Lead ban

tudderone

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

All is not lost ...Yet! there are also Lead Alloys that could be used and are acceptable once we figure out how or why the EU wont accept them either,yet will accept bismuth?

Because they are devious toerags that want guns gone and if you cannot get the guns, get the ammo thats used in them. Copper could be an alternative, i'd rather try to squeeze that down the barrels than steel. Not cheap either but not silly money like Bismuth.

https://ardeesports.com/products/eley-zenith-32gr

Rows Grower

https://www.independent.ie/business/farming/rural-life/gun-owners-facing-2000-bill-over-proposed-rules-on-lead-ammunition-39519488.html

no_4

Def not cheap! And what about us poor trap shooters, you can go through 5-6 boxes of an afternoons sport, at the minute that’s costing bout 40€, not many can afford that level of expense using the “alternatives to lead”

tudderone wrote: »

Because they are devious toerags that want guns gone and if you cannot get the guns, get the ammo thats used in them. Copper could be an alternative, i'd rather try to squeeze that down the barrels than steel. Not cheap either but not silly money like Bismuth.

https://ardeesports.com/products/eley-zenith-32gr

BattleCorp

tudderone wrote: »

Because they are devious toerags that want guns gone and if you cannot get the guns, get the ammo thats used in them. Copper could be an alternative, i'd rather try to squeeze that down the barrels than steel. Not cheap either but not silly money like Bismuth.

https://ardeesports.com/products/eley-zenith-32gr

Leeching from copper isn't great for the environment either. It can affect certain organisms much worse than lead.

tudderone

no_4 wrote: »

Def not cheap! And what about us poor trap shooters, you can go through 5-6 boxes of an afternoons sport, at the minute that’s costing bout 40€, not many can afford that level of expense using the “alternatives to lead”

Its a bit like the guards and the reloading scheme in the midlands, "expense is not a reason for wanting to reload". If you are like Phil Hogan taking home 300k a year and expenses of all kinds, you don't care.

Grizzly 45

Rows Grower wrote: »

https://www.independent.ie/business/farming/rural-life/gun-owners-facing-2000-bill-over-proposed-rules-on-lead-ammunition-39519488.html

Oh...That shower finally woke up then,when its all too late???:rolleyes::rolleyes:

And go and complain to the wrong person and dept... Ye should have been bothering your EU hero Phil Hogan,before he decided on a nice game of golf there recently..Sorry lads no EU grants for you on this either. Go back to sleep with you.:rolleyes:

Grizzly 45

tudderone wrote: »

Its a bit like the guards and the reloading scheme in the midlands, "expense is not a reason for wanting to reload". If you are like Phil Hogan taking home 300k a year and expenses of all kinds, you don't care.

Although reloading IMHO doesnt save you anything anymore in ammo costs.

tudderone

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Although reloading IMHO doesnt save you anything anymore in ammo costs.

I was watching "Life below zero" last night and there was a fella reloading rifle ammo, looked a whopper of a round. He said a box of 20 factory rounds were 60 bucks, where as he could reload a round for 1.50.

tudderone

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Oh...That shower finally woke up then,when its all too late???:rolleyes::rolleyes:

And go and complain to the wrong person and dept... Ye should have been bothering your EU hero Phil Hogan,before he decided on a nice game of golf there recently..Sorry lads no EU grants for you on this either. Go back to sleep with you.:rolleyes:

I thought FG were the party of the farmer ? Threw them under the bus there didn't they ?

Grizzly 45

FACE statement on the ban

https://www.face.eu/2020/09/statement-of-the-face-general-assembly-on-the-decision-of-the-reach-committee/?fbclid=IwAR3jGmvLX1qCnh1kcASUg0LMHoyfw5I9msqGuoD9xpTV1_mb71Hx3vUFnAI

Grizzly 45

tudderone wrote: »

I was watching "Life below zero" last night and there was a fella reloading rifle ammo, looked a whopper of a round. He said a box of 20 factory rounds were 60 bucks, where as he could reload a round for 1.50.

Factor in here in Europe;
All the legislation you could be required to comply with on storage of powder,that could range from being allowed to load at your kitchen table,[best option]to having to do it in a container on a range miles from anywhere...To building a factory standard H&S and all the rest under Irish legislation[worst option]. Yes there is legislation that allows for the manufacture of ammo here,but on an industrial scale only.

Storage requirements,and importing the powder will proably cost more than a pallet of your fav ammo.

Buying the equipment,doing no doubt an EU mandatory course on 95% law 5% on how to load a bullet
After all that your first bulet has proably cost 40 euros!!!:D

tudderone

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Factor in here in Europe;
All the legislation you could be required to comply with on storage of powder,that could range from being allowed to load at your kitchen table,[best option]to having to do it in a container on a range miles from anywhere...To building a factory standard H&S and all the rest under Irish legislation[worst option]. Yes there is legislation that allows for the manufacture of ammo here,but on an industrial scale only.

Storage requirements,and importing the powder will proably cost more than a pallet of your fav ammo.

Buying the equipment,doing no doubt an EU mandatory course on 95% law 5% on how to load a bullet
After all that your first bulet has proably cost 40 euros!!!:D

Yes, but thats just obstructionist nonsense. "Yes you can do it, but we'll make it so difficult,you will not bother". Its a nasty way of operating, and can the ptb/eu continue to piss off people who are responsible and law abiding ? They have done just that with 7 million shooters in Europe.

Grizzly 45

Most EU countries allow reloading in some shape or form. This is just a typical "Irish solution to an Irish problem". This was supposed to be reviewed even when the big Mayo chicken AKA Enda Kenny was elected back into power...12 years ago.:(

Yeah,thats another 7million Euro skeptics joining the ranks with this.

yubabill

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

FACE statement on the ban

https://www.face.eu/2020/09/statement-of-the-face-general-assembly-on-the-decision-of-the-reach-committee/?fbclid=IwAR3jGmvLX1qCnh1kcASUg0LMHoyfw5I9msqGuoD9xpTV1_mb71Hx3vUFnAI

So, if you have lead shot in your pocket within either 100 or 200 metres of water, you are presumed to be using it over wetland.

Habeas Corpus (presumption of innocence) started with Magna Carta, but it looks like the EU must have dropped it as part of the Brexit negotiations.

Grizzly 45

Cant wait for the first cases on this in court...

Dai John

I have a Yildiz auto and contacted them. Although no Fluer de lys proof marks the gun is good for steel but no tighter than half choke is advised. Watched a test on U tube and they used an old English gun after 250 rounds, no barrel damage, it seems to be a question of chokes. More to the point, how much are steel catridges ?

no_4

Half choke or less is always the advice
Worth looking up the cartridge pressures also
Cost wise the cheapest steel will be 2-3 x more exp compared with lead

Dai John wrote: »

I have a Yildiz auto and contacted them. Although no Fluer de lys proof marks the gun is good for steel but no tighter than half choke is advised. Watched a test on U tube and they used an old English gun after 250 rounds, no barrel damage, it seems to be a question of chokes. More to the point, how much are steel catridges ?

tudderone

But will it be effective ? I was talking to a lad who shoots a lot of wildfowl and he reckons steel is pure muck on live game. Hitting birds and they fly on, wounding, runners etc. Steel tends to pass on through the body of a bird rather than dumping its energy like lead does.

tudderone

yubabill wrote: »

So, if you have lead shot in your pocket within either 100 or 200 metres of water, you are presumed to be using it over wetland.

Habeas Corpus (presumption of innocence) started with Magna Carta, but it looks like the EU must have dropped it as part of the Brexit negotiations.

Who is going to enforce it ? Can they come onto private land and search your person ? If i was on private land and someone approached me and told me to turn out my pockets, they would be told what stop to get off at very quickly :mad:.

Grizzly 45

Exactly...You can make as many laws as you want. Enforcing them on the ground is a different matter. Without a doubt , estuaries, foreshore,rivers&lakes under state control. Your private ground...Be interesting alright.:)

tudderone

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Exactly...You can make as many laws as you want. Enforcing them on the ground is a different matter. Without a doubt , estuaries, foreshore,rivers&lakes under state control. Your private ground...Be interesting alright.:)

Clay and rifle ranges ? Who's job will it be ? Wildlife rangers ? Who will pay for it ? It looks like the whole thing could be unworkable on that front. The alternative ? No lead cartridges or bullets allowed into the country, or to be sold in gunshops. What a mess.

JohnFitz2332

So, this is genuinely and literally posing an existential threat to all shooting sports in Ireland?

tudderone

JohnFitz2332 wrote: »

So, this is genuinely and literally posing an existential threat to all shooting sports in Ireland?

Thats the desired outcome i reckon.

meathstevie

no_4 wrote: »

Half choke or less is always the advice
Worth looking up the cartridge pressures also
Cost wise the cheapest steel will be 2-3 x more exp compared with lead

Price wise the difference isn’t nowhere near that bad on the continent. The real problems are the cost of purchasing a new gun if this nonsense gets through and the fact that steel compared to lead is far more ineffective.

Never mind bismuth and tungsten based ammo, you want to be a City hedgefund honcho to afford that lark.

dto001

tudderone wrote: »

Its a bit like the guards and the reloading scheme in the midlands, "expense is not a reason for wanting to reload". If you are like Phil Hogan taking home 300k a year and expenses of all kinds, you don't care.

But your existing gun not being able to fire anything other than lead may be, to allow you use bismuth etc. which would reduce the number of wounded game. There should be a push on now to allow reloading for all hunters as this would help reduce the cost a bit es
pecially for older gun owners

The father went duck shooting a couple of years ago in the states where they use steel and he said you have to let them right in no more shooting at birds in orbit:D

meathstevie

dto001 wrote: »

But your existing gun not being able to fire anything other than lead may be, to allow you use bismuth etc. which would reduce the number of wounded game. There should be a push on now to allow reloading for all hunters as this would help reduce the cost a bit es
pecially for older gun owners

The father went duck shooting a couple of years ago in the states where they use steel and he said you have to let them right in no more shooting at birds in orbit:D

Have you seen the prices of bismuth cartridges ? You can buy a decent second hand gun for the price of a slab of those.

I still sincerely doubt if lead ammunition is really the threat to the environment the powers that be want you to believe. If it is what was put into the environment between WWI and WWII should have exterminated all life on the continent. You’re literally talking billions of bullets discharged all over the continent of Europe, some in concentrations centuries of hunting won’t accumulate anywhere.

Grizzly 45

Not only that .There is a difference between hard lead,as used in bullets and shells and soft lead,as used in paints,fuel and the like which shows up more in the nviroment than hard lead..Hard lead can be so hard that even hydrochloric acid,the stuff we all have in our stomachs that breaks down foods and bones its that strong,wont even touch hard lead.

Grizzly 45

tudderone wrote: »

Clay and rifle ranges ? Who's job will it be ? Wildlife rangers ? Who will pay for it ? It looks like the whole thing could be unworkable on that front. The alternative ? No lead cartridges or bullets allowed into the country, or to be sold in gunshops. What a mess.

More than likely,when the stocks run out of lead ammo,thats it bar military/LE production which are curiously exempt from this directive.:rolleyes:

GooseB

I wonder how this will hit the EU gun manufacturers if all lead in all ammunition gets banned? How big is the EU market as a proportion of their entire global market? If the October debate does herald this next step, nobody will want to buy a new gun if there'll be such a restricted ammunition supply in 2 or 3 years. You certainly wouldn't go buy a new air rifle for pest control after hearing that news, or a target rifle, or the thoughts of having to replace your shotgun might just make you so sick you just throw the towel in altogether.

What'll the sport look like then - people shooting steel shot from shotguns, hunters using monolithic copper bullets for deer, no rimfire and can anyone afford centrefire target shooting with the amount of rounds shot there with copper bullets? This is what they want - gun free Europe. The environmental issue is just a useful Trojan horse.

tudderone

GooseB wrote: »

I wonder how this will hit the EU gun manufacturers if all lead in all ammunition gets banned? How big is the EU market as a proportion of their entire global market? If the October debate does herald this next step, nobody will want to buy a new gun if there'll be such a restricted ammunition supply in 2 or 3 years. You certainly wouldn't go buy a new air rifle for pest control after hearing that news, or a target rifle, or the thoughts of having to replace your shotgun might just make you so sick you just throw the towel in altogether.

What'll the sport look like then - people shooting steel shot from shotguns, hunters using monolithic copper bullets for deer, no rimfire and can anyone afford centrefire target shooting with the amount of rounds shot there with copper bullets? This is what they want - gun free Europe. The environmental issue is just a useful Trojan horse.

100%.