2700s return

IE 222 · 28-03-2018 8:32pm

goingnowhere wrote: »

Nenagh line needs 2 sets of 2800 to operate

Waterford needs either 2 sets of 2800 or 1 2800 and 1 ICR

So peak AM you are looking at being 4 2800 sets better off, so you get swap out the current 7 car ICR used at peak in Dublin for a proper commuter train and use those 7 cars somewhere elsewhere so

A train which is 3 car goes to 4 and one which is 4 can be moved to 6

Net result is 1000+ more capacity at peak hour

Neagh morning service splits. You would require 2 3car ICR then.

IE 222 · 28-03-2018 8:42pm

Ireland trains wrote: »

Irish rail leave a lot of time for the turnaround of their trains so I'd say they could squeeze in some more services by reducing the turnaround time or add in an extra service of the turnaround time is that big. Let's say for example Heuston to Portlaiose takes 1h 7 min so you need 3 trains but you would be able to turn the train around quickly at Portlaiose and when it gets back to Heuston you have about 40 min which in that time you could run a service to Hazelhatch and back.
Also irish rail have changed the 07:10 Newbridge to Grand canal dock to a 5 car ICR so does anyone know if some peak time service has been reduced to a 4 car ICR.

Portlaiose is used to swap trains in and out of service as well. Turn around times facilitate other operations such as cleaning, driver breaks, train rosters, splitting, passenger tranfers ect. You also need to allow paths for other services to run as well.

L1011 · 28-03-2018 11:13pm

If you start caning stock on tight turns it needs heavier and more frequent maintenance

dowlingm · 31-03-2018 1:54am

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

the R.E.M. project in Montreal proposes to remove the 25kV AC regional heavy rail service in favour of urban rail at... 1500V DC! So not a dead technology choice by any means. Chicago electric suburban rail is 1500V DC too (e.g. South Shore Line not the third rail urban lines)

Ireland trains · 06-08-2018 8:02pm

So how much icr's would the 2700 free up

kc56 · 06-08-2018 9:05pm

Ireland trains wrote: »

So how much icr's would the 2700 free up

If the 2700's take over, either directly or by cascading, the PPT services, that will release 4 ICR units which are a mix of 3 and 4 car sets.

Jamie2k9 · 06-08-2018 9:32pm

kc56 wrote: »

If the 2700's take over, either directly or by cascading, the PPT services, that will release 4 ICR units which are a mix of 3 and 4 car sets.

Can't see PPT changing from an ICR, if anythig prehaps 6/7 ICR ex Newbridge in future. M3 Parkway/Maynooth will likely be the lines to benefit.

IE 222 · 07-08-2018 12:22am

Can't see them going anywhere near Hueston services. I reckon they'll all go to M3 and make all Maynooth trains 8 car 2900s. Freed ICR's will go to Drogheada/Dundalk and maybe an extra PPT.

Has the PPT seen numbers fall on Portlaise- Hueston service or is it still busy. Is future demand on the Kildare commuter routes just for PPT or demand for more Hueston services grown as well.

man98 · 07-08-2018 12:39pm

IE 222 wrote: »

Can't see them going anywhere near Hueston services. I reckon they'll all go to M3 and make all Maynooth trains 8 car 2900s. Freed ICR's will go to Drogheada/Dundalk and maybe an extra PPT.

Has the PPT seen numbers fall on Portlaise- Hueston service or is it still busy. Is future demand on the Kildare commuter routes just for PPT or demand for more Hueston services grown as well.

Surely any spare ICRs will go towards making Rosslare/ Wexford - Dublin fully ICR? Or at least reducing it to one 29k per day?

Ireland trains · 07-08-2018 12:47pm

man98 wrote: »

IE 222 wrote: »

Surely any spare ICRs will go towards making Rosslare/ Wexford - Dublin fully ICR? Or at least reducing it to one 29k per day?

Yes that is the sensible thing to do as intercity train on intercity route and commuter train on commuter route.
They could do it tommorrow by just switching trains around

kc56 · 08-08-2018 5:25pm

IE 222 wrote: »

Can't see them going anywhere near Hueston services. I reckon they'll all go to M3 and make all Maynooth trains 8 car 2900s. Freed ICR's will go to Drogheada/Dundalk and maybe an extra PPT.

Has the PPT seen numbers fall on Portlaise- Hueston service or is it still busy. Is future demand on the Kildare commuter routes just for PPT or demand for more Hueston services grown as well.

According to the 2017 rail census, there was a small growth in Heuston commuter numbers probably due to the extension of the SHZ to Sallins/Naas. Overall growth was 57% when PPT was included.

L1011 · 16-10-2018 4:25pm

NTA are now telling public representatives making queries that this isn't happening due to cost and that Irish Rail are now looking for regaugable second hand units

devnull · 16-10-2018 4:32pm

I could see how second hand units might help the DART, as there are going to be plenty of EMUs becoming available in the UK over the next year or two, including:

- 100x 4 car class 321 units freed from Greater Anglia in the UK (many which are undergoing heavy refurbishment)
- 10x 4 car Siemens Desiro Class 350 from London Midland
- 21x 4 car Siemens Desiro Class 360 from Greater Anglia
- 05x 5 car Siemens Desiro Class 360 from Heathrow Connect
- 30x 4 car Bombardier Electrostar Class 379 from Stansted Express / West Anglia.

Then there is the 30x 5 car Class 707 Siemens Desiro City that are only about a year old that are shortly going to be replaced by newer trains which are cheaper to lease, but they're third rail.

However realistically Irish Rail need diesel units for commuter lines and converting a whole batch of units from EMU to Diesel is going to be costly and unproven. At the moment the project of converting the Class 319s to tri-mode class 769s is not going so well and the jury is very much still out on the D train project of converting ex underground cars to Diesel units.

You might have the odd class 153, 156, pacers or perhaps the class 180, but given the reliability of the Class 180 and the struggles that the operators with them are having, it wouldn't be a good purchase truth be told. I struggle to see where they are going to get good quality, diesel units, second hand.

I should imagine the class 170 and class 185 diesels will be snapped up fairly quickly when they go off lease in the UK, since modern diesel stock is very hard to come by and operators will lap them up.

L1011 · 16-10-2018 4:37pm

Re-equipping shoe contact or 25kv AC EMUs to 1500v DC wouldn't be cheap itself let alone regauging costs

Isambard · 16-10-2018 4:48pm

devnull wrote: »

I could see how second hand units might help the DART, as there are going to be plenty of EMUs becoming available in the UK over the next year or two, including:

- 100x 4 car class 321 units freed from Greater Anglia in the UK (many which are undergoing heavy refurbishment)
- 10x 4 car Siemens Desiro Class 350 from London Midland
- 21x 4 car Siemens Desiro Class 360 from Greater Anglia
- 05x 5 car Siemens Desiro Class 360 from Heathrow Connect
- 30x 4 car Bombardier Electrostar Class 379 from Stansted Express / West Anglia.

Then there is the 30x 5 car Class 707 Siemens Desiro City that are only about a year old that are shortly going to be replaced by newer trains which are cheaper to lease, but they're third rail.

However realistically Irish Rail need diesel units for commuter lines and converting a whole batch of units from EMU to Diesel is going to be costly and unproven. At the moment the project of converting the Class 319s to tri-mode class 769s is not going so well and the jury is very much still out on the D train project of converting ex underground cars to Diesel units.

You might have the odd class 153, 156, pacers or perhaps the class 180, but given the reliability of the Class 180 and the struggles that the operators with them are having, it wouldn't be a good purchase truth be told. I struggle to see where they are going to get good quality, diesel units, second hand.

I should imagine the class 170 and class 185 diesels will be snapped up fairly quickly when they go off lease in the UK, since modern diesel stock is very hard to come by and operators will lap them up.

secondhand units don't have to be from the UK.

end of the road · 16-10-2018 4:54pm

the 2700s must be in horific condition now, or very badly built, if a refurbishment of them isn't going ahead due to cost, so much so that IE have to look at second hand units which themselves may need some work to work on the network here?

Jamie2k9 · 16-10-2018 5:06pm

Not a hope of second hand units IMO, NTA trying to buy more time before making a decision on purchase of bi-mode trains.

L1011 · 16-10-2018 5:36pm

They could also look at loco hauled stock which is easier to re-bogie... Push pull 201s would be needed for that though and I don't think there's any spare or salvageable?

As goes the 2700s - try badly built *and* in awful condition.

GM228 · 16-10-2018 6:10pm

L1011 wrote: »

NTA are now telling public representatives making queries that this isn't happening due to cost and that Irish Rail are now looking for regaugable second hand units

This was raised at a recent board meeting, currently the project is stalled, but, not dead just yet despite whatever the NTA may have said.

Tenders were meant to have been issued before now and was all set to go until a few months ago, but, all the tenderers raised concerns about the cost of the project saying it could not be done for the estimated price.

IE require more money from the NTA before it can continue, IE and the NTA are indeed exploring the idea of second hand stock and have approached a number of companies in the UK looking at the 156s or 158s, but with no success I believe.

The reality is that once the NTA realise that second hand stock and re-gauging will also cost a significant price versus the relatively young age of the 2700s compared to second hand stock will most likely result in the 2700 project getting the green light once again.

GM228 · 16-10-2018 6:13pm

end of the road wrote: »

the 2700s must be in horific condition now, or very badly built, if a refurbishment of them isn't going ahead due to cost, so much so that IE have to look at second hand units which themselves may need some work to work on the network here?

They are in good condition structurally, some have also started up without problems in recent months, the problem is because they are so long out of service every single major component needs to be refurbished and other enhancements are required to bring them up to standards, the costs are more than the NTA are willing to sanction.

GM228 · 16-10-2018 6:14pm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Not a hope of second hand units IMO, NTA trying to buy more time before making a decision on purchase of bi-mode trains.

The decision to purchase bi-mode units has already been made a long time ago.

Jamie2k9 · 16-10-2018 6:27pm

GM228 wrote: »

The decision to purchase bi-mode units has already been made a long time ago.

Referring more to the process bringing it to tender etc Unrealistic to consider second hand trains because it will just just as much as the 2700s.

Cravens · 16-10-2018 7:13pm

Maybe a customer for the Class 230 DEMU?

devnull · 16-10-2018 7:44pm

Cravens wrote: »

Maybe a customer for the Class 230 DEMU?

Hopefully not.

L1011 · 16-10-2018 7:46pm

The NTA told the same public rep that they intend an RFI for bi-mode this calendar year (so within 10 weeks) and order in 2019.

I believe the rep is passing on the info given, but I don't believe the NTA are telling him the entire truth!

GM228 · 16-10-2018 10:27pm

https://www.kildarenow.com/news/irish-rail-trying-source-carriages-additional-fleet-capacity-maynooth-kildare-rail-lines/252966

tabbey · 17-10-2018 9:19pm

Isambard wrote: »

secondhand units don't have to be from the UK.

Anywhere else would have a larger loading gauge than Ireland & UK.

The only exceptions are probably narrow gauge stock.

The real scandal here is that the Mk II stock were prematurely scrapped and IR bought the 2700s & MkIV fleet. Both these were clearly unfit for purpose, Ir should have got their money back, or at least substantial compensation.

GM228 · 18-10-2018 2:35pm

https://twitter.com/lawlessj/status/1052865151857176577?s=19

Have a look at the letter from the NTA.

"the full reasons for the increased cost level are not known"

XPS_Zero · 18-10-2018 2:49pm

tabbey wrote: »

Anywhere else would have a larger loading gauge than Ireland & UK.

The only exceptions are probably narrow gauge stock.

The real scandal here is that the Mk II stock were prematurely scrapped and IR bought the 2700s & MkIV fleet. Both these were clearly unfit for purpose, Ir should have got their money back, or at least substantial compensation.

Why do you consider the MKIV fleet unfit for purpose?

XPS_Zero · 18-10-2018 2:51pm

GM228 wrote: »

https://twitter.com/lawlessj/status/1052865151857176577?s=19

Have a look at the letter from the NTA.

"the full reasons for the increased cost level are not known"

..and when canvassers knock on their door every one of those people will say "lower usc!" and "gimme a tax cut" and half will say "do something about dem scroungers on the dole" instead of "invest in public transport and public services in general!" and this will keep right on going.

end of the road · 18-10-2018 3:28pm

XPS_Zero wrote: »

Why do you consider the MKIV fleet unfit for purpose?

i think it's to do with the ride quality issues. mind you i didn't experience any on my 1 and only trip on them. all though i think the train didn't reach full speed for some reason or perhapse i didn't notice it if it did.
they are quite nice trains but could be better internally i think. nothing a good refurbishment wouldn't sort.

XPS_Zero · 18-10-2018 10:27pm

I've been on them. They could use an Enterprise style refurb

As to the 22k issue above, I was on a Cork train that was packed like that. A CORK TRAIN. A 3 hour trip.

They didn't turn on the reservation panels, so everyone was playing musical chairs, then loads ended up sitting on the floor as IE has no system connected together to prevent overbookings. THen there was the empty first class they could have used their discretion to fill with an upgrade fee option over the speaker, but never bothered.

end of the road · 18-10-2018 10:35pm

i've never done the enterprise. it's on the to do list before the de-deitrics retire.

L1011 · 18-10-2018 10:38pm

You probably have 15 years minimum then!

XPS_Zero · 19-10-2018 11:54am

end of the road wrote: »

i've never done the enterprise. it's on the to do list before the de-deitrics retire.

You're not a self respecting train geek until you've done the Enterprise.
Even take a trip to Newry, it's even better since the refurb.

Nicest train on the island, best staff, reservation panels that actually work, a train manager with a physical manifest if they don't..

tabbey · 19-10-2018 9:57pm

XPS_Zero wrote: »

Why do you consider the MKIV fleet unfit for purpose?

The ride was never right, even after being supposedly modified under warranty.

Apart from that, the seating is rather basic by mainline standards, you get what you pay for, I suppose.
Other rail operators (across the water) also fit inferior seats in their new trains, presumably to increase the seat capacity. This is a mistake, as the decades went by motorists have had improved seats, while rail passengers comfort has deteriorated.
Rail operators probably feel that people only use trains because they have to, not for their comfort.

Isambard · 20-10-2018 3:42pm

the Mk4 compare very badly with the mk3.

SeanW · 20-10-2018 9:04pm

man98 wrote: »

Surely any spare ICRs will go towards making Rosslare/ Wexford - Dublin fully ICR? Or at least reducing it to one 29k per day?

Are they still running 29000s Dublin-Rosslare? :eek: Seriously, WTF like?

end of the road · 20-10-2018 9:31pm

SeanW wrote: »

Are they still running 29000s Dublin-Rosslare? Seriously, WTF like?

unfortunately yes from time to time.

trellheim · 21-10-2018 8:22pm

so the 2700s are not coming back then ? What else is there in Inchicore that can seat passengers ?

end of the road · 21-10-2018 8:56pm

trellheim wrote: »

so the 2700s are not coming back then ? What else is there in Inchicore that can seat passengers ?

only the 8200s i think.
the 2700s will likely be brought back in the end i think. realistically them and new stock are the only options.

Drifter50 · 21-10-2018 9:01pm

Connolly to Sligo is a looooooonnngg way on a shake rattle and roll 2900 and the additional noise as well

end of the road · 21-10-2018 9:57pm

Drifter50 wrote: »

Connolly to Sligo is a looooooonnngg way on a shake rattle and roll 2900 and the additional noise as well

yup, for long distance they are horid junk. same with their cousins. brilliant at the suburban stuff though.

Drifter50 · 22-10-2018 7:53am

Why why why don`t IR use the 2900`s on the Hazelhatch / Phoenix Park tunnel route while the intercity routes to Sligo and Wexford get them and they are clearly unsuitable

end of the road · 22-10-2018 3:08pm

Drifter50 wrote: »

Why why why don`t IR use the 2900`s on the Hazelhatch / Phoenix Park tunnel route while the intercity routes to Sligo and Wexford get them and they are clearly unsuitable

there aren't enough 29s really and IE do not wish to run anything other then ICRS on the suburbans out of heuston. it all ultimately comes down to the decisian to site a depot at portlaoise, and to service most ICRS there. some are serviced at droghida as well.
another reason often given is supposed higher speeds out of heuston, which in my limited experience of both types of service out of there, really only apply to limited/non-stop services and not to stopping suburbans.

Jamie2k9 · 07-05-2019 4:54pm

IE made it official, 2700 no longer required? Anyone confirm?

goingnowhere · 07-05-2019 6:11pm

CME has no plans to put the 2700 back in service.

That said they have not been scrapped

end of the road · 07-05-2019 6:22pm

tbh if there are no plans to put them back in service then i can't see anything else happening but them being scrapped in the near future. i can't see what else can be done with them. the longer they sit out of service the more costly it will probably be to bring them back.

Jamie2k9 · 07-05-2019 6:29pm

goingnowhere wrote: »

CME has no plans to put the 2700 back in service.

That said they have not been scrapped

Im told staff (assuming drivers) have been instructed to remove some operational material about 2700 class from there books.

The_Wanderer · 08-05-2019 8:09pm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Im told staff (assuming drivers) have been instructed to remove some operational material about 2700 class from there books.

Instructions concerning the specific operation of 2700's have been removed from the General Appendix. Nothing to stop them being put back in at a future date if the need ever arose.

2700s return

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