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Lead ban

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,822 ✭✭✭ Eddie B
    Registered User


    If that goes ahead, I may hang up me boots for good


  • Registered Users Posts: 764 ✭✭✭ hedzball
    Registered User


    " with farmers accounting for over half of guns users in Ireland"


    Where do they get such shiote...


    'Hdz


  • Registered Users Posts: 18 ✭✭✭ I right I
    Registered User


    "EU and Irish civil Servants are currently looking at restricting the use of lead in shooting and fishing, a move that could see over 100,000 guns in Ireland become obselete."

    How does the firearm become obsolete?

    Shotguns will still fire steel shot.

    I've seen custom copper and brass solids as bullets. Would be more expensive than the regular bullets, but obsolete?

    Looks like the kid that wrote the article figured out how to catch web traffic with a title.

    Check facts? Why? When you can't even check your own spelling.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,772 ✭✭✭ meathstevie
    Registered User


    I right I wrote: »
    "EU and Irish civil Servants are currently looking at restricting the use of lead in shooting and fishing, a move that could see over 100,000 guns in Ireland become obselete."

    How does the firearm become obsolete?

    Shotguns will still fire steel shot.

    I've seen custom copper and brass solids as bullets. Would be more expensive than the regular bullets, but obsolete?

    Looks like the kid that wrote the article figured out how to catch web traffic with a title.

    Check facts? Why? When you can't even check your own spelling.

    From my own experience, steel shot is not near as effective as lead when it comes to reliably getting clean kills.

    Older shotguns that are not suited to operating at the higher pressures more modern steel proofed ones do will become obsolete in this scenario unless you want to depart with a hand and half your face.

    As for harder and lighter metal solid bullets for hunting purposes I don't know. I reckon they might ricochet easier and not expand and dump energy as well as lead equivalents.

    It's all well and good in a controlled target shooting environment but I don't fancy the idea of a lighter and harder easier deflected bullet in a hunting environment.


  • Registered Users Posts: 107 ✭✭ JohnFitz2332
    Registered User


    I have a Bettinsoli shotgun. Just called them and they said I'm f***ed if my shotgun's serial number is before 200000 (which it is) because it can't be re-proofed. God damn EU.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 58 ✭✭✭ rugerfanatic


    What about rifles eg 22lr?


  • Registered Users Posts: 441 ✭✭ richiedel123
    Registered User


    What about rifles eg 22lr?

    As far as I know there is no replacement for lead so 22 and 17 will be as good as gone unless somebody comes up with some replacement.


  • Registered Users Posts: 441 ✭✭ richiedel123
    Registered User


    I right I wrote: »
    "EU and Irish civil Servants are currently looking at restricting the use of lead in shooting and fishing, a move that could see over 100,000 guns in Ireland become obselete."

    How does the firearm become obsolete?

    Shotguns will still fire steel shot.

    I've seen custom copper and brass solids as bullets. Would be more expensive than the regular bullets, but obsolete?

    Looks like the kid that wrote the article figured out how to catch web traffic with a title.

    Check facts? Why? When you can't even check your own spelling.

    They will fire steel shot but they will have to be proofed to say it's safe to fire steel. It's only newer guns that are proofed for steel.
    The older ones will need to be sent to England to be proofed as we have no proof house in this country. Problem is the costs attached with sending it to England and the chance with them saying that the gun can't be proofed because it's not suitable
    The problem I see is the options are limited


  • Registered Users Posts: 545 ✭✭✭ berettaman
    Registered User


    Lads,



    We all know this has nothing to do with bird safety and lead poison levels.


    This is a ban on shooting sports via the back door.


    No matter what your sport, Target, clay, wildfowling, rabbits or foxes this ban has to be resisted.


    We have been too quiet for too long. Gets us nowhere. Let the politicians know that we are not going to sit here and be screwed over...again.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,342 ✭✭✭✭ Grizzly 45
    Registered User


    Lets not "throw the gun into the corn" as us Germans say just yet. There is another problem to be taken into account.First this is an EU WIDE matter,so that figure is proably up in the 10'sof millions EU wide guns that are affected. Plus some very valueable and bespoke pieces..Want to try getting a H&H or Purdey reproofed to steel? Wont happen,and I cant see some of the Fudd brigade taking that one lying down.

    2] Like the EU semi auto ban,this then raises again EUCHR articles 5and 7.IOW if the EU bans somthing,which they must prove by their own rules is a clear and present danger,and that there are "viable alternatives",they will be looking at buying back a ****eload of useless shotguns from around Europe. That applies to to the Irish govt under article 42 or 47[?] of the Irish constitution. 300 euros is on the cheap side BTW,try closer to a thousand per gun to ship and proof in the UK.Then of course we have,
    BREXIT!
    Will the EU accept UK reproof standards to steel or alternative shot post Brexit?? Or will we be sending stuff to France,Belguim or Germany ??

    3] Even if this does get thru.You can be assured it will go to the European courts,which can be tied up for years,until there is a binding decision on the outcome,so ammo is still able to be produced and sold.

    4] Zero scientific evidence that this is a hazard either to wildfowl or to humans[apart from biting on lead shot and needing a new dental crown] that it is a hazard in game meat from rifle or shotgun pellets.

    5] Biggest danger in Ireland is the EU definition of wetlands. It is so broad ,it could take up every wet patch in an average Irish field.

    This time next week we are voting for a new shower of MEPs here.Are you ringing,emailing,taking them on at their meets and atthe doorstep on this issue??? We got a week,and thats a long time in Irish politics folks...Use it!:)

    Confucius say."He who says one man cannot change World. Never has eaten bat soup in Wuhan!"



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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,342 ✭✭✭✭ Grizzly 45
    Registered User


    Good article on this hoax.

    www.all4shooters.com/en/shooting/culture/the-myth-of-poisonous-lead-ammo/?fbclid=IwAR1TSexSTbyxp_21QpeYGR5GlZeNu39G9i_2JmILIqEvuzfa5hYMzsmaXMQ




    Let's start from the end: metallic lead in ammunition (bullets and primers) has no significant impact on human health. It's a fact proven by several scientific studies and research papers. Yet, anti-gun and anti-hunting movements spread the wrong assumption among public opinion that hunters and shooters are the most affected by lead poisoning because of their high exposure to lead contained in ammunition. Even if disguised as a public health concern, the underlying message is always the same: guns are evil and should be prohibited.

    To clarify the truth an article by Gloria Martini, secretary-general of AFEMS (the Association of European Manufacturers of Sporting Ammunition) tells the story of Danka Barteková, a Slovak professional skeet shooter and a member of the IOC Athletes Committee. The article has been published on Euractiv, the media platform focusing on European policymaking.


    Has metallic lead in ammunition (bullets and primers) any significant impact on human health? The answer is “no”.
    One of the most well-known athletes in her country and flag bearer for Slovakia at the Rio 2016 Olympics Games opening ceremony, Barteková started to shoot in 1998 at the age of 13, winning lots of medals from many European and World Championships. Among them, 5 medals from the World Cup Final, 9 medals from the World Cups and a bronze medal from the Olympic Games 2012 in London. Barteková is also a two-times European Champion, a 14-times Slovak champion in skeet and at the European Championships held in Nicosia, Cyprus in 2008, she set a world record by hitting 99 targets out of 100.

    In the process, Barteková fired many, many “poisonous” cartridges, of course. So, as Gloria Martini informs us, “Earlier this year, the Slovak shooter decided to undergo a blood test to measure lead level in her body. One, if not all, would expect to find an elevated blood lead level in the body of an athlete that for two decades has been shooting an average of 200 rounds a day five days a week and that has, in her career, some 500 thousand targets under her belt.”

    Ideology vs. reality
    The results of Barteková's test? Well, as you may have guessed, they are not what anti-gun zealots would expect. In Martini's words, “Her blood test result showed no significant concentration of lead in her blood just like any other individual in good health that has never shot a single round in his life."

    Is Barteková a lucky girl? Well, human exposure to other forms of lead may cause health problems – even very serious ones. But once again evidence proves that metallic lead in ammunition does not have any significant effect on human health. Actually, this is a well-known fact to anybody who takes a non-ideological, unbiased approach to the matter, since scientific proof has long been available. In 2015 AFEMS even organized in Brussels the symposium “The Sustainable Use of Lead Ammunition in Hunting and Sports Shooting: Facts and Emotions” with a panel entirely focused on the effects of lead ammunition on human health.

    Just as we are certain that Barteková's case is a further confirmation, however, we can be sure that scientific evidence won't affect the anti-gun movement at all, since the latter is too often ideology-based rather than evidence-based. And as the saying goes, if reality does not fit the concept – too bad for reality!
    __________________

    Confucius say."He who says one man cannot change World. Never has eaten bat soup in Wuhan!"



  • Registered Users Posts: 545 ✭✭✭ berettaman
    Registered User


    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    Lets not "throw the gun into the corn" as us Germans say just yet. There is another problem to be taken into account.First this is an EU WIDE matter,so that figure is proably up in the 10'sof millions EU wide guns that are affected. Plus some very valueable and bespoke pieces..Want to try getting a H&H or Purdey reproofed to steel? Wont happen,and I cant see some of the Fudd brigade taking that one lying down.

    2] Like the EU semi auto ban,this then raises again EUCHR articles 5and 7.IOW if the EU bans somthing,which they must prove by their own rules is a clear and present danger,and that there are "viable alternatives",they will be looking at buying back a ****eload of useless shotguns from around Europe. That applies to to the Irish govt under article 42 or 47[?] of the Irish constitution. 300 euros is on the cheap side BTW,try closer to a thousand per gun to ship and proof in the UK.Then of course we have,
    BREXIT!
    Will the EU accept UK reproof standards to steel or alternative shot post Brexit?? Or will we be sending stuff to France,Belguim or Germany ??

    3] Even if this does get thru.You can be assured it will go to the European courts,which can be tied up for years,until there is a binding decision on the outcome,so ammo is still able to be produced and sold.

    4] Zero scientific evidence that this is a hazard either to wildfowl or to humans[apart from biting on lead shot and needing a new dental crown] that it is a hazard in game meat from rifle or shotgun pellets.

    5] Biggest danger in Ireland is the EU definition of wetlands. It is so broad ,it could take up every wet patch in an average Irish field.

    This time next week we are voting for a new shower of MEPs here.Are you ringing,emailing,taking them on at their meets and atthe doorstep on this issue??? We got a week,and thats a long time in Irish politics folks...Use it!:)


    Spot on...however the biggest danger to us is the apathy of our members.:mad:
    Lads in clubs need to get up off their asses and when some mewling gombeen councillor comes to your door begging for votes you give him both barrels METAPHORICALLY.


    He or she will let their party and TDs know and on it goes up the food chain.


    I am not wasting time with politicians that are against what we do. I am focusing on the ones that are on side, allegedly.


    I am telling them that the reason they have my support is because they support shooting sports. The D4 Keyboard warriors are not shy about harassing anyone that supports what we do.


    It is time to let our politicians know what we are about. My message to any that call to me is this: I like shooting and I always vote. Where do you stand?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,027 ✭✭✭ Richard308
    Registered User


    what are they thinking, less shooting birds now than 20 years ago.

    Over 100,000 guns could be banned under new EU rules
    https://www.independent.ie/business/farming/forestry-enviro/environment/over-100000-guns-could-be-banned-under-new-eu-rules-38117388.html

    I


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,068 ✭✭✭ cavan shooter
    Registered User


    Richard308 wrote: »
    what are they thinking, less shooting birds now than 20 years ago.

    Over 100,000 guns could be banned under new EU rules
    https://www.independent.ie/business/farming/forestry-enviro/environment/over-100000-guns-could-be-banned-under-new-eu-rules-38117388.html

    I
    It wouldn't be too far off Ireland has approximately 210,000 firearms legally owned.

    There are people out there saying this is scare mongering, it's not scare mongering it's facts.

    Older guns are not designed to take the pressures in modern steel shot. Steel shot is not suitable for clay target shooting and definitely not suitable for hunting with a rifle. Can anyone tell me why you shouldn't shoot a fox or a deer with a FMJ round.???? Steel shot is the worst performing load around.

    The 2018 Coilte code of practice says no steel shot allowed in or around forestry. Trap shooting in the USA are not allowed to use steel and where it is used all trees and trap houses must be protected.

    Hevi shot lead substitute is +£50 per box of 25 bismuth is £40 per box for 30g loads. These are facts not scare mongering.


  • Registered Users Posts: 691 ✭✭✭ Conchurl
    Registered User


    The federation of county cork gun clubs are having the nargc down to give a talk on this topic


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,068 ✭✭✭ cavan shooter
    Registered User


    Too much talking being done, need action now.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,550 ✭✭✭ Odelay
    Registered User


    If I’m reading it right, the ban is for using lead over wetlands. I’d say only 20% is **** over wetlands.

    People getting excited over very little. Totally overhyped. I don’t believe it’s the thin end of the wedge either, that argument is used in every change of law but is rarely the case.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,822 ✭✭✭ Eddie B
    Registered User


    Odelay wrote: »
    If I’m reading it right, the ban is for using lead over wetlands. I’d say only 20% is **** over wetlands.

    People getting excited over very little. Totally overhyped. I don’t believe it’s the thin end of the wedge either, that argument is used in every change of law but is rarely the case.

    I don't think it's getting excited over very little. Firstly People who are in the same boat as myself having older guns are frankly screwed. Secondly, define "WETLANDS" in this country, during the winter period? Go on a days rough shooting, and you'll go from dry ditches, to wet boggy ground, to flooded fields all in the space of an hours walk.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,068 ✭✭✭ cavan shooter
    Registered User


    Its lead (full stop)

    If you are lucky they might say over wetlands , wetland as defined by Ramsar. The ramsar definition is defined as
    "areas of marsh, fen, peatland or water, whether natural or artificial, permanent or temporary, with water that is static or flowing, fresh, brackish or salt, including areas of marine water the depth of which at low tide does not exceed six metres.”

    that by my calculation includes cavan and
    leitrim fields in December


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 2,759 Mod ✭✭✭✭ cookimonster
    Moderator




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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,342 ✭✭✭✭ Grizzly 45
    Registered User


    Odelay wrote: »
    If I’m reading it right, the ban is for using lead over wetlands. I’d say only 20% is **** over wetlands.

    People getting excited over very little. Totally overhyped. I don’t believe it’s the thin end of the wedge either, that argument is used in every change of law but is rarely the case.

    You need to read the proposed EU directive,as to what the EU classifies as wetland,then be very worried,as it could apply to most of Ireland.
    These are the type of people we are going up against.
    https://newsletter.echa.europa.eu/home/-/newsletter/entry/terrestrial-environments-also-being-polluted-with-lead-ammunition
    The report in more detail
    https://echa.europa.eu/documents/10162/13641/restrictions_lead_shot_axv_report_en.pdf/6ef877d5-94b7-a8f8-1c49-8c07c894fff7

    From that report,the only 3 countries with no type of ban on lead shot in place.IRELAND.Poland,Greece... Guess who is going to get it in the neck on that folks???

    What definition does the EU use for "wetland?Called the "Ramsar definition".

    The definition used for defining the wetland is the following [1] “areas of marsh, fen, peatland or water, whether natural or artificial, permanent or temporary, with water that is static or flowing, fresh, brackish or salt, including areas of marine water the depth of which at low tide does not exceed six metres”.

    The Ramsar definition of wetlands is a comprehensive and internationally recognised definition

    So that basically covers every bog,and the foreshores as well as the lakes of Ireland.:(

    Confucius say."He who says one man cannot change World. Never has eaten bat soup in Wuhan!"



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,068 ✭✭✭ cavan shooter
    Registered User


    I note on Facebook lads are saying they will stock up on lead cartridges. I guess they missed the bit where it will be an offence to have lead cartridges in your possession


  • Registered Users Posts: 511 ✭✭✭ solarwinds
    Registered User


    And when all we have left is the full copper bullets for rifles they to will be banned as they are also toxic to aquatic life.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,524 ✭✭✭ grassroot1
    Registered User


    Odelay wrote: »
    If I’m reading it right, the ban is for using lead over wetlands. I’d say only 20% is **** over wetlands.

    People getting excited over very little. Totally overhyped. I don’t believe it’s the thin end of the wedge either, that argument is used in every change of law but is rarely the case.

    No I am afraid your not reading it right. This is a total ban on lead in ammunition.
    The possession of lead cartridges will be an offence.
    No lead bullets or shotgun cartridges.
    Currently their is a ban on lead cartridges over wetlands in some countries this is not what we are facing we are facing a total ban on lead in shooting sports.


  • Registered Users Posts: 107 ✭✭ JohnFitz2332
    Registered User


    If this BS comes to pass, can we switch to copper plated ammunition and carry on?


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,342 ✭✭✭✭ Grizzly 45
    Registered User


    I note on Facebook lads are saying they will stock up on lead cartridges. I guess they missed the bit where it will be an offence to have lead cartridges in your possession

    And who is going to go and check it???Mking laws is one thing,enforcing is another.

    Confucius say."He who says one man cannot change World. Never has eaten bat soup in Wuhan!"



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,342 ✭✭✭✭ Grizzly 45
    Registered User


    If this BS comes to pass, can we switch to copper plated ammunition and carry on?

    If you can afford copper plated shotgun shells?BTW in some contries,possibly even here,steel shot or steel bullets"COULD" be considerd Armour piercing ammo under some legislation.

    Confucius say."He who says one man cannot change World. Never has eaten bat soup in Wuhan!"



  • Registered Users Posts: 107 ✭✭ JohnFitz2332
    Registered User


    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    If you can afford copper plated shotgun shells?BTW in some contries,possibly even here,steel shot or steel bullets"COULD" be considerd Armour piercing ammo under some legislation.


    Sorry, I meant rifle rounds.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,524 ✭✭✭ grassroot1
    Registered User


    Grizzly 45 wrote:
    And who is going to go and check it???Mking laws is one thing,enforcing is another.


    Npws rangers, gardai (wouldn't they love another reason to refuse a licence) and fcuk knows who else
    Let's not let it get that far


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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,342 ✭✭✭✭ Grizzly 45
    Registered User


    We already do use in most rifle ammo a copper jacket over lead.The EU wants to change that as well going by this report ,as the report claims the lead from birdshot and rifle bullets is harmful in game meat...Of which there is no beliveable scientific proof.I even got myself tested for lead,since I have been eating lead shot game meat since I was a kid,played with lead soilders,have been shooting since I was 10 and handling lead in diving weights,and have still lead pipes in the water supply in my house...Guess what at 53 it came back utterly normal for a person of my age.Oh yeah no doubt I nibbled on my lead painted cot as well as a babba.So whats the deal here with this BS?

    Confucius say."He who says one man cannot change World. Never has eaten bat soup in Wuhan!"



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