Do you consider nationalists from Northern Ireland to be Irish?

Castlekeeper · 13-10-2019 3:53pm

Sleeper12 wrote: »

quote=alastair]The British Isles isnâ€™t an official term either.

It is actually. Its been in use since the 1500s.

Deleted User wrote:

Why do the islands of Ireland and the UK need to be grouped together? Answer that and you'll learn a lot about yourself.

Do we not have the Aran Islands? It is normal to group islands like this from a geography point of view. They are grouped together for geography terms. Ireland & the UK were part of the same country /land mass at one stage. Its important to group them together when teaching geography.

There is no need to group them together for any other reason apart from geography.

Castlekeeper wrote:

Where does pomme du terre fit in all of that? Calling it a potato doesn't make it thus. Just because some British agency decided the term sounded well and suited their sense of colonial entitlement doesn't give it any legitimacy. It's use is aggressive and possessive and is not to be tolerated. See previous example of Malvinas/ Falklands.

Again, the term is from the 1500s and relates to the geography of the two countries. Many posters refuse to see the difference between Great Britain and the British Isles. This is the same nonsense as someone saying that they are sick to the stomach when they see a UK flag in Ireland yet haven't a problem with a US flag in Ireland.

We are a Republic. We won & England lost. A hundred years later can we not move on?[/quote]
What are you bringing flags, Great Britain and England up for? Nonsense indeed. But as your on it there are plenty of Union Jacks flying in this country without fear of desecration, the US never oppressed the Irish, Great Britain is so designated to differentiate from Brittany, any reference to wider territories of Britishness should have extended southwards towards Northern France rather than westwards towards Ireland, but there was probably too big an army there for such lip to be tolerated.
The only reference to Geography in the term is the word "islands".

Ironicname · 13-10-2019 3:55pm

Deleted User wrote:

Iroinicname said there was a NI Flag. You said the Ulster flag was official. But, now you're saying it's not official for the purpose Ironicname was referencing it for.

I admitted I was wrong. I thought it was. No big deal. It's ok to be wrong sometimes. Anyway, It's a flag at the end of the day.

Northern ireland, regardless of some cloth, is a separate country to the Republic of Ireland. I wouldn't consider people from Northern Ireland to be from the same country as me for the express reason that they aren't.

It's commonly regarded that when people reference Ireland, they are talking about the Republic. Northern Ireland is commonly referred to as Northern Ireland.

It's be like me saying I'm off to dakota. North and South are different places.

Whatever flag they like or feel represents them is of no consequence to me.

alastair · 13-10-2019 3:58pm

Deleted User wrote: »

So, why did you post in reference to Ironicname when he said there is a flag for Northern Irish, and you said "The Ulster banner is an official flag - but only in existence since the 50’s." That's present tense.

Because it’s still the only NI flag in existence. It’s official status was derived from the governance of NI, which was curtailed by direct rule. The new government, even when not dormant, are not going to be rushing to try and introduce a new flag, given the animosity surrounding the whole issue. Is it an officially sanctioned flag? Yes it is. Is it the only flag specifically designed to represent NI? Yes it was.

13-10-2019 3:59pm

Ironicname wrote: »

I admitted I was wrong. I thought it was. No big deal. It's ok to be wrong sometimes.

I missed that, apologies.

Ironicname wrote: »

Northern ireland, regardless of some cloth, is a separate country to the Republic of Ireland. I wouldn't consider people from Northern Ireland to be from the same country as me for the express reason that they aren't.

A country is separate to a nation. Many in NI do not wish to be part of the UK, but were born on the island of Ireland and have as much right as anybody on the island of Ireland to consider themselves Irish.

Sleeper12 · 13-10-2019 4:03pm

Castlekeeper wrote:

It is actually. Its been in use since the 1500s.

I agree but I said I wouldn't engage with Chinese Whospers as we were going around in circles and I'm sure it isn't good reading. He is totally incorrect to say that it isn't an official term. It is the term /name used worldwide including in Irish schools. It has been the of name for 600 years as you say.

alastair · 13-10-2019 4:04pm

Sleeper12 wrote: »

I agree but I said I wouldn't engage with Chinese Whospers as we were going around in circles and I'm sure it isn't good reading. He is totally incorrect to say that it isn't an official term. It is the term /name used worldwide including in Irish schools. It has been the of name for 600 years as you say.

Again - that makes the term archaic, but not official.

Castlekeeper wasn’t agreeing with you btw - your quote was screwy so that is your own claim.

Castlekeeper · 13-10-2019 4:06pm

I've a suggestion, for geographical purposes why not call them " The Porcupine Islands"?
That it makes no sense, apart from geographically, is perfect, along with the exception being that the locals are a bit prickly about the whole issue.

Ironicname · 13-10-2019 4:07pm

Deleted User wrote:

A country is separate to a nation. Many in NI do not wish to be part of the UK, but were born on the island of Ireland and have as much right as anybody on the island of Ireland to consider themselves Irish.

Really? Should people from cork get to say they are from Sligo because it's in the same land mass.

The island of Ireland is two separate countries.

What is the difference between a nation and a country? Genuinely interested.

13-10-2019 4:09pm

Ironicname wrote: »

What is the difference between a nation and a country? Genuinely interested.

Google is your friend. BTW, best to understand what you're arguing against before countering :P

Ironicname · 13-10-2019 4:10pm

Deleted User wrote:

Google is your friend. BTW, best to understand what you're arguing against before countering

Cheers. Just googled it. Still seems like you are talking out of your arse.

13-10-2019 4:11pm

Ironicname wrote: »

Cheers. Just googled it. Still seems like you are talking out of your arse.

HOSTILE !

And you're wrong.

Ironicname · 13-10-2019 4:12pm

Deleted User wrote:

Google is your friend. BTW, best to understand what you're arguing against before countering

Oh and btw... The thread starts with "do you consider..." so my points are as valid as yours (although you are much better at being condescending and you know lots and lots about flags)

Hmmm, this condescending stuff is easy enough

Ironicname · 13-10-2019 4:13pm

Deleted User wrote:

HOSTILE !

Not even a bit. I just said it seems. I'm sure you are probably right.

13-10-2019 4:15pm

Ironicname wrote: »

Hmmm, this condescending stuff is easy enough

It's great craic altogether.

Mad_maxx · 13-10-2019 4:16pm

I view nationalists - Republicans as Irish

I view unionists as British

I am strongly in favour of a united Ireland

13-10-2019 4:17pm

Mad_maxx wrote: »

I view nationalists - Republicans as Irish

I view unionists as British

I am strongly in favour of a united Ireland

What about unionists that consider themselves Irish?

Rodin · 13-10-2019 4:18pm

The constitution allows those in the North to claim Irish nationality... and as the constitution is decided by the people....

Sleeper12 · 13-10-2019 4:25pm

Rodin wrote:

The constitution allows those in the North to claim Irish nationality... and as the constitution is decided by the people....

That's it in a nutshell.

Ironicname · 13-10-2019 4:43pm

Mad_maxx wrote:

I am strongly in favour of a united Ireland

I don't want the trouble it would bring to be honest. I don't see any benefit for anybody

downcow · 13-10-2019 5:02pm

Hope this is relevant. But at yesterdays Irish rugby game there were two flags held beside team. The Irish tricolour (flag of ROI) and the yellow ulster flag (flag of one province).
I want to be positive about this but i find it hard not to be further offended by it. I hope the IRFU were trying to include unionists (but obviously without asking them).
This team represents two countries and up to now only the flag of one is tolerated. For some reason this was changed.

Here is what is really interesting for me as a northern unionist.

I was fairly disgusted/disappointed by the flying of the flag of one province and one country, but i surprised myself as i realised how trans-formative it would be if the IRFU carried the flags of the two countries. As someone who can give no allegiance to the team currently, I would be routing for it if it gave this gesture to my community/country. What do you think. Would that be acceptable to you guys? Two flags ROI and NI

Ironicname · 13-10-2019 5:06pm

downcow wrote:

I was fairly disgusted/disappointed by the flying of the flag of one province and one country, but i surprised myself as i realised how trans-formative it would be if the IRFU carried the flags of the two countries. As someone who can give no allegiance to the team currently, I would be routing for it if it gave this gesture to my community/country. What do you think. Would that be acceptable to you guys? Two flags ROI and NI

I agree. There should be two separate flags for two separate countries

Sleeper12 · 13-10-2019 5:10pm

downcow wrote:

I was fairly disgusted/disappointed by the flying of the flag of one province and one country, but i surprised myself as i realised how trans-formative it would be if the IRFU carried the flags of the two countries. As someone who can give no allegiance to the team currently, I would be routing for it if it gave this gesture to my community/country. What do you think. Would that be acceptable to you guys? Two flags ROI and NI

The more inclusive the better imo.

Donnielighto · 13-10-2019 5:29pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I missed that, apologies.

A country is separate to a nation. Many in NI do not wish to be part of the UK, but were born on the island of Ireland and have as much right as anybody on the island of Ireland to consider themselves Irish.

In the same way Canadians and Mexicans are Americans.

Ironicname · 13-10-2019 5:30pm

Donnielighto wrote:

In the same way Canadians and Mexicans are Americans.

But not Hawaiians

Donnielighto · 13-10-2019 5:33pm

Rodin wrote: »

The constitution allows those in the North to claim Irish nationality... and as the constitution is decided by the people....

They are Irish if they claim it but not automatically?

What do we mean when we say Irish here, what are the parameters of a demonym?

riffmongous · 13-10-2019 5:34pm

Sleeper12 wrote: »

I agree but I said I wouldn't engage with Chinese Whospers as we were going around in circles and I'm sure it isn't good reading. He is totally incorrect to say that it isn't an official term. It is the term /name used worldwide including in Irish schools. It has been the of name for 600 years as you say.

No it's not, Folens stopped using it in their atlas years ago and the Irish government is clear it's not an official term

However, Minister for Foreign Affairs Dermot Ahern has ruled that the term is not used by the Government and is without any official status.

It was made clear by him that the term is not recognised in any legal or inter-governmental sense.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/folens-to-wipe-british-isles-off-the-map-in-new-atlas-1.1009971?mode=amp

bazza1 · 13-10-2019 5:35pm

Not our jurisdiction....UK folk! Those who want to be, or consider themselves to be Irish, can apply for a Republic of Ireland passport and they would be most welcome, IMHO

Ironicname · 13-10-2019 5:37pm

riffmongous wrote:

No it's not, Folens stopped using it in their atlas years ago

Case closed

Donnielighto · 13-10-2019 5:40pm

Just a thought on this, island of Ireland, Irish, then that means there is no demonym for the ROI specifically.

Donnielighto · 13-10-2019 5:42pm

bazza1 wrote: »

Not our jurisdiction....UK folk! Those who want to be, or consider themselves to be Irish, can apply for a Republic of Ireland passport and they would be most welcome, IMHO

Were there Irish people between 1800-1900

13-10-2019 5:42pm

downcow wrote: »

Hope this is relevant. But at yesterdays Irish rugby game there were two flags held beside team. The Irish tricolour (flag of ROI) and the yellow ulster flag (flag of one province).
I want to be positive about this but i find it hard not to be further offended by it. I hope the IRFU were trying to include unionists (but obviously without asking them).
This team represents two countries and up to now only the flag of one is tolerated. For some reason this was changed.

Here is what is really interesting for me as a northern unionist.

I was fairly disgusted/disappointed by the flying of the flag of one province and one country, but i surprised myself as i realised how trans-formative it would be if the IRFU carried the flags of the two countries. As someone who can give no allegiance to the team currently, I would be routing for it if it gave this gesture to my community/country. What do you think. Would that be acceptable to you guys? Two flags ROI and NI

Fantastic, but what flag would that be?

Donnielighto · 13-10-2019 5:44pm

downcow wrote: »

Hope this is relevant. But at yesterdays Irish rugby game there were two flags held beside team. The Irish tricolour (flag of ROI) and the yellow ulster flag (flag of one province).
I want to be positive about this but i find it hard not to be further offended by it. I hope the IRFU were trying to include unionists (but obviously without asking them).
This team represents two countries and up to now only the flag of one is tolerated. For some reason this was changed.

Here is what is really interesting for me as a northern unionist.

I was fairly disgusted/disappointed by the flying of the flag of one province and one country, but i surprised myself as i realised how trans-formative it would be if the IRFU carried the flags of the two countries. As someone who can give no allegiance to the team currently, I would be routing for it if it gave this gesture to my community/country. What do you think. Would that be acceptable to you guys? Two flags ROI and NI

The fact they refused to play the anthem when having a game in ravenhill in recent years indicated the irfu don't want to know about this.

The agreement was Phil's coulter's abominations at all games and local national anthem for home games, observed in the republic but not in the north for some reason.

Sleeper12 · 13-10-2019 5:50pm

Donnielighto wrote:

They are Irish if they claim it but not automatically?

We no longer have a constitutional claim on the north. We voted to remove it as part of the Belfast agreement /Good Friday Agreement. Our constitution now recognises the right of people living in the North to be Irish or British. In fact they can be both! Or they can choose one if they only identify with one.

Sleeper12 · 13-10-2019 5:53pm

riffmongous wrote:

No it's not, Folens stopped using it in their atlas years ago and the Irish government is clear it's not an official term

They removed it in 2007 but it is still taught in school in Ireland.

The fact that it was in department of education approved books means it was an official term.

What is the official term now then? All I hear Irish government saying is these islands of ours.

Ironicname · 13-10-2019 5:54pm

Deleted User wrote:

Fantastic, but what flag would that be?

Fleg

Donnielighto · 13-10-2019 5:54pm

Sleeper12 wrote: »

We no longer have a constitutional claim on the north. We voted to remove it as part of the Belfast agreement /Good Friday Agreement. Our constitution now recognises the right of people living in the North to be Irish or British. In fact they can be both! Or they can choose one if they only identify with one.

You cut out the second part of the post and so your response doesn't deal with what I was asking, they are both pertinent.

Sleeper12 · 13-10-2019 5:58pm

Ironicname wrote:

Case closed

I said hours ago that they stopped using it in 2007. My point is that it was in department of education approved books up until 2007. Despite what the government might claim, they recognised this term as the official term until 2007 at least. It was in books approved by the government to teach our children about the British Isles.

To this day there is no government directive stopping teachers from using the offending term.

13-10-2019 5:58pm

Sleeper12 wrote: »

The fact that it was in department of education approved books means it was an official term.

All I hear Irish government saying is these islands of ours.

And you knew what they meant. And it was an official term. You can add it to the list of

Hibernia
Zaire
Burma
ceylon
Stalingrad
Constantinople

And many many more.

Mad_maxx · 13-10-2019 5:58pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Mad_maxx wrote: »

I view nationalists - Republicans as Irish

I view unionists as British

I am strongly in favour of a united Ireland

What about unionists that consider themselves Irish?

They use the "im Irish" handle in a different context, a geographical description at best

Mad_maxx · 13-10-2019 6:00pm

Ironicname wrote: »

Mad_maxx wrote:

I am strongly in favour of a united Ireland

I don't want the trouble it would bring to be honest. I don't see any benefit for anybody

We don't have a choice not to buy it, it's happening, it will also likely involve a multi decade effort to put down a loyalist terror campaign

Mad_maxx · 13-10-2019 6:02pm

Donnielighto wrote: »

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I missed that, apologies.

A country is separate to a nation. Many in NI do not wish to be part of the UK, but were born on the island of Ireland and have as much right as anybody on the island of Ireland to consider themselves Irish.

In the same way Canadians and Mexicans are Americans.

Yes, a geographical description

Waters the Irish concept down to near nothingness

13-10-2019 6:04pm

Mad_maxx wrote: »

They use the "im Irish" handle in a different context, a geographical description at best

We can argue about definitions, but I believe approx 29% of Protestants believe they are Irish, and not just in a geographic sense. They are entitled to also wish to be part of the British State, and per the GFA they can.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-44398502

Sleeper12 · 13-10-2019 6:05pm

Donnielighto wrote:

You cut out the second part of the post and so your response doesn't deal with what I was asking, they are both pertinent.

Maybe I don't understand the question.

I thought I gave the parameters you were referring to. They get to choose themselves. Irish or British or both.

Donnielighto · 13-10-2019 6:07pm

Mad_maxx wrote: »

Yes, a geographical description

Waters the Irish concept down to near nothingness

Pretty much Ive asked a few times about what Irish means. Until that is decided it can mean a few things and they have different parameters. Genetic (not sure if that can be identified), geographic, cultural, ethnic.llQq

Mad_maxx · 13-10-2019 6:08pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Mad_maxx wrote: »

They use the "im Irish" handle in a different context, a geographical description at best

We can argue about definitions, but I believe approx 29% of Protestants believe they are Irish, and not just in a geographic sense. They are entitled to also wish to be part of the British State, and per the GFA they can.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-44398502

What percentage of unionists support a united Ireland? , that's the figure which signals accurately

13-10-2019 6:09pm

Mad_maxx wrote: »

What percentage of unionists support a united Ireland? , that's the figure which signals accurately

About 5% (and possibly increasing).

But, that's your bar and I wouldn't agree with it.

Mad_maxx · 13-10-2019 6:12pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Mad_maxx wrote: »

What percentage of unionists support a united Ireland? , that's the figure which signals accurately

About 5% (and possibly increasing).

But, that's your bar and I wouldn't agree with it.

If 95% of unionists oppose a united Ireland, that's their perogative, eventually the mainland will drop northern Ireland

We then have to make the best of things but unionists have been horribly indulged by everyone forever, that should end now, the Irish media could be first to cease doing so

Junkyard Tom · 13-10-2019 6:13pm

downcow wrote: »

This team represents two countries and up to now only the flag of one is tolerated.

NI isn't a country and doesn't have a flag or anthem so I don't know what it is you think should be displayed.

my community/country.

Your community has no exclusive right to dictate what flag is acceptable to the people of the north. Go away and agree to a flag acceptable to everyone in the north and see how you get on.

Would that be acceptable to you guys? Two flags ROI and NI

Absolutely not.

Sleeper12 · 13-10-2019 6:14pm

Deleted User wrote:

And you knew what they meant. And it was an official term. You can add it to the list of

These islands of ours wasn't in the education books recommended & approved by the Irish government. They could have insisted that it be changed but they never did. They officially recognised term British Isles by allowing it, in fact, approving it in our books and schools.

I'm sorry but to claim that we haven't recognised this term on a government level is plain nuts.

13-10-2019 6:15pm

Mad_maxx wrote: »

If 95% of unionists oppose a united Ireland, that's their perogative, eventually the mainland will drop northern Ireland

We then have to make the best of things but unionists have been horribly indulged by everyone forever, that should end now, the Irish media could be first to cease doing so

To be pedantic 100% of unionists oppose a United Ireland

Yeah, I agree, it looks like London is going to sacrifice NI on the altar of Brexit.

The DUP have been the best thing for a United Ireland since Charles Stuart Parnell. Arlene for Taoiseach!!!

Do you consider nationalists from Northern Ireland to be Irish?

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