The Frankel Foals Watch Thread!

Itziger · 03-10-2017 8:27pm

tryfix wrote: »

A Frankel half sister to Oaks winner Talent ( basically a Cup Horse in the making) goes for £2.5 million at Tattersalls today.

It's crazy stuff, not so much that a well bred Frankel filly ( Broodmare to be) would make so much, but that foals are selling weekly now for multi-million price tags. It's a bubble that's reliant on a continuous cycle of selling sky-high price yearlings thereby making the production of high priced yearlings a justification for the sky-high price of new breeding stock.

There's no basis for the prices based on future earnings at the track, the opposite applies so it's all a house of cards now propped up by rich outsiders buying into the racing and bloodstock game. All it'll take is another economic shock and boom, a whole lot of people will be caught out with high priced stock that'll sell for peanuts compared to the price it cost to produce it.

That'll be their problem, won't it. It's about time this country and a lot of others saw these 'investors' for what they are: Big Time greedy Gamblers.

The problem will be the poor bloody stable lads and lasses who might be looking for work as a result of the players.

Same thing happens in many, many other areas of life of course, not just horse breeding and selling.

diomed · 05-10-2017 5:46pm

Some real bargains in the Tattersalls yearling sales at Newmarket today.
Pity I slept in and missed my flight. :pac:

418 Gloam (IRE) B.F. by Galileo (IRE) x Dank (GB) Related Results 4,000,000 guineas ... Consignor: Norris Bloodstock — Purchaser: Godolphin
381 Invincible Spirit (IRE) / Cassandra Go (IRE) B.F. Related Results VideoUpdate 1,600,000 ... Consignor: Ballyhimikin Stud, Ireland — Purchaser: MV Magnier
416 Dubawi (IRE) / Danedream (GER) B.C. Related Results VideoUpdate 1,500,000 ... Consignor: Newsells Park Stud Ltd. (Agent) — Purchaser: Shadwell Estate Company
347 Dubawi (IRE) / Attraction (GB) B.C. Related Results VideoUpdate 1,350,000 ... Consignor: Floors Stud — Purchaser: Shadwell Estate Company
443 Sea The Stars (IRE) / Elegant Shadow (GER) B.C. Related Results Video 1,000,000 ... Consignor: Deerpark Stud, Ireland — Purchaser: Kerri Radcliffe Bloodstock

tryfix · 05-10-2017 6:51pm

diomed wrote: »

Some real bargains in the Tattersalls yearling sales at Newmarket today.
Pity I slept in and missed my flight. :pac:

418 Gloam (IRE) B.F. by Galileo (IRE) x Dank (GB) Related Results 4,000,000 guineas ... Consignor: Norris Bloodstock — Purchaser: Godolphin
381 Invincible Spirit (IRE) / Cassandra Go (IRE) B.F. Related Results VideoUpdate 1,600,000 ... Consignor: Ballyhimikin Stud, Ireland — Purchaser: MV Magnier
416 Dubawi (IRE) / Danedream (GER) B.C. Related Results VideoUpdate 1,500,000 ... Consignor: Newsells Park Stud Ltd. (Agent) — Purchaser: Shadwell Estate Company
347 Dubawi (IRE) / Attraction (GB) B.C. Related Results VideoUpdate 1,350,000 ... Consignor: Floors Stud — Purchaser: Shadwell Estate Company
443 Sea The Stars (IRE) / Elegant Shadow (GER) B.C. Related Results Video 1,000,000 ... Consignor: Deerpark Stud, Ireland — Purchaser: Kerri Radcliffe Bloodstock

But she's such a beautiful thing

It turns out that there's method to the madness. The Sheikh is serious about turning up the success rate of his own studs. Stock like her are designed to turn the Sheikh's breeding operation into something more Juddmonte like.

"You very rarely have a filly of this quality come onto the market," said Gosden. "She's by a great stallion and out of a phenomenal racemare. She's an outstanding physical example. For her racing future and her breeding future she's a very exciting prospect - that's what we prefer to concentrate on."

Gosden went on to explain some of the thinking behind the commitment of such an eye-watering sum.

"You must always think that the stud needs to be regenerated with new bloodlines," he said. "That's very important, for the racing programme and the breeding programme equally. If we see nice fillies by any stallion we'll be very interested, just as we would with a nice colt. It just so happens that this filly, and the filly sold by Ballylinch at Goffs, are outstanding physical specimens with great pedigrees."

https://www.racingpost.com/bloodstock/bloodstock-world/godolphin-outgun-coolmore-at-4-million-gns-for-galileo-filly/303401

Itziger · 05-10-2017 8:49pm

tryfix wrote: »

But she's such a beautiful thing

It turns out that there's method to the madness. The Sheikh is serious about turning up the success rate of his own studs. Stock like her are designed to turn the Sheikh's breeding operation into something more Juddmonte like.

https://www.racingpost.com/bloodstock/bloodstock-world/godolphin-outgun-coolmore-at-4-million-gns-for-galileo-filly/303401

Just showed the pic to my wife, and she said......... "Very shiny". That's what 4 million bucks gets ya these days, a shiny horse.

Itziger · 05-10-2017 8:51pm

She does look a beauty though.

diomed · 06-10-2017 10:21am

Itziger wrote: »

She does look a beauty though.

Yes, that is a nice looking woman leading the filly.
I would be more interested in the height of the person leading the horse.
Many consignors have their horses led by small people to make the horse look big.

Francie Barrett · 13-10-2017 8:15pm

I have to say Goldrush looked very impressive there in the 8:00 at Dundalk winning its listed race. Ran green as anything and looked in trouble coming around the bend, Kevin Manning only had to push the button and it sliced through the field to win, coming home finishing the fastest. Looks like there is improvement to come.

tryfix · 13-10-2017 11:22pm

Francie Barrett wrote: »

I have to say Goldrush looked very impressive there in the 8:00 at Dundalk winning its listed race. Ran green as anything and looked in trouble coming around the bend, Kevin Manning only had to push the button and it sliced through the field to win, coming home finishing the fastest. Looks like there is improvement to come.

Had a look at the result, she beat nothing, the second has an OR of 100 but hasn't run to that in a very long time, the third is an OR 91 rated 8yo beaten 1 1/4 lengths ( about the same advantage as the 3lbs sex allowance would give her over it). The 4th is an OR 96 beaten 1 3/4 L.

Rpr ratings ( which are a few Lb below ORs) for the race are 1st 96, 2nd 97, 3rd 96, 4th 95.

She's a fair bit to go to find enough improvement to win a moderate Gp3 next time.

tryfix · 14-10-2017 2:22pm

Would be hoping for a win today from Zabriskie in the 2.25 at Newmarket. He's a big price considering he's already a winner and with a group 3 win here he could turn him into a valuable stallion. Even with just one group win he'd be set with his pedigree.

It's a quality little race all the same, but O'Brien has been knocking in the group wining Frankel's somewhat against the odds too.

Tried for the first half, started to get outpaced and didn't have a hard race. Might need the muck to be flying to be at his best.

'twas a very decent race.

tryfix · 16-10-2017 9:35pm

A trio of black type winners for Frankel in in the last few days with Aljezeera winning a listed 1m6f race today and Monarch's Glen winning a Gp 3 over 1m on Saturday + Rubilinda an American Frankel won a listed race over there on Saturday.

The first two tried and failed in better company but have come good in lesser pattern events. It's a bit of a pattern so far with the Frankels which could be cured by time.

Not a bad problem to have, winning too many minor pattern races. I feel Frankel falls into similar territory to Dubawi, both seem to produce bucket loads of promising horses who are 100+ performers but they often come up short on the really big days, although Dubawi obviously has a far better record of his stock making a success out of tackling group 1 company.

Time does a lot for the Dubawi.

Cracksman on Saturday could do a lot for the case that the Frankels need time, but I sure as hell will be backing against that particular hype machine on Saturday.

BumperD · 21-10-2017 4:04pm

Group 1 win for Cracksman.

BumperD · 21-10-2017 4:13pm

Tryfix, I think that monarchs glen was gelded Potentially very good horse for next season if he stays right.

NaiveMelodies · 21-10-2017 5:31pm

It's a special feeling when you get emotional about a sporting event. Incredible.
Hon the Frankel!

diomed · 22-10-2017 1:33am

The one doubt about Frankel is the small number of runners.
The Racing Post website gives 74 runners.
From articles on the internet the number of covers in his first year at stud, 2013, was predicted at 135 before his first breeding season started.
Another article gives 133 mares covered, 126 in foal, at a fee of UK125k.
Now he has two crops of racing age, 2016 and 2017.

My guess is about 250 live foals, but only 74 UK & IRE runners.
On the Japanese stats website JBIS he has 11 starters in 2014 and 2015 (22 progeny).

Looking at pedigreequery.com there are 209 Frankel progeny listed.
57 have earnings; 48 are described as "unraced"; 104 have no earning listed (probably mostly unraced)

I started going down the list of Frankel colts and fillies that had no earnings listed (I gave up after thirteen).
104 no earnings listed: born 2014 (32); 2015 (68); 2016 (3); 2017 (1)

This was what I found for the first few thirteen
8th of 10, only one race listed
no race record
6th of 9, only one race listed
no race record
no race record
GBP 3,059 (5,2,4,8,7,10) that is a 10th not a 1 and a 0
GBP 241 (5,11,11,4) those are two 11th, not four wins
no race record
no race record
no race record
no race record
no race record
no race record

tryfix · 22-10-2017 8:49pm

diomed wrote: »

The one doubt about Frankel is the small number of runners.
The Racing Post website gives 74 runners.
From articles on the internet the number of covers in his first year at stud, 2013, was predicted at 135 before his first breeding season started.
Another article gives 133 mares covered, 126 in foal, at a fee of UK125k.
Now he has two crops of racing age, 2016 and 2017.

My guess is about 250 live foals, but only 74 UK & IRE runners.
On the Japanese stats website JBIS he has 11 starters in 2014 and 2015 (22 progeny).

Looking at pedigreequery.com there are 209 Frankel progeny listed.
57 have earnings; 48 are described as "unraced"; 104 have no earning listed (probably mostly unraced)

I started going down the list of Frankel colts and fillies that had no earnings listed (I gave up after thirteen).
104 no earnings listed: born 2014 (32); 2015 (68); 2016 (3); 2017 (1)

This was what I found for the first few thirteen
8th of 10, only one race listed
no race record
6th of 9, only one race listed
no race record
no race record
GBP 3,059 (5,2,4,8,7,10) that is a 10th not a 1 and a 0
GBP 241 (5,11,11,4) those are two 11th, not four wins
no race record
no race record
no race record
no race record
no race record
no race record

I don't think Frankel is any different to other young sires in the amount of runners he's had.

In his peer group, Excelebration has had 78 runners and Nathaniel has had 88 runners. Given the retained value of Frankel's female stock, it's fair to say that there may be a few of his who have been held back off the track until they are up to not devaluing themselves on the track.

Also AFAIK there are a fair few experimental matings on Pedigreequery.com. I think the editing is a bit like wikipedia editing.

Francie Barrett · 27-10-2017 7:36pm

Goldrush impressive again there, wondering what they will do next with it.

uxiant · 27-10-2017 11:35pm

Francie Barrett wrote: »

Goldrush impressive again there, wondering what they will do next with it.

Wouldn't exactly say impressive. Looks like they went slow enough in front (only my visual impression though) with Aneen, who hasn't done anything since winning a maiden last year potentially the best horse in the race. Her form the last day wasn't anything special either beating handicapper Marshall Jennings receiving a ton of weight.

I'd look at getting her out early for some of those weak Group races for fillies and mares early in the spring as I don't think she has a very high ceiling. There's one on Lincoln day over a mile and then you could look at stepping up to 10f for the Group 3 at Naas which should suit on pedigree. If she does well there improving over the winter you could roll the dice and look at a weak Group 1 like the Tatts Gold Cup. Otherwise there are some other Group races for fillies over 10f like the Mooresbridge and one on Guineas weekend too.

diomed · 19-12-2017 2:25pm

Frankel's first jumps runner scores despite hitting 99-1 in running

https://www.racingpost.com/news/news/frankel-s-first-jumps-runner-scores-despite-hitting-100-1-in-running/312915

Gavin "shels" · 19-12-2017 5:49pm

Serious Frankel stamina after the last - booted it home!

diomed · 01-01-2018 11:07pm

Another Frankel 2yo wins: Ejtyah won at Chelmsford on the all weather on 17th December.

What is interesting about this winner, first time out, is her dam Darysina was bought for Eur 800,000, and the Frankel stud fee was UKP 125,000.
"Over the last three years, Brown has worked closely with Dr Stephen Harrison, a geneticist whose Canterbury-based company, Thoroughbred Genetics Limited, creates genetic profiles of horses."
Darysina's owner, retired millionaire Dr Philip Brown, made his fortune in science publishing.

How genetics can create the next superstar racehorse
https://sporthorse-data.com/articles/2017/09/27/how-genetics-can-create-next-superstar-racehorse

bit of a bogey · 02-01-2018 12:26am

A great site that you got me onto before Diomed is Pedigreequery.com.

But any idea what the family code means?
e.g. if you put in Ejtyah, it says its family is "1-e"?

EJTYAH (GB) b. F, 2015 {1-e} DP = 6-5-16-7-0 (34) DI = 1.27 CD = 0.29 - 1 Starts, 1 Wins, 0 Places, 0 Shows Career Earnings: £3,235

diomed · 02-01-2018 1:33am

bit of a bogey wrote: »

But any idea what the family code means?
e.g. if you put in Ejtyah, it says its family is "1-e"?

That is the Bruce Lowe family number.
Around 1900 he traced the winners of the English Derby, English Oaks, English St Leger on the dam line,
i.e. from the dam of each classic winner back to the previous dam, back to her dam, and all the way back to the mares in the first edition of the General Stud Book.
The GSB was produced by James Weatherby in the 1800s by going to thoroughbred owners, and collecting pedigree data from their private stud books, back to c. 1700.
The need for a general stud book was to eliminate doubt about the correctness of pedigrees.
A horse for sale could be claimed to be by a sire or dam, and there was no central reference a buyer could consult to check.

Bruce Lowe ended up with about 40 mares in the first GSB to which all the winners of those classic races traced.
The female family with the most classic winners he named family number 1, the female family with the next highest total he named family number 2, and so on up to about family number 42.
There are also American family numbers for USA horses and Colonial family numbers for Australian/New Zealand horses.

The Bruce Lowe number has no use these days, except as a way of keeping track in pedigrees.
It is not used, and should not be used, as an indicator of quality. It isn't.

If you look up a mare and she is in a book or website of family number 7, her dam should also be famno 7, her dam also famno 7, and all the dams back to around 1700.
Your pedigree database is in trouble if you have a mare from e.g. famno 7 and her dam is e.g. famno 22. Something is wrong in your records.

There are so many horses in some of the families (number 1) that the family was split into 1-a, 1-b, 1-c, 1-d and so on.

diomed · 02-01-2018 1:55am

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thoroughbred_breeding_theories

Thoroughbred families include the following:

Families 1-43 are described by Bruce Lowe's Breeding Racehorses by the Figure System
Families A1-A37 descend from Sanders Bruce's American Stud Book, with mares who cannot be traced to Weatherbys General Stud Book (GSB)
Families Ar1-Ar2 are Argentine families
Families B1-B26 trace directly to F.M. Prior's Half-Bred Studbook
Families C1-C16 are described in the Australian Stud Book as approved Colonial Families
Families C17-C33 descend from Australian and New Zealand mares who cannot be traced to the GSB
Families P1-P2 are Polish families

Bruce Lowe family numbers were the Bitcoin of thoroughbred breeding around 1900. Everyone was buying horses from family number 1.
About 25 years ago the craze was the Dosage Index.

These "systems" were adequately described by the people who produced them.
Unfortunately, the public misinterpreted the ideas and thought they were a way of picking winners.
That was not the intention.

bit of a bogey · 02-01-2018 2:36am

I bow again to your knowledge. Thank you.

GillLebowski · 24-01-2018 6:05am

diomed wrote: »

Frankel's first jumps runner scores despite hitting 99-1 in running

https://www.racingpost.com/news/news/frankel-s-first-jumps-runner-scores-despite-hitting-100-1-in-running/312915

Wins again yesterday at Wetherby...

tryfix · 27-01-2018 6:21pm

diomed wrote: »

Frankel's first jumps runner scores despite hitting 99-1 in running

https://www.racingpost.com/news/news/frankel-s-first-jumps-runner-scores-despite-hitting-100-1-in-running/312915

He should be a cracking sire of hurdlers. He himself could go on any ground while his full brother Noble Mission was transformed by soft going. Many of his stock have been solid stayers with plenty of cruising speed who lack a punch at the business end of the better races. He should be capable of producing loads of sequence winners around the gaff tracks.:pac:

Earendil · 07-02-2018 3:13pm

1st 3 Commentariolus (IRE)

Another one over jumps.

Itziger · 07-02-2018 5:42pm

Has the bould Frank got anything going to the Festival in the Cotswolds?

Itziger · 07-02-2018 5:42pm

Has the bould Frank got anything going to the Festival in the Cotswolds?

tryfix · 21-04-2018 11:49am

*Bump*

This could be a huge year for Frankel where he goes from being a very promising young sire into being a fully credible replacement for Galileo.

It all looks very promising for him with his blue blood crop of 3yos ( a filly by Zarkava and other easy winners winning in France as well as Elarqam and Nelson being in the classic picture and Cracksman now supposedly being the finished article at 4 )

My take on it would be to be wary of expecting improvement from the more typically flashy Frankel's. The ones with temperament issues that make great debuts and tend not to advance as well as could be expected. Also there's a big possibility that the Frankel's need Soft Ground to really shine.

Cracksman ( similar to Frankel's brother Noble Mission ) was transformed by Soft Ground last Autumn. I wouldn't oppose him on Soft Ground but would definitely do so on Good to firm.

Nelson is a very admirable horse. He's so genuine compared to some of the flashier Frankel's and especially in comparison to his Galileo three parts brother US Army Ranger. I still see him as Leger horse whose best form has come with cut in the ground.

Elarqam apparently fits the bill in not being one of the flashy types. He's plain enough being out of the gangly star mare Attraction. I'd hope he'd be a good solid performer like his dam. He too though has shown his best form on Soft Ground and his form needs to be stepped up on.

Itziger · 21-04-2018 1:54pm

tryfix wrote: »

*Bump*

This could be a huge year for Frankel where he goes from being a very promising young sire into being a fully credible replacement for Galileo.

It all looks very promising for him with his blue blood crop of 3yos ( a filly by Zarkava and other easy winners winning in France as well as Elarqam and Nelson being in the classic picture and Cracksman now supposedly being the finished article at 4 )

My take on it would be to be wary of expecting improvement from the more typically flashy Frankel's. The ones with temperament issues that make great debuts and tend not to advance as well as could be expected. Also there's a big possibility that the Frankel's need Soft Ground to really shine.

Cracksman ( similar to Frankel's brother Noble Mission ) was transformed by Soft Ground last Autumn. I wouldn't oppose him on Soft Ground but would definitely do so on Good to firm.

Nelson is a very admirable horse. He's so genuine compared to some of the flashier Frankel's and especially in comparison to his Galileo three parts brother US Army Ranger. I still see him as Leger horse whose best form has come with cut in the ground.

Elarqam apparently fits the bill in not being one of the flashy types. He's plain enough being out of the gangly star mare Attraction. I'd hope he'd be a good solid performer like his dam. He too though has shown his best form on Soft Ground and his form needs to be stepped up on.

Very, very early days to be putting that up. If we had a thread on every sire out there the place would be clogged up soon enough.

tryfix · 21-04-2018 3:18pm

Itziger wrote: »

Very, very early days to be putting that up. If we had a thread on every sire out there the place would be clogged up soon enough.

Ah shur I know that well. I was being more tongue in cheek than serious. Frankel would have to get by Dubawi and whatever Coolmore eventually replace Galileo with. There have been some better challenges to Galileo's throne than Frankel's first crop efforts. Sea The Stars and New Approach started very well and fell back.

It's interesting that O'Brien's patient introduction of his horses seems to have worked on his Frankel's while a lot of the other Frankels seem to burn brightly early and stop progressing.

diomed · 22-04-2018 3:51am

Frankel at stud
Fee pounds sterling: 2013 to 2017 125,000; 2018 175,000.

Great Britain leading sires 2017 by earnings: 4th with GBP 2,089,207.
Great Britain leading sires 2017 by wins: 45th with 46 wins.
Great Britain leading sires 2017 by winners: 37th with 32 winners.

Cracksman won GBP 1,353,004 all except GBP 6,469 of that in 2017. Eminent won GBP 437,527 all except GBP 5,175 of that in 2017.
Over 85% of Frankel offspring earnings in Great Britain in 2017 came from two horses.
If he didn’t have those two he would have been 43rd in the sire earning chart.
But he did have those two.

Can he produce more than two big earners?
Perhaps with four-year-olds running in 2018 alongside three-year-olds his earnings will have a more solid look.

22-04-2018 5:06pm

diomed wrote: »

Frankel at stud
Fee pounds sterling: 2013 to 2017 125,000; 2018 175,000.

Great Britain leading sires 2017 by earnings: 4th with GBP 2,089,207.
Great Britain leading sires 2017 by wins: 45th with 46 wins.
Great Britain leading sires 2017 by winners: 37th with 32 winners.

Cracksman won GBP 1,353,004 all except GBP 6,469 of that in 2017. Eminent won GBP 437,527 all except GBP 5,175 of that in 2017.
Over 85% of Frankel offspring earnings in Great Britain in 2017 came from two horses.
If he didn’t have those two he would have been 43rd in the sire earning chart.
But he did have those two.

Can he produce more than two big earners?
Perhaps with four-year-olds running in 2018 alongside three-year-olds his earnings will have a more solid look.

Sires like Frankel are global. Cracksman isn't even his biggest earner - Soul Stirring is.

Quick check of RP says 12 progeny with earnings over £100K which is good going considering we've only seen two crops. For fair comparison Nathaniel has 4 and Helmet 6, would be surprised if any sire in the same position has more.

It doesn't matter how you crunch the numbers he's been a success to date and I suspect will go from strength to strength.

tryfix · 22-04-2018 9:12pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Sires like Frankel are global. Cracksman isn't even his biggest earner - Soul Stirring is.

Quick check of RP says 12 progeny with earnings over £100K which is good going considering we've only seen two crops. For fair comparison Nathaniel has 4 and Helmet 6, would be surprised if any sire in the same position has more.

It doesn't matter how you crunch the numbers he's been a success to date and I suspect will go from strength to strength.

Nathaniel and Helmet stood at €20,000 and £8,000 respectively in their first stallion seasons in the UK. They are the wrong kind of benchmarks to be measuring Frankel against. The quality of mare they were breeding to wasn't within an asses roar of the star studded books of mares that Frankel has been servicing since he went to stud.

The only stallion that went to stud in Europe at such a high first season stud fee was the great Sadlers Wells who sired 6 individual Group 1 winners in his first crop.

Sea The Stars as a first crop stallion was standing at a tier just below the level Frankel and Sadlers Wells started at. That's the kind of benchmark that Frankel should be measured against.

antietam · 22-04-2018 9:31pm

tryfix wrote: »

Nathaniel and Helmet stood at €20,000 and £8,000 respectively in their first stallion seasons in the UK. They are the wrong kind of benchmarks to be measuring Frankel against. The quality of mare they were breeding to wasn't within an asser of the star studded books of mares that Frankel has been servicing since he went to stud.

The only stallion that went to stud in Europe at such a high first season stud fee was the great Sadlers Wells who sired 6 individual Group 1 winners in his first crop.

Sea The Stars as a first crop stallion was standing at a tier just below the level Frankel and Sadlers Wells started at. That's the kind of benchmark that Frankel should be measured against.

Facts based state Every COLT/FILLY bred by Frankel costing £300,000 your return is - BIG TIME

tryfix · 22-04-2018 9:49pm

antietam wrote: »

Facts based state Every COLT/FILLY bred by Frankel costing £300,000 your return is - BIG TIME

Yep, he's making loads of money for breeders. All he has to do is to keep throwing the odd star as well as a few of the hyped ones that eventually flop. That'll be enough to keep the money churning around him and because he's so well bred himself and his mates will be top drawer, he should have no problem keeping the mega stud fee going.

diomed · 23-04-2018 8:50pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Sires like Frankel are global. Cracksman isn't even his biggest earner - Soul Stirring is. .

Yes, it is an advantage having a runner in Japan.
Deep Impact runners earned €317 million since he began in 2010.

tryfix · 30-04-2018 1:33pm

Cracksman looking pretty awesome in the Ganay and ensuring that Frankel has at least 1 GP1 winner this year.

Finishing down the field was another Frankel colt Finche, who after winning a group 2 last year hasn't progressed. Finche is a big and not too well coordinated type, he's as typical of the Frankels as Cracksman is untypical of them. It's astonishing how much better Cracksman is now travelling through his races compared to this time last year when he looked to lack pace.

uxiant · 30-04-2018 1:58pm

tryfix wrote: »

Cracksman looking pretty awesome in the Ganay and ensuring that Frankel has at least 1 GP1 winner this year.

Finishing down the field was another Frankel colt Finche, who after winning a group 2 last year hasn't progressed. Finche is a big and not too well coordinated type, he's as typical of the Frankels as Cracksman is untypical of them. It's astonishing how much better Cracksman is now travelling through his races compared to this time last year when he looked to lack pace.

I know little about the biomechanics of horses but does Cracksman not have a strange action too? Looks quite awkward and uncoordinated to me but obviously it doesn't stop him running extremely quickly.

circadian · 30-04-2018 2:34pm

uxiant wrote: »

I know little about the biomechanics of horses but does Cracksman not have a strange action too? Looks quite awkward and uncoordinated to me but obviously it doesn't stop him running extremely quickly.

Looks like a huge stride until the final sprint, can fairly move when he gets going.

tryfix · 30-04-2018 9:22pm

uxiant wrote: »

I know little about the biomechanics of horses but does Cracksman not have a strange action too? Looks quite awkward and uncoordinated to me but obviously it doesn't stop him running extremely quickly.

I no expert either but I think Cracksman's action is quite normal. It's just that he had a high knee action compared to the straight knee flowing action that makes some other horses float over the ground. You'll see plenty of horse like him with bent knees apparently grabbing the ground as they gallop while others extend their leg below the knee out into a perfectly straight line. The optics aren't great but it doesn't hinder him at all and his action is probably best suited to softer going.

antietam · 07-05-2018 11:30pm

Most overrated horse in history by the anti Irish [Time Form] as they have a serious agenda based on the fact they never ever mentioned the plane full of drugs and have been rewarded to register horses beyond belief aka 2k Guineas win by Frankel, staggering as they the own the breeding rights.Frankel is ordinary based on times taken Sea The Stars was 8L faster in absolute identical conditions.

uxiant · 08-05-2018 12:58pm

antietam wrote: »

Most overrated horse in history by the anti Irish [Time Form] as they have a serious agenda based on the fact they never ever mentioned the plane full of drugs and have been rewarded to register horses beyond belief aka 2k Guineas win by Frankel, staggering as they the own the breeding rights.Frankel is ordinary based on times taken Sea The Stars was 8L faster in absolute identical conditions.

Frankel ran the first 5/6f of the Guineas at sprinter speed and finished slow. If he ran the first part of the race more efficiently he would have almost certainly ran a quicker time.

The times of the other races on the 2011 Guineas card were 4.36 slower than standard on average. On the 2009 Guineas card times were 2.62 slower than standard on average. This suggests Frankel ran his Guineas in slower conditions too.

That's why you can't compare times without context. Race pace and conditions are going to massively influence the overall time.

Clique · 08-05-2018 4:19pm

antietam wrote: »

Most overrated horse in history by the anti Irish [Time Form] as they have a serious agenda based on the fact they never ever mentioned the plane full of drugs and have been rewarded to register horses beyond belief aka 2k Guineas win by Frankel, staggering as they the own the breeding rights.Frankel is ordinary based on times taken Sea The Stars was 8L faster in absolute identical conditions.

Jesus

:rolleyes:

Loved both horses and enjoyed them. Incomparable by the difference in how each finished off their races. Frankel kicked on and lòoked visually more impressive but STS just done enough. That comment though is ridiculous

antietam · 09-05-2018 7:53pm

uxiant wrote: »

Frankel ran the first 5/6f of the Guineas at sprinter speed and finished slow. If he ran the first part of the race more efficiently he would have almost certainly ran a quicker time.

The times of the other races on the 2011 Guineas card were 4.36 slower than standard on average. On the 2009 Guineas card times were 2.62 slower than standard on average. This suggests Frankel ran his Guineas in slower conditions too.

That's why you can't compare times without context. Race pace and conditions are going to massively influence the overall time.

If you want fact on 2k I will give you fact,very slow time based on what he was against and his sectionals were poor for the last 2f.HE BEAT NOTHING in 2K as form has shown,please prove me wrong [based on absolute fact].How can a horse beating a 101 be rated 10lbs above a horse who beat a 115 going away ,MY GOD.

antietam · 09-05-2018 8:07pm

uxiant wrote: »

Frankel ran the first 5/6f of the Guineas at sprinter speed and finished slow. If he ran the first part of the race more efficiently he would have almost certainly ran a quicker time.

The times of the other races on the 2011 Guineas card were 4.36 slower than standard on average. On the 2009 Guineas card times were 2.62 slower than standard on average. This suggests Frankel ran his Guineas in slower conditions too.

That's why you can't compare times without context. Race pace and conditions are going to massively influence the overall time.

Frankel is not about fractions he is serious hype based on times and imo a dud a stud based on the ultimate mares he has had,A ****ING DUD based on return to value.

09-05-2018 10:49pm

antietam wrote: »

If you want fact on 2k I will give you fact,very slow time based on what he was against and his sectionals were poor for the last 2f.

That's exactly what he said isn't it? The point being that he won and won well despite running free and the sectionals being all wrong.

But you are right, he was a joke of a horse and it's all hype, he never beat anything and he's been a flop at stud. Your 'facts' have helped us all see the light.

tryfix · 10-05-2018 6:37pm

O'Brien's the man for training the Frankels. Rostropovich joins Nelson to become both 2yo and 3yo group winners. Not so sure what's his suitable trip, with a DI of 1.07 he reminds me of a previous O'Brien Dee Stakes winner Magical who was more of a miler than anything else, even though he did win a Breeders Cup Turf at 1m 4f.

Rostropovich's win is also a good one for Nelson's Derby chances as it enhances the probability that O'Brien has found a way to keep his Frankel's improving with age. I think that basically he treats them as if they were Galileo's which is basically what they are, well the ones O'Brien trains are. O'Brien is very likely to deliver a Classic winning Frankel as all Coolmore seem to have to do is use their breeding rights to Frankel to send some of their proven high class broodmares to him. Sending You'resothrilling the dam of Gleneagles, Happily, Marvelous etc would seem like a good bet to produce a Gp 1 winner.

Eminent makes his return tomorrow in the Huxley at Chester, he's unlikely to find a softer Gp2 this year.

Francie Barrett · 11-05-2018 2:44pm

Eminent was beyond awful there.

The Frankel Foals Watch Thread!

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