Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

Dog Botherer · 21-10-2020 3:05pm

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Bizarre choice, you'd swear he's the only backrower we have who can jump.

but he is our only back row who can only jump. what could go wrong?

sydthebeat · 21-10-2020 3:15pm

Dog Botherer wrote: »

i assume O’Mahony is there to give the hookers an easy target at the front of the lineout if it’s all going ****eways. which, given our line outs lately, fair enough.

still wouldn’t have picked him mind.

every single one of our back 5 are jumping options.....

if we cant secure our own ball from that then there will serious questions asked of Easterby.

I think against italy we could have looked at a more offence minded "finisher" type from the bench, as points difference could become a factor.... but hey.

Against France however, maybe POM as an 'in the trenches' would be more applicable option.

arsebiscuits1 · 21-10-2020 3:17pm

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Bizarre choice, you'd swear he's the only backrower we have who can jump.

It's well established that POM is one of the best lineout operators of Irelands backrow choices.

Doris is a capable option. Normally used at 2 for Leinster.

CJ and Connors I don't think have 5 lineout takes between them this season. VDF or Conan are rarely deployed as jumpers either

POM offers a genuine threat of a steal and is consistently able to beat the opposition into the air.

I'm not calling for him to be involved. But I don't think his aerial ability can be disputed

AbusesToilets · 21-10-2020 3:39pm

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

It's well established that POM is one of the best lineout operators of Irelands backrow choices.

Doris is a capable option. Normally used at 2 for Leinster.

CJ and Connors I don't think have 5 lineout takes between them this season. VDF or Conan are rarely deployed as jumpers either

POM offers a genuine threat of a steal and is consistently able to beat the opposition into the air.

I'm not calling for him to be involved. But I don't think his aerial ability can be disputed

He's good for maybe one steal a game. Out of how many lineouts a per game? That usually comes with 0-5 tackles, no carries, maybe a steal on the deck if he's having one of his "good " games.

arsebiscuits1 · 21-10-2020 3:47pm

AbusesToilets wrote: »

He's good for maybe one steal a game. Out of how many lineouts a per game? That usually comes with 0-5 tackles, no carries, maybe a steal on the deck if he's having one of his "good " games.

I'm not discussing other aspects of his game. Nor do I think he should be involved.

But with regards to lineouts I do think he's a better alternative to the likes of VDF, or Conan and is the only reason I can see him being involved.

If I'm analysing the most effective way to create scoring opportunities in the 6 nations, line outs are a massive source of them. So there is logic to getting someone who can secure a potentially problematic lineout. And someone who can disrupt an opposition lineout

AbusesToilets · 21-10-2020 3:58pm

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

I'm not discussing other aspects of his game. Nor do I think he should be involved.

But with regards to lineouts I do think he's a better alternative to the likes of VDF, or Conan and is the only reason I can see him being involved.

If I'm analysing the most effective way to create scoring opportunities in the 6 nations, line outs are a massive source of them. So there is logic to getting someone who can secure a potentially problematic lineout. And someone who can disrupt an opposition lineout

I don't dismiss his abilities in the lineout, he's certainly the best in the country as a defensive jumper, but on our own jump I don't think he's so much better for that to be considered a factor.

aloooof · 21-10-2020 4:02pm

4 debutantes in the 23, and others like Doris and Heffernan who are still pretty new to the international fold, and we're still discussing POM...

sydthebeat · 21-10-2020 4:06pm

aloooof wrote: »

4 debutantes in the 23, and others like Doris and Heffernan who are still pretty new to the international fold, and we're still discussing POM...

you must have missed the posts that have been praising the selection of young players and debutants

but obviously until we see how they perform in green theres gonna be very little discussion other than being glad to see them there.

POM however, well we know at this stage what he brings to the party.

As a bench option i just think its a bit strange unless we're trying to hang on for a win when he comes on.

If his lineout ability on both attack and defense was such a potent weapon to pressure both sides of the ball... he should be starting.

molloyjh · 21-10-2020 4:27pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

you must have missed the posts that have been praising the selection of young players and debutants

but obviously until we see how they perform in green theres gonna be very little discussion other than being glad to see them there.

POM however, well we know at this stage what he brings to the party.

As a bench option i just think its a bit strange unless we're trying to hang on for a win when he comes on.

If his lineout ability on both attack and defense was such a potent weapon to pressure both sides of the ball... he should be starting.

I think keeping guys the right kind of focused and in the right head space of we are chasing a couple of scores makes sense too. We dont want to get too loose. And with all the inexperience on the bench (plus the lack of experience together too) that could well happen. We've often seen when sides make a lot of changes with inexperienced options on the bench they lose a bit of cohesion.

wittycynic · 21-10-2020 4:36pm

Happy and all as I am to see prospects handed a cap, is it really a good idea to start Keenan on the wing, a guy who has just one try to his name at provincial level (scored back in 2018) in a game where we need to rack up a massive score to have even the remotest chance of remaining in the hunt for the championship?

aloooof · 21-10-2020 4:42pm

wittycynic wrote: »

Happy and all as I am to see prospects handed a cap, is it really a good idea to start Keenan on the wing, a guy who has just one try to his name at provincial level (scored back in 2018) in a game where we need to rack up a massive score to have even the remotest chance of remaining in the hunt for the championship?

Who would you suggest in his place?

wittycynic · 21-10-2020 4:51pm

aloooof wrote: »

Who would you suggest in his place?

Keenan doesn't show any indication of being a try scorer, so wing is an odd place to put him.

In my opinion he either starts at fullback or he doesn't start.

And even then I'd have Daly, and maybe even Henshaw, ahead of him at full back for this game, both of whom offer more of a scoring threat.

UAEguy2020 · 21-10-2020 5:12pm

wittycynic wrote: »

Happy and all as I am to see prospects handed a cap, is it really a good idea to start Keenan on the wing, a guy who has just one try to his name at provincial level (scored back in 2018) in a game where we need to rack up a massive score to have even the remotest chance of remaining in the hunt for the championship?

Milner Skudder only had 4 tries in SR before playing for ABs and then scored 3 tries in his first 2 test matches

Obviously a big player to compare but some players take to test rugby and some don’t.

AbusesToilets · 21-10-2020 5:13pm

wittycynic wrote: »

Keenan doesn't show any indication of being a try scorer, so wing is an odd place to put him.

In my opinion he either starts at fullback or he doesn't start.

And even then I'd have Daly, and maybe even Henshaw, ahead of him at full back for this game, both of whom offer more of a scoring threat.

Luke Fitz was one of the best wingers we've ever had, didn't score many tries. I'd still start him every time

UAEguy2020 · 21-10-2020 5:14pm

Malakai Some Revolution wrote: »

Think the team is fine. I don't really think our tight 5 is great but he's probably picked the best available, we just don't have the personnel there with the injuries, Healy getting on etc. Didn't expect Connors to start at all and Keenan has had some rise. I think Aki is the right call, he's been really good this season. Dunno what POM has to do to get dropped but apparently less than doing nothing in game bar getting sent off, and hopefully JGP gets some meaningful gametime.

The tight 5 is picked to do what Farrell wants it to do, to bring energy around the park. We aren’t best designed to bludgeon teams so it’s better to try beat teams in other ways.

OneLungDavy · 21-10-2020 5:22pm

wittycynic wrote: »

Keenan doesn't show any indication of being a try scorer, so wing is an odd place to put him.

In my opinion he either starts at fullback or he doesn't start.

And even then I'd have Daly, and maybe even Henshaw, ahead of him at full back for this game, both of whom offer more of a scoring threat.

Why are people pushing for Henshaw at FB again?

sydthebeat · 21-10-2020 5:24pm

wittycynic wrote: »

Keenan doesn't show any indication of being a try scorer, so wing is an odd place to put him.

In my opinion he either starts at fullback or he doesn't start.

And even then I'd have Daly, and maybe even Henshaw, ahead of him at full back for this game, both of whom offer more of a scoring threat.

On your behalf I'm throwing a tenner on Keenan to score a try on Saturday....

sydthebeat · 21-10-2020 5:45pm

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

The tight 5 is picked to do what Farrell wants it to do, to bring energy around the park. We aren’t best designed to bludgeon teams so it’s better to try beat teams in other ways.

With the new jackler interpretations the days of holding possession to bludgeon teams are over..... Even tiny wingers and scrum halves are now a jackle threat.

Teams need to be able to play away from contact now to disjoint a defensive line. Offloading out of the tackle and quick hands before contact for continuity is the name of the game, and Ireland have a long way to catch up.

Burkie1203 · 21-10-2020 6:24pm

Dog Botherer wrote: »

but he is our only back row who can only jump. what could go wrong?

Ask RG Snyman

rayd3 · 21-10-2020 7:04pm

Isn’t this what ye have the Leinster thread for? Whinging about O’Mahony.

UAEguy2020 · 21-10-2020 7:05pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

With the new jackler interpretations the days of holding possession to bludgeon teams are over..... Even tiny wingers and scrum halves are now a jackle threat.

Teams need to be able to play away from contact now to disjoint a defensive line. Offloading out of the tackle and quick hands before contact for continuity is the name of the game, and Ireland have a long way to catch up.

Thats exactly it. Ireland definetly have forwards that can offload, Ryan,Beirne,Doris,Connors. Herring,Stander im not so sure, Ryan not so much and Healy is abit up in the air in that regard. The issue has been Schmidt basically bringing in an offload ban similar to how Jones brought in a kicking ban for the Japanese early on in his tenure.

The ban appears to have been lifted under Farrell and it does appear bringing in players who are good around the park was just as important as players who specialise in their position, might take awhile for it to become natural to the players though.

molloyjh · 21-10-2020 7:09pm

rayd3 wrote: »

Isn’t this what ye have the Leinster thread for? Whinging about O’Mahony.

POMs form has been poor. Its a valid conversation, whether you like it or not. Theres no need to bring provincial BS into this. If you have any valid points to raise then go for it. Otherwise all you're doing is whinging about whinging. What's the point in that?

molloyjh · 21-10-2020 7:10pm

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

Thats exactly it. Ireland definetly have forwards that can offload, Ryan,Beirne,Doris,Connors. Herring,Stander im not so sure, Ryan not so much and Healy is abit up in the air in that regard. The issue has been Schmidt basically bringing in an offload ban similar to how Jones brought in a kicking ban for the Japanese early on in his tenure.

The ban appears to have been lifted under Farrell and it does appear bringing in players who are good around the park was just as important as players who specialise in their position, might take awhile for it to become natural to the players though.

What ban? There was never a ban on offloads. Where do people get this rubbish.

21-10-2020 7:20pm

molloyjh wrote: »

POMs form has been poor. Its a valid conversation, whether you like it or not. Theres no need to bring provincial BS into this. If you have any valid points to raise then go for it. Otherwise all you're doing is whinging about whinging. What's the point in that?

It's a bunch of people arguing against nobody to be fair not much point in the pom echo chamber again most people agree

rayd3 · 21-10-2020 7:33pm

molloyjh wrote: »

POMs form has been poor. Its a valid conversation, whether you like it or not. Theres no need to bring provincial BS into this. If you have any valid points to raise then go for it. Otherwise all you're doing is whinging about whinging. What's the point in that?

Ah, the Valid Points police. Good to hear from you

It’s not provincial BS, it’s a valid point, whether you like it or not.

21-10-2020 8:04pm

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

The tight 5 is picked to do what Farrell wants it to do, to bring energy around the park. We aren’t best designed to bludgeon teams so it’s better to try beat teams in other ways.

It can bring all the energy it wants it still isn't very good.

21-10-2020 8:19pm

rayd3 wrote: »

Ah, the Valid Points police. Good to hear from you

It’s not provincial BS, it’s a valid point, whether you like it or not.

Not sure you know what "provincial BS" means

sydthebeat · 21-10-2020 8:29pm

rayd3 wrote: »

Ah, the Valid Points police. Good to hear from you

It’s not provincial BS, it’s a valid point, whether you like it or not.

Slags 'valid point' post by claiming 'valid point'

The ironing is strong with this one

Richie_Rich89 · 21-10-2020 8:35pm

Healy needs a big couple of weeks after the scrum débâcle in the Saracens match. Are his legs gone? I suppose we'll find out against France.

UAEguy2020 · 21-10-2020 9:39pm

Malakai Some Revolution wrote: »

It can bring all the energy it wants it still isn't very good.

Herring is meh but the rest of the tight 5 is pretty strong.

jacothelad · 21-10-2020 9:54pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

Slags 'valid point' post by claiming 'valid point'

The ironing is strong with this one

Well it'll get the wrinkles out....

TomsOnTheRoof · 21-10-2020 9:59pm

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Luke Fitz was one of the best wingers we've ever had, didn't score many tries. I'd still start him every time

I'm sorry but Fitzgerald was not one of our best ever wingers. Even discounting the likes of Geoghegan you still have Horgan, Bowe and Earls. There's also an argument to be made for having Zebo, Stockdale and Conway ahead of him. He was a good player and an excellent school's player but the idea that he was a once in a generation talent is wide of the mark.

On the selected squad: It's about as good as we could hope for given the injuries. Delighted for Dillane, really hope he can kick on and get back into the fold. As mentioned elsewhere the front five (especially the front row) looks a bit underpowered. Backrow looks good and there's plenty of firepower outside Sexton. Bench is a small bit underwhelming. On form POM doesn't deserve to be there. However he has plenty of credit in the bank and he's being given the opportunity to show whether he still has anything to offer. That's fair enough. Anyway, here's to a good game and us putting up a cricket score.

rayd3 · 21-10-2020 10:05pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

Slags 'valid point' post by claiming 'valid point'

The ironing is strong with this one

Does the steamer on your iron go whoosh?

swiwi_ · 21-10-2020 10:16pm

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

Just had a thought.

The anthems are gonna be weird this weekend.

Presumably they wont have Michael D there.

One of the few positives of Covid. Nothing against Michael D but the presidents meet and greet is tiresome.

21-10-2020 10:20pm

swiwi_ wrote: »

One of the few positives of Covid. Nothing against Michael D but the presidents meet and greet is tiresome.

Always cracked a smile when Michael D and Toner shook hands.

I've no issue with it, feel it adds to the gravitas and intensity of international standard sport.

Richie_Rich89 · 21-10-2020 10:21pm

What Fitzgerald had was an ability to step up and turn in world class performances at the highest level when the chips were down. That's a rare and valuable quality in a player. I thought it was very noticeable in the home loss to the All Blacks in 2008 that Fitzgerald and David Wallace were several levels above all the other Irish players. And then there was the game-breaking performance in the Argentina qf in 2015. He wasn't without his flaws obviously - poor under the high ball at 15 against France in 2011 and didn't score many tries as a winger - but his ability to step up when it mattered set him apart. He probably wasn't used enough at 12 during his career.

AbusesToilets · 21-10-2020 10:51pm

TomsOnTheRoof wrote: »

I'm sorry but Fitzgerald was not one of our best ever wingers. Even discounting the likes of Geoghegan you still have Horgan, Bowe and Earls. There's also an argument to be made for having Zebo, Stockdale and Conway ahead of him. He was a good player and an excellent school's player but the idea that he was a once in a generation talent is wide of the mark.

On the selected squad: It's about as good as we could hope for given the injuries. Delighted for Dillane, really hope he can kick on and get back into the fold. As mentioned elsewhere the front five (especially the front row) looks a bit underpowered. Backrow looks good and there's plenty of firepower outside Sexton. Bench is a small bit underwhelming. On form POM doesn't deserve to be there. However he has plenty of credit in the bank and he's being given the opportunity to show whether he still has anything to offer. That's fair enough. Anyway, here's to a good game and us putting up a cricket score.

Respectfully disagree about Fitz. For me, I think he was the most talented back I've seen outside of BOD, perhaps more so in certain areas. The fact his career was so injury interrupted is one of the tragedies of Irish Rugby.

POM must go to the same financiers as Trump, not sure how else he'd get credit.

awec · 21-10-2020 11:13pm

Luke Fitzgerald was a winger who scored 4 tries in 34 matches for Ireland. It's an abysmal record, I'm not sure I buy the argument that he's among the greats.

21-10-2020 11:17pm

awec wrote: »

Luke Fitzgerald was a winger who scored 4 tries in 34 matches for Ireland. It's an abysmal record, I'm not sure I buy the argument that he's among the greats.

Lions starter at 21 says it all for me

molloyjh · 21-10-2020 11:37pm

Luke Fitz never really delivered on his potential. In many ways through injury as much as his own failings. When he was good he was absolutely electric, but can't really be considered one of the greats.

wittycynic · 22-10-2020 12:36am

sydthebeat wrote: »

On your behalf I'm throwing a tenner on Keenan to score a try on Saturday....

Don't doubt his ability, the lad is very good. Hell, he might even score. But is he the best option in a game where we need massive points; the one who is most likely to get over the line? As I said, I'd have Stockdale on the wing (it's mad to take our most prolific available winger and stick him at fullback in this game), and have Daly or Henshaw at FB. That seems far more likely to generate a high score.

Hope I'm wrong and Keenan runs over three or four.

Hands Like Flippers · 22-10-2020 1:02am

errlloyd wrote: »

With respect, that is unfortunately not how this works.

This is a contagious virus, there is no personal responsibility. The consequences of actions are felt on a population level, not a personal one.

I would respectfully suggest that argument cuts the other way as well. If someone is in a vulnerable group then they should shield rather than expect all of society to shut down for them. I know lots of vunerable people who take this view.

swiwi_ · 22-10-2020 5:21am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Always cracked a smile when Michael D and Toner shook hands.

I've no issue with it, feel it adds to the gravitas and intensity of international standard sport.

But it delays the start of the match!

lawrencesummers · 22-10-2020 6:01am

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Luke Fitz was one of the best whingers we've ever had, didn't score many tries. I'd still start him every time

I corrected that slight, but very relevant error you made in your post.

Burkie1203 · 22-10-2020 8:26am

I see Ruaidhri O' Connor is now Simon Zebos agent

AdamD · 22-10-2020 9:56am

Burkie1203 wrote: »

I see Ruaidhri O' Connor is now Simon Zebos agent

Hes either a complete idiot or deliberately oblivious to the reasons why Ireland don't pick players playing outside of the provinces.

OldRio · 22-10-2020 10:06am

swiwi_ wrote: »

But it delays the start of the match!

This has to be a set up.

arsebiscuits1 · 22-10-2020 10:08am

Burkie1203 wrote: »

I see Ruaidhri O' Connor is now Simon Zebos agent

I stopped reading ROC a while back and then the Indo had the audacity to think his articles were premium content and I haven't read anything penned by him in months and my life is better for it.

molloyjh · 22-10-2020 10:13am

Burkie1203 wrote: »

I see Ruaidhri O' Connor is now Simon Zebos agent

Hes always been a fan boy. Interesting stat. In the HEC final, 45 players took the field. Only 1 didn't make or attempt any tackles. Guess who that was.

Zebo can be sensational at times, but a complete non-entity others. A lot of people watching rugby see the big moments. The line breaks, tries, big hits etc. If a player puts in a couple of those then they've been excellent. The problem is that those are moments in 80 minute games. Theres a lot of rugby played before and after those too.

Zebo seems to have found a club that suits him. Allows him to enjoy the parts of the game he wants without putting too much pressure on him to deliver on the bits he doesn't. And they pay him well for it. More power to him, I bet we all wish we could find a number like that one. But thats not what we need in Ireland camp. Its certainly not what I'd be happy with in there.

yerrahbah · 22-10-2020 10:18am

Burkie1203 wrote: »

I see Ruaidhri O' Connor is now Simon Zebos agent

Zebo gets the clicks

Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

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