Trevor Deely case - new witness

Ace Attorney · 06-12-2019 12:27am

the unknown bloke at the gate is the guy imo. hanging around the gate when trevor went in the building, unknow words exchanged, posiibly him seen following him in later cctv footage 6 mins inot the walk. i wonder how many opportunity's on the path that trevor took that night to lob someone into the high fast river after hurting them knocking them out etc.

chicorytip · 06-12-2019 12:31am

noodler wrote: »

I'm not entirely sure why you think it's a bad thing tbh.

It's not a profession to be encouraged.

It (the law) was a good thing for the residents of these particular areas but a bad thing for the (now criminalised) ladies forced to sell their bodies to make a few pounds or to feed an addiction to drink or drugs. The punters and pimps still mostly got away scott free of course.

Omackeral · 06-12-2019 12:39am

tdf7187 wrote: »

He either fell into the canal, or he got in a row with a criminal that ended badly are the more likely theories IMO.

smelly sock wrote: »

He may have been put in a car or van. More likely to have been a pimp he fell foul of.

What about the possibility of a drunk driver hitting him? Christmas party season in full swing. No taxis that night so some fool decides to drive into town. Drink driving probably not as taboo 20 years ago as it is now to some people. Bad conditions coupled with poor visibility and a drunk fella maybe walking on the road. Maybe this hypothetical driver had a passenger with them. Possible enough.

smelly sock · 06-12-2019 12:41am

Omackeral wrote: »

What about the possibility of a drunk driver hitting him? Christmas party season in full swing. No taxis that night so some fool decides to drive into town. Drink driving probably not as taboo 20 years ago as it is now to some people. Bad conditions coupled with poor visibility and a drunk fella maybe walking on the road. Maybe this hypothetical driver had a passenger with them. Possible enough.

No.

0gac3yjefb5sv7 · 06-12-2019 12:41am

Very strange be went to Alaska alone the week before. The girl he met was never contacted? Odd.

Something not right with that.

Omackeral · 06-12-2019 12:42am

smelly sock wrote: »

No.

Excellent response. Well thought argued.

20Wheel · 06-12-2019 12:42am

I wouldn't rule out premeditation.

Mainly because of the strange behaviour of the man in black.

From what I remember of the footage, x arrives in good time before Trevors arrival at the corner, where he immediately makes/takes a call. And proceeds to patiently wait some 30 mins without incident.

He then makes/takes a call very soon before Trevor arrives at the corner. And steps out seconds before Trevors arrival. His first change in some time.

Then as Trevor passes him, he takes a few seconds to check there's no one following, before immediately following Trevor.
And having a quick face to face chat.

This is all very consistent with identifying and targeting someone.

The same man seemingly hasn't identified himself to the gardai. To account for his behaviour that night.

Each factor alone can be explained away, but the odds get chipped away at with each one. Until premeditation starts to look like a possibility.

KWAG2019 · 06-12-2019 12:45am

Pheonix10 wrote: »

Very strange be went to Alaska alone the week before. The girl he met was never contacted? Odd.

Something not right with that.

IIRC she was contacted and eliminated from enquiries. His best friend was an Aer Lingus steward who got him very cheap flights as Aer Lingus employee could do.

All that said it was an unusual trip.

Fr_Dougal · 06-12-2019 12:49am

Omackeral wrote: »

What about the possibility of a drunk driver hitting him? Christmas party season in full swing. No taxis that night so some fool decides to drive into town. Drink driving probably not as taboo 20 years ago as it is now to some people. Bad conditions coupled with poor visibility and a drunk fella maybe walking on the road. Maybe this hypothetical driver had a passenger with them. Possible enough.

It’s possible, but then you’d probably be dealing with a case of hit and run, unless the drivers were hardened criminals.

20Wheel · 06-12-2019 12:52am

Omackeral wrote: »

What about the possibility of a drunk driver hitting him? Christmas party season in full swing. No taxis that night so some fool decides to drive into town. Drink driving probably not as taboo 20 years ago as it is now to some people. Bad conditions coupled with poor visibility and a drunk fella maybe walking on the road. Maybe this hypothetical driver had a passenger with them. Possible enough.

Car, river, or house.

If he never made it back to his place then one of these is necessary for him to disappear.

Its a hole in the premeditation theory, which I otherwise have some confidence in.

How do you plan to get someone into a car against their will, in a city center, without 1000 loose ends.

A causing death by drink driving charge is plenty reason to keep quiet.
And the price of finally coming out with a public confession just keeps going up with each passing day/year.

KWAG2019 · 06-12-2019 12:56am

The man outside is obviously of great interest. The time gaps on the CCTV if accurate show that there was quite a long interval for interaction between them. If he was a regular in that area and I think he was I’m sure lots of people knew who he was and what his game was.

dark crystal · 06-12-2019 12:59am

I think the poor lad was most likely mugged (very possibly by the man outside the gates), a struggle ensued and he was killed. The man took his wallet, phone etc.

The only puzzling thing is where his body could be.

I really hope they crack this case some day and his family can finally have some modicum of peace.

Muahahaha · 06-12-2019 1:11am

While I think the abduction theory is the most likely what I cant get my head around is if he had a run in with a hardened criminal how he ended up dead from it. I reaslise these people are nut jobs but at the same time they dont want the hassle or risk from having to dispose of a body. And if there were a fight and he ended up unconscious surely they would just leave him there?

KWAG2019 · 06-12-2019 1:22am

20Wheel wrote: »

Car, river, or house.

If he never made it back to his place then one of these is necessary for him to disappear.

Its a hole in the premeditation theory, which I otherwise have some confidence in.

How do you plan to get someone into a car against their will, in a city center, without 1000 loose ends.

A causing death by drink driving charge is plenty reason to keep quiet.
And the price of finally coming out with a public confession just keeps going up with each passing day/year.

I think your opening sentence gives great clarity to the problem of the disappearance.

At that hour of a winter’s morning on a deserted inner city street in an era before widespread CCTV and during a taxi strike it’s very possible. But it’s going to take more than one person to do it, victim conscious or unconscious.

Raconteuse · 06-12-2019 1:24am

20Wheel wrote: »

I wouldn't rule out premeditation.

Mainly because of the strange behaviour of the man in black.

From what I remember of the footage, x arrives in good time before Trevors arrival at the corner, where he immediately makes/takes a call. And proceeds to patiently wait some 30 mins without incident.

He then makes/takes a call very soon before Trevor arrives at the corner. And steps out seconds before Trevors arrival. His first change in some time.

Then as Trevor passes him, he takes a few seconds to check there's no one following, before immediately following Trevor.
And having a quick face to face chat.

This is all very consistent with identifying and targeting someone.

The same man seemingly hasn't identified himself to the gardai. To account for his behaviour that night.

Each factor alone can be explained away, but the odds get chipped away at with each one. Until premeditation starts to look like a possibility.

Yep. I do see people's point when they say no matter how crazed those guys are, they wouldn't just kill someone over a one-off incident, but it looks tremendously like that guy was waiting for him. I mean Marioara Rostas - that was over nothing; just wrong place, wrong time.

Not a peep for nearly half an hour despite standing in the rain all that time and then stepping onto the footpath while on the phone seconds before Trevor arrives. And not stepping back under the pillar - waiting out on the path for the duration of those final moments before Trevor rocks up... Then following him right to the staff gate. Then captured on CCTV still at the staff gate and looking up after Trevor had gone inside.

To me it seems like there was an incident in the pub - totally innocuous to Trevor (otherwise he would surely have been shaken or talking about it when he had a chat with his colleague on the night shift) but which bothered some dangerous people, who picked up that he worked in the BoI office down the road.

06-12-2019 1:28am

Raconteuse wrote: »

.... looking up after Trevor had gone inside.

To me it seems like there was an incident in the pub - totally innocuous to Trevor (otherwise he would surely have been shaken or talking about it when he had a chat with his colleague on the night shift) but which bothered some dangerous people, who picked up that he worked in the BoI office down the road.

And they also picked up on the fact he was going to pop into work at 3am ish?

Peter Flynt · 06-12-2019 1:29am

The search for Trevor Deely in Chapelizod a couple of years back tells me that the Gardai (and probably Trevor's family) do not believe he accidentally fell into the canal and ended up at sea and it seems they are more likely to believe that Trevor did become a victim of criminality.

Raconteuse · 06-12-2019 1:31am

Augeo wrote: »

And they also picked up on the fact he was going to pop into work at 3am ish?

"I'm gonna pop into the office to get an umbrella on my way home" could be picked up if they were keeping an eye/ear on him.

punisher5112 · 06-12-2019 1:32am

Was it ever ruled out as a drug deal gone bad or money was owed.....

So sad for the family not knowing.

Couldn't even imagine.

I do hope it's found out what happened.

biscuits22 · 06-12-2019 1:35am

Peter Flynt wrote: »

The search for Trevor Deely in Chapelizod a couple of years back tells me that the Gardai (and probably Trevor's family) do not believe he accidentally fell into the canal and ended up at sea and it seems they are more likely to believe that Trevor did become a victim of criminality.

https://twitter.com/padraig_reilly/status/1071749907927711744

this twitter post by Padraig O'Reilly last year would suggest that as well

Day Lewin · 06-12-2019 1:51am

Folks, if you want your theories to sound convincing, just please read up on the difference between a canal and a river.

The Dodder in spate surges down to the Liffey and thence into Dublin Bay.

Fall into the canal at Percy Place and you'll be bobbing against the lock gates. A canal is essentially a series of long narrow ponds, and the Grand Canal is closed to traffic in winter - no gates opened.

It's a detail, but a revealing one. Fit the facts please!

Peter Flynt · 06-12-2019 1:52am

There is evidence that Deely's movements were being watched by at least 2 or more people as he left Buck Whaley's to go to BoI around the corner.
There is also evidence that he wasn't aware that he seemed in danger as he did not seem perturbed in any way during his conversation with his work colleague in the BoI.
I always believe that he felt he was being followed as he seemed to turn around in that last video of him on Haddington Road.

After that everything else is just speculation to the general public.

Raconteuse · 06-12-2019 2:03am

Does anyone know if his colleague on the night shift said that Trevor mentioned the man coming right up and talking to him while he was opening the staff gate?

KWAG2019 · 06-12-2019 2:05am

There are reasons a single male would be in one spot for that long that would have nothing to do with whether TD came along or not.

In Ireland in 2000 premeditated murder and disposal of a body belongs to paramilitarism. There was a ceasefire since 1998 and there is no known reason that TD would be targeted. To my mind it’s a matter of looking at the simplest answer rather than imagining exotic possibilities.

There are a few very obvious possibilities. TD may have wished to disappear and done so. He may have entered water and his body swept out to sea. He may have had a violent altercation, died as a result and because of where he died and in whose company he died his body was disposed of. He may have been knocked down and his body disposed of.

I think there was a violent confrontation. His body was disposed of because the person involved had reason to fear Garda involvement much more than most. It threatened him particularly. There is something about this person that made them deeply frightened of the consequences of Garda involvement. It’s an unusual aspect of the case. Violent late night confrontations that end in death happen but can sometimes be manslaughter rather than murder. There was a huge risk to this person that prompted such a frightened response. It’s very odd.

20Wheel · 06-12-2019 2:08am

Day Lewin wrote: »

Folks, if you want your theories to sound convincing, just please read up on the difference between a canal and a river.

The Dodder in spate surges down to the Liffey and thence into Dublin Bay.

Fall into the canal at Percy Place and you'll be bobbing against the lock gates. A canal is essentially a series of long narrow ponds, and the Grand Canal is closed to traffic in winter - no gates opened.

It's a detail, but a revealing one. Fit the facts please!

https://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/british/canal

1. An artificial river.

pburns · 06-12-2019 2:26am

Mmm I remember being caught short one night around the little Mount Street Crescent bridge. I had the bright idea to jump down the bank for a quick pee. Never forget there was this guy in the back of a taxi across the street, I could see the glow of his fag who looked to be watching.

My friends had gone on ahead, I got out of there pretty sharpish I tell you...

TCM · 06-12-2019 3:32am

pburns wrote:

Mmm I remember being caught short one night around the little Mount Street Crescent bridge. I had the bright idea to jump down the bank for a quick pee. Never forget there was this guy in the back of a taxi across the street, I could see the glow of his fag who looked to be watching.

Nonsense.

Fr Tod Umptious · 06-12-2019 8:40am

Raconteuse wrote: »

Does anyone know if his colleague on the night shift said that Trevor mentioned the man coming right up and talking to him while he was opening the staff gate?

The colleague has said that Trevor did not mention him.

Fr Tod Umptious · 06-12-2019 8:43am

punisher5112 wrote: »

Was it ever ruled out as a drug deal gone bad or money was owed.....

So sad for the family not knowing.

Couldn't even imagine.

I do hope it's found out what happened.

This sort of talk got the last thread closed.

Fr Tod Umptious · 06-12-2019 8:47am

Peter Flynt wrote: »

There is evidence that Deely's movements were being watched by at least 2 or more people as he left Buck Whaley's to go to BoI around the corner.
There is also evidence that he wasn't aware that he seemed in danger as he did not seem perturbed in any way during his conversation with his work colleague in the BoI.
I always believe that he felt he was being followed as he seemed to turn around in that last video of him on Haddington Road.

After that everything else is just speculation to the general public.

There is no evidence for any of that.

The only thing remotely close to Trevor's "movements being watched" is that the Gardai think that the guy outside BOI may be the same guy that followed him down Haddington Rd.

Fr Tod Umptious · 06-12-2019 8:54am

Pheonix10 wrote: »

Very strange be went to Alaska alone the week before. The girl he met was never contacted? Odd.

Something not right with that.

This is why people should read the Irish Times series on Trevor's disappearance to give them a grounding in some facts before they post.

The girl in Alaska was contacted, in fact two Gardai went out there at some point to follow any possible leads.

reg114 · 06-12-2019 8:58am

I have always made the point that if you are walking down the canal on Mespil road from Leeson st and are trying to get to get to Sandymount where Trevor was living at the time, the quickest way to get there , especially on a stormy night is to turn right from Mespil road onto Baggot st and not continue straight down Haddington Road. To go straight down Haddington Road is to take you out of your way and add an extra 5 minutes onto your journey which at all hours on a stormy night makes little sense. I would also question why he was on the Bank side of Haddington road as opposed to the other side. His movements and last known location in my mind do not show a guy who is going straight home.

smelly sock · 06-12-2019 9:13am

reg114 wrote: »

I have always made the point that if you are walking down the canal on Mespil road from Leeson st and are trying to get to get to Sandymount where Trevor was living at the time, the quickest way to get there , especially on a stormy night is to turn right from Mespil road onto Baggot st and not continue straight down Haddington Road. To go straight down Haddington Road is to take you out of your way and add an extra 5 minutes onto your journey which at all hours on a stormy night makes little sense. I would also question why he was on the Bank side of Haddington road as opposed to the other side. His movements and last known location in my mind do not show a guy who is going straight home.

I think as hard as it may be to accept he was looking for something that is renowned within the area and met his demise this way. If this was premeditated then someome or something would have shown up in bank accounts , a friend remembering something etc.

Im not ruling out suicide btw. I have zero confidence in AGS regarding this case and a lot of others. He could eadily have made it to dublin bay from where he was.

punisher5112 · 06-12-2019 9:16am

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

This sort of talk got the last thread closed.

Honest question....

No foul intended and in no way am I being disrespectful.

As I said I'm sure the family would love to know as it's such a sad story.

Questions are asked just like yourself.

Beechwoodspark · 06-12-2019 9:26am

To me the man who could solve a lot of what was going on that night is the man hanging around the entrance of TDs office.

I still find it odd he never mentioned him to his coworker. Not even, “some auld fella is hanging around the entrance there, who is he I wonder”

DarTipp · 06-12-2019 9:27am

I'm just suspicious that this new witness has come forward with this 'new information' they have had so many opportunities to come forward before now, the Leroy Blevins take on it YT suggest there are two different guys , one guy on the phone and waiting at BOI for over 30 mins then he suddenly runs down with trevor to have a chat with him at the gate before he goes in to collect his umbrella ,

Blevins suggests this may have been to check that this was trevor, something was planned either to commit a robbery of some sort at BOI, trevor may have been coerced into doing something like this when in bucks and later on as he is followed by the second guy after 3.30 then he changes his mind and things go badly wrong and he is killed

soiseztomabel · 06-12-2019 9:39am

Pheonix10 wrote: »

Some novel there! Good thing you didn't get carried away haha.

I bet this guy has at least one manuscript in the house

Raconteuse · 06-12-2019 9:55am

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

To me the man who could solve a lot of what was going on that night is the man hanging around the entrance of TDs office.

It seems like he was involved imo.

boombang · 06-12-2019 10:21am

Omackeral wrote: »

What about the possibility of a drunk driver hitting him? Christmas party season in full swing. No taxis that night so some fool decides to drive into town. Drink driving probably not as taboo 20 years ago as it is now to some people. Bad conditions coupled with poor visibility and a drunk fella maybe walking on the road. Maybe this hypothetical driver had a passenger with them. Possible enough.

While this theory does probably need two men in the car (in order to load a body), I think it's the most plausible. I fully agree that the Leeson St area had loads of shady types and the gate footage is ominous, but death by drink driving has to be by far the most likely scenario.

odyssey06 · 06-12-2019 10:22am

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

To me the man who could solve a lot of what was going on that night is the man hanging around the entrance of TDs office.
I still find it odd he never mentioned him to his coworker. Not even, “some auld fella is hanging around the entrance there, who is he I wonder”

I think I remember reading that there was a night security guard \ guy who looked after deliveries who has passed away since.
I'm assuming he would have noticed someone unusual loitering around and mentioned it when news of Trevor's disappearance broke ... would have been interesting to hear what he would have made of the recent CCTV footage.

06-12-2019 10:24am

It’s hard to think of a reason for why the man was standing outside BOI for so long in the rain. He couldn’t have known that Trevor would be returning to work to grab an umbrella. Trevor probably didn’t even know that himself until he left the bar.

Yet I’m sure many people passed by before Trevor arrived. And the man did seem to be aware when Trevor was coming.

And he never came forward. Strange.

farmchoice · 06-12-2019 10:32am

iamstop wrote: »

With the tech we have now surely we can test the possibility of a body falling into the canal or the Dodder and see where it ends up.

Get a dummy like 'Buster' from Myth Busters. Make it same build and buoyancy as Trevor would have been. Slap a few trackers on it. Wait until there is similar weather conditions to that night and dump it into a likely entry point. The tracker will tell you if it would have made it past the locks on the canal and if it would have made it out to sea. Yeah, chances are the tides won't be the same but give it long enough to see where it gets to.

just on this, its actually much more difficult then people imagine to find bodies in rivers and other bodies of water.
where i live now we have a river and unfortunately people occasionally commit suicide by jumping in. sometimes the bodies are found and sometimes even though diving teams are in the river within 6 hours the bodies are never found. recently one search went on for 5 days with a helicopter with specialized equipment and diving team every day for 3 weeks, teams searched the river banks for months and the body was never found. the diving teams even came back the next spring and still nothing.

i'm not talking about the canal, if he went into the canal he would have been found. either the canal basin or the dodder. back then the only reason anyone would have gone near the canal basin was if the planned to jump in.
in fact it was such a run down deserted part of the city a lot of people didn't even know it was there. unlike today nobody ever went near it.

reg114 · 06-12-2019 10:43am

Just a theory to go with all the others, but the 8th of December 2000 was a Friday which was bin collection day in Ballsbridge at the time. When you walk down Haddington road you can access the canal by walking down Percy place (the back of Smyths pub), at the back of the Hiberian Insurance building there would be large industrial sized bins on wheels every bin day, is it not a possibility that such a bin could have been used as an impromptu way of disposing a body. Perhaps an altercation took place, the victim was subdued and placed hurriedly into one of these bins, several hours later on the morning of the 8th the bin was emptied into the bin lorry unbeknownst to the bin men and contents never seen again? It might explain why a body has never shown up.

DarTipp · 06-12-2019 10:50am

boombang wrote: »

While this theory does probably need two men in the car (in order to load a body), I think it's the most plausible. I fully agree that the Leeson St area had loads of shady types and the gate footage is ominous, but death by drink driving has to be by far the most likely scenario.

ya it is very and a more likely one, a taxi strike plus a really bad night weather wise and lots of Christmas parties on meaning people taking the chance to drive home etc. it cuts out the other theories including my own ones where we know that trevor was a decent lad and that he didn't or wasn't in any trouble at work or outside that we know of

06-12-2019 10:52am

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

To me the man who could solve a lot of what was going on that night is the man hanging around the entrance of TDs office.
.............

Raconteuse wrote: »

It seems like he was involved imo.

Yes, no doubt. AGS were and are very keen to identify him etc, there's literally no doubt about that.

DarTipp · 06-12-2019 10:55am

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

The colleague has said that Trevor did not mention him.

which would indicate that trevor might have known him or had met in bucks, he did look dodgy and him waiting around for over 30mins in really bad weather , and trevor did sound like someone who would report anyone or anything dodgy

yaboya1 · 06-12-2019 10:55am

tdf7187 wrote: »

They were not the type of prostitute that you'd take home to your mother, put it that way.

As opposed to the type of prostitute you would take home to your mother???

06-12-2019 10:59am

yaboya1 wrote: »

As opposed to the type of prostitute you would take home to your mother???

Ok, totally off topic. He clearly means they were rough as fook and raggedy ole bags or else obvious junkies. Like, they weren't students or hot yummie mummies out doing a few BJs to fund Christmas who spent the other 51 weeks of the year studying / "normal" lifeing.

TheW1zard · 06-12-2019 11:04am

Just a point to make about which way he went etc.
I've lived in Dublin all my life, not in town, and I still get lost finding a particular bar or shop. I've even got lost while really drunk around the canal. I regularly google map while in town

So the point I'm making is maybe he only knew the one way to get home, especially late at night in the rain.

Beechwoodspark · 06-12-2019 11:27am

DarTipp wrote: »

which would indicate that trevor might have known him or had met in bucks, he did look dodgy and him waiting around for over 30mins in really bad weather , and trevor did sound like someone who would report anyone or anything dodgy

Just a thought. Could the loitering man have been in contact with someone on leeson st who rang him once TD was heading his way?

It’s beyond coincidence that yer man takes a call then sees TD heading up Wilton place and then steps out to talk to him

Trevor Deely case - new witness

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