higgins

pilly wrote: »

Where did you see this, any link?

https://www.threshold.ie/download/pdf/20170822164450.pdf