Club head speed

ClutchIt · 29-01-2021 5:21pm

ShivasIrons wrote: »

In this thread, you have said that increasing distance alone will not lead to lower scores, this has been proven to be incorrect, there is research, evidence and a published book by Mark Broadie to show this.

Strength is a component of speed. An earlier poster said strength and power were irrelevant, just how fast you swing the club was relevant, since they are a component of speed they are not irrelevant.

The point you make about the LPGA versus most male golfers, doesn't counter the strength is important argument. You are trying to say strength isn't important because other things are a component of how far you hit the ball too? I never said they weren't.

The LPGA versus PGA tour example is an easy way to show between two groups of how much strength matters.

Strength is definitely a component of swing speed.
As both of you agree, it is not the only component.
Surely that is the end of this debate?

GreeBo · 29-01-2021 5:37pm

ShivasIrons wrote: »

I
The LPGA versus PGA tour example is an easy way to show between two groups of how much strength matters.

Yet the LPGA vs male golfers *isnt* an easy way to show how much it doesnt matter?:rolleyes:

GreeBo · 29-01-2021 5:42pm

ShivasIrons wrote: »

In this thread, you have said that increasing distance alone will not lead to lower scores, this has been proven to be incorrect, there is research, evidence and a published book by Mark Broadie to show this.

So Jamie Sadlowski will lower his handicap, if only he could hit it a bit further?
Same for Rory, DJ, JT, Bubba?

redzerdrog · 29-01-2021 6:44pm

Greebo what exactly are you trying to argue here? I am confused by all the whataboutry

ShivasIrons · 29-01-2021 7:13pm

GreeBo wrote: »

Yet the LPGA vs male golfers *isnt* an easy way to show how much it doesnt matter?:rolleyes:

So are you saying strength doesn't matter? What are you saying?

The LPGA versus male golfers is a very easy way to show club delivery matters, and it matters a lot. I haven't seen one person say it doesn't.

All your arguments boil down to you finding individual and once off circumstances where you think general principles don't apply.

Russman · 29-01-2021 9:50pm

GreeBo wrote: »

So Jamie Sadlowski will lower his handicap, if only he could hit it a bit further?
Same for Rory, DJ, JT, Bubba?

To be fair Greebo, those guys aren’t doing all the training they are, to hit it straighter or shorter. Drivers are pretty much maxed out with regulations, so the guys are improving a different component to the distance bit - their bodies. Even going back to Gary Player, some of the tour guys were trying to hit it further. Obviously it’s more in vogue now for whatever reasons. DeChambeau really opened a lot of their eyes to what was possible - granted few will take it to his extremes.

I think, similar to Trackman showing the new ball flight rules are almost the opposite to what was believed and taught for decades, the idea of distance being as important as it is, is a bit of a culture shock for golfers. It probably hasn’t fed into the club game yet but give it time I reckon. Some of the good juniors these days really hit it frightening distances. Obviously you still need a short game and decent course management to score but flat out distance is masking those deficiencies more and more.

GreeBo · 01-02-2021 1:01pm

Russman wrote: »

To be fair Greebo, those guys aren’t doing all the training they are, to hit it straighter or shorter. Drivers are pretty much maxed out with regulations, so the guys are improving a different component to the distance bit - their bodies. Even going back to Gary Player, some of the tour guys were trying to hit it further. Obviously it’s more in vogue now for whatever reasons. DeChambeau really opened a lot of their eyes to what was possible - granted few will take it to his extremes.

I think, similar to Trackman showing the new ball flight rules are almost the opposite to what was believed and taught for decades, the idea of distance being as important as it is, is a bit of a culture shock for golfers. It probably hasn’t fed into the club game yet but give it time I reckon. Some of the good juniors these days really hit it frightening distances. Obviously you still need a short game and decent course management to score but flat out distance is masking those deficiencies more and more.

Oh I know that, but ShivasIrons has specifically said
"you have said that increasing distance alone will not lead to lower scores, this has been proven to be incorrect"

If what they say is correct then the long drive guys would be the best golfers in the world and rory et al would get even better if they could hit the ball further.

GreeBo · 01-02-2021 1:03pm

ShivasIrons wrote: »

So are you saying strength doesn't matter? What are you saying?

The LPGA versus male golfers is a very easy way to show club delivery matters, and it matters a lot. I haven't seen one person say it doesn't.

You keep telling me that more power will deliver more speed, the LPGA shows that this is not always the case.

All your arguments boil down to you finding individual and once off circumstances where you think general principles don't apply.

Erm, your argument boils down to the absolute elite of the game, which is a couple of hundred people on the planet.

When have I given an individual example btw?

ShivasIrons · 01-02-2021 1:54pm

GreeBo wrote: »

Oh I know that, but ShivasIrons has specifically said
"you have said that increasing distance alone will not lead to lower scores, this has been proven to be incorrect"

If what they say is correct then the long drive guys would be the best golfers in the world and rory et al would get even better if they could hit the ball further.

You are completely misinterpreting this, what this means is that if you take any golfer and increase their distance they will shoot lower scores, not that the longest drivers are the best golfers in the world.

Also Rory would get better if he hit the ball further, but when you're dealing with the best players in the world any improvement they make only gives marginal gains.

For the shorter hitter this is not the case at all, take someone who hits it 180 and get them hitting it 195, 200, or more this will make a big difference to their scores.

ShivasIrons · 01-02-2021 1:58pm

GreeBo wrote: »

You keep telling me that more power will deliver more speed, the LPGA shows that this is not always the case.

Erm, your argument boils down to the absolute elite of the game, which is a couple of hundred people on the planet.

When have I given an individual example btw?

How does the LPGA show that more power doesn't deliver more speed? They'd be the perfect group to add power to.

You gave the example of the strongman versus Rory McIlroy, saying because he is stronger he should be better.

My argument boils down to general principles and what research has shown to be true, I have no idea what your argument boils down to.

monkeybutter · 01-02-2021 3:43pm

ShivasIrons wrote: »

There's multiple ways of increasing distance

Yes, increasing club head speed is one. Adding strength is another, more strength equals more power. Improving the sequence of the swing, power gets delivered more efficiently leading to more distance.

1. Adding club head speed
2. adding strength

i said all that matters is swing speed

all that improving the sequence does is improve swing speed or it makes zero difference

ShivasIrons wrote: »

You're not correct. Power is strength and speed combined, increase either and power increases, more power is more distance. 
 
 
 
Who do you think can have more speed/power, the stronger golfer or the weaker golfer?

then you try to combined the two together

strength can be a factor in producing the speed, obviously

in golf speed is all that matters

power is speed

GreeBo · 01-02-2021 4:26pm

ShivasIrons wrote: »

How does the LPGA show that more power doesn't deliver more speed? They'd be the perfect group to add power to.

Because they are not as powerful as the majority of men yet they still hit the ball further than them.

ShivasIrons · 01-02-2021 4:29pm

monkeybutter wrote: »

1. Adding club head speed
2. adding strength

i said all that matters is swing speed

all that improving the sequence does is improve swing speed or it makes zero difference

 
 

then you try to combined the two together

strength can be a factor in producing the speed, obviously

in golf speed is all that matters

power is speed

What point are you trying to make? That the end result, speed, only matters and that it doesn't matter how you get it, so long as you get it? And the only way to get more speed is by moving the body faster?

monkeybutter · 01-02-2021 5:08pm

ShivasIrons wrote: »

What point are you trying to make? That the end result, speed, only matters and that it doesn't matter how you get it, so long as you get it? And the only way to get more speed is by moving the body faster?

that it ok for you to be wrong from time to time

GreeBo · 01-02-2021 5:52pm

ShivasIrons wrote: »

You are completely misinterpreting this, what this means is that if you take any golfer and increase their distance they will shoot lower scores, not that the longest drivers are the best golfers in the world.

Also Rory would get better if he hit the ball further, but when you're dealing with the best players in the world any improvement they make only gives marginal gains.

For the shorter hitter this is not the case at all, take someone who hits it 180 and get them hitting it 195, 200, or more this will make a big difference to their scores.

You keep saying that strength = distance, it doesn't, ball speed = distance and the thing that influences that (assuming equivalent strike) is clubhead speed, not the strength of the player.

A JCB is a lot stronger than a Ferrari, but I know which one Im racing in.

GreeBo · 01-02-2021 5:53pm

ShivasIrons wrote: »

What point are you trying to make? That the end result, speed, only matters and that it doesn't matter how you get it, so long as you get it? And the only way to get more speed is by moving the body faster?

The only way to get more speed is by moving the clubhead faster.

redzerdrog · 01-02-2021 6:28pm

GreeBo wrote: »

Because they are not as powerful as the majority of men yet they still hit the ball further than them.

Apart from fact that they don't. The average driving distance on the lpga tour is 254 yards this is despite them being highly highly skilled golfers.

LPGA tour players has a skill level far far far above that of a hcap golfer. Yet someone unskilled like me can average the same distance off the tee because I am more powerful

ShivasIrons · 01-02-2021 6:32pm

GreeBo wrote: »

Because they are not as powerful as the majority of men yet they still hit the ball further than them.

All that shows is that club delivery matters in distance, which nobody is denying. How does this show that power doesn't matter?

What happens if you add power and strength to the LPGA players? Are you saying they won't hit it further? And if not, why not? The answer is, they will hit it further.

ShivasIrons · 01-02-2021 6:32pm

GreeBo wrote: »

The only way to get more speed is by moving the clubhead faster.

How is that achieved?

ShivasIrons · 01-02-2021 6:37pm

GreeBo wrote: »

You keep saying that strength = distance, it doesn't, ball speed = distance and the thing that influences that (assuming equivalent strike) is clubhead speed, not the strength of the player.

A JCB is a lot stronger than a Ferrari, but I know which one Im racing in.

I keep on saying that strength is a component of swing speed, so let's use your example to show the connection, ball speed comes from club head speed properly applied, club head speed comes from the power of the player, strength is a component of power.

Explain how strength doesn't have an influence on distance?

ShivasIrons · 01-02-2021 6:40pm

monkeybutter wrote: »

that it ok for you to be wrong from time to time

I have no problem being wrong, but at no stage have you shown how I'm wrong. Strength is a component of swing speed. Explain with references that this is not true.

redzerdrog · 01-02-2021 6:43pm

https://www.floridaphysio.com/2020/03/31/increasing-club-head-speed/

https://www.mytpi.com/articles/fitness/the_best_exercises_to_increase_clubhead_speed

https://www.mytpi.com/articles/swing/club_head_speed_by_age_group_what_percentile_are_you_in

monkeybutter · 01-02-2021 6:45pm

ShivasIrons wrote: »

I have no problem being wrong, but at no stage have you shown how I'm wrong. Strength is a component of swing speed. Explain with references that this is not true.

i just did, you just don't seem to be able to comprehend it

ShivasIrons · 01-02-2021 6:49pm

monkeybutter wrote: »

i just did, you just don't seem to be able to comprehend it

Explain it to me again, so I can comprehend it again.

All you need to do is show that strength is not a component of swing speed and give a reference to research or an article that shows this.

GreeBo · 01-02-2021 6:53pm

redzerdrog wrote: »

Apart from fact that they don't. The average driving distance on the lpga tour is 254 yards this is despite them being highly highly skilled golfers.

LPGA tour players has a skill level far far far above that of a hcap golfer. Yet someone unskilled like me can average the same distance off the tee because I am more powerful

and whats the average driving distance of male golfers?
220 yards or so, who do you reckon is stronger?

monkeybutter · 01-02-2021 6:56pm

ShivasIrons wrote: »

Explain it to me again, so I can comprehend it again.

All you need to do is show that strength is not a component of swing speed and give a reference to research or an article that shows this.

quote

Power is strength and speed combined, increase either and power increases, more power is more distance

- Quote

Strength + Speed = Power

no

speed = power in golf

(strength + flexibility + etc) = Speed

GreeBo · 01-02-2021 6:56pm

ShivasIrons wrote: »

How is that achieved?

By swinging it faster, you dont have to get stronger to swing it faster, equally getting stronger wont necessarily make you swing faster.

you keep telling us that it will, that simply getting stronger will make you hit it further, what we keep telling you is that it only will if that strength results in swinging faster, which it often does not, its not the simple guarantee that you keep saying it is.

GreeBo · 01-02-2021 7:04pm

ShivasIrons wrote: »

Explain it to me again, so I can comprehend it again.

All you need to do is show that strength is not a component of swing speed and give a reference to research or an article that shows this.

You said earlier

The power comes from the golfer and it comes from strength and speed, that is the speed the body moves. The golfer applies the power to the club.

But this is far too simplistic, no part of a golfers body moves at 130mph for example, the speed in the swing comes from compound levers and conservation of angular momentum.

You dont need to be very strong to use a whip for example, you need to be quick.
You dont need to very strong to swing a golf club.

Look at the driving distances on the Senior tour....or those guys stronger than we are?
Are they stronger than a bunch of guys on the PGA tour?

Or do they just swing the club faster?

redzerdrog · 01-02-2021 7:09pm

GreeBo wrote: »

and whats the average driving distance of male golfers?
220 yards or so, who do you reckon is stronger?

You are talking absolute nonsense now and purposely missing key parts of the discussion to make stupid nonsensical points.

You are trying to make your point by comparing highly skilled elite lpga golfers to hcap Male golfers.

The average driving distance for Male amateur golfer 219 yet for females of the same skill level is 148. Why?

ShivasIrons · 01-02-2021 7:12pm

GreeBo wrote: »

By swinging it faster, you dont have to get stronger to swing it faster, equally getting stronger wont necessarily make you swing faster.

you keep telling us that it will, that simply getting stronger will make you hit it further, what we keep telling you is that it only will if that strength results in swinging faster, which it often does not, its not the simple guarantee that you keep saying it is.

Why will getting stronger not make you swing faster?

redzerdrog has three articles referenced in his post above, all three talk about strength, are these three articles wrong?

Club head speed

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