3 New Navy Vessels for Irish Naval Service

Larbre34 · 24-01-2019 2:28am

In the event that NS heli ops are resumed at some point on a MRV, why does the Air Corps have to have anything to do with it?

Why shouldn't the Navy commission and train its own pilots and technicians and procure 3 or 4 naval helicopters for rotation to sea duty? They could be easily accommodated on Haulbowline with backup facilities for refuge and refuelling at Baldonnel and the Coastguard SAR stations.

I mean the requirements for a sea-going airframe are arguably even more specialised than they were when the Dauphins were acquired in the 80's. Giving the task to the Air Corps would distract from their own mission and be trying to stuff a square peg in a round hole as regards commonality.

3 x NH90s for starters!

sparky42 · 24-01-2019 3:48pm

Larbre34 wrote: »

In the event that NS heli ops are resumed at some point on a MRV, why does the Air Corps have to have anything to do with it?

Why shouldn't the Navy commission and train its own pilots and technicians and procure 3 or 4 naval helicopters for rotation to sea duty? They could be easily accommodated on Haulbowline with backup facilities for refuge and refuelling at Baldonnel and the Coastguard SAR stations.

I mean the requirements for a sea-going airframe are arguably even more specialised than they were when the Dauphins were acquired in the 80's. Giving the task to the Air Corps would distract from their own mission and be trying to stuff a square peg in a round hole as regards commonality.

3 x NH90s for starters!

To me having the Navy stand up its own section given how small the numbers of airframes we would be talking about is just duplicating roles and using up a limited budget just to create a separate "silo" effect. I mean you are right about the complexity but for just a few airframes getting crews trained up would be even more difficult for the navy.

If you look at the New Zealand set up they have Navy crew assigned but the helicopters are Air Force:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No._6_Squadron_RNZAF

I'd agree with the NH 90s btw which could lead on to getting the Transport version to replace the 139s when it comes time.

Larbre34 · 24-01-2019 9:17pm

Makes sense to me, but I've just spotted the 90 is ~300% the cost of a 139.

Perhaps the NS reluctance to include suitable Helo provision in their outline brief for a MRV is that they know full well a capable medium lift naval chopper is about 70% the price of a P60. I mean theres no point speccing a decent modular freight capacity for the MRV without choppers that can airlift it in all weathers.

I guess its the usual shortsighted procurement model in the Irish public sector, get them to sign off on the ship and bring the choppers into the mix later. A model which has been shown to be uneconomic in the long run, e.g.health, schools etc

sparky42 · 24-01-2019 9:34pm

Larbre34 wrote: »

Makes sense to me, but I've just spotted the 90 is ~300% the cost of a 139.

Perhaps the NS reluctance to include suitable Helo provision in their outline brief for a MRV is that they know full well a capable medium lift naval chopper is about 70% the price of a P60. I mean theres no point speccing a decent modular freight capacity for the MRV without choppers that can airlift it in all weathers.

I guess its the usual shortsighted procurement model in the Irish public sector, get them to sign off on the ship and bring the choppers into the mix later. A model which has been shown to be uneconomic in the long run, e.g.health, schools etc

If we are going to get any modern combat capable helicopter units then it's going to cost a lot more than our 139's which are just green painted civvie models. I wonder if with the increases in EU funding mechanisms we might be able to look at that for funding when it might come time? As to the NS position, I'm guessing that might be internal pissing match between them and the AC again.

Larbre34 · 24-01-2019 10:34pm

sparky42 wrote: »

If we are going to get any modern combat capable helicopter units then it's going to cost a lot more than our 139's which are just green painted civvie models. I wonder if with the increases in EU funding mechanisms we might be able to look at that for funding when it might come time? As to the NS position, I'm guessing that might be internal pissing match between them and the AC again.

Good point. And agreed about the rest

Markcheese · 25-01-2019 6:15am

What does the off shore oil industry use as medium lift choppers, they seem to get massive availability out of equipment in harsh conditions, without going down the route of silly money for military spec...

Larbre34 · 25-01-2019 1:47pm

Markcheese wrote: »

What does the off shore oil industry use as medium lift choppers, they seem to get massive availability out of equipment in harsh conditions, without going down the route of silly money for military spec...

You name it. Pumas, S-61s, S-92s, anything with twin or more engines.

Id imagine while not being military spec, they are probably pricey enough specs to their own harsh operating conditions

sparky42 · 25-01-2019 2:11pm

Larbre34 wrote: »

You name it. Pumas, S-61s, S-92s, anything with twin or more engines.

Id imagine while not being military spec, they are probably pricey enough specs to their own harsh operating conditions

And of course doesn't deal with the issue of people trying to shot at them. Right now we've got equipment that can't even do UN deployments safely, it's a false economy imo to get civvie helicopters for whatever price reduction it might bring.

Larbre34 · 25-01-2019 2:24pm

sparky42 wrote: »

And of course doesn't deal with the issue of people trying to shot at them. Right now we've got equipment that can't even do UN deployments safely, it's a false economy imo to get civvie helicopters for whatever price reduction it might bring.

Absolutely. Makes little sense to be upgrading APCs and LTAVs and getting armoured DROPs and SUVs without looking at our own air element on deployment.

Leonidas BL · 25-01-2019 2:40pm

Could the coast guard heli's operate off a ship or are they too big?

sparky42 · 25-01-2019 3:24pm

Leonidas BL wrote: »

Could the coast guard heli's operate off a ship or are they too big?

Yeah they are the civilian version of the design, however Canada hasn't had the greatest time bringing them into service:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikorsky_CH-148_Cyclone

Again though particularly if a) we'd look to leverage off another nations experience/training system to jump start the AC/NS (rather than starting from zero again) and maybe look to use some of the new EU funding mechanisms that might be available Id be looking at one of the European designs.

roadmaster · 25-01-2019 3:38pm

sparky42 wrote: »

Yeah they are the civilian version of the design, however Canada hasn't had the greatest time bringing them into service:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikorsky_CH-148_Cyclone

Again though particularly if a) we'd look to leverage off another nations experience/training system to jump start the AC/NS (rather than starting from zero again) and maybe look to use some of the new EU funding mechanisms that might be available Id be looking at one of the European designs.

I am not sure if we are still part of the nordic battlegroup but if we are that could be a entry point for your idea of us getting training

sparky42 · 25-01-2019 4:02pm

roadmaster wrote: »

I am not sure if we are still part of the nordic battlegroup but if we are that could be a entry point for your idea of us getting training

We are, along with part of the German one now I think. But yeah something like that I think would make sense rather than as I said trying to develop our own from start. To me, pick which ever airframe makes the best sense for us (ideally send some people to talk to those that have them in service and compare types), then look to work with who ever has it in use.

jonnybigwallet · 28-01-2019 9:40pm

The Apache sounds like the best choice to me!

Leonidas BL · 28-01-2019 9:51pm

jonnybigwallet wrote: »

The Apache sounds like the best choice to me!

Pizza?

salmocab · 28-01-2019 10:07pm

Leonidas BL wrote: »

Pizza?

Happy days

sparky42 · 28-01-2019 10:08pm

Leonidas BL wrote: »

Pizza?

I'm presuming that's what he's talking about, not really my favourite to be honest.

Leonidas BL · 28-01-2019 10:41pm

sparky42 wrote: »

I'm presuming that's what he's talking about, not really my favourite to be honest.

No, Domino's is nicer

mikeym · 30-01-2019 8:34pm

There should be a 4 star/Dominos/Apache built in Haulbowline

Sorry for going off topic.

Capt'n Midnight · 30-01-2019 9:50pm

jonnybigwallet wrote: »

The Apache sounds like the best choice to me!

People like to joke about an MTBF of 4 hours.

More like 22 hours now

And it can take passengers. If you don't mind strapping yourself on.

sparky42 · 30-01-2019 11:11pm

You mean picking an expensive heavy attack helicopter for a maritime helicopter is a bit silly?

Leonidas BL · 30-01-2019 11:51pm

sparky42 wrote: »

You mean picking an expensive heavy attack helicopter for a maritime helicopter is a bit silly?

Unless you wanna blow up the fishing boats that's out of range of the 76mm?

sparky42 · 30-01-2019 11:57pm

Leonidas BL wrote: »

Unless you wanna blow up the fishing boats that's out of range of the 76mm?

Hell we can do that for cheaper, just stick a 127mm on the MRV... Or buy the armed Fennec version, still a lot fecking cheaper than an Apache.

Leonidas BL · 31-01-2019 1:06am

I think he was just rising ya

sparky42 · 31-01-2019 1:34am

Leonidas BL wrote: »

I think he was just rising ya

Still a few Fennec's that could be armed on occasion wouldn't be the worst thing to look at for foreign deployments with small logistical demands?

Leonidas BL · 31-01-2019 1:49am

sparky42 wrote: »

Still a few Fennec's that could be armed on occasion wouldn't be the worst thing to look at for foreign deployments with small logistical demands?

Ya defo an AH-6 or an EC635(which shares engine with the 135), but and Apache is overkill.

BTW I was meaning to start a thread on the Pajero replacement. I wanna know what ya think.

Yawlboy · 01-02-2019 3:34am

Leonidas BL wrote: »

BTW I was meaning to start a thread on the Pajero replacement. I wanna know what ya think.

Easy the new Land Rover Defender ;-)

Or if the accountants get their way the Dacia Duster

Leonidas BL · 01-02-2019 12:52pm

Yawlboy wrote: »

Easy the new Land Rover Defender ;-)

Or if the accountants get their way the Dacia Duster

Yuck. Im gonna start a new thread on it.

jonnybigwallet · 02-02-2019 9:52am

And for the chief of staff a Bentaygo!

scuby · 02-02-2019 4:32pm

Just looking at a program on discovery, HDMS Absalon looks good. Room for a lynx chopper also that can refuel without landing, doing a hover. A flex deck with a door opening on the Hull.. Might be to big for us?

3 New Navy Vessels for Irish Naval Service

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