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2700s return

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    #32
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    end of the road wrote: »
    in relation to the hybrid what happened the other vehicles of their original sets? scrapped or were they simply spare single vehicles?

    The Hybrid was made of the maintenance spare 2600 and 2700, they never had a match and were swaped over with the running sets once or twice before becoming the Hybrid.


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    #33
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,834 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Was it not a the 2600 spare and half a crashed 2700?


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    #34
    Captain Chaos
    Registered Users Posts: 11,174 ✭✭✭✭Captain Chaos


    L1011 wrote: »
    Was it not a the 2600 spare and half a crashed 2700?

    It was a 2600 spare and 2700 spare. But they were both ex crashed units as the planned spares were in use to replace them so when repaired they became the spares.


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    #35
    dowlingm
    Registered Users Posts: 5,312 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    I wonder how much longer the 2600s can be expected to last.


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    #36
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,990 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    dowlingm wrote: »
    I wonder how much longer the 2600s can be expected to last.

    another 20 years i should think.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #37
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    Captain Chaos wrote: »
    L1011 wrote: »
    Was it not a the 2600 spare and half a crashed 2700?

    It was a 2600 spare and 2700 spare. But they were both ex crashed units as the planned spares were in use to replace them so when repaired they became the spares.

    Only 2716 was damaged (sideswipe incident in 2000) and replaced by the then spare 2724 (which had already previously swaped with 2726). 2609 developed a major fault shortly after entry into service in 1994 and was swaped with the then spare 2613.

    2609 and 2716 then remained out of service in store at Inchicore and unrepaired until 2005 when they were repaired and modified by Hunslet-Barclay in Kilmarnock to be the Hybrid set and re-entering service in July 2007.


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    #38
    dowlingm
    Registered Users Posts: 5,312 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    end of the road wrote: »
    another 20 years i should think.
    Maybe that will turn out to be true. DMUs have the disadvantage of having to absorb engine vibration which unpowered stock doesn't. Don't know if the builders were quite as conservative as Budd with their virtually indestructible RDC stainless steel frames.


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    #39
    tabbey
    Registered Users Posts: 1,943 ✭✭✭tabbey


    end of the road wrote: »
    another 20 years i should think.

    They were solidly built and should last another 20 years assuming proper maintenance.
    They are ideal for the East Cork services, and passengers always appear happy, unlike their 2900 cousins.

    The real problem is the bizarre attitude of Irish Rail management, prematurely withdrawing / or storing good rolling stock, then leaving it out exposed to the elements and vandals, until it is no longer serviceable.


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    #40
    tabbey
    Registered Users Posts: 1,943 ✭✭✭tabbey


    dowlingm wrote: »
    Maybe that will turn out to be true. DMUs have the disadvantage of having to absorb engine vibration which unpowered stock doesn't. Don't know if the builders were quite as conservative as Budd with their virtually indestructible RDC stainless steel frames.

    I'd love a fleet of Budd RDCs


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    #41
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,990 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    dowlingm wrote: »
    Maybe that will turn out to be true. DMUs have the disadvantage of having to absorb engine vibration which unpowered stock doesn't. Don't know if the builders were quite as conservative as Budd with their virtually indestructible RDC stainless steel frames.

    oh i'd doubt it. it's unbelieveable how well built the RDC railcars were. i don't think anything built later can ever compete tbh.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #42
    Losty Dublin
    Registered Users Posts: 13,000 ✭✭✭✭Losty Dublin


    tabbey wrote: »
    They were solidly built and should last another 20 years assuming proper maintenance.
    They are ideal for the East Cork services, and passengers always appear happy, unlike their 2900 cousins.

    The real problem is the bizarre attitude of Irish Rail management, prematurely withdrawing / or storing good rolling stock, then leaving it out exposed to the elements and vandals, until it is no longer serviceable.

    2600 were intended to have a working life of between 15 and 20 years. They are now into their 23rd year and with no sign of slowing down.


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    #43
    Cravens
    Registered Users Posts: 87 ✭✭Cravens


    Does anyone know if the 2700's are out testing now? Only I am currently in Hansfield and I heard a horn that sounded suspiciously like a 2700's off in the distance. Certainly didn't sound like a 29k or a 22k or any loco. It'd kinda tie in with the timetable IE had for the reintroduction of the class from February.


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    #44
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,834 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    A 4 car 2700 would be a huge improvement over the 3 car 22000s on peak services there. Utterly unsuitable for standing passengers


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    #45
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,990 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    L1011 wrote: »
    A 4 car 2700 would be a huge improvement over the 3 car 22000s on peak services there. Utterly unsuitable for standing passengers

    absolutely agree and this is a rather common topic on here. mind you i wouldn't hold your breath on IE changing the way it uses it's stock though.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #46
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    Cravens wrote: »
    Does anyone know if the 2700's are out testing now? Only I am currently in Hansfield and I heard a horn that sounded suspiciously like a 2700's off in the distance. Certainly didn't sound like a 29k or a 22k or any loco. It'd kinda tie in with the timetable IE had for the reintroduction of the class from February.

    No the tender hasn't even issued yet (was due out last month).

    There is no plan to reintroduce them from February (that was the original speculation until full overhaul got the green light), it is expected first set would be ready for trials around February 2018 though.


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    #47
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    Following several delays it looks likely the tender will issue shortly once board approval of the actual tender specification is completed.

    Estimated cost of the project is now at approximately €360,000 per vehicle, significantly higher than the original estimated "€200,000-€300,000" per vehicle as per the NTA. €8m is to be set aside for the project.


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    #48
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,990 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    GM228 wrote: »
    Following several delays it looks likely the tender will issue shortly once board approval of the actual tender specification is completed.

    Estimated cost of the project is now at approximately €360,000 per vehicle, significantly higher than the original estimated "€200,000-€300,000" per vehicle as per the NTA. €8m is to be set aside for the project.

    how many would that give us? about 9 10 sets? they really need to get them all back as 10 2 car sets will only eat a small bit into the capacity issue. but i presume parts are now an issue so some will be needed for christmas trees? better then nothing and welcome news but i fear it won't be enough.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #49
    XPS_Zero
    Registered Users Posts: 910 ✭✭✭XPS_Zero


    GM228 wrote: »
    Following several delays it looks likely the tender will issue shortly once board approval of the actual tender specification is completed.

    Estimated cost of the project is now at approximately €360,000 per vehicle, significantly higher than the original estimated "€200,000-€300,000" per vehicle as per the NTA. €8m is to be set aside for the project.

    How does this compare to buying new ones? Cost wise? or second hand ones from UK companies or French ones or something?


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    #50
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,990 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    XPS_Zero wrote: »
    How does this compare to buying new ones? Cost wise? or second hand ones from UK companies or French ones or something?

    refurbishing these would definitely be a lot more cost effective then buying second hand ones from elsewhere. buying second hand units from elsewhere would have both refurbishing and regauging costs whereas the 2700s just have the cost of refurbishment. there is also the training on an unfamiliar type with something from elsewhere rather then a refresher course for if even that on an all ready familiar type in the 2700s.

    while we do need new vehicles anyway, i reccan refurbishing the 2700s would be more cost effective then buying a lot more extra new vehicles as a good refurbishment should see them through the next 20-30 years meaning less new vehicles required. i do believe all units need to be done though and hopefully in time that will happen if the first round are successful.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #51
    Losty Dublin
    Registered Users Posts: 13,000 ✭✭✭✭Losty Dublin


    XPS_Zero wrote: »
    How does this compare to buying new ones? Cost wise? or second hand ones from UK companies or French ones or something?

    A new vehicle of this type would cost around €1.5 million+ a vehicle. Add in the time to tender, build, deliver, commission and staff training and you are looking at 3-4 years. While the cost sounds high, you are talking about a working life of millions and millions of miles and 20+ years a vehicle.


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    #52
    Fred Swanson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


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    #53
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    end of the road wrote: »
    how many would that give us? about 9 10 sets? they really need to get them all back as 10 2 car sets will only eat a small bit into the capacity issue. but i presume parts are now an issue so some will be needed for christmas trees? better then nothing and welcome news but i fear it won't be enough.

    11 sets are to return - likely to be 10 2-car sets and the 2 single car units.


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    #54
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    Losty Dublin wrote: »
    XPS_Zero wrote: »
    How does this compare to buying new ones? Cost wise? or second hand ones from UK companies or French ones or something?

    A new vehicle of this type would cost around €1.5 million+ a vehicle. Add in the time to tender, build, deliver, commission and staff training and you are looking at 3-4 years. While the cost sounds high, you are talking about a working life of millions and millions of miles and 20+ years a vehicle.

    New build would be around €2m+ per car for a commuter spec unit.

    The ICR centre car project will cost €2.40m per carriage for a new build.


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    #55
    Del.Monte
    Registered Users Posts: 12,363 ✭✭✭✭Del.Monte


    Tell me again how much each Belmond paid for the MkIIIs?

    ****



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    #56
    tabbey
    Registered Users Posts: 1,943 ✭✭✭tabbey


    The 2700s were unreliable on the Rosslare line, but Limerick seemed to keep them running. Presumably the fitters in Limerick became proficient with them, while Drogheda saw them as a non standard nuisance.

    These sets have low mileage on the clock, do they really need complete refurbishment at a quarter million spend per vehicle?

    What work will be done for this money? new engines or what?

    Will they end up being refurbished at great expense, only to be stored / disused after a short period in revenue service?


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    #57
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,990 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    tabbey wrote: »
    The 2700s were unreliable on the Rosslare line,

    their other cousins weren't much better tbh. not a surprise really considering they are designed for suburban duties (slow, stop start services)
    tabbey wrote: »
    Limerick seemed to keep them running. Presumably the fitters in Limerick became proficient with them, while Drogheda saw them as a non standard nuisance.

    i'd imagine so. + their operations were effectively rather light. trodding along at 20 mph or 30 mph to ballybroaphy and waterford and galway wouldn't be a problem even for those rattle traps.
    tabbey wrote: »
    These sets have low mileage on the clock, do they really need complete refurbishment at a quarter million spend per vehicle?

    i would say so, i'm unsure if they have been stored under cover? i believe they have been started up and moved about but that probably wouldn't be much to keep them in a decent state for 5 years while out of service. mind you it's better then what the stored 201s got.
    tabbey wrote: »
    What work will be done for this money? new engines or what?

    i shouldn't think they would re-engine them unless they are planning to do the 26 and 2800s as well. new engines would mean training on their maintenence whereas just keeping the same engine means familiarity or a refresher depending on where they are deployed. i'd imagine the refurbishment won't see the gangways being put back on though which is one thing i was hoping for.
    tabbey wrote: »
    Will they end up being refurbished at great expense, only to be stored / disused after a short period in revenue service?

    wouldn't surprise me but i hope i'm proven wrong.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #58
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users Posts: 10,672 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    tabbey wrote: »
    The 2700s were unreliable on the Rosslare line, but Limerick seemed to keep them running. Presumably the fitters in Limerick became proficient with them, while Drogheda saw them as a non standard nuisance.

    These sets have low mileage on the clock, do they really need complete refurbishment at a quarter million spend per vehicle?

    What work will be done for this money? new engines or what?

    Will they end up being refurbished at great expense, only to be stored / disused after a short period in revenue service?
    One might expect they are going to have the refits to make them more compatible with the other units (26/29) to cut down on future costs with keeping them in service.


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    #59
    tabbey
    Registered Users Posts: 1,943 ✭✭✭tabbey


    Jamie2k9 wrote: »
    One might expect they are going to have the refits to make them more compatible with the other units (26/29) to cut down on future costs with keeping them in service.

    I know that 2700 were built by Alst(h)om, but what exactly are the differences between 2700 and 26/2800 classes and what alterations are needed to make them compatible?


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    #60
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,558 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    I would imagine what will happen is that the 2700s will take over the Limerick based duties (including the Ballina branch) and that the 2800s will return to Dublin.

    That would allow at a minimum an additional two six piece trains and a four piece trains to be added to Dublin commuter network, allowing for two units being either serviced or available as a maintenance spare.

    I'm not sure compatibility is really an issue if you have the 2600s in Cork, 2700s in Limerick and 2800s in Dublin.


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    #61
    goingnowhere
    Registered Users Posts: 4,142 ✭✭✭goingnowhere


    Refurb wise, major mid lift overhaul is a 300k cost

    Full engine, transmission, gearbox overhaul
    Full bogie overhaul, new wheels
    New passenger information system + CCTV
    Bring accessibility up to current standards (2700 pre date the current standards), new door buttons etc.

    The 2700's came from that crap build quality era in Alsthom, a bit of TLC would get them sorted

    In Dublin the key problem was the doors being troublesome, plus the strain of full crush load on the Northern line. Out of Limerick life was nice and relaxed, but Limerick - Limerick Junc shuttle was often a full throttle flat out dash

    One good thing the 2700 have going for them is that they don't rust.


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