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Lead ban

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,192 ✭✭✭ TeaBagMania


    see, like i said, you give them an inch... and this is what happens

    they wont be happy until we're hunting with rocks


  • Registered Users Posts: 545 ✭✭✭ berettaman


    see, like i said, you give them an inch... and this is what happens

    they wont be happy until we're hunting with rocks




    Sorry man,


    They wont be happy until we are not hunting...:rolleyes:


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,426 ✭✭✭✭ Grizzly 45


    This is what happens when the utterly ignorant or downright politically emotive agenda driven malicious legislate on subjects they have ZERO knowledge on,and do not wish to be informed or enlightned on the matter by anyone with knowledge on th topic.:mad:

    Confucius say."He who says one man cannot change World. Never has eaten bat soup in Wuhan!"



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,772 ✭✭✭ meathstevie


    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    This is what happens when the utterly ignorant or downright politically emotive agenda driven malicious legislate on subjects they have ZERO knowledge on,and do not wish to be informed or enlightned on the matter by anyone with knowledge on th topic.:mad:

    Hear, hear !! Nothing good ever came from knee jerk emotive legislation.

    Look at Ireland and organised crime linked murders.

    As a result licensed full bore pistols were essentially banned.

    Not all these murders involved the use of full bore pistols.

    None were committed with a licensed pistol by the license holder by the way.

    All these murders involved the use of some form of gataway vehicles so why have private motor vehicles not been banned ?


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,426 ✭✭✭✭ Grizzly 45


    You heard it here first!!! This literally 4 hours old!!!
    You had better get onto NARGC/FACE if you want to start making changes.


    Lead BAN:
    (Note - It seems that REACH committee will be the best change against ban - and meeting is on 19th!)

    Please note the following important developments:
    On 17 August 2018, the opinion[1] of the European Chemicals Agency (ECHA) on restricting lead shot over wetlands was sent to the European Commission (EC).
    On 28 October 2019, the EC produced its proposal for the REACH Regulation (see here and here).
    There will be a discussion by Member States on the EC’s proposal in the EU REACH Committee meeting on 19 November 2019 (see link[2]).
    EU FACE Members are required to urgently contact your Governments with the enclosed draft letter[3].

    Decision-making and the importance of lobbying:
    The only realistic scope to change the text of this regulation is through the EU REACH Committee where a qualified majority[4] of Member States’ Governments would need to take a firm position to change the text of the EC’s proposal. This means that the majority of EU governments, especially the bigger EU countries, need to take a strong position, supporting similar (FACE) amendments. In this context, all FACE Members are requested to immediately lobby their Governments.

    Oh yeah,apprently the Danish and Swede hunting organisations are selling us down the river.They pushed for a complete ban of lead in wetlands,but are saying now they arent pushing any further on this.Seeing that the genie is out of the bottle,and running amuck. And worse it seems that the ban on wetlands shooting with lead might already be a done deal!:(:(:(

    This is why I can't stress this enough!We can't rely on organisations on a national level here to be up to date on things by getting information 2nd hand a week from now and WHY it is so important to keep a wtchful eye on what goes on in the Barlemont in Brussels as much as the Dail.:mad:

    Confucius say."He who says one man cannot change World. Never has eaten bat soup in Wuhan!"



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  • Registered Users Posts: 545 ✭✭✭ berettaman


    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    You heard it here first!!! This literally 4 hours old!!!
    You had better get onto NARGC/FACE if you want to start making changes.


    Lead BAN:
    (Note - It seems that REACH committee will be the best change against ban - and meeting is on 19th!)

    Please note the following important developments:
    On 17 August 2018, the opinion[1] of the European Chemicals Agency (ECHA) on restricting lead shot over wetlands was sent to the European Commission (EC).
    On 28 October 2019, the EC produced its proposal for the REACH Regulation (see here and here).
    There will be a discussion by Member States on the EC’s proposal in the EU REACH Committee meeting on 19 November 2019 (see link[2]).
    EU FACE Members are required to urgently contact your Governments with the enclosed draft letter[3].

    Decision-making and the importance of lobbying:
    The only realistic scope to change the text of this regulation is through the EU REACH Committee where a qualified majority[4] of Member States’ Governments would need to take a firm position to change the text of the EC’s proposal. This means that the majority of EU governments, especially the bigger EU countries, need to take a strong position, supporting similar (FACE) amendments. In this context, all FACE Members are requested to immediately lobby their Governments.

    Oh yeah,apprently the Danish and Swede hunting organisations are selling us down the river.They pushed for a complete ban of lead in wetlands,but are saying now they arent pushing any further on this.Seeing that the genie is out of the bottle,and running amuck. And worse it seems that the ban on wetlands shooting with lead might already be a done deal!:(:(:(

    This is why I can't stress this enough!We can't rely on organisations on a national level here to be up to date on things by getting information 2nd hand a week from now and WHY it is so important to keep a wtchful eye on what goes on in the Barlemont in Brussels as much as the Dail.:mad:


    I understand that Representatives of the NARGC were in Brussels.


    I am led to believe that France are now aligned with the Irish viewpoint. NARGC Chairman has a lot of work done on this. A lot of Scandanavian hunting Associations get a cut of the Firearms licence fee so they will always tow the party line.


    You are right, much lobbying to do in addition to what has gone on before.


  • Registered Users Posts: 263 ✭✭ Mississippi.


    Can not see any link to the " enclosed draft letter " ?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,524 ✭✭✭ grassroot1


    The NARGC have done a lot of work on this at one point they were the only hunter organisation in Europe pushing back against the lead ban. The current chairman has done a lot of work here and in Europe.
    That said send an email to your TD asap demanding the ban is stopped we are really in the 11th hour on this one and unless Leo has a full in box on Monday we really are finished. We need 4 countries to object let's at least make sure Ireland is one.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 286 ✭✭ oldgit1897


    grassroot1 wrote: »
    The NARGC have done a lot of work on this at one point they were the only hunter organisation in Europe pushing back against the lead ban. The current chairman has done a lot of work here and in Europe.
    That said send an email to your TD asap demanding the ban is stopped we are really in the 11th hour on this one and unless Leo has a full in box on Monday we really are finished. We need 4 countries to object let's at least make sure Ireland is one.

    If Leo has his way he will sign lead away, he is trying to out-green the greens and has disowned the conservative rural part of fg already, the farmers and estates that have fishing and shooting, etc.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,426 ✭✭✭✭ Grizzly 45


    Lads...He doesnt need just his inbox full of emails.He needs his office snowed under with letters or postcards[even better].German shooters are sending literally Xerox paper boxes full of letters and postcards to Min Seehofers office on a daily basis on the proposed implimentation ofthe EU gun ban in Germany. We need to be doing the same to every TD we have here.
    Is a fiver worth of stamps and a plain post card too much for you to fight for your sport?With a simple message written on it like
    "Dear Minister Dirtbird.I am against the proposed EU leadban.For the reasons why,please refer to the following shooting organisations webpage" Sincerely...
    Why this old school method?It's too easy to block and delete emails as spam these days.A different matter to get rid of thousands of letters and postcards. Some have even suggested taping a five cent piece to the postcard as a "political donation to the party"so then the party is obliged by law to respond to you for the donation.Worth thinking about...

    Confucius say."He who says one man cannot change World. Never has eaten bat soup in Wuhan!"



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  • Registered Users Posts: 232 ✭✭ dto001


    Does anyone have a copy of the letter to send to your TD?


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,426 ✭✭✭✭ Grizzly 45


    Right folks,here is a nice detailed article[with maps] of what is defined as a "wetland" in Europe. Thats almost HALF of Ireland,and this is without the buffer zones proposed by the EU!!:eek:[Read a 400 meter lead free zone around any "wetland" which is very ambigiously defined sofar in this draft.But as it stands ye can forget shooting on any lakes or other open body of water] And yeah it will affect ranges as well here,as how many of them are built out on bogs or "wetland"?

    I'd suggest printing this article and passing it onto fellow non interweb using shooters.Your clubs and TDs and legislative bodies.Because if this does get thru in Ireland we are utterly goosed!!

    I would also suggest Regina O Dohertys office should be flooded by postcards,a design I can get made within a few days,or if someone is good with graphics here in less time, complaining about her attitude to the EU directive...But I think it would be too much to ask Irish shooters to be arsed to do somthing like print off some post cards or letters and spend a fivers worth on stamps to support their sport.:rolleyes:

    https://www.all4shooters.com/en/shooting/law/complete-ban-on-lead-shot-ammunition-for-hunters-and-shooters/?fbclid=IwAR29MccRz6ffOnb_Mrt1d9V0jKjBrZ-Rec06aUtKa2hwYrETBjB_witQbr4

    Confucius say."He who says one man cannot change World. Never has eaten bat soup in Wuhan!"



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,575 ✭✭✭ ZiabR


    Not to mention the impact it will have on the industry in Europe. I mean if this does come in, it will potentially render half of the firearms in the EU obsolete. The costs involved with this are massive. I know for myself, my guns are not steel shot proofed as they are a little older. So if I want to continue in the sport I love, I am going to have to fork out for a new gun. That and the fact that my current guns wont be sell-able.

    Its a complete belt and braces approach without any regard for the scientific research and evidence.

    This could put alot of people out of business.

    Just how close is this to getting passed across the EU?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 286 ✭✭ oldgit1897


    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    Right folks,here is a nice detailed article[with maps] of what is defined as a "wetland" in Europe. Thats almost HALF of Ireland,and this is without the buffer zones proposed by the EU!!:eek:[Read a 400 meter lead free zone around any "wetland" which is very ambigiously defined sofar in this draft.But as it stands ye can forget shooting on any lakes or other open body of water] And yeah it will affect ranges as well here,as how many of them are built out on bogs or "wetland"?

    I'd suggest printing this article and passing it onto fellow non interweb using shooters.Your clubs and TDs and legislative bodies.Because if this does get thru in Ireland we are utterly goosed!!

    I would also suggest Regina O Dohertys office should be flooded by postcards,a design I can get made within a few days,or if someone is good with graphics here in less time, complaining about her attitude to the EU directive...But I think it would be too much to ask Irish shooters to be arsed to do somthing like print off some post cards or letters and spend a fivers worth on stamps to support their sport.:rolleyes:

    https://www.all4shooters.com/en/shooting/law/complete-ban-on-lead-shot-ammunition-for-hunters-and-shooters/?fbclid=IwAR29MccRz6ffOnb_Mrt1d9V0jKjBrZ-Rec06aUtKa2hwYrETBjB_witQbr4


    Someone is taking the rise with that map, France, Germany, Italy and huge swathes of eastern europe with little or no wetland marked. I would imagine french farmland is very like Irish farmland, so why the discrepancy ?


  • Registered Users Posts: 232 ✭✭ dto001


    Emailed (away with work,so not able to post anything) all MEP's, members of the European commission and Local TD's but looking at who's in there I'm not fully convinced we'll have any support :mad::mad::mad:


  • Registered Users Posts: 545 ✭✭✭ berettaman


    dto001 wrote: »
    Does anyone have a copy of the letter to send to your TD?






    See below from our RGC secretary..




    Dear Sir /Madam,
    As you may be aware the REACH committee (European Chemicals Agency) are about to sign off on a ban on lead used in ammunition. The alternatives for lead are either:
    (i)Too expensive
    (ii) Have inferior ballistic qualities
    (iii) Compromise gun safety


    Some implications of this proposed ban are outlined below:
    · Older shotguns will not be able to take the higher pressures required with steel ammunition. Hunter’s guns will generally be of a vintage that is unsuitable for steel.


    · Manufacturers will not make bullets in a calibre smaller than .223(most hunters will have a .22 rifle which will not have ammunition available). These guns will have to be scrapped.


    · If someone is accidently shot with lead, unless it is at close range the lead will not need to be removed as it is an inert metal. Steel unfortunately will rust so amputation maybe the only resort as it would be extremely difficult to remove.


    · Steel shot is detrimental to commercial forestry plantations.


    The Irish Government are signing up to this without infrastructure in place (such as a Proof House), and without proper assessment of what this will cost Irish Firearm License holders.



    For many people in rural Ireland the sport of shooting is a rural pursuit that provides much needed social interaction and is a boost to mental health and physical fitness. Not to mention the financial boost shooting provides to the rural economy at the least busy time of year.


    Many farmers will consider a firearm a useful tool on the farm in terms of crop and flock protection.


    We are asking you to make it clear that Ireland is totally opposed to a ban on lead in sporting firearms.


    It is vital that you and your party make contact with Ireland’s representative on the REACH committee.






    Feel free to adapt and use..


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,426 ✭✭✭✭ Grizzly 45


    oldgit1897 wrote: »
    Someone is taking the rise with that map, France, Germany, Italy and huge swathes of eastern europe with little or no wetland marked. I would imagine french farmland is very like Irish farmland, so why the discrepancy ?

    Take a WAG as to who has then a much more efficent and on the ball lobbying group nationally in both farmers and shooters to be able to wipe this then?;)

    Confucius say."He who says one man cannot change World. Never has eaten bat soup in Wuhan!"



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,426 ✭✭✭✭ Grizzly 45


    berettaman wrote: »
    See below from our RGC secretary..




    Dear Sir /Madam,
    As you may be aware the REACH committee (European Chemicals Agency) are about to sign off on a ban on lead used in ammunition. The alternatives for lead are either:
    (i)Too expensive
    (ii) Have inferior ballistic qualities
    (iii) Compromise gun safety ...............................ETC


    Its good,but in this case pen to paper or printer ink to paper. Emails can be ignored or sent to Spam folders. Paper is alot more difficult to ignore,especially if it arrives by the Xerox paper box load.

    Confucius say."He who says one man cannot change World. Never has eaten bat soup in Wuhan!"



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,426 ✭✭✭✭ Grizzly 45


    Here is a template link for the EU heads and our Irish and ALL MEPS that are there.There is a search engine link at the bottom of the letter.


    The second letter,please feel free to use for our national repersentatives,just change out any reference to the EU to Irish references,and in the last line from

    Your action on this matter will influence my vote in the next EUParl elections.

    TO

    Your action on this matter will influence my vote in the next upcoming national elections.

    Get to it,if you want our sport to survive
    https://firearms-united.com/templates/?fbclid=IwAR0sP0elzWAdXB4KuLuqAyWcyG6T-sNzO3qwSTp7A92UEUHYFlpNxO7nb7I

    Confucius say."He who says one man cannot change World. Never has eaten bat soup in Wuhan!"



  • Registered Users Posts: 545 ✭✭✭ berettaman


    Grizzly 45 wrote: »


    Its good,but in this case pen to paper or printer ink to paper. Emails can be ignored or sent to Spam folders. Paper is alot more difficult to ignore,especially if it arrives by the Xerox paper box load.


    Spot on. I know my RGC is putting a few bob into this and writing to all the members of the oireachtas..


    Emails can be ignored, it s is a **** load of postal grief they need, if you can't lick a stamp to save your sport then take up snooker..:rolleyes:


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  • Registered Users Posts: 263 ✭✭ Mississippi.


    I see the Christmas stamp books are out now with the free stamp offer.
    20 letters for the price of 19.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,426 ✭✭✭✭ Grizzly 45


    Wonder does An Post do bulk mail rates,or mailing campaigns?:confused:

    Confucius say."He who says one man cannot change World. Never has eaten bat soup in Wuhan!"



  • Registered Users Posts: 232 ✭✭ dto001


    If its any help

    https://www.pc2paper.co.uk/

    :D:D


  • Registered Users Posts: 545 ✭✭✭ berettaman


    https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/contact-us/




    See link to all TD's and Senators email addresses..may be handy.;)


  • Registered Users Posts: 232 ✭✭ dto001


    Got the expected reply from the greens (you have to contact them all):

    I would firstly like to thank you for reaching out to me on this very important issue.

    I am surprised by your mail, as the umbrella organisation of hunters, the Federation of Associations for Hunting and Conservation of the EU (FACE), formally agreed already in 2004 with Birdlife “to ask for the phasing out of the use of lead shot for hunting in wetlands throughout the EU as soon as possible, and in any case by the year 2009”.

    Indeed such a European-wide ban of lead in gunshot is long overdue to implement the legally binding Action Plan of the Agreement on the Conservation of African-Eurasian Migratory Waterbirds, according to which all Parties shall endeavour to phase out the use of lead shot for hunting in wetlands by 2000. The European Union is a Contracting Party to that Agreement.

    Unfortunately, the ban of lead in gunshot for hunting in wetlands has still not been adopted by the European Commission, but we hope that this will be the case very soon.

    Moreover, the problem of lead in gunshot is not limited to wetlands. As such, we welcome that the Commission has asked the European Chemical Agency (ECHA) on 16 July 2019 to prepare a restriction proposal on the placing of the market and use of lead in ammunition (gunshot and bullets) and of lead in fishing tackle conforming to the requirements of Annex XV to REACH (the EU chemicals legislation).

    You can rest assured that this does not circumvent the European Parliament. It follows the regular procedures of REACH, adopted jointly by Council and the European Parliament in 2006.

    According to ECHA, alternatives to lead gunshot cartridges exist, and are technically and economically feasible. Therefore, a ban of lead in shot will not affect hunting or shooting sports. According to ECHA, the incremental cost to an EU wetland hunter (including costs for necessary testing, technical adaptations to shotguns, premature replacement of shotguns and the incremental cost of more expensive alternative ammunition) is in the order of €50 per year. The corresponding annual benefits of the restriction were found to be substantially larger.

    A public consultation is currently ongoing until 16 December 2019 with regard to the latest request by the European Commission. We invite you to participate in that consultation.

    Given the availability of alternatives to lead in shot, and the commitment of the hunters from 2004 for a phase-out of lead in shot in wetlands, I hope that you will reconsider your position and support this important measure to protect the environment.

    Again, thank you for getting in touch with me on this issue and I hope that this clarifies my position on the matter.

    Warmest regards,

    Ciarán

    Ciarán CUFFE
    MEP for Dublin
    Green Party Comhaontas Glas


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 286 ✭✭ oldgit1897


    dto001 wrote: »
    Got the expected reply from the greens (you have to contact them all):

    I would firstly like to thank you for reaching out to me on this very important issue.

    I am surprised by your mail, as the umbrella organisation of hunters, the Federation of Associations for Hunting and Conservation of the EU (FACE), formally agreed already in 2004 with Birdlife “to ask for the phasing out of the use of lead shot for hunting in wetlands throughout the EU as soon as possible, and in any case by the year 2009”.

    Indeed such a European-wide ban of lead in gunshot is long overdue to implement the legally binding Action Plan of the Agreement on the Conservation of African-Eurasian Migratory Waterbirds, according to which all Parties shall endeavour to phase out the use of lead shot for hunting in wetlands by 2000. The European Union is a Contracting Party to that Agreement.

    Unfortunately, the ban of lead in gunshot for hunting in wetlands has still not been adopted by the European Commission, but we hope that this will be the case very soon.

    Moreover, the problem of lead in gunshot is not limited to wetlands. As such, we welcome that the Commission has asked the European Chemical Agency (ECHA) on 16 July 2019 to prepare a restriction proposal on the placing of the market and use of lead in ammunition (gunshot and bullets) and of lead in fishing tackle conforming to the requirements of Annex XV to REACH (the EU chemicals legislation).

    You can rest assured that this does not circumvent the European Parliament. It follows the regular procedures of REACH, adopted jointly by Council and the European Parliament in 2006.

    According to ECHA, alternatives to lead gunshot cartridges exist, and are technically and economically feasible. Therefore, a ban of lead in shot will not affect hunting or shooting sports. According to ECHA, the incremental cost to an EU wetland hunter (including costs for necessary testing, technical adaptations to shotguns, premature replacement of shotguns and the incremental cost of more expensive alternative ammunition) is in the order of €50 per year. The corresponding annual benefits of the restriction were found to be substantially larger.

    A public consultation is currently ongoing until 16 December 2019 with regard to the latest request by the European Commission. We invite you to participate in that consultation.

    Given the availability of alternatives to lead in shot, and the commitment of the hunters from 2004 for a phase-out of lead in shot in wetlands, I hope that you will reconsider your position and support this important measure to protect the environment.

    Again, thank you for getting in touch with me on this issue and I hope that this clarifies my position on the matter.

    Warmest regards,

    Ciarán

    Ciarán CUFFE
    MEP for Dublin
    Green Party Comhaontas Glas


    Load of old crap, but i expect nothing less from that band of wally's.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,426 ✭✭✭✭ Grizzly 45


    "You can rest assured that this does not circumvent the European Parliament. It follows the regular procedures of REACH, adopted jointly by Council and the European Parliament in 2006."

    Blatant LIE! The Eu comission is circumventing the parliment by ONLY using the ECHA report for this further aim.

    According to ECHA, alternatives to lead gunshot cartridges exist, and are technically and economically feasible. Therefore, a ban of lead in shot will not affect hunting or shooting sports. According to ECHA, the incremental cost to an EU wetland hunter (including costs for necessary testing, technical adaptations to shotguns, premature replacement of shotguns and the incremental cost of more expensive alternative ammunition) is in the order of €50 per yea

    HORSE SHT!!!Any of the alternatives are either inefficent or too costly,or have not been enviromentally tested to see what their adverse enviromental effect actually is.Where does this Water melon get off by say technical adjustments to shotguns willcost about 50 euros per hunter?It will cost Mr Cuffe a whole lot more to send an Irish gun to Birmingham,or the EU to get it re proofed to stel shot,if at all possible.
    Feckin Green Watermelons..No clue on anything as usual.

    Confucius say."He who says one man cannot change World. Never has eaten bat soup in Wuhan!"



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 286 ✭✭ oldgit1897




  • Closed Accounts Posts: 286 ✭✭ oldgit1897


    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    "You can rest assured that this does not circumvent the European Parliament. It follows the regular procedures of REACH, adopted jointly by Council and the European Parliament in 2006."

    Blatant LIE! The Eu comission is circumventing the parliment by ONLY using the ECHA report for this further aim.

    According to ECHA, alternatives to lead gunshot cartridges exist, and are technically and economically feasible. Therefore, a ban of lead in shot will not affect hunting or shooting sports. According to ECHA, the incremental cost to an EU wetland hunter (including costs for necessary testing, technical adaptations to shotguns, premature replacement of shotguns and the incremental cost of more expensive alternative ammunition) is in the order of €50 per yea

    HORSE SHT!!!Any of the alternatives are either inefficent or too costly,or have not been enviromentally tested to see what their adverse enviromental effect actually is.Where does this Water melon get off by say technical adjustments to shotguns willcost about 50 euros per hunter?It will cost Mr Cuffe a whole lot more to send an Irish gun to Birmingham,or the EU to get it re proofed to stel shot,if at all possible.
    Feckin Green Watermelons..No clue on anything as usual.

    My side by sides are both 100 + years old, one with damascus barrels. Like fukc will i be shooting steel through either of them. I'll stockpile lead and tip on regardless if this tripe comes in. I'll adopt the French attitude, do what i like.

    The melons ? Bunch of communist school teachers looking to second job in the dail, voted for by brainwashed kids.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,832 ✭✭✭ Eddie B


    oldgit1897 wrote: »
    My side by sides are both 100 + years old, one with damascus barrels. Like fukc will i be shooting steel through either of them. I'll stockpile lead and tip on regardless if this tripe comes in. I'll adopt the French attitude, do what i like.

    The melons ? Bunch of communist school teachers looking to second job in the dail, voted for by brainwashed kids.

    Yes me too. My old side by side was passed down to me by my father. Must be over 50 years old. I won't be shooting steel through it either, or retiring it for a newer fancier model. It not only has sentimental value to me, but I love the feel of it, and it's a good killing gun.


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