Lead ban

kay 9

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwj86afyp6DiAhUQSxUIHbJJAxEQzPwBegQIARAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.independent.ie%2Fbusiness%2Ffarming%2Fforestry-enviro%2Fenvironment%2Fover-100000-guns-could-be-banned-under-new-eu-rules-38117388.html&psig=AOvVaw26gVvlHmmtnnuQaoysgLRN&ust=1558105085278784
May be of interest to some

Eddie B

If that goes ahead, I may hang up me boots for good

hedzball

" with farmers accounting for over half of guns users in Ireland"


Where do they get such shiote...


'Hdz

I right I

"EU and Irish civil Servants are currently looking at restricting the use of lead in shooting and fishing, a move that could see over 100,000 guns in Ireland become obselete."

How does the firearm become obsolete?

Shotguns will still fire steel shot.

I've seen custom copper and brass solids as bullets. Would be more expensive than the regular bullets, but obsolete?

Looks like the kid that wrote the article figured out how to catch web traffic with a title.

Check facts? Why? When you can't even check your own spelling.

meathstevie

I right I wrote: »

"EU and Irish civil Servants are currently looking at restricting the use of lead in shooting and fishing, a move that could see over 100,000 guns in Ireland become obselete."

How does the firearm become obsolete?

Shotguns will still fire steel shot.

I've seen custom copper and brass solids as bullets. Would be more expensive than the regular bullets, but obsolete?

Looks like the kid that wrote the article figured out how to catch web traffic with a title.

Check facts? Why? When you can't even check your own spelling.

From my own experience, steel shot is not near as effective as lead when it comes to reliably getting clean kills.

Older shotguns that are not suited to operating at the higher pressures more modern steel proofed ones do will become obsolete in this scenario unless you want to depart with a hand and half your face.

As for harder and lighter metal solid bullets for hunting purposes I don't know. I reckon they might ricochet easier and not expand and dump energy as well as lead equivalents.

It's all well and good in a controlled target shooting environment but I don't fancy the idea of a lighter and harder easier deflected bullet in a hunting environment.

JohnFitz2332

I have a Bettinsoli shotgun. Just called them and they said I'm f***ed if my shotgun's serial number is before 200000 (which it is) because it can't be re-proofed. God damn EU.

rugerfanatic

What about rifles eg 22lr?

richiedel123

rugerfanatic wrote: »

What about rifles eg 22lr?

As far as I know there is no replacement for lead so 22 and 17 will be as good as gone unless somebody comes up with some replacement.

richiedel123

I right I wrote: »

"EU and Irish civil Servants are currently looking at restricting the use of lead in shooting and fishing, a move that could see over 100,000 guns in Ireland become obselete."

How does the firearm become obsolete?

Shotguns will still fire steel shot.

I've seen custom copper and brass solids as bullets. Would be more expensive than the regular bullets, but obsolete?

Looks like the kid that wrote the article figured out how to catch web traffic with a title.

Check facts? Why? When you can't even check your own spelling.

They will fire steel shot but they will have to be proofed to say it's safe to fire steel. It's only newer guns that are proofed for steel.
The older ones will need to be sent to England to be proofed as we have no proof house in this country. Problem is the costs attached with sending it to England and the chance with them saying that the gun can't be proofed because it's not suitable
The problem I see is the options are limited

berettaman

Lads,



We all know this has nothing to do with bird safety and lead poison levels.


This is a ban on shooting sports via the back door.


No matter what your sport, Target, clay, wildfowling, rabbits or foxes this ban has to be resisted.


We have been too quiet for too long. Gets us nowhere. Let the politicians know that we are not going to sit here and be screwed over...again.

Grizzly 45

Lets not "throw the gun into the corn" as us Germans say just yet. There is another problem to be taken into account.First this is an EU WIDE matter,so that figure is proably up in the 10'sof millions EU wide guns that are affected. Plus some very valueable and bespoke pieces..Want to try getting a H&H or Purdey reproofed to steel? Wont happen,and I cant see some of the Fudd brigade taking that one lying down.

2] Like the EU semi auto ban,this then raises again EUCHR articles 5and 7.IOW if the EU bans somthing,which they must prove by their own rules is a clear and present danger,and that there are "viable alternatives",they will be looking at buying back a ****eload of useless shotguns from around Europe. That applies to to the Irish govt under article 42 or 47[?] of the Irish constitution. 300 euros is on the cheap side BTW,try closer to a thousand per gun to ship and proof in the UK.Then of course we have,
BREXIT!
Will the EU accept UK reproof standards to steel or alternative shot post Brexit?? Or will we be sending stuff to France,Belguim or Germany ??

3] Even if this does get thru.You can be assured it will go to the European courts,which can be tied up for years,until there is a binding decision on the outcome,so ammo is still able to be produced and sold.

4] Zero scientific evidence that this is a hazard either to wildfowl or to humans[apart from biting on lead shot and needing a new dental crown] that it is a hazard in game meat from rifle or shotgun pellets.

5] Biggest danger in Ireland is the EU definition of wetlands. It is so broad ,it could take up every wet patch in an average Irish field.

This time next week we are voting for a new shower of MEPs here.Are you ringing,emailing,taking them on at their meets and atthe doorstep on this issue??? We got a week,and thats a long time in Irish politics folks...Use it!:)

Grizzly 45

Good article on this hoax.

www.all4shooters.com/en/shooting/culture/the-myth-of-poisonous-lead-ammo/?fbclid=IwAR1TSexSTbyxp_21QpeYGR5GlZeNu39G9i_2JmILIqEvuzfa5hYMzsmaXMQ




Let's start from the end: metallic lead in ammunition (bullets and primers) has no significant impact on human health. It's a fact proven by several scientific studies and research papers. Yet, anti-gun and anti-hunting movements spread the wrong assumption among public opinion that hunters and shooters are the most affected by lead poisoning because of their high exposure to lead contained in ammunition. Even if disguised as a public health concern, the underlying message is always the same: guns are evil and should be prohibited.

To clarify the truth an article by Gloria Martini, secretary-general of AFEMS (the Association of European Manufacturers of Sporting Ammunition) tells the story of Danka Barteková, a Slovak professional skeet shooter and a member of the IOC Athletes Committee. The article has been published on Euractiv, the media platform focusing on European policymaking.


Has metallic lead in ammunition (bullets and primers) any significant impact on human health? The answer is “no”.
One of the most well-known athletes in her country and flag bearer for Slovakia at the Rio 2016 Olympics Games opening ceremony, Barteková started to shoot in 1998 at the age of 13, winning lots of medals from many European and World Championships. Among them, 5 medals from the World Cup Final, 9 medals from the World Cups and a bronze medal from the Olympic Games 2012 in London. Barteková is also a two-times European Champion, a 14-times Slovak champion in skeet and at the European Championships held in Nicosia, Cyprus in 2008, she set a world record by hitting 99 targets out of 100.

In the process, Barteková fired many, many “poisonous” cartridges, of course. So, as Gloria Martini informs us, “Earlier this year, the Slovak shooter decided to undergo a blood test to measure lead level in her body. One, if not all, would expect to find an elevated blood lead level in the body of an athlete that for two decades has been shooting an average of 200 rounds a day five days a week and that has, in her career, some 500 thousand targets under her belt.”

Ideology vs. reality
The results of Barteková's test? Well, as you may have guessed, they are not what anti-gun zealots would expect. In Martini's words, “Her blood test result showed no significant concentration of lead in her blood just like any other individual in good health that has never shot a single round in his life."

Is Barteková a lucky girl? Well, human exposure to other forms of lead may cause health problems – even very serious ones. But once again evidence proves that metallic lead in ammunition does not have any significant effect on human health. Actually, this is a well-known fact to anybody who takes a non-ideological, unbiased approach to the matter, since scientific proof has long been available. In 2015 AFEMS even organized in Brussels the symposium “The Sustainable Use of Lead Ammunition in Hunting and Sports Shooting: Facts and Emotions” with a panel entirely focused on the effects of lead ammunition on human health.

Just as we are certain that Barteková's case is a further confirmation, however, we can be sure that scientific evidence won't affect the anti-gun movement at all, since the latter is too often ideology-based rather than evidence-based. And as the saying goes, if reality does not fit the concept – too bad for reality!
__________________

berettaman

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Lets not "throw the gun into the corn" as us Germans say just yet. There is another problem to be taken into account.First this is an EU WIDE matter,so that figure is proably up in the 10'sof millions EU wide guns that are affected. Plus some very valueable and bespoke pieces..Want to try getting a H&H or Purdey reproofed to steel? Wont happen,and I cant see some of the Fudd brigade taking that one lying down.

2] Like the EU semi auto ban,this then raises again EUCHR articles 5and 7.IOW if the EU bans somthing,which they must prove by their own rules is a clear and present danger,and that there are "viable alternatives",they will be looking at buying back a ****eload of useless shotguns from around Europe. That applies to to the Irish govt under article 42 or 47[?] of the Irish constitution. 300 euros is on the cheap side BTW,try closer to a thousand per gun to ship and proof in the UK.Then of course we have,
BREXIT!
Will the EU accept UK reproof standards to steel or alternative shot post Brexit?? Or will we be sending stuff to France,Belguim or Germany ??

3] Even if this does get thru.You can be assured it will go to the European courts,which can be tied up for years,until there is a binding decision on the outcome,so ammo is still able to be produced and sold.

4] Zero scientific evidence that this is a hazard either to wildfowl or to humans[apart from biting on lead shot and needing a new dental crown] that it is a hazard in game meat from rifle or shotgun pellets.

5] Biggest danger in Ireland is the EU definition of wetlands. It is so broad ,it could take up every wet patch in an average Irish field.

This time next week we are voting for a new shower of MEPs here.Are you ringing,emailing,taking them on at their meets and atthe doorstep on this issue??? We got a week,and thats a long time in Irish politics folks...Use it!:)

Spot on...however the biggest danger to us is the apathy of our members.:mad:
Lads in clubs need to get up off their asses and when some mewling gombeen councillor comes to your door begging for votes you give him both barrels METAPHORICALLY.


He or she will let their party and TDs know and on it goes up the food chain.


I am not wasting time with politicians that are against what we do. I am focusing on the ones that are on side, allegedly.


I am telling them that the reason they have my support is because they support shooting sports. The D4 Keyboard warriors are not shy about harassing anyone that supports what we do.


It is time to let our politicians know what we are about. My message to any that call to me is this: I like shooting and I always vote. Where do you stand?

Richard308

what are they thinking, less shooting birds now than 20 years ago.

Over 100,000 guns could be banned under new EU rules
https://www.independent.ie/business/farming/forestry-enviro/environment/over-100000-guns-could-be-banned-under-new-eu-rules-38117388.html

I

cavan shooter

Richard308 wrote: »

what are they thinking, less shooting birds now than 20 years ago.

Over 100,000 guns could be banned under new EU rules
https://www.independent.ie/business/farming/forestry-enviro/environment/over-100000-guns-could-be-banned-under-new-eu-rules-38117388.html

I

It wouldn't be too far off Ireland has approximately 210,000 firearms legally owned.

There are people out there saying this is scare mongering, it's not scare mongering it's facts.

Older guns are not designed to take the pressures in modern steel shot. Steel shot is not suitable for clay target shooting and definitely not suitable for hunting with a rifle. Can anyone tell me why you shouldn't shoot a fox or a deer with a FMJ round.???? Steel shot is the worst performing load around.

The 2018 Coilte code of practice says no steel shot allowed in or around forestry. Trap shooting in the USA are not allowed to use steel and where it is used all trees and trap houses must be protected.

Hevi shot lead substitute is +£50 per box of 25 bismuth is £40 per box for 30g loads. These are facts not scare mongering.

Conchurl

The federation of county cork gun clubs are having the nargc down to give a talk on this topic

cavan shooter

Too much talking being done, need action now.

Odelay

If I’m reading it right, the ban is for using lead over wetlands. I’d say only 20% is **** over wetlands.

People getting excited over very little. Totally overhyped. I don’t believe it’s the thin end of the wedge either, that argument is used in every change of law but is rarely the case.

Eddie B

Odelay wrote: »

If I’m reading it right, the ban is for using lead over wetlands. I’d say only 20% is **** over wetlands.

People getting excited over very little. Totally overhyped. I don’t believe it’s the thin end of the wedge either, that argument is used in every change of law but is rarely the case.

I don't think it's getting excited over very little. Firstly People who are in the same boat as myself having older guns are frankly screwed. Secondly, define "WETLANDS" in this country, during the winter period? Go on a days rough shooting, and you'll go from dry ditches, to wet boggy ground, to flooded fields all in the space of an hours walk.

cavan shooter

Its lead (full stop)

If you are lucky they might say over wetlands , wetland as defined by Ramsar. The ramsar definition is defined as
"areas of marsh, fen, peatland or water, whether natural or artificial, permanent or temporary, with water that is static or flowing, fresh, brackish or salt, including areas of marine water the depth of which at low tide does not exceed six metres.”

that by my calculation includes cavan and
leitrim fields in December

cookimonster

Just some info for anyone thats unsure.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=480615&stc=1&d=1558198162

Grizzly 45

Odelay wrote: »

If I’m reading it right, the ban is for using lead over wetlands. I’d say only 20% is **** over wetlands.

People getting excited over very little. Totally overhyped. I don’t believe it’s the thin end of the wedge either, that argument is used in every change of law but is rarely the case.

You need to read the proposed EU directive,as to what the EU classifies as wetland,then be very worried,as it could apply to most of Ireland.
These are the type of people we are going up against.
https://newsletter.echa.europa.eu/home/-/newsletter/entry/terrestrial-environments-also-being-polluted-with-lead-ammunition
The report in more detail
https://echa.europa.eu/documents/10162/13641/restrictions_lead_shot_axv_report_en.pdf/6ef877d5-94b7-a8f8-1c49-8c07c894fff7

From that report,the only 3 countries with no type of ban on lead shot in place.IRELAND.Poland,Greece... Guess who is going to get it in the neck on that folks???

What definition does the EU use for "wetland?Called the "Ramsar definition".

The definition used for defining the wetland is the following [1] “areas of marsh, fen, peatland or water, whether natural or artificial, permanent or temporary, with water that is static or flowing, fresh, brackish or salt, including areas of marine water the depth of which at low tide does not exceed six metres”.

The Ramsar definition of wetlands is a comprehensive and internationally recognised definition

So that basically covers every bog,and the foreshores as well as the lakes of Ireland.:(

cavan shooter

I note on Facebook lads are saying they will stock up on lead cartridges. I guess they missed the bit where it will be an offence to have lead cartridges in your possession

solarwinds

And when all we have left is the full copper bullets for rifles they to will be banned as they are also toxic to aquatic life.

grassroot1

Odelay wrote: »

If I’m reading it right, the ban is for using lead over wetlands. I’d say only 20% is **** over wetlands.

People getting excited over very little. Totally overhyped. I don’t believe it’s the thin end of the wedge either, that argument is used in every change of law but is rarely the case.

No I am afraid your not reading it right. This is a total ban on lead in ammunition.
The possession of lead cartridges will be an offence.
No lead bullets or shotgun cartridges.
Currently their is a ban on lead cartridges over wetlands in some countries this is not what we are facing we are facing a total ban on lead in shooting sports.

JohnFitz2332

If this BS comes to pass, can we switch to copper plated ammunition and carry on?

Grizzly 45

cavan shooter wrote: »

I note on Facebook lads are saying they will stock up on lead cartridges. I guess they missed the bit where it will be an offence to have lead cartridges in your possession

And who is going to go and check it???Mking laws is one thing,enforcing is another.

Grizzly 45

JohnFitz2332 wrote: »

If this BS comes to pass, can we switch to copper plated ammunition and carry on?

If you can afford copper plated shotgun shells?BTW in some contries,possibly even here,steel shot or steel bullets"COULD" be considerd Armour piercing ammo under some legislation.

JohnFitz2332

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

If you can afford copper plated shotgun shells?BTW in some contries,possibly even here,steel shot or steel bullets"COULD" be considerd Armour piercing ammo under some legislation.

Sorry, I meant rifle rounds.

grassroot1

Grizzly 45 wrote:

And who is going to go and check it???Mking laws is one thing,enforcing is another.

Npws rangers, gardai (wouldn't they love another reason to refuse a licence) and fcuk knows who else
Let's not let it get that far

Grizzly 45

We already do use in most rifle ammo a copper jacket over lead.The EU wants to change that as well going by this report ,as the report claims the lead from birdshot and rifle bullets is harmful in game meat...Of which there is no beliveable scientific proof.I even got myself tested for lead,since I have been eating lead shot game meat since I was a kid,played with lead soilders,have been shooting since I was 10 and handling lead in diving weights,and have still lead pipes in the water supply in my house...Guess what at 53 it came back utterly normal for a person of my age.Oh yeah no doubt I nibbled on my lead painted cot as well as a babba.So whats the deal here with this BS?

Eddie B

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

And who is going to go and check it???Mking laws is one thing,enforcing is another.

Ok different country, but when I was in Scotland, the guy told us that they check pretty often for lead/steel shot.

Baker.22

I understand that the issue is that the EU has designated all of the island of Ireland as a wetland, therefore nobody can shoot on the island using lead in their bullets and cartridges and pellets.

This also has other implications as if everywhere is a wetland you cannot spread slurry on the land or have a septic tank at your house.

I have been told the law is there but not enacted yet, probably after the Euro elections!

cookimonster

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

And who is going to go and check it???Mking laws is one thing,enforcing is another.

#Restrict the sale of lead based ammunition to only those shooting on authorised ranges.
That would be a lot of folks fecked as I'd say theres more out there field shooting rather than range shooting.

#But the easier option for the powers to be is to ban the sale of lead based ammo to everyone!
Sneaky things like banning the sale but not the use, banning the import but not the sale /use would be the chicken **** way they could do it.

This may fizzle out and become one of those EU regs that by the time it drips down to each member state it becomes diluted, un-enforceable and impracticable?

Many of the food safety regs are not enforced across the EU and there are vast variations in thier application.......... but unfortunately the Nanny state that Ireland is may just jump feet first into the regs as seen in other directives.

But as a kind of contradiction to my opening, if they don't down right ban lead ammo from the shops, who indeed will actually be on the ground to enforce such regulations considering the lack of man hours invested into many of our agencies.

Grizzly 45

grassroot1 wrote: »

Npws rangers, gardai (wouldn't they love another reason to refuse a licence) and fcuk knows who else
Let's not let it get that far

When have you last seen a npws ranger out and about on your shooting?Ive never met one bar inside their offices in 40 years of shooting here.

When have you met a regular Garda that knew the butt from a barrel or the difference between a cartridge and a bullet?

Inland fisheries Ireland....Well any organisation that employs staff that parks two 60k 4wd and boat trailers on a emergency acces for search& rescue slipway in Limerick recently,and comes back to find them submerged as the Shannon is TIDAL up to Limerick...Do you think they would know lead from steel?

Simple thing is they havent got the manpower(or brains in some cases) to be doing any of this stuff.Look we havent even heard about what we are supposed to be doing about the 2017 EU directive and CF mag capacity...So how long will it take for this to become any reality here?

Baker.22

It’s more probable that they would just ban the sale of all lead ammunition, for some there is no other real alternative and for others the cost of the ‘non lead’ shot would be way too prohibitive, as it up to 5 times more !!

meathstevie

cavan shooter wrote: »

I note on Facebook lads are saying they will stock up on lead cartridges. I guess they missed the bit where it will be an offence to have lead cartridges in your possession

In a real world scenario I can't possibly see any judge or peace commissioner signing warrants to search the guts of let's say 85000 farms and dwellings to see if there's a single 28g lead cartridge around or for Gardai to come and inspect every address to which a gun is registered.

On a wider level, how will you possibly control the likes of wild boar in Belgium, Germany, France, Spain, Poland, Romania etc etc....The wild free range bacon is already causing serious agricultural damage as is, without lead bullets and cartridges how will you control numbers ? Packs of hounds and spears, crossbows or the stocks of anti-personnel mines that are still lying around ?

meathstevie

Baker.22 wrote: »

I understand that the issue is that the EU has designated all of the island of Ireland as a wetland, therefore nobody can shoot on the island using lead in their bullets and cartridges and pellets.

This also has other implications as if everywhere is a wetland you cannot spread slurry on the land or have a septic tank at your house.

I have been told the law is there but not enacted yet, probably after the Euro elections!

VRT is deemed non-compliant with EU law as well since years now. No sign of that having been implemented.

cavan shooter

meathstevie wrote: »

In a real world scenario I can't possibly see any judge or peace commissioner signing warrants to search the guts of let's say 85000 farms and dwellings to see if there's a single 28g lead cartridge around or for Gardai to come and inspect every address to which a gun is registered.

On a wider level, how will you possibly control the likes of wild boar in Belgium, Germany, France, Spain, Poland, Romania etc etc....The wild free range bacon is already causing serious agricultural damage as is, without lead bullets and cartridges how will you control numbers ? Packs of hounds and spears, crossbows or the stocks of anti-personnel mines that are still lying around ?

Lead will be banned in all ammunition, the possession of it will be illegal, except for Military and Police use, I kid you not that is what the proposal said. So I assume they will use the army and the Police.

kay 9

What are our options in rifle shooting? As in, what are the alternatives to lead under the copper coat or behind the ballistic tips.
Energy and drop charts will be wildly different.
Barrel burners is another problem possibly trying to get copper to retain the same energy down range as lead.

cookimonster

Plenty of info from Utube, RWS/Gecco are already producing non lead bullets.
Look up the usual suspects Field Sports Britian and its other half for some lighter information before trawling through the heavier stuff.

Grizzly 45

cavan shooter wrote: »

Lead will be banned in all ammunition, the possession of it will be illegal, except for Military and Police use, I kid you not that is what the proposal said. So I assume they will use the army and the Police.

Which just goes to show how thick/malicious these people are who are putting this together.It might be banned,but have bans ever sorted out anything??

Cass

You'll have a fight on your hands when once again "our own" are working for the PTB.

rugerfanatic

Cass wrote: »

You'll have a fight on your hands when once again "our own" are working for the PTB.

Don't know about that crowd. BIG accusation Cass..............

Been plenty of "our own" working against us & for their own monetary gain in recent years by cosying up to PTB :mad:

Cass

rugerfanatic wrote: »

Don't know about that crowd. BIG accusation Cass..............

What accusation? I made no accusation. I am stating a fact based on their own words from their own post from their pwn page.

Lead is toxic.
It is high time to replace lead pellets in shotgun ammunition. The amounts discharged into the environment are significant and are contributing to contamination of soils and waterbodies

The highlighted piece shows that they agree with a lead ban which is contrary to the majority opinion of other shooting bodies, people and the community as a whole.

So how is it an accusation?

JohnFitz2332

I'm a little confused about something. I was wondering, if this lead ban was to pass, why wouldn't .22 shooters just switch to copper rounds (not the point, I know - the ban shouldn't happen at all), and I'm seeing online that even copper rounds contain lead in the primer compound. Does this mean that if this does happen, that 22s (and other small calibres I'm sure) would be completely useless?

Baker.22

I think some of you are missing the main point.

No lead projectiles allowed on land which is designated as ‘wetlands ‘

These areas have been agreed on, some selected areas in Europe and also THE COMPLETE ISLAND of IRELAND, So it will not effect many many areas in Europe but it will effect all of Ireland

This is obviously unacceptable and this is where the possible complete ban on lead ammunition comes from.

rugerfanatic

Cass wrote: »

.............So how is it an accusation?

Just because they agree with it does that equate to the working with PTB. If that's the case most shooting organisations are in the same boat?

Cass

rugerfanatic wrote: »

Just because they agree with it ..........

Read that again, slowly. If they agree with the lead ban they are in direct opposition to the stance of the majority of the shooting community. Hence working with the PTB.

So i'll ask again, what accusation as they have said this themselves. It's not something i made up it's on their page, in the link above.

does that equate to the working with PTB.

YES.

Do you really need me to explain how being in agreement with the Goverment/EU on a lead ban reduces the level of opposition and makes it easier for them to pass such a ban?

If that's the case most shooting organisations are in the same boat?

How?

What other groups, bodies, organisations, etc. from the shooting world have agreed on a complete lead ban? I wasn't aware of any others.

Witcher

JohnFitz2332 wrote: »

I'm a little confused about something. I was wondering, if this lead ban was to pass, why wouldn't .22 shooters just switch to copper rounds (not the point, I know - the ban shouldn't happen at all), and I'm seeing online that even copper rounds contain lead in the primer compound. Does this mean that if this does happen, that 22s (and other small calibres I'm sure) would be completely useless?

'Copper' .22 rounds are solid lead with a thin copper wash over them. You can scrape it off with your nail.

richiedel123

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

And who is going to go and check it???Mking laws is one thing,enforcing is another.

I heard another rumour and it maybe only a rumour that another idea is they will not give the licence for cartridge and bullet manufacturers to make them. That will dry up the supply of them very fast too