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2700s return

1356

Comments

  • #102
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,756 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    tabbey wrote: »
    No.
    They are 33 years in service.

    Modern solidly built stock should last at least 40 years. Only vehicles problematical in some way, should be withdrawn early and many sound trains last much longer.

    Melbourne still has vehicles built as EMUs in 1956, which were converted in late 1980s to hauled coaches for outer suburban services.

    33 years now fair enough but I did say over the next 10 years and that would take them above 40. They will likely start leaving the fleet mid 2020's.


  • #103
    GM228
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,922 ✭✭✭GM228


    Jamie2k9 wrote: »
    33 years now fair enough but I did say over the next 10 years and that would take them above 40. They will likely start leaving the fleet mid 2020's.

    When the refurbished LHBs returned they were given 18 month conditional fit for service certificates to operate by the then RSC (one of the first roles the commission undertook). Following full acceptance (which involved structural and bogie lifespan predictions) the RSC issued a 40 year fit for service certificate - this was issued in 2008!


  • #104
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,756 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    GM228 wrote: »
    When the refurbished LHBs returned they were given 18 month conditional fit for service certificates to operate by the then RSC (one of the first roles the commission undertook). Following full acceptance (which involved structural and bogie lifespan predictions) the RSC issued a 40 year fit for service certificate - this was issued in 2008!

    Do you honestly believe they will be in service until 2048??


  • #105
    GM228
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,922 ✭✭✭GM228


    Jamie2k9 wrote: »
    Do you honestly believe they will be in service until 2048??

    Probably not, but I think they will be still here mid 2020s.


  • #106
    The_Wanderer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,055 ✭✭✭The_Wanderer


    Just to correct earlier postings.

    The tender is for 28 vehicles. i.e. it includes 2609 + 2716 (the hybrid set),

    Limerick is intended to be the main base, but I could foresee some sets being outbased in Cork to send the 2800's and some 2600's to Dublin Commuter work.


  • #107
    tabbey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,943 ✭✭✭tabbey


    GM228 wrote: »
    When the refurbished LHBs returned they were given 18 month conditional fit for service certificates to operate by the then RSC (one of the first roles the commission undertook). Following full acceptance (which involved structural and bogie lifespan predictions) the RSC issued a 40 year fit for service certificate - this was issued in 2008!

    Does this mean 40 years from 2008, or merely 40 years from originally entering service in 1984?


  • #108
    tabbey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,943 ✭✭✭tabbey


    Jamie2k9 wrote: »
    Do you honestly believe they will be in service until 2048??

    On the Berlin S-Bahn, some trains built in the 1930s survived in service into the 21st century, notably class ET 125. Some others built 1920s lasted until 1997.

    If it works well,why dump it?

    Unfortunately this country has more than it's share of people who know the price of everything and the value of nothing. This is why we have a lower standard of living than other Europeans, in spite of being nominally wealthier on paper.It is why so many Irish people are homeless and spending long periods on emergency trolleys.

    Only when we begin to value our assets, railway or any other, will we mature into a self-respecting and respected country.


  • #109
    GM228
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,922 ✭✭✭GM228


    tabbey wrote: »
    Does this mean 40 years from 2008, or merely 40 years from originally entering service in 1984?

    It is a 40 year cert commencing 2008 - so valid until 2048.


  • #110
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,686 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    In Hamburg:
    The DT3s are approaching 50 years old and new stock is being procured
    The DT4s are approx 30 years old with no plans to withdraw.
    The 472s will hit approx 44 years before being withdrawn

    These are the brothers and sisters of the 8100 class and as you can see they are having good and long lives and the DT4s have only just came out of a refurbishment in the last couple of years and they will get many more years out of them I suspect.

    I'm all for replacing life expired stock with stock that is modern, but at the end of the day the 8100 stock life to date without any serious problems and the fact that there are siblings of the units running around Germany with little problems suggests they're fine to go on a bit longer.

    The thing which will probably finish these units off won't likely be life expiry, it'll probably be an issue with getting the spare parts, that is what has saw off even older versions of it's siblings that are operating in Germany and beyond.

    What we should all be thankful for is that the contract for the refurbishment went to a company that did a damn fine job on them and didn't cut corners. Whatever about the refurbishment being late and Siemens doing more work than they needed to under the contract, best to have a delay and a well built product than an on-time job riddled with issues.

    (Alstom take note)


  • #111
    tabbey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,943 ✭✭✭tabbey


    GM228 wrote: »
    It is a 40 year cert commencing 2008 - so valid until 2048.

    Excellent.


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  • #112
    GM228
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,922 ✭✭✭GM228


    devnull wrote: »
    What we should all be thankful for is that the contract for the refurbishment went to a company that did a damn fine job on them and didn't cut corners. Whatever about the refurbishment being late and Siemens doing more work than they needed to under the contract, best to have a delay and a well built product than an on-time job riddled with issues.

    (Alstom take note)

    The one mistake Siemens made was to not evaluate the traction package requirement of the tender - a very costly mistake on their part.


  • #113
    GM228
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,922 ✭✭✭GM228


    And so it begins:-

    2715/2724 has been split in two with 2715 making it's way into the old carriage shops in Inchicore where it is currently being stripped down as part of a scoping exercise.

    Windows, seats, doors, floors and electrical components are currently in the process of being removed/examined on the unit probably to establish the finer details of the refurbishment plan.


  • #114
    The_Wanderer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,055 ✭✭✭The_Wanderer


    GM228 wrote: »
    And so it begins:-

    2715/2724 has been split in two with 2715 making it's way into the old carriage shops in Inchicore where it is currently being stripped down as part of a scoping exercise.

    Windows, seats, doors, floors and electrical components are currently in the process of being removed/examined on the unit probably to establish the finer details of the refurbishment plan.

    That happened several weeks ago and as far as I know the examination is complete. This was done before the tender was issued to assess the condition of one of the worst vehicles.


  • #115
    GM228
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,922 ✭✭✭GM228


    The_Wanderer wrote: »
    That happened several weeks ago and as far as I know the examination is complete. This was done before the tender was issued to assess the condition of one of the worst vehicles.

    Yes there was an initial exam late June/early July I, but a new/further scoping exercise has begun again on the unit I'm told to finalise a few things apparently - wiring, electrical items, under the floor and behind wall panels being the subject this time.

    Basically everything between the frames and internal fittings is being looked at again.


  • #116
    Cravens
    Registered Users Posts: 88 ✭✭Cravens


    Is there much progress behind the scenes to get the 2700's back into service?


  • #117
    Ireland trains
    Registered Users Posts: 399 ✭✭Ireland trains


    Are they going to be painted in the silver or green commuter livery


  • #118
    Shn99
    Registered Users Posts: 1,353 ✭✭✭Shn99


    Hopefully the green livery, would look nice


  • #119
    Rashers72
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,207 ✭✭✭Rashers72


    Cravens wrote: »
    Is there much progress behind the scenes to get the 2700's back into service?
    They are now mentioned every day on IE twitter as the solution to the extreme crush loads being experienced on the Maynooth, Drogheda and M3 Parkway services. Interestingly it is now also being mentioned as the solution for peak time overcrowding issues on the Heuston intercity services.
    IE twitter is advising customers these refurbished trains will be back in service next year. But despite being asked no indication has been given as to the number of 8 carriage trains that will actually be added. I have a feeling customers will ultimately be disappointed.


  • #120
    Shn99
    Registered Users Posts: 1,353 ✭✭✭Shn99


    Thought the 2700s were for Limerick?


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  • #121
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,144 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Shn99 wrote: »
    Thought the 2700s were for Limerick?

    i think that was more an assumption based on the fact that they were based out of there before being put into storage. nothing has been confirmed about where they will go from what i understand, all though that may have changed. i'd imagine the 2800s will stay in limerick given they are effectively an update of the 2600s and i think they inter-work with each other between services based out of cork and services based out of limerick. time will tell i guess.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • #122
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,756 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    Shn99 wrote: »
    Thought the 2700s were for Limerick?

    Wherever they are for, they will free 2800 stock for Dublin.


  • #123
    Ireland trains
    Registered Users Posts: 399 ✭✭Ireland trains


    But if they use the 2800 in dublin and 2700 In Limerick Limerick will get more trains as there is 10 2 car 2800 and 14 2 car 2700 (including the hybrid)


  • #124
    goingnowhere
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,206 ✭✭✭goingnowhere


    Limerick doesn't need its full fleet of 2800 units anyway as ICR's appear on the WRC, Shuttle and Waterford routes.

    The single car 2700's would be a god send to put an end to sending a 4 coach train to Nenagh each morning when a pair of single coaches would be more than sufficient...

    If you put the 2700 in Limerick and Ballina you could pull the ICR's off the WRC and Waterford line and send the 2800's to Dublin

    The 2700 was conceived as a regional DMU and is pretty good at that high seating capacity vs 2800, bike racks and fairly economical to run. The 2800 is much better suited to Dublin peak demand, guessing M3 parkway to release ICR's,
    two 6 car sets and split down to a two car off peak shuttle and Longford to replace the 1805 4 car 2900 with 6, thats the entire fleet gone

    Net result is not much, we need a big uplift in capacity the ICR centre coaches would be a big start but we need to get rid of the ICR's off suburban services as they are too slow and lack capacity or a major redesign to have a all stop and semi fast timetable on longer suburban routes which itself would be a nightmare to roster to have the right train in the right place


  • #125
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,144 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    goingnowhere wrote: »
    Limerick doesn't need its full fleet of 2800 units anyway as ICR's appear on the WRC, Shuttle and Waterford routes.

    The single car 2700's would be a god send to put an end to sending a 4 coach train to Nenagh each morning when a pair of single coaches would be more than sufficient...

    If you put the 2700 in Limerick and Ballina you could pull the ICR's off the WRC and Waterford line and send the 2800's to Dublin

    The 2700 was conceived as a regional DMU and is pretty good at that high seating capacity vs 2800, bike racks and fairly economical to run. The 2800 is much better suited to Dublin peak demand, guessing M3 parkway to release ICR's,
    two 6 car sets and split down to a two car off peak shuttle and Longford to replace the 1805 4 car 2900 with 6, thats the entire fleet gone

    Net result is not much, we need a big uplift in capacity the ICR centre coaches would be a big start but we need to get rid of the ICR's off suburban services as they are too slow and lack capacity or a major redesign to have a all stop and semi fast timetable on longer suburban routes which itself would be a nightmare to roster to have the right train in the right place


    tbh i would class the 2700 as a suburban DMU as well. the original idea for it may have been a regional one but it's definitely more suited to a suburban roll IMO, all though i never used them when they were on suburbans so i don't know how they handled the loads.
    i always thought there were 12 2800 sets? the 2800 class wikipedia article is claiming there are 10 trainsets which checks with your numbers but it's claiming 2 were scrapped which i never heard about?

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • #126
    pclive
    Registered Users Posts: 453 ✭✭pclive


    Will any new rolling stock be delivered in the near future?


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  • #127
    goingnowhere
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,206 ✭✭✭goingnowhere


    Back in 1996 the 2700 was to be the everything solution to handle all the branch lines (hence the single car sets), Limerick Junction shuttle, Ballina and so on.

    The interior is designed for maximum seating whereas the 2800 is really a DART interior with loads of standing space

    Demand in Dublin went crazy after the order was placed so they never got beyond Dublin until the 29000 arrived


  • #128
    L1011
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,555 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    pclive wrote: »
    Will any new rolling stock be delivered in the near future?
    No

    Even if a tender went out today it would be 2020 before stock arrives.


  • #129
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,756 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    It's been said only 10 2700 sets will return. There is probably around 6 which require use, possible 7 if you were to remove the ICR off one of the Limerick-Junction shuttle. The others will be spare and they often pop up in Cork over winter.

    The ICR on WRC is mostly a stock movement to place sets in Limerick while Waterford is between services so removing it makes no sense based on current schedules.


  • #130
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,144 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    it's a long shot i know but maybe as the refurbishment goes on they may decide to bring all sets back. unlikely but one can hope. we need as much stock in service as we can get.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • #131
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,756 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    end of the road wrote: »
    it's a long shot i know but maybe as the refurbishment goes on they may decide to bring all sets back. unlikely but one can hope. we need as much stock in service as we can get.

    Perhaps but one suspects they carried out an assessment of serviceable sets. From a cost prospective would of been cheaper to issue tenders for the full lot rather than separate ones unless they have a clause in place.


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  • #132
    Shn99
    Registered Users Posts: 1,353 ✭✭✭Shn99


    Has the refurbishment started yet?


  • #133
    Rashers72
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,207 ✭✭✭Rashers72


    Shn99 wrote: »
    Has the refurbishment started yet?
    I think it has yet to even go to tender so I am not convinced we will see them all in use in 2019. So if we have 10 sets = 20 carriages = 2.5 extra suburban trains for the entire country. Drop in the ocean of what's needed now.


  • #134
    GM228
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,922 ✭✭✭GM228


    Jamie2k9 wrote: »
    It's been said only 10 2700 sets will return.

    All are to return including the Hybrid set.


  • #135
    GM228
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,922 ✭✭✭GM228


    Rashers72 wrote: »
    I think it has yet to even go to tender so I am not convinced we will see them all in use in 2019. So if we have 10 sets = 20 carriages = 2.5 extra suburban trains for the entire country. Drop in the ocean of what's needed now.

    Went to tender last year, work due to start in Q2 2018 I believe, exploratory work has already been carried out on set 2715/2724 last year.


  • #136
    Rashers72
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,207 ✭✭✭Rashers72


    GM228 wrote: »
    Went to tender last year, work due to start in Q2 2018 I believe, exploratory work has already been carried out on set 2715/2724 last year.
    To be fair that comment came from the Indo so hardly a newsworthy source. Thanks for the correction.


  • #137
    dowlingm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,337 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    goingnowhere wrote: »
    The single car 2700's would be a god send to put an end to sending a 4 coach train to Nenagh each morning when a pair of single coaches would be more than sufficient...
    IE gave up on the single cars operating alone last time. Remember then they were spliced onto a 2-car set and repainted to 22000 scheme to make them look like an ICR set?


  • #138
    The_Wanderer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,055 ✭✭✭The_Wanderer


    dowlingm wrote: »
    IE gave up on the single cars operating alone last time. Remember then they were spliced onto a 2-car set and repainted to 22000 scheme to make them look like an ICR set?

    They weren't spliced. Operated as part of a multiple set with another 2 car set.


  • #139
    Fred Swanson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


  • #140
    goingnowhere
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,206 ✭✭✭goingnowhere


    The single cars are approved for use on their own network wide


  • #141
    Fred Swanson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


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  • #142
    Losty Dublin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,245 ✭✭✭✭Losty Dublin


    Fred Swanson wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    The main problem with them is that they were too small :)


  • #143
    The_Wanderer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,055 ✭✭✭The_Wanderer


    Fred Swanson wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    Yes they did operate on their own. But not permitted through Connolly as a single unit due to issues with being detected on the signalling system. That was the only restriction on their operation.

    DSCF0023-S.jpg

    More pictures of 2751 and 2753 operating on their own and in multi with other sets at https://thewandererphotos.smugmug.com/search/?q=2750&c=photos#i=0&s=recent


  • #144
    IE 222
    Registered Users Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭IE 222


    There was talk on possibly making the 2700s compatible with the 2900s, is there any update on that.

    Splitting two 2900 sets and adding two 2700s would make an extra 6 trains if they can be made compatible.


  • #145
    dowlingm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,337 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    Remember the time a train of 2x2700 sets split? Presumably that is all ancient history now.
    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=242926


  • #146
    goingnowhere
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,206 ✭✭✭goingnowhere


    IE 222 wrote: »
    There was talk on possibly making the 2700s compatible with the 2900s, is there any update on that.

    Splitting two 2900 sets and adding two 2700s would make an extra 6 trains if they can be made compatible.

    Multiple working compatibility is the aim so you can run 27+29 consists but its considered optional

    In theory 26+27+28 works already and 27+29 should work from a safety point of view, but the PIS and Passcom PA might not work

    29 is spec'ed for 10 coach consist 29+something else


  • #147
    IE 222
    Registered Users Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭IE 222


    Can platforms cater a 10 car train


  • #148
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,144 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    IE 222 wrote: »
    Can platforms cater a 10 car train

    i think a couple of platforms can. not sure which ones though.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • #149
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,756 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    Not many, just Heuston/Connolly and main stations between Newbridge/Cork could handle a 10 car set, it would be over 200m long. Typical size on network is 170-175 which is just bigger than a 8 car 2900.


  • #150
    dowlingm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,337 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    Off topic but spent the afternoon at a park beside Toronto Union Station eastern approaches, where every 10 minutes or so a GO Transit loco+12 bilevels would roll past - 310m just for the coaches! Because all the trains have selective door opening, they often have "only the rear six coach doors will open at X station" or similar if works are being done or a station hasn't had its platform lengthened yet.

    By contrast the VIA Rail trains headed for Montreal and Ottawa were almost all smaller than a Mark 4 set and many of them would have probably been grand with a 4 car 22K - and faster too.


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  • #151
    GM228
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,922 ✭✭✭GM228


    goingnowhere wrote: »
    Multiple working compatibility is the aim so you can run 27+29 consists but its considered optional

    In theory 26+27+28 works already and 27+29 should work from a safety point of view, but the PIS and Passcom PA might not work

    29 is spec'ed for 10 coach consist 29+something else

    2600/2700/2800 multiple working already works and was about to be rubber stamped for normal operation when the decision was taken to withdraw the 2700s.

    2700 and 29000 does not work in multiple, this was due to a relay in the 29000s which was not compatible with the other stock and locked out the sets, a mod is either required on the 29000s to make them compatible with all other stock or on the 2700s to make them compatible with 29000s (but no longer with 2600 and 2800).

    There was talk of the 2700s being made compatible with the 29000s, but I don't think it will happen.


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