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€300M Investment into Waterford City

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    #2972
    Dunmoreroader
    Registered Users Posts: 721 ✭✭✭Dunmoreroader


    curmudgeonly wrote: »
    Further Information sought.

    Go figure.

    That's par for the course, you couldn't apply for an extension to your kitchen without any council delaying with the old 'further information sought'. I would have been shocked if they didn't use that standard council planners breathing space ruse.


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    #2973
    jimbojazz
    Registered Users Posts: 827 ✭✭✭jimbojazz


    Another etenders SAQ up today for the bridges, road and train station, seems to be moving forward now


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    #2974
    shockwave
    Registered Users Posts: 1,770 ✭✭✭shockwave


    jimbojazz wrote: »
    Another etenders SAQ up today for the bridges, road and train station, seems to be moving forward now

    Link if anyones interested

    https://irl.eu-supply.com/ctm/Supplier/PublicPurchase/162910/0/0?returnUrl=&b=


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    #2975
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users Posts: 10,673 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    shockwave wrote: »
    Link if anyones interested

    https://irl.eu-supply.com/ctm/Supplier/PublicPurchase/162910/0/0?returnUrl=&b=

    Shame there is no Documents available.


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    #2976
    Harry Palmr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 40,061 ✭✭✭✭Harry Palmr


    Scheme includes 210 m long steel pedestrian bridge over river in SAC, train station including platforms, 2 road and 2 pedestrian bridges over railway, 800 m of realignment of existing dual carriageway and 250 m of new dual carriageway road; all in city center location to provide access to strategic development zone on the North Quays of Waterford City.

    Type of contract:
    Works

    Response deadline (Irish time):
    01/04/2020 16:00:00

    CPV codes:
    45000000-7 Construction work
    45213321-9 Railway station construction work
    45221111-3 Road bridge construction work
    45221113-7 Footbridge construction work
    45221115-1 Construction work for steel bridges
    45233121-3 Main road construction works
    45233125-1 Road junction construction work
    45233128-2 Roundabout construction work

    Presumably the 250 m of dual cabbageway is on Abbey road with a roundabout at the junction with the Ferrybank DC.


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    #2977
    azimuth17
    Registered Users Posts: 927 ✭✭✭azimuth17


    Must have been ready to go and simply waiting for funding allocation. How on earth did Fine Gael not have this ready if they (or Lord Ross?) was going to issue funding? Incredible political timing. Tender reply date 1st April 2020. Anyone know how the SAQ process affects actual tender? Does it intend to pre-qualify certain contractors?


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    #2978
    jimbojazz
    Registered Users Posts: 827 ✭✭✭jimbojazz


    azimuth17 wrote: »
    Must have been ready to go and simply waiting for funding allocation. How on earth did Fine Gael not have this ready if they (or Lord Ross?) was going to issue funding? Incredible political timing. Tender reply date 1st April 2020. Anyone know how the SAQ process affects actual tender? Does it intend to pre-qualify certain contractors?

    The SAQ is the suitability assessment questionnaire, it will set certain parameters based on turnover, previous experience of similar projects, previous experience for key personnel, financial status etc. to prequalify for the tender stage

    It will then assess the candidates and whittle it down to between 6-8 I’d imagine. These will then be the chosen tenderers

    I’d imagine between today and around another 4-5 months to get tenders back, all going well, and a contractor appointed


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    #2979
    Harry Palmr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 40,061 ✭✭✭✭Harry Palmr


    Michael Walsh on Deise Today between now and midday.


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    #2980
    Johnboy1951
    Registered Users Posts: 13,999 ✭✭✭✭Johnboy1951


    Harry Palmr wrote: »
    Michael Walsh on Deise Today between now and midday.

    He did not have a lot to say. Wait for new gov to be formed and settled in before he expects approval.

    Was interesting to hear Butler hang Brendan Kenneally out to dry in no uncertain terms.


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    #2981
    Harry Palmr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 40,061 ✭✭✭✭Harry Palmr


    Yep, it would have been better if he hadn't been on to be honest! I only want to hear the City manager when he has good news rather than no news.


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    #2982
    imacman
    Registered Users Posts: 690 ✭✭✭imacman


    Does anyone else this the north quays is a possible white elephant in the making.The retail aspect of the development is flawed to me , I dont think there is the demographics in the region to support that type of retail space.

    Look at the shopping centers that already exist ,the City Square did a major expansion and cant find a tenant , the shopping centers in Clonmel and Carlow are full of empty units along with the Market cross in Kilkenny. Also their is already an empty shopping centre in Ferrybank and isnt it part of this plan to build another four acre shopping centre Michael Street .It seems bonkers to me that their is going to be such a large investment in shopping units in the city when the high street chains are dying everywhere as online shopping takes over.

    Add to this the traffic issues that will arise and the distance across a foot bridge it is from the main part of the city I just dont think its a viable proposition.
    The problem is Waterford is so starved of investment that that the people and will jump at any development.


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    #2983
    Deiseen
    Registered Users Posts: 1,707 ✭✭✭Deiseen


    imacman wrote: »
    Does anyone else this the north quays is a possible white elephant in the making.The retail aspect of the development is flawed to me , I dont think there is the demographics in the region to support that type of retail space.

    Look at the shopping centers that already exist ,the City Square did a major expansion and cant find a tenant , the shopping centers in Clonmel and Carlow are full of empty units along with the Market cross in Kilkenny. Also their is already an empty shopping centre in Ferrybank and isnt it part of this plan to build another four acre shopping centre Michael Street .It seems bonkers to me that their is going to be such a large investment in shopping units in the city when the high street chains are dying everywhere as online shopping takes over.

    Add to this the traffic issues that will arise and the distance across a foot bridge it is from the main part of the city I just dont think its a viable proposition.
    The problem is Waterford is so starved of investment that that the people and will jump at any development.

    I do feel your concerns but developments in KK/Clonmel/Carlow cannot be compared as Waterford had a bigger population than all of these combined.

    Add in the fact that its not just retail, its housing, rail, leisure and a hotel and I feel it has the correct balance. Every report published on retail in Waterford says three things 1. That we don't have enough retail space 2. The space we do have is wrong and 3. The amount of money leaving the city/region is phenomenal.

    The Ferrybank shopping centre is all wrong and would be better served as offices. Would like to know reasons why city square is vacant but i can image the NQ has a lot to do with it. Why sign a multiple year lease and fit out a shop when the NQ is a few years away.


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    #2984
    Azatadine
    Registered Users Posts: 3,224 ✭✭✭Azatadine


    They need to do something with the Ferryvank centre. It's a fine building and surely to God there must be some use for it.


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    #2985
    imacman
    Registered Users Posts: 690 ✭✭✭imacman


    Deiseen wrote: »
    I do feel your concerns but developments in KK/Clonmel/Carlow cannot be compared as Waterford had a bigger population than all of these combined.

    Add in the fact that its not just retail, its housing, rail, leisure and a hotel and I feel it has the correct balance. Every report published on retail in Waterford says three things 1. That we don't have enough retail space 2. The space we do have is wrong and 3. The amount of money leaving the city/region is phenomenal.

    The Ferrybank shopping centre is all wrong and would be better served as offices. Would like to know reasons why city square is vacant but i can image the NQ has a lot to do with it. Why sign a multiple year lease and fit out a shop when the NQ is a few years away.
    I dont believe there is millions leaving the city /region for shopping in Dublin or Cork outside Christmas time , its being spent on amazon and generally online. Building massive shopping centers as a reaction to this isn't the answer and stinks of celtic tiger vanity builds to me.


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    #2986
    hardybuck
    Registered Users Posts: 5,162 ✭✭✭hardybuck


    imacman wrote: »
    Does anyone else this the north quays is a possible white elephant in the making.The retail aspect of the development is flawed to me , I dont think there is the demographics in the region to support that type of retail space.

    Look at the shopping centers that already exist ,the City Square did a major expansion and cant find a tenant , the shopping centers in Clonmel and Carlow are full of empty units along with the Market cross in Kilkenny. Also their is already an empty shopping centre in Ferrybank and isnt it part of this plan to build another four acre shopping centre Michael Street .It seems bonkers to me that their is going to be such a large investment in shopping units in the city when the high street chains are dying everywhere as online shopping takes over.

    Add to this the traffic issues that will arise and the distance across a foot bridge it is from the main part of the city I just dont think its a viable proposition.
    The problem is Waterford is so starved of investment that that the people and will jump at any development.

    I've articulated a view that the retail aspect needs to be carefully managed to ensure that the city centre isn't killed. Maybe the Michael's Street thing takes care of that - but I'm wary of too many shops going in over there and damaging the city centre.

    I would prefer to have retail and commercial that mainly serviced the offices and apartments - restaurants, barbers, dentists, creche etc.


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    #2987
    imacman
    Registered Users Posts: 690 ✭✭✭imacman


    hardybuck wrote: »
    I've articulated a view that the retail aspect needs to be carefully managed to ensure that the city centre isn't killed. Maybe the Michael's Street thing takes care of that - but I'm wary of too many shops going in over there and damaging the city centre.

    I would prefer to have retail and commercial that mainly serviced the offices and apartments - restaurants, barbers, dentists, creche etc.

    Actually thats a very fair point I didn't consider, if the northquays is a success it can only hurt the city centre. The developers arent going to give a hoot about the rest of the city and balanced development , they are only interested in making a profit and getting their investment back. Again another flaw of this development that hasn't really been mentioned


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    #2988
    Deiseen
    Registered Users Posts: 1,707 ✭✭✭Deiseen


    imacman wrote: »
    I dont believe there is millions leaving the city /region for shopping in Dublin or Cork outside Christmas time , its being spent on amazon and generally online. Building massive shopping centers as a reaction to this isn't the answer and stinks of celtic tiger vanity builds to me.

    Maybe men don't do it as much. But every woman I know in Waterford spends as much time in Cork, Kilkenny and Dublin shopping as they do Waterford.

    Not believing in this issue doesn't make it false.


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    #2989
    Deiseen
    Registered Users Posts: 1,707 ✭✭✭Deiseen


    imacman wrote: »
    Actually thats a very fair point I didn't consider, if the northquays is a success it can only hurt the city centre. The developers arent going to give a hoot about the rest of the city and balanced development , they are only interested in making a profit and getting their investment back. Again another flaw of this development that hasn't really been mentioned

    I'd argue that retail health in Waterford is in such poor health that this development will actually help it.


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    #2990
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,886 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    imacman wrote: »
    Actually thats a very fair point I didn't consider, if the northquays is a success it can only hurt the city centre. The developers arent going to give a hoot about the rest of the city and balanced development , they are only interested in making a profit and getting their investment back. Again another flaw of this development that hasn't really been mentioned

    err emm, ive been more or less talking about the negative elements of this project since it was announced, its well documented that large scale developments such as this are more wealth extractors than anything, but we dont like hearing this


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    #2991
    hardybuck
    Registered Users Posts: 5,162 ✭✭✭hardybuck


    Deiseen wrote: »
    I'd argue that retail health in Waterford is in such poor health that this development will actually help it.

    I think there's no doubt that a number of large retailers aren't in Waterford for a variety of reasons. One is probably a lack of suitable commercial property.

    Even Dublin city centre has found that certain international retailers haven't been able to source suitable developments with a large floor space - most of the older developments are too pokey and unsuitable.

    However, if you take a look at Dawson Street at the moment you'll see a gigantic site which is under construction, where a number of older developments are being cleared for consolidated new ones. Perhaps Waterford needs a bit more of that than building new facilities in Ferrybank.


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    #2992
    Harry Palmr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 40,061 ✭✭✭✭Harry Palmr


    Azatadine wrote: »
    They need to do something with the Ferryvank centre. It's a fine building and surely to God there must be some use for it.

    They? That would be a matter for Kilkenny Coco! They have no interest as far as I can see. If they did it wouldn't be 90% empty.

    The whole raison d'être of the North Quays is "destination shopping" that's why the train station is being moved to the new location. It's not intended as "local shopping for for local people", the Michael Street centre is really the development for that. As for City Square, it's a dogs dinner - just too small. It's a design for the 80s not the 2020s.


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    #2993
    hardybuck
    Registered Users Posts: 5,162 ✭✭✭hardybuck


    imacman wrote: »
    Actually thats a very fair point I didn't consider, if the northquays is a success it can only hurt the city centre. The developers arent going to give a hoot about the rest of the city and balanced development , they are only interested in making a profit and getting their investment back. Again another flaw of this development that hasn't really been mentioned

    I think more apartments and offices in the city centre are badly needed. The cleanup of the site is badly needed. It'd be amazing to have a hotel and conference facility over there.

    The North Quays, if managed properly, can definitely help to revitalise Waterford.


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    #2994
    Deiseen
    Registered Users Posts: 1,707 ✭✭✭Deiseen


    hardybuck wrote: »
    I think more apartments and offices in the city centre are badly needed. The cleanup of the site is badly needed. It'd be amazing to have a hotel and conference facility over there.

    The North Quays, if managed properly, can definitely help to revitalise Waterford.

    A few hundred extra people working in the city centre aswell as a few hundred extra people living there aswell cannot be understated.

    The bridge to Ferrybank unlocks the city centre to a population of 5000+ people.

    These 3 parts of the development alone are extremely significant.


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    #2995
    Johnboy1951
    Registered Users Posts: 13,999 ✭✭✭✭Johnboy1951


    yeah, people seem to forget that the bridge is a two-way 'street'.


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    #2996
    Max Powers
    Registered Users Posts: 3,510 ✭✭✭Max Powers


    Deiseen wrote: »
    Maybe men don't do it as much. But every woman I know in Waterford spends as much time in Cork, Kilkenny and Dublin shopping as they do Waterford.

    Not believing in this issue doesn't make it false.

    That is the impression I get too with all the women i know.Plus people I speak to around the SE, this would make Waterford more attractive for people in the SE to come to Waterford for shopping, so it's money leaving and money not coming as the largest urban area in the region. The NQ, with a couple new retail names would bring more in and stop the drain. I've heard people outside Waterford talk in glowing terms about JYSK, a few more of them could make a big difference.


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    #2997
    Harry Palmr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 40,061 ✭✭✭✭Harry Palmr


    Kildare Village is a massive draw, ask any housewife on the Dunmore road!


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    #2998
    hardybuck
    Registered Users Posts: 5,162 ✭✭✭hardybuck


    Harry Palmr wrote: »
    Kildare Village is a massive draw, ask any housewife on the Dunmore road!

    Kildare Village is a destination shopping experience that has specialist shops you wouldn't get elsewhere, and discounts you wouldn't get elsewhere. You might go there once a year - maybe some people go more regularly.

    They have a Le Creuset shop, a Nike outlet etc - some speciality brands you don't get in most places.

    However I know one leading Irish clothing brand that opened a pop up shop and closed it down afterwards as they were hurting clothing businesses that stocked their products in towns in the region.

    The other point to note is that Kildare Town is really run down. One of the bleakest towns you'll see - and Kildare is a wealthy county.


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    #2999
    JohnC.
    Registered Users Posts: 3,391 ✭✭✭JohnC.


    Isn't the Michael St. development connected to this now? Surely that gives them an incentive to care about the city centre. Plus it's a short hop across the river with a direct connection via a new bridge, not far away like what would normally be deemed an out-of-town development that sucks the life out of a centre.


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    #3000
    hardybuck
    Registered Users Posts: 5,162 ✭✭✭hardybuck


    JohnC. wrote: »
    Isn't the Michael St. development connected to this now? Surely that gives them an incentive to care about the city centre. Plus it's a short hop across the river with a direct connection via a new bridge, not far away like what would normally be deemed an out-of-town development that sucks the life out of a centre.

    Michael St could be delayed years or not happen at all if it came to it. At which point damage has been done.


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    #3001
    azimuth17
    Registered Users Posts: 927 ✭✭✭azimuth17


    If this development goes ahead, someone will have to put big money into it. Something around €300m is the figure. That being said, you would expect anyone spending that kind of money to have the retail picture locally, nationally and internationally at their finger tips and certainly to be more knowledgeable than any commentators on this thread. Internet spending is huge and growing. The North Quays is perfect for hotel, conference centre, office space, some apartments/housing and some retail. We have no reasonable size, high spec office space available at present in the city. Expect the retail element to be less dominant than originally proposed when the scheme gets off the ground with possible planning applications for variations. Building Michael Street makes some sort of sense to stabilize the existing city centre. Its also not huge and could swallow three or four national retailers. Also interesting that retail floor space in the city is said to be at an all time high when one considers the Harvey Normans, The Range, Home Store and More, JYSK of this world. Traditional city centre retailing is having difficulty everywhere. That will continue to be the case unless governments tax or have some other impact on internet retailing.


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