Lead ban

Mississippi. · 17-11-2019 8:30pm

I see the Christmas stamp books are out now with the free stamp offer.
20 letters for the price of 19.

Grizzly 45 · 17-11-2019 9:30pm

Wonder does An Post do bulk mail rates,or mailing campaigns?

dto001 · 18-11-2019 12:02pm

If its any help

https://www.pc2paper.co.uk/

:D

berettaman · 20-11-2019 11:43am

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/contact-us/

See link to all TD's and Senators email addresses..may be handy.;)

dto001 · 20-11-2019 1:06pm

Got the expected reply from the greens (you have to contact them all):

I would firstly like to thank you for reaching out to me on this very important issue.

I am surprised by your mail, as the umbrella organisation of hunters, the Federation of Associations for Hunting and Conservation of the EU (FACE), formally agreed already in 2004 with Birdlife “to ask for the phasing out of the use of lead shot for hunting in wetlands throughout the EU as soon as possible, and in any case by the year 2009”.

Indeed such a European-wide ban of lead in gunshot is long overdue to implement the legally binding Action Plan of the Agreement on the Conservation of African-Eurasian Migratory Waterbirds, according to which all Parties shall endeavour to phase out the use of lead shot for hunting in wetlands by 2000. The European Union is a Contracting Party to that Agreement.

Unfortunately, the ban of lead in gunshot for hunting in wetlands has still not been adopted by the European Commission, but we hope that this will be the case very soon.

Moreover, the problem of lead in gunshot is not limited to wetlands. As such, we welcome that the Commission has asked the European Chemical Agency (ECHA) on 16 July 2019 to prepare a restriction proposal on the placing of the market and use of lead in ammunition (gunshot and bullets) and of lead in fishing tackle conforming to the requirements of Annex XV to REACH (the EU chemicals legislation).

You can rest assured that this does not circumvent the European Parliament. It follows the regular procedures of REACH, adopted jointly by Council and the European Parliament in 2006.

According to ECHA, alternatives to lead gunshot cartridges exist, and are technically and economically feasible. Therefore, a ban of lead in shot will not affect hunting or shooting sports. According to ECHA, the incremental cost to an EU wetland hunter (including costs for necessary testing, technical adaptations to shotguns, premature replacement of shotguns and the incremental cost of more expensive alternative ammunition) is in the order of €50 per year. The corresponding annual benefits of the restriction were found to be substantially larger.

A public consultation is currently ongoing until 16 December 2019 with regard to the latest request by the European Commission. We invite you to participate in that consultation.

Given the availability of alternatives to lead in shot, and the commitment of the hunters from 2004 for a phase-out of lead in shot in wetlands, I hope that you will reconsider your position and support this important measure to protect the environment.

Again, thank you for getting in touch with me on this issue and I hope that this clarifies my position on the matter.

Warmest regards,

Ciarán

Ciarán CUFFE
MEP for Dublin
Green Party Comhaontas Glas

oldgit1897 · 20-11-2019 9:13pm

dto001 wrote: »

Got the expected reply from the greens (you have to contact them all):

I would firstly like to thank you for reaching out to me on this very important issue.

I am surprised by your mail, as the umbrella organisation of hunters, the Federation of Associations for Hunting and Conservation of the EU (FACE), formally agreed already in 2004 with Birdlife “to ask for the phasing out of the use of lead shot for hunting in wetlands throughout the EU as soon as possible, and in any case by the year 2009”.

Indeed such a European-wide ban of lead in gunshot is long overdue to implement the legally binding Action Plan of the Agreement on the Conservation of African-Eurasian Migratory Waterbirds, according to which all Parties shall endeavour to phase out the use of lead shot for hunting in wetlands by 2000. The European Union is a Contracting Party to that Agreement.

Unfortunately, the ban of lead in gunshot for hunting in wetlands has still not been adopted by the European Commission, but we hope that this will be the case very soon.

Moreover, the problem of lead in gunshot is not limited to wetlands. As such, we welcome that the Commission has asked the European Chemical Agency (ECHA) on 16 July 2019 to prepare a restriction proposal on the placing of the market and use of lead in ammunition (gunshot and bullets) and of lead in fishing tackle conforming to the requirements of Annex XV to REACH (the EU chemicals legislation).

You can rest assured that this does not circumvent the European Parliament. It follows the regular procedures of REACH, adopted jointly by Council and the European Parliament in 2006.

According to ECHA, alternatives to lead gunshot cartridges exist, and are technically and economically feasible. Therefore, a ban of lead in shot will not affect hunting or shooting sports. According to ECHA, the incremental cost to an EU wetland hunter (including costs for necessary testing, technical adaptations to shotguns, premature replacement of shotguns and the incremental cost of more expensive alternative ammunition) is in the order of €50 per year. The corresponding annual benefits of the restriction were found to be substantially larger.

A public consultation is currently ongoing until 16 December 2019 with regard to the latest request by the European Commission. We invite you to participate in that consultation.

Given the availability of alternatives to lead in shot, and the commitment of the hunters from 2004 for a phase-out of lead in shot in wetlands, I hope that you will reconsider your position and support this important measure to protect the environment.

Again, thank you for getting in touch with me on this issue and I hope that this clarifies my position on the matter.

Warmest regards,

Ciarán

Ciarán CUFFE
MEP for Dublin
Green Party Comhaontas Glas

Load of old crap, but i expect nothing less from that band of wally's.

Grizzly 45 · 20-11-2019 9:59pm

"You can rest assured that this does not circumvent the European Parliament. It follows the regular procedures of REACH, adopted jointly by Council and the European Parliament in 2006."

Blatant LIE! The Eu comission is circumventing the parliment by ONLY using the ECHA report for this further aim.

According to ECHA, alternatives to lead gunshot cartridges exist, and are technically and economically feasible. Therefore, a ban of lead in shot will not affect hunting or shooting sports. According to ECHA, the incremental cost to an EU wetland hunter (including costs for necessary testing, technical adaptations to shotguns, premature replacement of shotguns and the incremental cost of more expensive alternative ammunition) is in the order of €50 per yea

HORSE SHT!!!Any of the alternatives are either inefficent or too costly,or have not been enviromentally tested to see what their adverse enviromental effect actually is.Where does this Water melon get off by say technical adjustments to shotguns willcost about 50 euros per hunter?It will cost Mr Cuffe a whole lot more to send an Irish gun to Birmingham,or the EU to get it re proofed to stel shot,if at all possible.
Feckin Green Watermelons..No clue on anything as usual.

oldgit1897 · 20-11-2019 10:07pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYZVLrrKxrQ

oldgit1897 · 20-11-2019 10:31pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

"You can rest assured that this does not circumvent the European Parliament. It follows the regular procedures of REACH, adopted jointly by Council and the European Parliament in 2006."

Blatant LIE! The Eu comission is circumventing the parliment by ONLY using the ECHA report for this further aim.

According to ECHA, alternatives to lead gunshot cartridges exist, and are technically and economically feasible. Therefore, a ban of lead in shot will not affect hunting or shooting sports. According to ECHA, the incremental cost to an EU wetland hunter (including costs for necessary testing, technical adaptations to shotguns, premature replacement of shotguns and the incremental cost of more expensive alternative ammunition) is in the order of €50 per yea

HORSE SHT!!!Any of the alternatives are either inefficent or too costly,or have not been enviromentally tested to see what their adverse enviromental effect actually is.Where does this Water melon get off by say technical adjustments to shotguns willcost about 50 euros per hunter?It will cost Mr Cuffe a whole lot more to send an Irish gun to Birmingham,or the EU to get it re proofed to stel shot,if at all possible.
Feckin Green Watermelons..No clue on anything as usual.

My side by sides are both 100 + years old, one with damascus barrels. Like fukc will i be shooting steel through either of them. I'll stockpile lead and tip on regardless if this tripe comes in. I'll adopt the French attitude, do what i like.

The melons ? Bunch of communist school teachers looking to second job in the dail, voted for by brainwashed kids.

Eddie B · 20-11-2019 10:42pm

oldgit1897 wrote: »

My side by sides are both 100 + years old, one with damascus barrels. Like fukc will i be shooting steel through either of them. I'll stockpile lead and tip on regardless if this tripe comes in. I'll adopt the French attitude, do what i like.

The melons ? Bunch of communist school teachers looking to second job in the dail, voted for by brainwashed kids.

Yes me too. My old side by side was passed down to me by my father. Must be over 50 years old. I won't be shooting steel through it either, or retiring it for a newer fancier model. It not only has sentimental value to me, but I love the feel of it, and it's a good killing gun.

oldgit1897 · 20-11-2019 11:14pm

If you lookat that video i posted a bit earlier, they say at 46.30 that there might be a derogation for older firearms, if is the case, will that be passed on to the Irish, or will our lot just blanket ban lead full stop ?

dto001 · 21-11-2019 12:46am

From what I understand lead will just no be produced anymore so you will not be able to get lead cartridges anymore. and that gets them out of compensating people as well.
What also needs to happen is reloading has to be brought in to allow people with older guns to get ammo that suit their guns. (only as a back up plan)

Grizzly 45 · 21-11-2019 12:49pm

Not the hardest to make lead shot either
Thats why they want to ban it in the 4 phases,like reloading,because ...reasons.
Got some news about the directive. .And its relatively good news
To be continued. ...

TeaBagMania · 21-11-2019 2:24pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Not the hardest to make lead shot either

exactly what i was thinking, and easy enough to open a cartridge poor out the steel and refill with lead

Grizzly 45 · 21-11-2019 4:26pm

Directive updates
It seems our East bloc friendsin Poland ,Hungary and points East have rejected this lead ban proposal outright,and it looks like it will drag on awhile longer
More to follow once confirmed.

oldgit1897 · 21-11-2019 5:55pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Not the hardest to make lead shot either
Thats why they want to ban it in the 4 phases,like reloading,because ...reasons.
Got some news about the directive. .And its relatively good news
To be continued. ...

We'll see how it goes, if badly, i'll invest.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Lead-Shot-Maker-1-Dripper-set/274089327631?hash=item3fd0ff3c0f:g:DqUAAOSwUWldaps-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmUur4ESZKw

oldgit1897 · 21-11-2019 5:56pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Directive updates
It seems our East bloc friendsin Poland ,Hungary and points East have rejected this lead ban proposal outright,and it looks like it will drag on awhile longer
More to follow once confirmed.

Fair play to them for fighting their own corner. I know Victor Orban is a thorn in the eu's/merkels flesh.

dto001 · 22-11-2019 12:05am

Maybe its time we should have an oul' march on the dail the elections are looming in the next few months so they might actually stand up and take heed!!

I'm not seeing much from the NARGC or Countryside alliance on this or are they tirelessly working behind the scenes? Surely they should be more vocal instead of just sending a questionnaire to the parties? Maybe if we were vocal we would actually be taken seriously for once. Just take a page out of the Europeans book.

oldgit1897 · 22-11-2019 12:30am

dto001 wrote: »

Maybe its time we should have an oul' march on the dail the elections are looming in the next few months so they might actually stand up and take heed!!

I'm not seeing much from the NARGC or Countryside alliance on this or are they tirelessly working behind the scenes? Surely they should be more vocal instead of just sending a questionnaire to the parties? Maybe if we were vocal we would actually be taken seriously for once. Just take a page out of the Europeans book.

There is posters up around my way already, no one i would vote for though. I would really hope the nargc would be getting stuck into this nonsense and fighting against it.

How many do you think we could muster to a march ? Not many i would think.

dto001 · 22-11-2019 6:46am

oldgit1897 wrote: »

There is posters up around my way already, no one i would vote for though. I would really hope the nargc would be getting stuck into this nonsense and fighting against it.

How many do you think we could muster to a march ? Not many i would think.

You'd be surprised look how many turned out for the Rise march when ever that was. If the NARGC and Countryside alliance got on to all their affiliated clubs and asked for a few members from each I'm sure you could get a good crowd even a couple of hundred would do

Half-cocked · 22-11-2019 10:48am

dto001 wrote: »

You'd be surprised look how many turned out for the Rise march when ever that was.

Slightly off topic, but is RISE still active? Have they done anything about their name being nicked?

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/paul-murphy-sets-up-new-political-group-called-rise-1.4035062

Grizzly 45 · 22-11-2019 6:06pm

Half-cocked wrote: »

Slightly off topic, but is RISE still active? Have they done anything about their name being nicked?

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/paul-murphy-sets-up-new-political-group-called-rise-1.4035062

Socialist Greens....No thanks.

oldgit1897 · 22-11-2019 6:27pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Socialist Greens

Be afraid, be very afraid :eek:

dto001 · 25-11-2019 10:24pm

Another reply which sounds a bit more promising:

Thank you for contacting me on this issue.

I have been working with the National Association of Regional Game Councils (NARGC) on this sensitive issue.

On Tuesday 10th September, I arranged a meeting between representatives of the NARGC and the European Commission in Brussels. Following on from that meeting, I have facilitated further communication between the NARGC and the Commission via email.

In July I met with the European Commissioner responsible, Elżbieta Bieńkowska and raised the NARGC's concerns over the proposal to ban lead shots in wetlands.

The European Chemicals Agency (ECHA) carried out a study into lead used in ammunition. The European Commission requested the study due to concerns about the health risks to hunters and their families who eat game, bird mortality and environmental pollution.

The Commission proposal to ban lead on gun shot will be voted on in the REACH Committee and a qualified majority is required for it to pass. This committee is composed of Member State national representatives.

The European Parliament and the Council of Ministers can object within two months, on procedural grounds when the proposal is adopted by the REACH committee.

24 member states already have restrictions in place and the current proposal is seen as a means to harmonise.

I trust this information is of use to you.

Yours sincerely,

Mairead McGuinness

ZiabR · 26-11-2019 10:15am

Some good videos that I watched last night. I am a believer that we need to move away from plastic wads and towards Fibre and Di-solvable plastics. Not 100% sold on Steel shot, it may well be ok up to 30 yards (shotgun) but I cant see steel ever being acceptable for Rifle shooting. I don't think any of us can afford to turn a blind eye to any aspect of our sport anymore and we need to move towards greener solutions for the good of the sport.

Grab a coffee and take a look at these videos.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=karcwlvZXZ8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8PpyNfbNIw

Eddie B · 26-11-2019 11:09am

ZiabR wrote: »

Some good videos that I watched last night. I am a believer that we need to move away from plastic wads and towards Fibre and Di-solvable plastics. Not 100% sold on Steel shot, it may well be ok up to 30 yards (shotgun) but I cant see steel ever being acceptable for Rifle shooting. I don't think any of us can afford to turn a blind eye to any aspect of our sport anymore and we need to move towards greener solutions for the good of the sport.

Grab a coffee and take a look at these videos.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=karcwlvZXZ8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8PpyNfbNIw

Not trying to be dismissive or anything, but I honestly have no interest in watching those video's. My gun won't take steel shot, so I'm sort of left in limbo with the whole fiasco. What's more, fair enough, in a way steel shot is greener, but the known fact that steel results in more wounded birds, (especially waterfowl), it aint as green as they advertise it to be. They are the two main issues, and they can't seem to come up with a real alternative that would entice change.

ZiabR · 26-11-2019 11:15am

Eddie B wrote: »

Not trying to be dismissive or anything, but I honestly have no interest in watching those video's. My gun won't take steel shot, so I'm sort of left in limbo with the whole fiasco. What's more, fair enough, in a way steel shot is greener, but the known fact that steel results in more wounded birds, (especially waterfowl), it aint as green as they advertise it to be. They are the two main issues, and they can't seem to come up with a real alternative that would entice change.

I completely see your point of view. I was in the same position until last week when I traded my O/U in against a new O/U that is steel-shot proofed. That being said, the lads in TGS for the most part DONT like steel, but they understand that we all just cant bury our heads in the sand. The UK are fighting against the ban aswell. I dont like steel either, but i shoot sporting clay and trap only so for me the move to steel will likely be ok as I am killing clays 15-40 yards max in a controlled environment.

The videos are not just about steel-shot but more about a greener cartridge as a whole. The more efforts the industry makes to show that it is trying to change the less chance we have of being attacked. We all win in that instance.

Can I ask what kind of gun you shoot? What is the BAR pressure printed on the barrels? For example some guns have 1370Bar which is capable of shooting steel.

Eddie B · 26-11-2019 11:32am

ZiabR wrote: »

I completely see your point of view. I was in the same position until last week when I traded my O/U in against a new O/U that is steel-shot proofed. That being said, the lads in TGS for the most part DONT like steel, but they understand that we all just cant bury our heads in the sand. The UK are fighting against the ban aswell. I dont like steel either, but i shoot sporting clay and trap only so for me the move to steel will likely be ok as I am killing clays 15-40 yards max in a controlled environment.

The videos are not just about steel-shot but more about a greener cartridge as a whole. The more efforts the industry makes to show that it is trying to change the less chance we have of being attacked. We all win in that instance.

Can I ask what kind of gun you shoot? What is the BAR pressure printed on the barrels? For example some guns have 1370Bar which is capable of shooting steel.

Very valid points there, and I agree most if what you've said. Without taking the gun out of the safe, I am pretty sure it can't take steel. Its a Monte Carlo side by side, and is over fifty years old lol. The gun was passed down to me by my father, so for me, it's more than just an old gun. A lot of fond memories lay within its history. Yes I could hang it on the wall and buy a fancy new gun, but i think when that day comes, I'd have to really consider if I want to start again, or to hang up the old boots.

ZiabR · 26-11-2019 11:42am

Eddie B wrote: »

Very valid points there, and I agree most if what you've said. Without taking the gun out of the safe, I am pretty sure it can't take steel. Its a Monte Carlo side by side, and is over fifty years old lol. The gun was passed down to me by my father, so for me, it's more than just an old gun. A lot of fond memories lay within its history. Yes I could hang it on the wall and buy a fancy new gun, but i think when that day comes, I'd have to really consider if I want to start again, or to hang up the old boots.

All fair points. Don't blame you for wanting to keep it. Lets see where the Lead ban goes, by the sounds of it, we may well be years away from it.

oldgit1897 · 26-11-2019 5:25pm

ZiabR wrote: »

I completely see your point of view. I was in the same position until last week when I traded my O/U in against a new O/U that is steel-shot proofed. That being said, the lads in TGS for the most part DONT like steel, but they understand that we all just cant bury our heads in the sand. The UK are fighting against the ban aswell. I dont like steel either, but i shoot sporting clay and trap only so for me the move to steel will likely be ok as I am killing clays 15-40 yards max in a controlled environment.

The videos are not just about steel-shot but more about a greener cartridge as a whole. The more efforts the industry makes to show that it is trying to change the less chance we have of being attacked. We all win in that instance.

Can I ask what kind of gun you shoot? What is the BAR pressure printed on the barrels? For example some guns have 1370Bar which is capable of shooting steel.

Change for what purpose ? It strikes me change is the new religion, change for changes sake. What is the issue with lead shot ? There maybe an issue on actual real wetland, not land marked on a map as wetland, with waterfowl picking up lead. But i doubt there are people dropping down dead because there is lead on clay grounds. Its lead, not uranium dioxide U-235.

It seems to be the modern way, fixing a non-existant problem for appearances, and the "LOOK AT ME I'M GREEN, GREENER THAN THOU" sh1te

JohnFitz2332 · 27-11-2019 12:05am

oldgit1897 wrote: »

Change for what purpose ? It strikes me change is the new religion, change for changes sake. What is the issue with lead shot ? There maybe an issue on actual real wetland, not land marked on a map as wetland, with waterfowl picking up lead. But i doubt there are people dropping down dead because there is lead on clay grounds. Its lead, not uranium dioxide U-235.

It seems to be the modern way, fixing a non-existant problem for appearances, and the "LOOK AT ME I'M GREEN, GREENER THAN THOU" sh1te

Plastic non-biodegradable wads are an issue, however, and we all need to make an effort to move towards more environmentally friendly alternatives where possible.

oldgit1897 · 27-11-2019 1:55am

JohnFitz2332 wrote: »

Plastic non-biodegradable wads are an issue, however, and we all need to make an effort to move towards more environmentally friendly alternatives where possible.

The usual wads for about a hundred years were fibre and cork wads, fully biodegradable and harmless. The makers are fannying around with plastic that rots, when all they have to do is go back to what was used for so long.

ZiabR · 27-11-2019 9:14am

oldgit1897 wrote: »

The usual wads for about a hundred years were fibre and cork wads, fully biodegradable and harmless. The makers are fannying around with plastic that rots, when all they have to do is go back to what was used for so long.

I think that there are concerns about performance. The older Cork/Fibre wads may not give a good patterns etc. But you are right. Nothing wrong with Fibre wads today. It is just very difficult to enforce their use.

JohnFitz2332 · 27-11-2019 9:24am

oldgit1897 wrote: »

The usual wads for about a hundred years were fibre and cork wads, fully biodegradable and harmless. The makers are fannying around with plastic that rots, when all they have to do is go back to what was used for so long.

I actually never knew that

BryanL · 27-11-2019 11:33am

EU looking to be seen to reduce lead, without actually having a positive effect.

This all started from the comission saying we want to ban lead shot and bullets, give us a reason to do it.

The pigeon man · 27-11-2019 1:10pm

There's just such hypocrisy in this lead shot ban. I currently fire lead cartridges with a fibre wad. They leave no trace.

And they want us to use something like steel. So lead is bad but I'll just litter the countryside in plastic wads? Most steel shot cartridges come in plastic wad. Two plastic wads weigh the same as a plastic bag.

Seems to be a step backwards for me.

ZiabR · 27-11-2019 3:20pm

Very valid points there to be honest. You are right about steel cartridges mostly having plastic wads. You can get them in Fibre but the cartridges are much more expensive.

oldgit1897 · 27-11-2019 5:44pm

The steel cartridges have to have a plastic cup wad to try to stop the shot scoring the barrels. You are driving steel against steel. Also you can not shoot steel through chokes tighter than 1/2, so i am told, as the shot will not deform like lead does, and you can get bulges or splitting of the barrel.

stnls%20bulge-2.JPG

Eddie B · 27-11-2019 10:59pm

According to Fieldsports Britain, the lead ban is a done deal. Only 64 out of over 400 MEP's have voted for a debate, so it goes straight to the European commission for a ruling.

ZiabR · 28-11-2019 9:18am

Eddie B wrote: »

According to Fieldsports Britain, the lead ban is a done deal. Only 64 out of over 400 MEP's have voted for a debate, so it goes straight to the European commission for a ruling.

Which is why I posted the above videos etc. We all know that the lead ban is bulls*it and completely avoiding the scientific facts, but it looks like we are being shoe horned into a corner. The sport dies if it doesn't adapt hence companies starting to pour money into R&R for greener cartridges.

If I am honest, I do see the ban coming in, but I cannot see the ban coming for at least another 5-10 years.

Hope I am wrong and that sense prevails, but that never seems to happen.

Grizzly 45 · 28-11-2019 11:13pm

Apparently the ammo companies are speaking up now,and one of their problems is this with the military of the EU being exempted. As no ammo company in the EU survives wholly from Govt contracts.It wont be worth their while re tooling to alternatives to lead to supply the civillian market.And if lead is banned from sale in the EU.They will be forced to purchase it for military contracts from Russia or China!!!
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dto001 · 28-11-2019 11:52pm

Money usually talks so maybe this will be the end of it!!!!!

oldgit1897 · 29-11-2019 12:52am

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Apparently the ammo companies are speaking up now,and one of their problems is this with the military of the EU being exempted. As no ammo company in the EU survives wholly from Govt contracts.It wont be worth their while re tooling to alternatives to lead to supply the civillian market.And if lead is banned from sale in the EU.They will be forced to purchase it for military contracts from Russia or China!!!
��

That Von Der Laden twit had the German army running around with brush handles painted black with the soldiers shouting "BANG" when they fired a shot, in one of the biggest and most advanced arms producing countries in the world. The same as Captain Mainwaring did back in 1939.

So she would probably support the lead ban and then wonder why the european militaries cannot defend their countries. :rolleyes:

ZiabR · 29-11-2019 9:20am

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Apparently the ammo companies are speaking up now,and one of their problems is this with the military of the EU being exempted. As no ammo company in the EU survives wholly from Govt contracts.It wont be worth their while re tooling to alternatives to lead to supply the civillian market.And if lead is banned from sale in the EU.They will be forced to purchase it for military contracts from Russia or China!!!
��

Interesting, and I imagine that the Military use huge amounts of ammunition training etc on a yearly basis. Am I right in saying that some testing was done on some of the military firing ranges and the lead "poisoning" was negligible/barely traceable, given the shear quantity of ammunition being fired in the one area?

Grizzly 45 · 29-11-2019 11:10am

oldgit1897 wrote: »

That Von Der Laden twit had the German army running around with brush handles painted black with the soldiers shouting "BANG" when they fired a shot, in one of the biggest and most advanced arms producing countries in the world. The same as Captain Mainwaring did back in 1939.

So she would probably support the lead ban and then wonder why the european militaries cannot defend their countries. :rolleyes:

"Flinten Ushi!"(shotgun Ursala)as the Bundeswehr calls her.Has moved on to bigger and better things in Brussels A walking disaster as German defence minister that one.Its said that the German army was in better fighting condition in April 1945,than in 2019.

oldgit1897 · 29-11-2019 3:37pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

"Flinten Ushi!"(shotgun Ursala)as the Bundeswehr calls her.Has moved on to bigger and better things in Brussels A walking disaster as German defence minister that one.Its said that the German army was in better fighting condition in April 1945,than in 2019.

The French are not happy with her already as she is surrounding herself in Brussels with German cronies.

tudderone · 10-12-2019 8:21pm

Reading online, that Waitrose and other supermarkets in the UK are banning the sale of game bird that were shot with lead. They are phasing out the sales inthe next two years. As shoots rely partially on the sales of shot birds for their income, they would have to insist that shooters use non-toxic shot, another nail in the lead shot coffin.

marlin vs · 11-12-2019 9:12am

Link. https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/jul/29/experts-call-for-ban-on-lead-shot-as-waitrose-overhauls-sale-of-game

ZiabR · 11-12-2019 10:17am

That is another nail in the coffin alright. Has anyone here used Steel shot in any great amount for game? I have been reading and watching videos about it in the UK as they are ahead of where we are. It does seem that steel shot is fine, with little to no difference (up to a certain range). Where the question marks start to come in is on high birds, after a certain range the velocity does drop off significantly faster with the steel shot.

The general consensus is that greener cartridges (bio degradable wads etc) and steel loads are perfectly viable for 85% of birds, but confidence is lost on high birds and birds beyond a certain range.

That being said, I cannot see how steel shot can be used for rifles. A solid load would pass straight through an animal meaning far more wounded targets. Lead is a much more humane load.

There are so many grey areas around the lead shot ban, perhaps it will settle on some kind of middle ground, if it settles at all.

tudderone · 11-12-2019 2:42pm

marlin vs wrote: »

Link. https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/jul/29/experts-call-for-ban-on-lead-shot-as-waitrose-overhauls-sale-of-game

"Research shows 70% of wildfowl were shot with lead in the uk".

Shooting Forum - Firearms licencing information

Lead ban

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