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Need some advice on my son

12357

Comments

  • #202
    kildare lad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,010 ✭✭✭kildare lad


    There's nothing wrong with sending a 14 year old to do a bit of work , I was doing it myself at that age, it creates good work ethic and it'll teach him if he wants anything he's to work for it. I've a young lad whos 12 although he's to young to work I make him to stuff around the house. All mine dad's and mum's families were out working at really young ages and it never did them any harm


  • #203
    atilladehun
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭atilladehun


    OP, I think your instinct was correct. It's a perfect age to get a little job. The one you've picked out sounds spot on. I'd keep insisting. It doesn't have to be an argument but I'd be firm. Fair play to you.


  • #204
    patspost
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 251 ✭✭patspost


    You may have both backed yourself into corners. How about a compromise, maybe suggested by the kids mother, of him working 1 day a week.


  • #205
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Mark Hamill wrote: »
    OP created this thread specifically looking for judgement. Judgement was made, and advice given, based on the fairly scant details given, so a poster looked through the OPs other posts to see if a more complete idea of the OPs mindset could be determined and if that might influence the advice given.
    Expecting everyone to just agree with them is as patronising to us as the OP was to his kid.


    I find it hilarious the amount of posters here who completely support the idea of the kid working as it will give them life lessons, maturity and responsibility and yet are shocked, shocked I tell you, at the idea that maybe the parent needs to learn a life lesson in this case.


    This doesn't equally apply to you how?

    Most have given the same advice about the kid and the parent regardless if they believe in kids having a summer job or not. So that's a strawman.

    All but one did that without having to drag up old posts and make personal comments. So it's completely unnecessary. As is attacking each other.


  • #206
    GarIT
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,671 ✭✭✭GarIT


    kildare lad wrote: »
    There's nothing wrong with sending a 14 year old to do a bit of work , I was doing it myself at that age, it creates good work ethic and it'll teach him if he wants anything he's to work for it. I've a young lad whos 12 although he's to young to work I make him to stuff around the house. All mine dad's and mum's families were out working at really young ages and it never did them any harm

    Sending a 14 year old out to work then isn't the same as sending a 14 year old out to work now.

    And there are numerous studies proving that yes it did do harm. You would have gotten better grades and done better in your future career if you hadn't been working at 14.


  • #207
    Treppen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,621 ✭✭✭Treppen


    Mark Hamill wrote: »
    OP created this thread specifically looking for judgement. Judgement was made, and advice given, based on the fairly scant details given, so a poster looked through the OPs other posts to see if a more complete idea of the OPs mindset could be determined and if that might influence the advice given.
    Expecting everyone to just agree with them is as patronising to us as the OP was to his kid.


    I find it hilarious the amount of posters here who completely support the idea of the kid working as it will give them life lessons, maturity and responsibility and yet are shocked, shocked I tell you, at the idea that maybe the parent needs to learn a life lesson in this case.


    This doesn't equally apply to you how?

    Bringing stuff across from other threads is a dick move.

    Each post on its own merits.


  • #208
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    GarIT wrote: »
    Sending a 14 year old out to work then isn't the same as sending a 14 year old out to work now.

    And there are numerous studies proving that yes it did do harm. You would have gotten better grades and done better in your future career if you hadn't been working at 14.

    Numerous studies say the opposite too.


  • #209
    GarIT
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,671 ✭✭✭GarIT


    beauf wrote: »
    Numerous studies say the opposite too.


    I haven't researched it heavily, but I haven't come across any that come to that conclusion exactly. The balance is heavily in favour of not working until eduction is finished. Except for summer internships in valuable indiustries.


  • #210
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Didn't look very hard, I've spent zero time researching it. Just curious based on your comments and found it lots saying the exact opposite. That you didn't find ANY and I found it immediately with zero effort, suggests you were only searching for terms matching the basis you are looking for. These are not small studies either.
    ..Researchers used data from the Statistics Canada Youth in Transition Survey. This represented 246,661 15-year-old Canadian teenagers, looking at their work history over a 10-year period beginning at age 15 and ending at 25 in 2009.

    "Adolescent labour has been stigmatized as exploitative with many parents opting to put their kids in summer camp rather than summer jobs," says Seidel. "However, our research shows that working can offer educational and developmental opportunities that prepare adolescents for the real world."...

    I'm not saying one way is right and one way is wrong. It depends entirely on the individual and their circumstance. But logically it makes no sense that experience, after you leave school, suddenly is positive experience and but prior to that, at its a negative. Its not like all kids or adults mature the same either.


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  • #211
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Its a bit like sports. Some parents are very negative about group sports, due to their own poor experience of it as a child or no personal interest in it. Obviously it doesn't suit everyone no one says its should.


  • #212
    cannotlogin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,172 ✭✭✭cannotlogin


    I think your 100% right OP.

    I refuse to hire graduates now who haven't had a part time job in school or college, reason being a lot of them who haven't struggle badly in the workplace. Can't follow instructions, or won't, not able to make phone calls, or communicate face to face, strong preference for email, struggle to interact with customers and colleagues, can't take ownership or responsibility etc.

    A part time job for teenagers is a great idea. This is also close to home, with someone he knows and is only 2 days a week, it's a great way to get him started.


  • #213
    Lefty Bicek
    Registered Users Posts: 1,625 ✭✭✭Lefty Bicek


    GarIT wrote: »
    I haven't researched it heavily, but I haven't come across any that come to that conclusion exactly. The balance is heavily in favour of not working until eduction is finished. Except for summer internships in valuable indiustries.

    This thread is about a summer job for a teenager. Conflating that issue, with educational and career outcomes for third-level students who have to work because mummy and daddy couldn't afford to pay them an allowance... is nonsense.

    Anyway, do you comprehend that for a lot of people, it is not possible to complete education without working to sustain themselves ? Simply not possible. Seriously, do you not know that ?

    Better for them to get a taste of work before they have to.

    Do you comprehend that not everyone is interested in going to college anyway ? Some people just aren't cut out for it, or are not interested in it.

    Better for them to get a taste of work before they have to.

    Many of them will go on to make a decent living, doing practical skilled work they can be proud of. And which nerdy Little Little Lord Fauntleroy's, in their 'summer internships in valuable industries' need, just the same as everyone else.


  • #214
    GarIT
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,671 ✭✭✭GarIT


    Lefty Bicek wrote: »
    This thread is about a summer job for a teenager. Conflating that issue, with educational and career outcomes for third-level students who have to work because mummy and daddy couldn't afford to pay them an allowance... is nonsense.

    Anyway, do you comprehend that for a lot of people, it is not possible to complete education without working to sustain themselves ? Simply not possible. Seriously, do you not know that ?

    Better for them to get a taste of work before they have to.

    Do you comprehend that not everyone is interested in going to college anyway ? Some people just aren't cut out for it, or are not interested in it.

    Better for them to get a taste of work before they have to.

    Many of them will go on to make a decent living, doing practical skilled work they can be proud of. And which nerdy Little Little Lord Fauntleroy's, in their 'summer internships in valuable industries' need, just the same as everyone else.

    You're making a lot of nonsense assumptions there. Nowhere did I specify college education only.

    I obviously understand not everyone can support their kids through college, I just said if they can, on average it leads to better educational and employment outcomes.

    After you going on about keeping it to about this specific case you go on about sustaining themselves. He is 14, his parents have a legal requirement to sustain him until 18. He isn't going out to put food on the table he is wasting a third of his summer working for peanuts.

    And I do comprehend not everyone wants to go college. I considered the benefits of a trade, or starting my own PC repair company. But decided against it and went to college. I'm not saying everyone has to make the same decisions as me. This kid doesn't want this job so I'm not sure how wanting or not wanting to go to college in the future is relevant. He has to be forced into working longer hours than allowed for less than minimum wage now in case he doesn't want to go to college later?


  • #215
    Lefty Bicek
    Registered Users Posts: 1,625 ✭✭✭Lefty Bicek


    GarIT wrote: »
    He is 14, his parents have a legal requirement to sustain him until 18.

    They also have to prepare him for the world. Which means the discipline of employment, for most.

    You've already been told that employers see value in that experience.

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=113593215&postcount=213

    You know he's fourteen, yet you still believe adulthood is ten years away for him. This is where you may be confused.
    ...he is wasting a third of his summer working for peanuts.

    How would you know that ?

    I did it, and a lot of my friends did it. We had a great time. Wasn't a waste of anything. It was valuable in it's own right, and prepared me for what I needed to do to get through uni ten years later.
    And I do comprehend not everyone wants to go college. I considered the benefits of a trade

    You didn't really though, did you ?
    I do have an aversion to physical work,

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=113574353&postcount=90


    Apart from which, you told us a lot here -
    The majority of people my age I know didn't start working until after college.

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=113576976&postcount=172
    This kid doesn't want this job...

    This 'kid' needs to learn that there is only one boss in any establishment, and it isn't him.
    He has to be forced into working longer hours than allowed for less than minimum wage now in case he doesn't want to go to college later?

    Why invent such convolutions ?

    I'm certain that people reading my posts objectively would see that my point is that a taste of the disciplines of employment stand to anyone in their adult years whether they find themselves at work, college, or combining both.

    Emotively, you say 'forced', others more sensibly say 'parented'.

    He's not Oliver Twist, he'll be fine.

    And whether he becomes a plumber or a quantum physicist, the experience of employment - and it is not onerous - will stand to him.

    There is more to being a successful individual than 'good grades'.


  • #216
    GarIT
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,671 ✭✭✭GarIT


    Lefty Bicek wrote: »
    They also have to prepare him for the world. Which means the discipline of employment, for most.

    You've already been told that employers see value in that experience.

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=113593215&postcount=213

    You know he's fourteen, yet you still believe adulthood is ten years away for him. This is where you may be confused.



    How would you know that ?

    I did it, and a lot of my friends did it. We had a great time. Wasn't a waste of anything. It was valuable in it's own right, and prepared me for what I needed to do to get through uni ten years later.



    You didn't really though, did you ?



    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=113574353&postcount=90


    Apart from which, you told us a lot here -



    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=113576976&postcount=172



    This 'kid' needs to learn that there is only one boss in any establishment, and it isn't him.



    Why invent such convolutions ?

    I'm certain that people reading my posts objectively would see that my point is that a taste of the disciplines of employment stand to anyone in their adult years whether they find themselves at work, college, or combining both.

    Emotively, you say 'forced', others more sensibly say 'parented'.

    He's not Oliver Twist, he'll be fine.

    And whether he becomes a plumber or a quantum physicist, the experience of employment - and it is not onerous - will stand to him.

    There is more to being a successful individual than 'good grades'.

    And I'm an employer who doesn't value that experience. Completely disagree with the poster you referenced. We provide phones but as staff to stick to email as much as possible for a clear written record.

    I know he's working for peanuts because the OP said so. He is getting almost 30% less than minimum wage.

    I did consider a trade. I considered working as an electrician, liked the idea of setting my own hours. I couldn't handle bricklaying or footing turf, I'm not hiding that.

    You're twisting words. He is being forced if he isn't been given a choice. You could call it parenting too, but I'd call how it was handled bad parenting.

    And I disagree about it standing to him, I've worked a few minimum wage jobs where the goal for almost all the staff was doing as little as possible without getting caught. I held onto that attitude into my first job out of college and it didn't do me any favours.

    He's 14, not 16 and it's during a pandemic, it won't do him any harm to wait a year or two.


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  • #217
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Really into flat earther territory here.

    If you haven't seen or experienced it. Then its not true.


  • #218
    Lefty Bicek
    Registered Users Posts: 1,625 ✭✭✭Lefty Bicek


    GarIT wrote: »
    And I'm an employer who doesn't value that experience. Completely disagree with the poster you referenced. We provide phones but as staff to stick to email as much as possible for a clear written record.

    Your attitude is absolutely the minority one.
    I know he's working for peanuts because the OP said so. He is getting almost 30% less than minimum wage.

    I didn't say otherwise, and I believe I said earlier that people should be paid properly for the work they do.

    Still, great experience.
    I did consider a trade. I considered working as an electrician, liked the idea of setting my own hours. I couldn't handle bricklaying for footing turf, I'm not hiding that.

    Most electricians don't set their own hours, and bricklayers haven't 'footed turf' (!) in aeons, if they ever did.
    You're twisting words. He is being forced if he isn't been given a choice. You could call it parenting too, but I'd call how it was handled bad parenting.

    How it was handled is separate from the principle of the thing. I believe I also said earlier that it could have been handled better.

    Nevertheless, there is no necessary contradiction between 'parenting' and 'forcing/insisting/demanding', simply because it's not an equal relationship.
    And I disagree about it standing to him...

    Presumptuous in the extreme, unless you know him.
    I've worked a few minimum wage jobs where the goal for almost all the staff was doing as little as possible without getting caught.

    You're simply painting a picture that you wish to paint.
    I held onto that attitude into my first job out of college and it didn't do me any favours.

    And look at you now ! It wasn't catastrophic after all, was it ?
    He's 14, not 16 and it's during a pandemic, it won't do him any harm to wait a year or two.

    It won't do him any harm to get on with it either. Pandemic or not. If your argument was strong enough, you wouldn't need to refer to the pandemic at all.


  • #219
    Mark Hamill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,783 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    beauf wrote: »
    Most have given the same advice about the kid and the parent regardless if they believe in kids having a summer job or not. So that's a strawman.

    All but one did that without having to drag up old posts and make personal comments. So it's completely unnecessary. As is attacking each other.

    What is a strawman?

    And criticism based on 30 seconds of reading OP's public posts is an "attack"? In this day and age, when what you post online is usually examined before a job interview?
    I don't think it's the OPs 14 year old son who needs to mature.


  • #220
    GarIT
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,671 ✭✭✭GarIT


    For clarity. I'm not saying there is no value to it. Especially during the summer when it won't have an impact on education. But it's during the worst crisis in generations, he is only 14, he doesn't want to do it, the conditions being offered are so poor they are illegal, there is also value to having more time enjoying your childhood. I don't think the possible benefits outweight the negatives of it.

    And with that I'm going to leave this thread because no new points are being made. We're not going to get anywhere and it has descended to insults being thrown. There are better things to be doing on this fine bank holiday weekend. It would probably be more beneficial for us to get off the internet that it would be for either side of the equation for the kid.


  • #221
    Mark Hamill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,783 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    Treppen wrote: »
    Bringing stuff across from other threads is a dick move.

    Each post on its own merits.

    Why is it a dick move?


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  • #222
    Lefty Bicek
    Registered Users Posts: 1,625 ✭✭✭Lefty Bicek


    GarIT wrote: »
    For clarity. I'm not saying there is no value to it. Especially during the summer when it won't have an impact on education. But it's during the worst crisis in generations, he is only 14, he doesn't want to do it, the conditions being offered are so poor they are illegal, there is also value to having more time enjoying your childhood. I don't think the possible benefits outweight the negatives of it.

    And with that I'm going to leave this thread because no new points are being made. We're not going to get anywhere and it has descended to insults being thrown. There are better things to be doing on this fine bank holiday weekend. It would probably be more beneficial for us to get off the internet that it would be for either side of the equation for the kid.

    You have a point.

    I wish you and everyone else here a nice and relaxing weekend.


  • #223
    Truthvader
    Registered Users Posts: 1,826 ✭✭✭Truthvader


    €40 per day is €200 per week. Most 14 year olds outside of the drug trade would be well happy. Unless of course they already have access to €200 per week in which case there is a whole different problem


  • #224
    freshpopcorn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,840 ✭✭✭✭freshpopcorn


    Truthvader wrote: »
    €40 per day is €200 per week. Most 14 year olds outside of the drug trade would be well happy. Unless of course they already have access to €200 per week in which case there is a whole different problem

    It's a two day a week thing from my understanding.

    From what I can tell the OP hasn't been online since Thursday evening and I'm unsure if there account is even active anymore.


  • #225
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Mark Hamill wrote: »
    What is a strawman?

    And criticism based on 30 seconds of reading OP's public posts is an "attack"? In this day and age, when what you post online is usually examined before a job interview?
    I don't think it's the OPs 14 year old son who needs to mature.

    This isn't a job interview. It's a forum with its own code of behaviour and rules. No one else making the same point did what you did. There no point in explaining this further.


  • #226
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    GarIT wrote: »
    For clarity. I'm not saying there is no value to it. ..

    In fairness you pretty much did. No matter how you qualify that. But it's been interesting to read about the legality of it and the different mindsets.


  • #227
    challengemaster
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,930 ✭✭✭✭challengemaster


    beauf wrote: »
    All but one did that without having to drag up old posts and make personal comments. So it's completely unnecessary. As is attacking each other.

    Is the OP not also making biased personal comments about their son for the sole purpose of having people on the internet agree with their point of view?

    "Doesn't do much around the house"
    "Hate seeing them on the xbox all day"

    The son isn't on here giving his input, we're judging "what's best" based on what the OP said.

    Someone looked at the OP's post history. While the way it was worded may seem malicious, the information seems pertinent nonetheless.

    If the other guy looked at the OP's posting history and found he was an incredibly successful entrepreneur at a young age, everyone on here would be piling into the "look at that he clearly knows best for his child about these things".


  • #228
    riclad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,184 ✭✭✭riclad


    I would not ask a 14 year old to work, there's only one chance to be young. Everyone is under stress, young people cummunicate by phone also online gaming xbox is a way to be in a group with friends,
    No one is going to school. You are basically
    Cutting off all his social life in the middle of a pandemic I went to school til I was 18, I did not work apart from a few weeks until I left school
    I think you are being very cruel and thoughtless
    Teens go through a phase of growing up, they seek to be close to friends ,
    Its a biological process, our brains develop until
    We are 17 , 18 years old
    I understand in rural areas kids do some work on farms or do chores etc
    I do not think any 14 year old should be forced to work especially at this time
    Give him back the xbox and the phone
    Maybe say if he wants to work a few days a week it's up to him
    I think 14 is way too early to be thinking of developing a work ethic
    Even in America most kids do no work before they are 16 we are all in lock down
    I presume most young people talk with friends
    over social media apps and online games like fortnite also some friends maybe outside the 5k limit so it seems wrong to me to take his phone at this time


  • #229
    riclad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,184 ✭✭✭riclad


    Employers do not care if someone works in a warehouse for a few weeks, also forcing him to work is not good parenting, let him enjoy his childhood and make friends and try and Get thru the pandemic it's 2020 teens social networks are based on apps and gaming
    and he can't meet up in school


  • #230
    Tom Mann Centuria
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,079 ✭✭✭✭Tom Mann Centuria


    This constant need to push adulthood on kids earlier and earlier, so they'll be good little worker drones at whatever they're told is important at the time for "business" is quite depressing.

    His primary "job" at the moment is to learn, discover, have fun and by what op says he's doing well in his primary job, he's doing well at school.

    If he decided he wanted a job, great more power to him, or that his dad said, there's a job lined up if you fancy it, fine. It's how an adult would discuss something with another adult.

    Not this fait accompli though where the son who's expected to be mature was not allowed to make any kind of mature decision other than the one his dad wants.

    I won't elaborate on my opinion of the incentive/punishment aspect of trying to make him do it, except to say it stinks. All imo of course.

    Oh well, give me an easy life and a peaceful death.



  • #231
    CivilCybil
    Registered Users Posts: 186 ✭✭CivilCybil


    OP parent of a teen here.
    They started working in a family business the summer they turned 13. Just a few hours a couple of times a week. When they were 16 they got an official, tax paying job.
    Got fed up of it a year in and school work was piling on so packed it in. I warned them that the summer was fast approaching and no job=no money. But they went ahead and other than my initial reaction I said nothing. Covid 19 hit and now they are jobless, starting summer holidays with no prospect of a job and regretting giving it up.
    So we agreed I would pay a set amount per week with general jobs around the house to be done (as always) and a few bigger jobs too. Nothing major. Cleaning windows, washing cars etc.
    A good work ethic is important. However as teenagers they are starting to resent parental influence and want to be treated more like adults even though they're kids.
    So to just organise the job and tell him he's doing it, I think his reaction is pretty much to be expected.
    You have to start treating teenagers in a way that lets them know they have choices but there are consequences for those choices.

    Had it been me I'd have broached the topic with him, said the offer was there and to think about it. If he said no then I'd have said grand, but you're not doing nothing all summer so we can agree a rate of pocket money but these are the chores that need to be done.
    If he didn't want to do that then no money, no credit for phone, nothing. It can be earned. He has the time and the ability.
    But it's his choice and he'd feel in control

    As the damage is done I'd give him back his Xbox, tell him you don't want to be falling out with him over it and agree to draw a line under it.
    Outline his choices
    1) he works for friend for 80quid a week
    2) he does x chores at home for y money
    3) no chores done, no money or treats or extras.

    He might not like the choices but he'll know he has to pick one and at least it'll be his decision as to how he spends his summer.
    Just hold firm if he chooses no chores and don't give him any money unless he agrees to do something in return.


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  • #232
    Wanderer19
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 258 ✭✭Wanderer19


    Mark Hamill wrote: »
    If you don't discuss his actual points then you aren't even part of the debate.
    Swearing at people shows a complete lack of respect for them. I won't engage with that type of person.

    If you had read the full thread you would have known I had read his points and gave my own - and that was his response - he doesn't like my opinion so thinks it's ok to swear at me.


  • #233
    Mark Hamill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,783 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    beauf wrote: »
    This isn't a job interview.

    No, its a discussion forum. How exactly can you have a discussion if you aren't allowed to look at everything relevant that the OP posted.
    Calling "attack" because the OP isn't agreed with is immature.
    beauf wrote: »
    It's a forum with its own code of behaviour and rules. No one else making the same point did what you did. There no point in explaining this further.


    I wasn't the one who looked up the OPs other posts.


  • #234
    Mark Hamill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,783 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    Wanderer19 wrote: »
    Swearing at people shows a complete lack of respect for them. I won't engage with that type of person.

    If you had read the full thread you would have known I had read his points and gave my own - and that was his response - he doesn't like my opinion so thinks it's ok to swear at me.

    Swearing doesn't make something disrespectful, that is a very childish way of looking at it.
    I have read the full thread, and while you did respond a few times, it kinda looks like you have been backed into a corner and are trying to escape under faux-offense.
    But, sure, lets just agree that you are taking an entirely mature position here, not wanting to talk to people who use naughty words and lets get back to the issue being discussed:
    Wanderer19 wrote:
    Entitlement and worth are 2 different things (other posters mentioned worth).

    He may be 'entitled' to minimum wage, but without experience whose to say he can do the job asked, or will be punctual, respectful etc.?

    What does that have to do with anything? Who's to say anyone hired for any job can actually do it, or will be punctual or respectful? They're still entitled to the minimum wage - that's the law. It's not conditional.


  • #235
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Mark Hamill wrote: »
    No, its a discussion forum. How exactly can you have a discussion if you aren't allowed to look at everything relevant that the OP posted...

    Everyone else managed it.
    Mark Hamill wrote: »
    Calling "attack" because the OP isn't agreed with is immature...

    The thread had degenerated into personal attacks fro posters on both sides (if there are sides). I said it was unnecessary.
    beauf wrote: »
    All but one did that without having to drag up old posts and make personal comments. So it's completely unnecessary..... As is attacking each other.

    ...if thats what you were referring to hard to know, with no context.


  • #236
    spurious
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 27,270 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    I was thinking about this last night (I know, 'get a life').

    Both parties seem a bit entrenched now.
    Would there be any possibility the lad could be even now given some choice in the matter, rather than be forced into it?
    Could the godfather come up with another offer? Four mornings or four afternoons for the same money?
    Would there be another 'friend' who might need some work doing and he/she could approach the young lad?

    I know from teaching there are a number of strategies to get teenagers to do what you want in such a way that they think it was their idea all the time (I know, mess with their heads... or what?).

    Even if he is actually enjoying the job, at 14 it takes a great deal of maturity after all the protesting to admit that he might actually like it.


  • #237
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 3,656 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    spurious wrote: »
    I was thinking about this last night (I know, 'get a life').

    Both parties seem a bit entrenched now.
    Would there be any possibility the lad could be even now given some choice in the matter, rather than be forced into it?
    Could the godfather come up with another offer? Four mornings or four afternoons for the same money?
    Would there be another 'friend' who might need some work doing and he/she could approach the young lad?

    I know from teaching there are a number of strategies to get teenagers to do what you want in such a way that they think it was their idea all the time (I know, mess with their heads... or what?).

    Even if he is actually enjoying the job, at 14 it takes a great deal of maturity after all the protesting to admit that he might actually like it.

    I think the OP is long gone off this thread. I don't blame him. He got a lot of abuse :(


  • #238
    Homelander
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,439 ✭✭✭Homelander


    Jesus, he's 14, not 4, and a few hours work is certainly no harm. He's not being asked to go coal-mining 40 hours a week, some people really need to get a grip.

    I'm in my 30's and almost all of my friends started working at 14/15. Most of us had to be "forced" but once we started earning our own money and understood what "working" was all about, you'd never go back.

    One or two would've even been 13/14, with parents who ran their own business.

    If you left it entirely up to the kid he'd probably be sitting at home in a dark room playing the Xbox until he was 20. The vast majority of kids need that first push and there is nothing whatsoever wrong with that.

    People arguing therapeutic approaches that "convince the teenager it was his idea" - eh, sorry, just no. How about "You're getting a job and that's that".


  • #239
    spurious
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 27,270 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    Homelander wrote: »
    J How about "You're getting a job and that's that".

    Because that was a tremendous success.


  • #240
    riclad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,184 ✭✭✭riclad


    I got no push from no one, I went to school, got my leaving
    cert and got a job. I read an article today. It says as teens grow up their brains are developing having constant contact with friends is absolutely crucial From what I read nowadays kids talk on xbox live while gaming
    and using apps on a phone. When I was 14, I was growing
    up going to school I did not think of getting a job
    Doing the leaving cert is hard work. I would maybe consider asking him in two years if he wants to work
    during summer holidays. Ie it's his choice, forcing
    Kids to work Is a bad idea. Give him back his phone
    and the xbox and let him have a normal life,
    or as close to normal considering the lockdown rules
    we are all under. If he needs extra money in 2 years
    time maybe he, ll get a part time job.
    Part of growing up is learning to make choices for
    yourself.Eg I might need extra money maybe I get
    a part time job. Or maybe I,ll concentrate on my
    school work
    I think saying every child should work at 14 or 16
    is an extreme position to take, more young people
    go to third level college now, so school work is more
    important now than in previous generations


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  • #241
    Mark Hamill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,783 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    beauf wrote: »
    Everyone else managed it.

    And then someone got more information and made a more informed argument.
    beauf wrote: »
    The thread had degenerated into personal attacks fro posters on both sides (if there are sides). I said it was unnecessary.

    ...if thats what you were referring to hard to know, with no context.

    I was mixing you up with sweetmaggie.
    I do agree that personal attacks are unnecessary. I don't believe looking at the OPs posting history was wrong (sweetmaggie's assertion).


  • #242
    Mark Hamill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,783 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I think the OP is long gone off this thread. I don't blame him. He got a lot of abuse :(

    Criticism =/= abuse.
    Criticism is exactly what the Op asked for.
    Abuse is something that offending posters would have been reported and moderated for. I don't remember posters getting carded or banned, do you?


  • #243
    Mark Hamill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,783 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    Homelander wrote: »
    Jesus, he's 14, not 4, and a few hours work is certainly no harm. He's not being asked to go coal-mining 40 hours a week, some people really need to get a grip.

    I'm in my 30's and almost all of my friends started working at 14/15. Most of us had to be "forced" but once we started earning our own money and understood what "working" was all about, you'd never go back.

    One or two would've even been 13/14, with parents who ran their own business.

    A lot of the posters criticising the OP aren't against the idea of the kid working (lockdown aside, 14 isn't that young for 2 days work). The issue is how the parent went about it (and the amount offered).
    Homelander wrote: »
    If you left it entirely up to the kid he'd probably be sitting at home in a dark room playing the Xbox until he was 20. The vast majority of kids need that first push and there is nothing whatsoever wrong with that.

    OP said that his son does well in school and is active in soccer and GAA. There is no evidence that this kid is unmotivated in general.
    Homelander wrote: »
    People arguing therapeutic approaches that "convince the teenager it was his idea" - eh, sorry, just no. How about "You're getting a job and that's that".

    Because heaven forbid we treat teenagers like adults and discuss things with them. Treat them like infants, that's the way to make them mature!


  • #244
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Mark Hamill wrote: »
    And then someone got more information and made a more informed argument....

    No one needs need information from years ago to answer the OP question.


  • #245
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Mark Hamill wrote: »
    ...Because heaven forbid we treat teenagers like adults and discuss things with them. Treat them like infants, that's the way to make them mature!

    You can't treat them like adults. Because they aren't adults. Which why they make stupid choices. Teenage brain isn't fully developed, which is why they often make poor risk decisions amongst other things. But you can't treat them like children either. Because they aren't children anymore.


  • #246
    Treppen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,621 ✭✭✭Treppen


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    I think the OP is long gone off this thread. I don't blame him. He got a lot of abuse :(

    Case in point, the post straight after yours

    Homelander wrote: »
    Jesus, he's 14, not 4, and a few hours work is certainly no harm. He's not being asked to go coal-mining 40 hours a week, some people really need to get a grip.

    I'm in my 30's and almost all of my friends started working at 14/15.... [Cut].


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  • #247
    Treppen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,621 ✭✭✭Treppen


    Mark Hamill wrote: »
    And then someone got more information and made a more informed argument.


    I was mixing you up with sweetmaggie.
    I do agree that personal attacks are unnecessary. I don't believe looking at the OPs posting history was wrong (sweetmaggie's assertion).

    When I used to be a mod it was generally considered a dick move, it creates bad feeling and generally scares off the op, not sure why it's allowed here.
    Also it doesn't really help the OP to start bringing in other personal stuff they never mentioned in their op.

    Then again it's not in their charter so I suppose there no rules broken.


  • #248
    Lefty Bicek
    Registered Users Posts: 1,625 ✭✭✭Lefty Bicek


    spurious wrote: »
    Because that was a tremendous success.

    Yet many of us love, respect, and cherish our parents decades on.

    We experienced it, and we can see the ways in which it has stood to us.

    Because we also see that we have better sense now than we had at fourteen. Something that not all of you can say for yourselves.


  • #249
    Mark Hamill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,783 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    beauf wrote: »
    No one needs need information from years ago to answer the OP question.

    The OP was pretty reticent with details at first, and it's a thread about a disagreement between the OP and his son, so looking at other posts to see if they give an idea of what type of person and parent he is is perfectly reasonable to me.
    beauf wrote: »
    You can't treat them like adults. Because they aren't adults. Which why they make stupid choices. Teenage brain isn't fully developed, which is why they often make poor risk decisions amongst other things. But you can't treat them like children either. Because they aren't children anymore.

    Yes, teenagers are poor at making decisions, which is why you need to teach them to become adults by allowing them to make (safe) adult choices.
    The OP wants his son to definitely get a job and doesn't want to go back on that, that's fine. But the OP could have discussed this with his son, informed him of his son's burgeoning responsibility to financially support himself (at least his leisure activities) and pointed out the benefit of having his own money. He could have given his son options on the nature of the job, which days worked, allowed his son to negotiate his wages etc.

    Not giving his son any choices in the matter and yet expecting him to develop into a mature adult capable of making mature adult choices would be like expecting his son pass his Junior Cert without attending classes or doing any study.


  • #250
    Mark Hamill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,783 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    Treppen wrote: »
    Case in point, the post straight after yours

    Am I missing something? What part of Homelander's post is abusive to anyone, leats of all the OP (who he is agreeing with).
    Treppen wrote: »
    When I used to be a mod it was generally considered a dick move, it creates bad feeling and generally scares off the op, not sure why it's allowed here.
    Also it doesn't really help the OP to start bringing in other personal stuff they never mentioned in their op.

    Then again it's not in their charter so I suppose there no rules broken.

    If expecting people to have honest and consistent positions across different threads scares off posters then maybe those posters shouldn't be here? This isn't Facebook, it's not supposed to be an echo chamber, it's a discussion forum and sometimes people disagree with posters and those posters should be mature enough to deal with the "bad feelings" they might get from being disagreed with.
    If something else an OP posted is relevant to what they are posting here, then reminding them will help if they are mature enough to accept they might be wrong.


  • #251
    Mark Hamill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,783 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    Lefty Bicek wrote: »
    Yet many of us love, respect, and cherish our parents decades on.

    We experienced it, and we can see the ways in which it has stood to us.

    Because we also see that we have better sense now than we had at fourteen.

    And some of us can admit that just because we survived something, survived it with some positive outcome even, that doesn't mean we can't do better for own kids.
    Lefty Bicek wrote: »
    Something that not all of you can say for yourselves.

    That is very constructive and not at all completely insulting or condescending :rolleyes:


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