2700s return

Fred Swanson · 28-05-2017 4:06pm

This post has been deleted.

GM228 · 28-05-2017 5:17pm

end of the road wrote: »

how many would that give us? about 9 10 sets? they really need to get them all back as 10 2 car sets will only eat a small bit into the capacity issue. but i presume parts are now an issue so some will be needed for christmas trees? better then nothing and welcome news but i fear it won't be enough.

11 sets are to return - likely to be 10 2-car sets and the 2 single car units.

GM228 · 28-05-2017 5:21pm

Losty Dublin wrote: »

XPS_Zero wrote: »

How does this compare to buying new ones? Cost wise? or second hand ones from UK companies or French ones or something?

A new vehicle of this type would cost around €1.5 million+ a vehicle. Add in the time to tender, build, deliver, commission and staff training and you are looking at 3-4 years. While the cost sounds high, you are talking about a working life of millions and millions of miles and 20+ years a vehicle.

New build would be around €2m+ per car for a commuter spec unit.

The ICR centre car project will cost €2.40m per carriage for a new build.

Del.Monte · 28-05-2017 5:25pm

Tell me again how much each Belmond paid for the MkIIIs?

tabbey · 28-05-2017 9:11pm

The 2700s were unreliable on the Rosslare line, but Limerick seemed to keep them running. Presumably the fitters in Limerick became proficient with them, while Drogheda saw them as a non standard nuisance.

These sets have low mileage on the clock, do they really need complete refurbishment at a quarter million spend per vehicle?

What work will be done for this money? new engines or what?

Will they end up being refurbished at great expense, only to be stored / disused after a short period in revenue service?

end of the road · 28-05-2017 10:00pm

tabbey wrote: »

The 2700s were unreliable on the Rosslare line,

their other cousins weren't much better tbh. not a surprise really considering they are designed for suburban duties (slow, stop start services)

tabbey wrote: »

Limerick seemed to keep them running. Presumably the fitters in Limerick became proficient with them, while Drogheda saw them as a non standard nuisance.

i'd imagine so. + their operations were effectively rather light. trodding along at 20 mph or 30 mph to ballybroaphy and waterford and galway wouldn't be a problem even for those rattle traps.

tabbey wrote: »

These sets have low mileage on the clock, do they really need complete refurbishment at a quarter million spend per vehicle?

i would say so, i'm unsure if they have been stored under cover? i believe they have been started up and moved about but that probably wouldn't be much to keep them in a decent state for 5 years while out of service. mind you it's better then what the stored 201s got.

tabbey wrote: »

What work will be done for this money? new engines or what?

i shouldn't think they would re-engine them unless they are planning to do the 26 and 2800s as well. new engines would mean training on their maintenence whereas just keeping the same engine means familiarity or a refresher depending on where they are deployed. i'd imagine the refurbishment won't see the gangways being put back on though which is one thing i was hoping for.

tabbey wrote: »

Will they end up being refurbished at great expense, only to be stored / disused after a short period in revenue service?

wouldn't surprise me but i hope i'm proven wrong.

Jamie2k9 · 28-05-2017 10:28pm

tabbey wrote: »

The 2700s were unreliable on the Rosslare line, but Limerick seemed to keep them running. Presumably the fitters in Limerick became proficient with them, while Drogheda saw them as a non standard nuisance.

These sets have low mileage on the clock, do they really need complete refurbishment at a quarter million spend per vehicle?

What work will be done for this money? new engines or what?

Will they end up being refurbished at great expense, only to be stored / disused after a short period in revenue service?

One might expect they are going to have the refits to make them more compatible with the other units (26/29) to cut down on future costs with keeping them in service.

tabbey · 29-05-2017 9:31am

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

One might expect they are going to have the refits to make them more compatible with the other units (26/29) to cut down on future costs with keeping them in service.

I know that 2700 were built by Alst(h)om, but what exactly are the differences between 2700 and 26/2800 classes and what alterations are needed to make them compatible?

LXFlyer · 29-05-2017 10:53am

I would imagine what will happen is that the 2700s will take over the Limerick based duties (including the Ballina branch) and that the 2800s will return to Dublin.

That would allow at a minimum an additional two six piece trains and a four piece trains to be added to Dublin commuter network, allowing for two units being either serviced or available as a maintenance spare.

I'm not sure compatibility is really an issue if you have the 2600s in Cork, 2700s in Limerick and 2800s in Dublin.

goingnowhere · 29-05-2017 11:01am

Refurb wise, major mid lift overhaul is a 300k cost

Full engine, transmission, gearbox overhaul
Full bogie overhaul, new wheels
New passenger information system + CCTV
Bring accessibility up to current standards (2700 pre date the current standards), new door buttons etc.

The 2700's came from that crap build quality era in Alsthom, a bit of TLC would get them sorted

In Dublin the key problem was the doors being troublesome, plus the strain of full crush load on the Northern line. Out of Limerick life was nice and relaxed, but Limerick - Limerick Junc shuttle was often a full throttle flat out dash

One good thing the 2700 have going for them is that they don't rust.

L1011 · 29-05-2017 10:56pm

Have the 2600s had any overhauls - mechanical or cosmetic - as they're getting on a bit now?

tabbey · 30-05-2017 9:46pm

L1011 wrote: »

Have the 2600s had any overhauls - mechanical or cosmetic - as they're getting on a bit now?

They have certainly had their seats replaced,nice suburban seats in place of the original high back seating.

As they have low mileage, trundling around Cork Harbour mostly just above sea level, they are not overworked. Of course when they originally entered service on the Arrow service Dublin - Kildare, and subsequently on Dublin outer suburban routes, they had to work a bit harder. They are well built and given regular maintenance as per manufacturers instructions, they should last many more years.

I do enjoy my occasional trip on the 2600s on the East Cork lines.

Jamie2k9 · 30-05-2017 11:56pm

L1011 wrote: »

Have the 2600s had any overhauls - mechanical or cosmetic - as they're getting on a bit now?

They have I think, certainly modifications over the years. Can't see any rush in getting rid of them.

I'm not sure compatibility is really an issue if you have the 2600s in Cork, 2700s in Limerick and 2800s in Dublin.

From a cost prospective it would be and I think IE will use the refurb to try where possible to match up parts.

GM228 · 02-07-2017 12:05am

GM228 wrote: »

Following several delays it looks likely the tender will issue shortly once board approval of the actual tender specification is completed.

Tender to issue in the next forthnight.

Apart from complete overhaul and fitment of the DRA system, new PIS systems are to be fitted aswell as a real time fuel, condition, and positioning monitoring system and they are to be made fully compatible with the existing DMU fleets (2600, 2800s and 29000s) apparently.

Jamie2k9 · 02-07-2017 12:09am

positioning monitoring system

This is?

they are to be made fully compatible with the existing DMU fleets (2600, 2800s and 29000s) apparently.

I knew this would be a top priority!

GM228 · 02-07-2017 8:33pm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

positioning monitoring system

This is?

GPS tracking system.

tabbey · 02-07-2017 10:45pm

GM228 wrote: »

Tender to issue in the next forthnight.

Apart from complete overhaul and fitment of the DRA system.

what is the DRA system?

Fred Swanson · 03-07-2017 12:10am

This post has been deleted.

loyatemu · 03-07-2017 9:59am

GM228 wrote: »

new PIS systems are to be fitted aswell

why bother, when they're not switched off, they're showing the wrong information.

goingnowhere · 03-07-2017 10:50am

GM228 wrote: »

GPS tracking system.

Bit more complicated, its a comprehensive train monitoring package from Nexala which is fitted on the 22k and 29k fleets

GM228 · 04-07-2017 10:15am

goingnowhere wrote: »

Bit more complicated, its a comprehensive train monitoring package from Nexala which is fitted on the 22k and 29k fleets

I was replying to the question of what "positioning monitoring system" was.

And no it isn't Nexala (Nexala no longer exist) or a similar type of system.

The Nexala R2M system fitted to the 22000s and 29000s is a real-time remote diagnostic and monitoring system, the proposed system for the 2700s is likely to be the same system currently being fitted to the 2800s (followed by the 2600s, 071 and 201s) which monitos fuel intake, fuel volume and GPS position, there is no remote diagnostic with the 2800 system.

end of the road · 04-07-2017 1:48pm

GM228 wrote: »

I was replying to the question of what "positioning monitoring system" was.

And no it isn't Nexala (Nexala no longer exist) or a similar type of system.

The Nexala R2M system fitted to the 22000s and 29000s is a real-time remote diagnostic and monitoring system, the proposed system for the 2700s is likely to be the same system currently being fitted to the 2800s (followed by the 2600s, 071 and 201s) which monitos fuel intake, fuel volume and GPS position, there is no remote diagnostic with the 2800 system.

why aren't they fitting all those with a remote diagnostic system? cost, or lack of availability of a suitable system that would be compatible?

Jamie2k9 · 23-07-2017 12:50pm

RiggsRants wrote: »

Hi all (I'm new to boards) had a good read of that report during the week and it certainly throws up a few interesting figures. Did IE not get and offers in 2012 when they put the 2700s up for sale or what sort of money were they expecting for them?

Probably not, it's more less useless selling rolling stock because of the Irish gauge difference to most of the world.

Losty Dublin · 24-07-2017 8:06pm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Probably not, it's more less useless selling rolling stock because of the Irish gauge difference to most of the world.

The gauge doesn't materially affect the sale as new wheels can easily be fitted to fit the local gauge. What affects their selling potential is the price to move them from Ireland.

L1011 · 25-07-2017 8:02am

Narrowing the gauge on a DMU would be extremely challenging due to the underslung equipment. The reverse is significantly easier but there's not many >1600 mm operators either

Jamie2k9 · 25-07-2017 3:19pm

Losty Dublin wrote: »

The gauge doesn't materially affect the sale as new wheels can easily be fitted to fit the local gauge. What affects their selling potential is the price to move them from Ireland.

Maybe a point but they would of been able to get new trains made when you consider the cost of buying, cost of removal, cost of refitting. They never had a chance of getting sold, first question I would ask is why they were removed by IE if I was a prospective buyer.

Yea unless they were specifically targeting franchises in Australia or Brazil what was the point in ever putting them up for sale. im assuming as the oldest in the fleet the 2600s would be the next to be scrapped/sold if IE invest in new trains?

Outside the middle cars for the ICR's, I suspect new commuter stock may well be focused on DART within 10 years if expanded towards Maynooth and Ballybricken. A lot of the DART fleet will be 40 years old in the next 6/7 years and need replacing.

Losty Dublin · 25-07-2017 7:22pm

L1011 wrote: »

Narrowing the gauge on a DMU would be extremely challenging due to the underslung equipment. The reverse is significantly easier but there's not many >1600 mm operators either

It isn't actually challenging. Bogies are a standard design and are designed to handle different gauges, including some lines which are actually a little wider than in Ireland. Almost the first thing that will be done on used stock is wheel turning and fresh tyre laying. These are common jobs for most running sheds to undertake so fitting new axles is not the nightmare that it's made out to be.

Losty Dublin · 25-07-2017 7:27pm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Maybe a point but they would of been able to get new trains made when you consider the cost of buying, cost of removal, cost of refitting. They never had a chance of getting sold, first question I would ask is why they were removed by IE if I was a prospective buyer.

New stock can take 2-4 years to build and supply. If an operator is urgently looking for stock, second hand can make sense.

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Outside the middle cars for the ICR's, I suspect new commuter stock may well be focused on DART within 10 years if expanded towards Maynooth and Ballybricken. A lot of the DART fleet will be 40 years old in the next 6/7 years and need replacing.

81/8300 were only recently refurbished in the last few years and look as good as the day that they were delivered. There's no immediate plans to order new stock anytime soon so they have a long life ahead of them.

devnull · 25-07-2017 7:46pm

The 8100 are excellent trains, still the best DARTS if you ask me, they got a very good refurbishment.

tabbey · 25-07-2017 9:59pm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

I suspect new commuter stock may well be focused on DART within 10 years if expanded towards Maynooth and Ballybricken.

Ballybricken - that would be WART; Waterford Area Rapid Transit. I look forward to this and CART . Fermoy deserves a rapid transit also, maybe Tralee.

tabbey · 25-07-2017 10:05pm

devnull wrote: »

The 8100 are excellent trains, still the best DARTS if you ask me, they got a very good refurbishment.

Probably the best rolling stock on IR, certainly for the role they serve.

GhostyMcGhost · 25-07-2017 10:07pm

tabbey wrote: »

Ballybricken - that would be WART; Waterford Area Rapid Transit. I look forward to this and CART . Fermoy deserves a rapid transit also, maybe Tralee.

TART?

tabbey · 25-07-2017 10:16pm

RiggsRants wrote: »

im assuming as the oldest in the fleet the 2600s would be the next to be scrapped/sold if IE invest in new trains?

I notice external corrosion on some of the 2800s, at floor level near the doors
As they are a second batch of 2600s, does this problem affect 2600s also. Not having been to Cork for a couple of years, I have not seen them recently. I hope they are OK as I always enjoy them on a Cobh trip.

Jamie2k9 · 25-07-2017 11:13pm

81/8300 were only recently refurbished in the last few years and look as good as the day that they were delivered. There's no immediate plans to order new stock anytime soon so they have a long life ahead of them.

Even so once they are 40-45 years only they will look at new options and likely place a big order as part of expanded EMU ops in Dublin area for replacement.

Then even longer term, DU will throw up it's own problems for the old fleet.

dublinman1990 · 26-07-2017 12:04am

What will happen to the paper destination blinds when these trains are refurbished; Will they be taken off and given electronic displays instead?

Will the trains have the dark green livery on them once they return to service in IE like the 29k's?

GM228 · 26-07-2017 12:25am

dublinman1990 wrote: »

What will happen to the paper destination blinds when these trains are refurbished; Will they be taken off and given electronic displays instead?

Will the trains have the dark green livery on them once they return to service in IE like the 29k's?

2700s already have electronicl destinations, they will be upgraded though (change of colour like on 2716).

Paper blinds on the 2600s and 2800s are to be replaced by electronic versions (soon I believe) following a tender for such late last year.

https://www.tendersdirect.ie/Search/Tenders/Expired.aspx?ID=%20000000005985985&sect=&cat=32&Page=Categories

goingnowhere · 26-07-2017 12:27am

Losty Dublin wrote: »

81/8300 were only recently refurbished in the last few years and look as good as the day that they were delivered. There's no immediate plans to order new stock anytime soon so they have a long life ahead of them.

Specification for replacement is in preparation, mechanically the bodies/bogies are good for 40 years (originally 35) so must be gone by 2024

devnull · 26-07-2017 12:55am

They have quite a few brothers, sisters and cousins still going well

Hamburg in particular has a lot of LHB U-Bahn and S-Bahn stock which are almost identical inside to the 8100 class .

There's also some LHB stock in other German cities which is similar as well.

L1011 · 26-07-2017 12:47pm

The Amsterdam metro LHB stock was withdrawn around 35 years also

devnull · 26-07-2017 1:06pm

Apart from the most recent S-Bahn and U-Bahn stock pretty much all the Hamburg stuff is close cousins to the 8100.

DT2 wasn't like the 8100s initially but the DT2 refurbishment made it look so, DT3 isn't far off and DT4 in it's original style was quite similar as well, but not since they were refurbished.

472/473 range were also similar and the 474 was the last design of that LHB product before that product line was discontinued in favour of the Alstom parent line following the Alstom takeover.

Personally I reckon the 8100s could outlast the Amsterdam ones though, the 8100s had a proper, good quality refurbishment which didn't have lots of corners cut, in fact, I remember Siemens did more than was originally contracted which delayed the project in Ireland.

Jamie2k9 · 26-07-2017 5:55pm

This is evertying they are looking for in the 2700:

This engineering intervention will involve a number of core requirements such as (but not limited to);

* - Undertaking heavy maintenance activities on key systems (i.e. Bogies, Final Drives, Exhausts, Cooling System, Gangways, Couplers, Pneumatic Systems etc.)
* - Undertaking system integrity and refurbishment to existing sub-systems (i.e. Fire Suppression, Toilet Modules, Passenger Doors, Lighting, Glazing etc.)
* - Supply and installation of replacement components and assemblies (i.e. Passenger seating, flooring systems, underframe equipment cabinets, interior panels, luggage racks etc.)
* - Undertake modification works (electrical, mechanical and body) to bring the refurbished fleet in line with the remainder of the IÉ fleets)

In addition to the core requirement, IÉ will be seeking upgrade proposals as costed options which may be selected to form part of the overall contract award. The costed options will cover (but not limited to) the following;

* - Overhaul of Traction and Generator engines;
* - Overhaul of Transmissions and/or Transmission replacement;
* - Overhaul of Vacuum Toilets;
* - Installation of new Fire Suppression System;
* - Supply and installation of LED saloon lighting;
* - Supply and installation of Passenger Information System;
* - Supply and installation of CCTV system

The journal is reporting they are bringing by all 28 (i.e 14 sets) not 10 as rumoured but they re not exactly always accurate with the news.

GM228 · 26-07-2017 6:23pm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

This is evertying they are looking for in the 2700:

The journal is reporting they are bringing by all 28 (i.e 14 sets) not 10 as rumoured but they re not exactly always accurate with the news.

The tender does not state how many sets are to return, just that there are 28 vehicles in the class which is wrong as there are 27 (unless they are counting 2609 as a 28th 2700) - but I have not heard of any plan to reintroduce the entire fleet or the hybrid.

The original plan was for 10 sets to return which was increased to 11 sets (by adding 2751 and 2753 to the plan) as confirmed by the NTA last August.

goingnowhere · 26-07-2017 6:32pm

Might as well go for the full fleet, if the NTA is funding it, thats 8 more coaches, a full extra rush hour train basically

The 41 ICR cars are a long way away if they ever happen

end of the road · 26-07-2017 6:34pm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

This is evertying they are looking for in the 2700:

The journal is reporting they are bringing by all 28 (i.e 14 sets) not 10 as rumoured but they re not exactly always accurate with the news.

i see gangways are mentioned. they are hardly going to reinstall the front gangways to the units? unless they are talking about the internal gangways?

goingnowhere wrote: »

Might as well go for the full fleet, if the NTA is funding it, thats 8 more coaches, a full extra rush hour train basically

completely agree. get them all back and utilise.

goingnowhere wrote: »

The 41 ICR cars are a long way away if they ever happen

and as we know they will solve little in terms of the suburban routes.

thomasj · 26-07-2017 6:44pm

http://www.thejournal.ie/irish-rail-28-carriage-refurbishment-3515635-Jul2017/

The move will free up other trains for use in the Greater Dublin Area. It is envisaged that they will re-enter service next year and 2019.

However, with passenger demand now increasing once more, the company wants to get the carriages back on tracks around Limerick.

So, looking like the 2800s will be returning to Dublin

GM228 · 26-07-2017 6:46pm

end of the road wrote: »

i see gangways are mentioned. they are hardly going to reinstall the front gangways to the units? unless they are talking about the internal gangways?

It's the internal gangways.

Fred Swanson · 26-07-2017 6:49pm

This post has been deleted.

GM228 · 26-07-2017 6:55pm

thomasj wrote: »

http://www.thejournal.ie/irish-rail-28-carriage-refurbishment-3515635-Jul2017/

So, looking like the 2800s will be returning to Dublin

The actual tender simply indicates the (incorrect) fleet size, not how many are to return which is I'm told (and previously confirmed by the NTA) 11 sets.

Plan was to have the 2700s in Dublin which has indeed now changed to have the 2800s in Dublin which could change again due to the 2600s remaining in Cork as the 2600s and 2800s are regarded as a common fleet. That said I'm told that the 2700s will be initially fully compatible with the 2600 and 2800s and 29000 compatability is on the long finger.

GM228 · 26-07-2017 6:56pm

Fred Swanson wrote: »

Are the 2 bubble cars going back into service? I did read somewhere they cannot be operated singularly.

Yes, they can and did operate singularly.

tabbey · 26-07-2017 9:29pm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Even so once they are 40-45 years

No.
They are 33 years in service.

Modern solidly built stock should last at least 40 years. Only vehicles problematical in some way, should be withdrawn early and many sound trains last much longer.

Melbourne still has vehicles built as EMUs in 1956, which were converted in late 1980s to hauled coaches for outer suburban services.

2700s return

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