Cultural Impact of Gaelscoils

recedite · 12-02-2015 11:11pm

eire4 wrote: »

There may or may not be more Polish spoken in Ireland. I do not profess to know if that is or is not the case. You however provide no evidence for your claim that you have now presented as "fact" moving from what you said you "suspect" previously.

It depends on whether or not you count all the people who claim to be able to speak Irish, based on their Leaving Cert results, but don't actually speak it much, if at all.
If you only count people who are actually using an alternative language on a daily basis, outside of the school gates, then more are speaking Polish.

katydid · 12-02-2015 11:14pm

eire4 wrote: »

There may or may not be more Polish spoken in Ireland. I do not profess to know if that is or is not the case. You however provide no evidence for your claim that you have now presented as "fact" moving from what you said you "suspect" previously.

For someone who claims to love Irish you sure like to mock it.

"Let's keep it real, the Irish speaking community outside the Gaeltacht could hold their AGM in a phone box. "

I will ask again a question I asked earlier that you chose to ignore:

Are you suggesting that because Irish is an everyday language used only by a minority in Ireland that we should shut down Gaelscoileanna and stop teaching Irish in our schools?

I'm not making a "claim", just expressing an opinion. But put it this way, I've heard plenty people speaking Polish in the street and in the supermarket and in my workplace. I cant think of the last time I heard someone speaking Irish.

I never suggested for a moment that we stop teaching Irish or shut down Gaelscoileanna. Why would I? Irish is a lovely language and our heritage. But it's never going to become a language of daily use by more than a handful of people. All I'm saying is that people should be realistic about that.

eire4 · 12-02-2015 11:16pm

recedite wrote: »

It depends on whether or not you count all the people who claim to be able to speak Irish, based on their Leaving Cert results, but don't actually speak it much, if at all.
If you only count people who are actually using an alternative language on a daily basis, outside of the school gates, then more are speaking Polish.

Fair enough good link there. Hopefully over time the emerging growth of Gaelscoil will see an increase in the numbers speaking Irish on a daily basis.

catbear · 13-02-2015 2:45am

Seeing the revival started in the Belfast linan halls I'd be interested to see if Protestantism is viewed more positively in these schools.

eire4 · 13-02-2015 7:08am

katydid wrote: »

I'm not making a "claim", just expressing an opinion. But put it this way, I've heard plenty people speaking Polish in the street and in the supermarket and in my workplace. I cant think of the last time I heard someone speaking Irish.

I never suggested for a moment that we stop teaching Irish or shut down Gaelscoileanna. Why would I? Irish is a lovely language and our heritage. But it's never going to become a language of daily use by more than a handful of people. All I'm saying is that people should be realistic about that.

"Let's keep it real, the Irish speaking community outside the Gaeltacht could hold their AGM in a phone box. "

That is mocking Irish not making a claim or stating an opinion. If you wanted to state an opinion you could easily have done so but you chose to mock Irish instead.

I never suggested that you said we should stop teaching Irish or shut down Gaelscoileanna I simply asked you the question and now we have your answer you do not think we should do either of those things.

As for you last point which may or may not turn out to be correct. So what if Irish is only a language of a minority of Irish people in terms of being a medium through which they live their daily lives. That is a fact of what the current status of Irish is today. There is a definite growth in Gaelscoileanna which hopefully will continue to grow and see a greater use of Irish among a greater number of Irish people. Where eactly that will take the language time will tell.

Let me ask another question would you like to see Irish develop over time to a point where most Irish people were at least bilingial?

hoodwinked · 13-02-2015 8:56am

ezra_pound wrote: »

Alright alright calm down.

Of course gaelscoileanna favour people who speak Irish in the home. What's more they explicitly express this favour in their admissions policies.

There's nothing wrong with not speaking Irish in the home but your chances of being admitted are greater if you do because it is favoured.

just to give you my personal experience i would say the Gaelscoil my daughter is in has no such policy, instead they encourage irish speaking at home by running night classes for parents with no irish and a separate one for those who want to improve theirs, they even run ones for parents who don't speak english.

because they immerse the children in irish from the start it doesn't really matter what language the children start with they will all learn together. their enrollment reflects this view.

also as i said previously they accepted me when i had no history of irish speaking in my family never mind actually speaking it at home. and this year i know of an irish speaking family who missed out on a junior infant place as they were so over subscribed so if they were doing what you said and favouring those with irish speaking in the home, this situation wouldn't have arisen.

katydid · 13-02-2015 7:34pm

eire4 wrote: »

"Let's keep it real, the Irish speaking community outside the Gaeltacht could hold their AGM in a phone box. "

That is mocking Irish not making a claim or stating an opinion. If you wanted to state an opinion you could easily have done so but you chose to mock Irish instead.

I never suggested that you said we should stop teaching Irish or shut down Gaelscoileanna I simply asked you the question and now we have your answer you do not think we should do either of those things.

As for you last point which may or may not turn out to be correct. So what if Irish is only a language of a minority of Irish people in terms of being a medium through which they live their daily lives. That is a fact of what the current status of Irish is today. There is a definite growth in Gaelscoileanna which hopefully will continue to grow and see a greater use of Irish among a greater number of Irish people. Where eactly that will take the language time will tell.

Let me ask another question would you like to see Irish develop over time to a point where most Irish people were at least bilingial?

How on earth is that "mocking"? It was hyperbole, a joke...you need to get some perspective here.

Nothing wrong with Irish being a language of the minority in Ireland. Even better if it were a language of the majority, but that will never happen. All I'm saying is that people who talk as if gaelscoileanna are going to make a significant difference need a reality check.

eire4 · 14-02-2015 7:27am

katydid wrote: »

How on earth is that "mocking"? It was hyperbole, a joke...you need to get some perspective here.

Nothing wrong with Irish being a language of the minority in Ireland. Even better if it were a language of the majority, but that will never happen. All I'm saying is that people who talk as if gaelscoileanna are going to make a significant difference need a reality check.

"Let's keep it real, the Irish speaking community outside the Gaeltacht could hold their AGM in a phone box. "

If the above was supposed to be a joke where was a smiley face or somthing to indicate that and why start with the words " lets keep it real" and then in a condescending mocking manner you belittle the size of the Irish speaking community. At least take ownership of what you said. You want to mock Irish speakers fine go ahead thats your prerogative. But take ownership at least of what you said.

You make another sweeping statement of fact regarding what will happen in the future saying Irish will never be the language of the majority. That may indeed be the case and is certainly the case right now. But who knows in a few generations if the Gaelscoileanna continue to grow maybe we will see more then 51% of the population at least bilingual.
Obviously nobody can predict the future of our language with certainty but I ask again the below question.

Would you like to see Irish develop over time to a point where most Irish people were at least bilingual?

katydid · 14-02-2015 7:22pm

eire4 wrote: »

"Let's keep it real, the Irish speaking community outside the Gaeltacht could hold their AGM in a phone box. "

If the above was supposed to be a joke where was a smiley face or somthing to indicate that and why start with the words " lets keep it real" and then in a condescending mocking manner you belittle the size of the Irish speaking community. At least take ownership of what you said. You want to mock Irish speakers fine go ahead thats your prerogative. But take ownership at least of what you said.

You make another sweeping statement of fact regarding what will happen in the future saying Irish will never be the language of the majority. That may indeed be the case and is certainly the case right now. But who knows in a few generations if the Gaelscoileanna continue to grow maybe we will see more then 51% of the population at least bilingual.
Obviously nobody can predict the future of our language with certainty but I ask again the below question.

Would you like to see Irish develop over time to a point where most Irish people were at least bilingual?

:):):):)

Enough smiley faces for you?

I am a realist. The Irish speaking community outside the Gaeltacht is tiny and will always be small even if it expands a little. That is reality and no amount of wishful thinking is going to change it.

You can predict the future of any minority language pretty accurately by looking at patterns and precedents. Unless there is huge motivation to alter the situation, such as in Israel, the only direction a minority language struggling in a sea of a very dominant language like English goes is down. Where is Cornish?
I am a linguist, I love languages, and I love Irish, the oldest still spoken language in Europe, but love and wishing and hoping don't change things. If Irish were to be revived and if the majority of the Irish population were to become bilingual, it would have happened by now, after almost a hundred years of compulsory Irish in schools.

Whatever chance it had before the advent of modern technology and the widespread use of English in that context, it hasn't a snowball's chance in hell of developing significantly beyond its current level in this country.

Those are not sweeping statements, they are facts.

eire4 · 14-02-2015 7:41pm

katydid wrote: »

:):):):)

Enough smiley faces for you?

I am a realist. The Irish speaking community outside the Gaeltacht is tiny and will always be small even if it expands a little. That is reality and no amount of wishful thinking is going to change it.

You can predict the future of any minority language pretty accurately by looking at patterns and precedents. Unless there is huge motivation to alter the situation, such as in Israel, the only direction a minority language struggling in a sea of a very dominant language like English goes is down. Where is Cornish?
I am a linguist, I love languages, and I love Irish, the oldest still spoken language in Europe, but love and wishing and hoping don't change things. If Irish were to be revived and if the majority of the Irish population were to become bilingual, it would have happened by now, after almost a hundred years of compulsory Irish in schools.

Whatever chance it had before the advent of modern technology and the widespread use of English in that context, it hasn't a snowball's chance in hell of developing significantly beyond its current level in this country.

Those are not sweeping statements, they are facts.

All your smiley faces do now is show that you still won't take ownership of your mocking of Irish.

As for your so called facts they are indeed sweeping statements made about the future which nobody can make with any certainty. You may indeed be correct and Irish does not develop to the point where the majority can speak it fluently. But you may also be wrong only time will tell.
Talking about Irish in schools only brings up the incompetence of the Irish government for so long in that area as their idea of revival of the language was for so long to ram it down everyones throats. Hardly the kind of approach to lead to positive results for any subject. More recent governments attitudes seem to be more of the at best pay lip service but not actually do anything or care. The growing Gaelscoileanna movement may or may not make a big impact on future generations ability to speak Irish in significantly increasing numbers we will have to see. But it is a positive development.

I noticed that you claim to love Irish but could not bring yourself to answer the question:

"Would you like to see Irish develop over time to a point where most Irish people were at least bilingual?"

In any case you seem very determined to tell everyone that Irish is never going to develop and prosper as a language and that a significant number and or majority will never speak the language and seem very determined to claim that stance and opinion you have as fact.

I would have thought for someone who claims to love Irish any signs of growth such as the current Gaelscoileanna growth would be a positive thing and something to be happy about not to bash on the head. So what if the growth of Gaelscoileanna is not the panacea for the Irish language it is a positive sign for now and the future.

swampgas · 15-02-2015 6:48pm

Surely it's hardly controversial to consider Irish pretty much a dead language, or at best on life support?

eire4 wrote: »

I noticed that you claim to love Irish but could not bring yourself to answer the question:

"Would you like to see Irish develop over time to a point where most Irish people were at least bilingual?"

I think a better question for Irish people in general is "How much effort are you prepared to make to speak Irish well enough to be considered bilingual?"

I think the answer is "very little to none" for most people.

Learning Irish is never going to be useful the way other languages are useful - I'm extremely unlikely to find myself in a part of Ireland where the natives don't speak English. In fact the evidence seems to be that even in Gaeltacht areas, young people pretty much switch to English once they get above a certain age, even if they grew up in Irish speaking households.

In any case you seem very determined to tell everyone that Irish is never going to develop and prosper as a language and that a significant number and or majority will never speak the language and seem very determined to claim that stance and opinion you have as fact.

Irish, for most people, might as well be Latin or Greek in that it has very little utility, and is being learnt primarily for cultural or academic reasons. As such it's extremely unlikely to become a mainstream language again.

Iwasfrozen · 16-02-2015 12:06am

Irish will always be a language only for an interested minority for as long as the career benefits of learning a major European language outweigh the benefits of learning Irish. Gaelscoils won't change that.

dubhthach · 16-02-2015 1:02am

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Irish will always be a language only for an interested minority for as long as the career benefits of learning a major European language outweigh the benefits of learning Irish. Gaelscoils won't change that.

What career benefits would those be? For example in IT the default Lingua Franca is English. Learning a European language in such a case is worthless, time would be better of spent mastering a "proper language" such as C.

Iwasfrozen · 16-02-2015 1:21am

dubhthach wrote: »

What career benefits would those be? For example in IT the default Lingua Franca is English. Learning a European language in such a case is worthless, time would be better of spent mastering a "proper language" such as C.

I don't know about IT but I know in my office having a European language to liaise with continental clients is a plus. Obviously there are jobs that require Irish but these are few and far between. Learning a European language opens up a lot more doors than Irish would.

guitarzero · 16-02-2015 1:25am

Theres one thing its not doing and that keeping the language alive.

dubhthach · 16-02-2015 11:46am

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I don't know about IT but I know in my office having a European language to liaise with continental clients is a plus. Obviously there are jobs that require Irish but these are few and far between. Learning a European language opens up a lot more doors than Irish would.

If education is solely about economics and jobs (as oppose I don't know expanding someones horizon through exposure to knowledge and learning) as you seem to be implying than all languages other than English should be dropped from the curriculum. Our largest trading partners after all are the US followed by the UK.

Speaking English opens far more doors than any other European language, what use is French dealing with people in Eastern Europe, for example in Poland whose economy grew by over 40% between 2005 and 2013? (Let alone Sweden, Denmark or Netherlands). Heck we export about 50% more to Germany than we do to France let 4 times as many people do French in School than German.

Of course some people such as German President Joachim Gauck think that English should be made the official language of the EU.

How it works in IT industry is simple, if you want to (a) take advantage of Irish tax evasion methods, then (b) you hire native speakers from relevant countries pay for relocation costs, help with accommodation etc.

Result:

Happy customers dealing with Jack from Lyon, as oppose to Dortsider Jack with his "school French"
Happy employee's -- get to work in US multinational, good for the CV -- get to live in English speaking country good for their English.
Happy host country (that would be us) -- more income tax receipts, new and interesting colleagues, better cuisine on offer, improved gene-pool!

Gaelgangnuis · 16-02-2015 12:07pm

dubhthach wrote: »

If education is solely about economics and jobs (as oppose I don't know expanding someones horizon through exposure to knowledge and learning) as you seem to be implying than all languages other than English should be dropped from the curriculum. Our largest trading partners after all are the US followed by the UK.

Speaking English opens far more doors than any other European language, what use is French dealing with people in Eastern Europe, for example in Poland whose economy grew by over 40% between 2005 and 2013? (Let alone Sweden, Denmark or Netherlands). Heck we export about 50% more to Germany than we do to France let 4 times as many people do French in School than German.

Of course some people such as German President Joachim Gauck think that English should be made the official language of the EU.

How it works in IT industry is simple, if you want to (a) take advantage of Irish tax evasion methods, then (b) you hire native speakers from relevant countries pay for relocation costs, help with accommodation etc.

Result:
Happy customers dealing with Jack from Lyon, as oppose to Dortsider Jack with his "school French"

Happy employee's -- get to work in US multinational, good for the CV -- get to live in English speaking country good for their English.

Happy host country (that would be us) -- more income tax receipts, new and interesting colleagues, better cuisine on offer, improved gene-pool!

I recently listened to an interesting podcast on Freekanomics that discussed learning second languages, the general gist was that while learning any language is worthwhile in terms of cultural enrichment etc, in economic/earning potential terms, you're better off learning a minority language because of the point above. Learn a major language and you're competing with a large pool of highly qualified native speakers.

Learn a minority language and there will be a much smaller pool of qualified native speakers and more opportunities (relatively) for learners to find a niche in which to find employment.
Apparently learners of a minority language can enjoy a greater income benefit from learning that language than learners of a major language.

Iwasfrozen · 16-02-2015 2:28pm

dubhthach wrote: »

If education is solely about economics and jobs (as oppose I don't know expanding someones horizon through exposure to knowledge and learning) as you seem to be implying than all languages other than English should be dropped from the curriculum. Our largest trading partners after all are the US followed by the UK.

Speaking English opens far more doors than any other European language, what use is French dealing with people in Eastern Europe, for example in Poland whose economy grew by over 40% between 2005 and 2013? (Let alone Sweden, Denmark or Netherlands). Heck we export about 50% more to Germany than we do to France let 4 times as many people do French in School than German.

Of course some people such as German President Joachim Gauck think that English should be made the official language of the EU.

How it works in IT industry is simple, if you want to (a) take advantage of Irish tax evasion methods, then (b) you hire native speakers from relevant countries pay for relocation costs, help with accommodation etc.

Result:
Happy customers dealing with Jack from Lyon, as oppose to Dortsider Jack with his "school French"

Happy employee's -- get to work in US multinational, good for the CV -- get to live in English speaking country good for their English.

Happy host country (that would be us) -- more income tax receipts, new and interesting colleagues, better cuisine on offer, improved gene-pool!

I didn't say education is solely about economics and jobs. Nor did I say speaking French is more valuable than speaking English. What I did say is that Irish will always be a minority language for as long as the career benefits of learning a major European language outweigh the benefits of learning Irish. Outside the public sector Irish is almost totally non existent.

You seem to be implying MNC's only look for native speaking people when loking for speakers of a foreign language. In my experience working for an MNC this is not the case, fluency and the ability to demonstrate fluency are required but being a native speaker from a foreign country is not.

catbear · 16-02-2015 3:41pm

Gaelgangnuis wrote: »

I recently listened to an interesting podcast on Freekanomics that discussed learning second languages, the general gist was that while learning any language is worthwhile in terms of cultural enrichment etc, in economic/earning potential terms, you're better off learning a minority language because of the point above. Learn a major language and you're competing with a large pool of highly qualified native speakers.

Learn a minority language and there will be a much smaller pool of qualified native speakers and more opportunities (relatively) for learners to find a niche in which to find employment.
Apparently learners of a minority language can enjoy a greater income benefit from learning that language than learners of a major language.

A very good and well explained point but I can't see its relevance as irish is mostly supported by an economy that operates almost entirely in english. It's like that old piece of Granny's furniture that no one likes but no one wants to ditch in case someone is offended.

dubhthach · 16-02-2015 3:45pm

Spending the time currently spent on French (or in minority cases on German) on improving english language literacy (not Macbeth or Paradise Lost -- both of which I enjoyed for cultural reasons) economically outweighs the case for money spent on teaching French/German in the school system.

27,000 students did French last year in the Leaving Cert, how many are fluent? Probably less than 1% (heck I'd go for 0.1%), the average secondary school student will only achieve about 400-500 hours of language contact with French (or German) during their schooling, it's generally believe that you need at least 5,000 hours of language contact for fluency. As the Irish system "teaches to the exam" I'd imagine even those 500 hours aren't that great.

What percentage of Irish Leaving Cert students over the last 15 years are working in a job that requires them to use the continental language they learnt in school (be it French, German or even smaller number of cases Spanish)? You're probably looking at less than 1% (or if we are been kind low single digits).

Ergo been forced to learn a continental language during secondary school (along with such things as requiring one for entering into non-humanities degrees in University) provides no benefits to the vast majority of Irish students from an economical or career point of view.
Sure it probably provides some cultural benefits, but I doubt that they are using Engrenages (Spiral), Maison Close or Les Particules élémentaires (Atomised) as a teaching aid in French class.

As for our tax-dodging friends in American Multinational sector, well sure they'll hire you if ye have fluency and there's no other candidate, however why would they hire an Irish candidate over a native speaker of French who is equally skilled in all the other requirements for a role that involves spending 6-8 hours a day dealing with French people in France? Unless of course that Irish person had just after coming back home from living several years in a Francophone country.

Take a stroll down Barrow street and check out the French (or German) departments managing sales/customer support/accounts of a certain large IT Multinational, how many of those staff members sat the Leaving Cert I wonder.

After all said MNC's often tout the fact that one of reason's they like Dublin is the fact that due to clustering effect going on here that they've no problem getting people to relocate from the continent. (that and we allow them route their profits nice and cleanly to the holding account in Bermuda)

catbear · 16-02-2015 3:52pm

The best way to learn a language is immersion, although I do know a savant who learns new languages fluently over the internet for kicks. I believe he's fully conversant in 8-9 languages.

pwurple · 16-02-2015 3:54pm

ezra_pound wrote: »

If you're so concerned about maths then maybe you should bring your kids to the Gael Scoil!

Well, along with a good education, I'm also concerned with not having a bunch of mini-racists become friends for my children...

If parents on the open day expressly tells me their reason for going to the gaelscoil is to avoid foreigners, it's a pretty good indicator of what kind of bull is going to emit from their offspring.

catbear · 16-02-2015 4:22pm

pwurple wrote: »

Well, along with a good education, I'm also concerned with not having a bunch of mini-racists become friends for my children...

If parents on the open day expressly tells me their reason for going to the gaelscoil is to avoid foreigners, it's a pretty good indicator of what kind of bull is going to emit from their offspring.

I've got to agree with that, i've heard that anti-foreigner reason enough times from parents to believe that these schools will the nuclei for future white trash slums.

dubhthach · 16-02-2015 4:50pm

catbear wrote: »

I've got to agree with that, i've heard that anti-foreigner reason enough times from parents to believe that these schools will the nuclei for future white trash slums.

Jaysuz ye Bearloirí need to get your story together, first we are told that people wanting to have their children educated through the medium of Irish are elitist, now we hear they are white thrash, living in slums. Sounds like a return to the narrative of a only peasants speak Irish.

It's funny though how some of recent research has shown that children of foreign nationals (or where at least one parent were born abroad) do better at Irish after the age of 7 than their Irish peer group in Bearloirí schools. No doubt as they don't have Bearloirí parents telling them "it's a waste of time, it's a dead language, only peasants/white thrash speak it, Peig!!!!".

Dr Bob · 16-02-2015 5:01pm

dubhthach wrote: »

,,, only peasants/white thrash speak it, Peig!!!!".

I feel it only fair to point out that if you'd attended an English speaking school you would know that there's a difference between the verb 'thrash'(moving in a violent and unpredictable way)
..and the noun I think you meant 'trash'(rubbish /refuse/ a person of low morals).

dubhthach · 16-02-2015 5:14pm

Dr Bob wrote: »

I feel it only fair to point out that if you'd attended an English speaking school you would know that there's a difference between the verb 'thrash'(moving in a violent and unpredictable way)
..and the noun I think you meant 'trash'(rubbish /refuse/ a person of low morals).

Nawh was listening to Slayer's magnus opus "Reign in Blood" there, Thrash Metal on the brain can do that to you

I should point out I attended both Irish and English medium schools, after all there didn't exist a Gaelcholáiste in Galway City (or county) until circa 1994.

catbear · 16-02-2015 8:39pm

Children of immigrants have more incentive to work harder. The extra % for for exams through Irish is another extra incentive.

A Malay Chinese told me how when they were young the majority Malay kids were given extra % to help them catch up with Chinese Malay kids. This incentivised chinese Malay kids to study harder while Malay kids felt they didn't have to study as hard with the free %. The gap actually widened.

ezra_pound · 16-02-2015 9:11pm

pwurple wrote: »

Well, along with a good education, I'm also concerned with not having a bunch of mini-racists become friends for my children...

If parents on the open day expressly tells me their reason for going to the gaelscoil is to avoid foreigners, it's a pretty good indicator of what kind of bull is going to emit from their offspring.

I would agree with you entirely. I would never send my kids to school with the children of racists. However, from my personal experience this is not a factor in why parents send their children to our local gaelscoil.

dubhthach · 16-02-2015 9:41pm

catbear wrote: »

Children of immigrants have more incentive to work harder. The extra % for for exams through Irish is another extra incentive.

A Malay Chinese told me how when they were young the majority Malay kids were given extra % to help them catch up with Chinese Malay kids. This incentivised chinese Malay kids to study harder while Malay kids felt they didn't have to study as hard with the free %. The gap actually widened.

Children of migrants unless they attend a Gaelcholáiste (and a Gaelscoil before that) aren't gonna get opportunity to sit the Leaving Cert through Irish (so none of those extra mythical points). In general "new Irish" have more positive view of the language as they see it as part of the historical/cultural framework of the country that they now call home. So for example I've seen interviews on tv with guys from Nigeria who are doing Irish classes in their local school as they believe (a) it helps them integrate into framework of Irish society (b) to set an example to their children

As for Points race, simple solution abolition the Leaving Cert. Anyways the system works as following:

Bonus marks at the rate of 10 per cent of the marks obtained will be given to a candidate who obtains less than 75 per cent of the total marks in the case of the following subjects:- Latin, Greek, Classical Studies, Hebrew Studies, History, Geography, Physics, Chemistry, Physics and Chemistry, Biology, Science, Business, Economics, Economic History, Agricultural Science, Agricultural Economics, Home Economics, Music, Business Studies, History and Appreciation of Art, Civic, Social and Political Education, Religious Education, Arabic, LCVP Link Modules - written component only.

Bonus marks at the rate of 5 per cent will be given to a candidate who obtains less than 75 per cent of the total marks in the case of the following subjects:- French, German, Italian, Spanish, Mathematics, Applied Mathematics, Accounting, Engineering, Construction Studies, Materials Technology (Wood), Metalwork, Junior Certificate Technology, Leaving Certificate Technology, Typewriting, Russian and Japanese.

Above 75 per cent the bonus will be subjected to a uniform reduction until the candidate who scores 100 per cent gets no bonus.

From what I recall of article about this over 50% of students who do the Leaving in Irish get no grade increases, of course if you got 71% in your Maths exam (B3 -- 75 points) the 5% increase would only bring you up to 74.55% in which case you are still a B3 -- 75 points.

If for exam you get 6 A2 in the Leaving you probably won't see any grade increase at all.

The excuse for it is due to lack of resources for those sitting the exam in Irish, would be better off printing proper textbooks for the curriculum/exam notes (you won't find exam notes/past papers with sample answers published in Irish).

Again though the simple solution is abolish the Leaving Cert (as well as the Junior Cert) and adapt a more modern education system such as what they have in the Netherlands when it comes to University matriculation.

Crann na Beatha · 17-02-2015 12:22am

This post has been deleted.

catbear · 17-02-2015 1:48am

Phoenix wrote: »

I find it interesting that there a vast numbers of people who don't see the connection of the Irish language with the Irish culture and it's prevailing influence oh how English language is used and spoken even today.

Culture is a societal phenomena whereas Irish in education was a political project.

recedite · 17-02-2015 11:19am

dubhthach wrote: »

Children of migrants unless they attend a Gaelcholáiste (and a Gaelscoil before that) aren't gonna get opportunity to sit the Leaving Cert through Irish (so none of those extra mythical points). In general "new Irish" have more positive view of the language as they see it as part of the historical/cultural framework of the country that they now call home. So for example I've seen interviews on tv with guys from Nigeria who are doing Irish classes in their local school as they believe (a) it helps them integrate into framework of Irish society (b) to set an example to their children.

Well, I also heard of a chinese guy who learned basic Irish before he came here, and then was surprised to discover that he couldn't use it to communicate with the general population. Just because foreigners may have a somewhat "misguided" view of the situation, it does not mean they should be applauded for that.

Also I think you are picking up the previous thing re the migrant kids and the Leaving Cert points wrong. The other poster pointed out that as the migrant kids cannot claim to have any "spoken Irish" in the home, they will be last on the waiting list for the Gaelscoil. And therefore will not get access to the bonus points reserved for Gaelgeoirs in the Leaving Cert.
But this will not necessarily cause them to do less well in the exams, because they compensate by having a better work ethic.
I have noticed this particularly with Polish kids. I'm guessing that not only are they smarter and more motivated than the average Irish kid, but they are probably smarter than the average kid in Poland, which I would put down to the classic "brain drain" effect. Something we ourselves have suffered from for so long. Poland's loss is Ireland's gain.

Iwasfrozen · 17-02-2015 11:55am

recedite wrote: »

Well, I also heard of a chinese guy who learned basic Irish before he came here, and then was surprised to discover that he couldn't use it to communicate with the general population. Just because foreigners may have a somewhat "misguided" view of the situation, it does not mean they should be applauded for that. .

That was a short film on tg4.

recedite · 17-02-2015 12:17pm

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

That was a short film on tg4.

That may be so, but if Nigerians are trying to get their kids to learn Irish as a means to protect themselves from xenophobia, I don't see that as something we should be proud of.

Iwasfrozen · 17-02-2015 12:24pm

recedite wrote: »

That may be so, but if Nigerians are trying to get their kids to learn Irish as a means to protect themselves from xenophobia, I don't see that as something we should be proud of.

Totally agree, xenophobia in gaelscoils is a very serious propaganda threat to the Irish language movement which Irish enthusiasts often ignore to their own detriment.

Gaelgangnuis · 17-02-2015 1:01pm

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Totally agree, xenophobia in gaelscoils is a very serious propaganda threat to the Irish language movement which Irish enthusiasts often ignore to their own detriment.

Xenophobia in Gaelscoils is something that those who like to discredit the Irish language movement often like to point to despite not having a single shred of evidence to support the claim.

Iwasfrozen · 17-02-2015 1:32pm

Gaelgangnuis wrote: »

Xenophobia in Gaelscoils is something that those who like to discredit the Irish language movement often like to point to despite not having a single shred of evidence to support the claim.

What evidence do you want? A survey? People will lie so as not to appear bigoted.

Sometimes the nature of the problem makes gathering conclusive evidence troublesome, that doesn't mean the problem doesn't exist.

Gaelgangnuis · 17-02-2015 1:39pm

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

What evidence do you want?

Anything at all really, the problem with this claim is that although it is often made by those who have a problem with Irish, no evidence or any kind have ever been put forward to support it. The most i'v ever seen is 'someone told me one time that this was their motivation'.
Maybe the story is true, though it's doubtful to be honest. But even if it is, it shows no more then the opinion of a few individuals, it can hardily be said to represent parents of Gaelscoil children as a whole and it says nothing about the schools themselves.

Sometimes the nature of the problem makes gathering conclusive evidence troublesome, that doesn't mean the problem doesn't exist.

True, but then again its not fair to spread baseless malicious rumors. Generally I feel that if you're going to make the claim it should be based on something, and certainly on more than your own personal prejudices.

dubhthach · 17-02-2015 1:40pm

recedite wrote: »

Well, I also heard of a chinese guy who learned basic Irish before he came here, and then was surprised to discover that he couldn't use it to communicate with the general population. Just because foreigners may have a somewhat "misguided" view of the situation, it does not mean they should be applauded for that.

Also I think you are picking up the previous thing re the migrant kids and the Leaving Cert points wrong. The other poster pointed out that as the migrant kids cannot claim to have any "spoken Irish" in the home, they will be last on the waiting list for the Gaelscoil. And therefore will not get access to the bonus points reserved for Gaelgeoirs in the Leaving Cert.
But this will not necessarily cause them to do less well in the exams, because they compensate by having a better work ethic.
I have noticed this particularly with Polish kids. I'm guessing that not only are they smarter and more motivated than the average Irish kid, but they are probably smarter than the average kid in Poland, which I would put down to the classic "brain drain" effect. Something we ourselves have suffered from for so long. Poland's loss is Ireland's gain.

A piece of fiction (Yu Ming is ainm dom) shouldn't be confused for fact, wars have started on less

There are no bonus points reserved for Gaelgeoir's that just Bearloirí spin. There are points for those who sit the exam in Irish, given the lack of resources available, again 50%+ of those who sit exams in Irish see no grade increases, mainly as you have to do bad in your exams to see any benefit (10% of grade you received for scores under 75%). Of course the solution to that is abolish the points race that is the Leaving Cert while at the time provide actual texts/materials that cover the curriculum through the medium of Irish.

It shouldn't be surprised that even in Gaeltacht secondary schools and Gaelcholáistí (in the Galltacht), that students sit their exams through english by and large (can you get grind schools through medium of Irish for Leaving Cert Biology?)

The vast majority of Irish people sending children to Gaelscoileanna in Dublin are Bearloirí so your point about Migrants been on bottom of list is a red herring, they are in exact same position linguistically as Bearloirí Irish parents, if anything they actually probably have an advantage linguistically speaking as they tend to have exposure to at least 2 languages anyways (english and their home language).

dubhthach · 17-02-2015 1:41pm

recedite wrote: »

That may be so, but if Nigerians are trying to get their kids to learn Irish as a means to protect themselves from xenophobia, I don't see that as something we should be proud of.

Or it could the answer the dude actually gave which was (I'm paraphrasing from memory)

"My children are Irish, the Irish language is part of their cultural heritage, it's important that I respect that"

dubhthach · 17-02-2015 1:42pm

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

What evidence do you want? A survey? People will lie so as not to appear bigoted.

Sometimes the nature of the problem makes gathering conclusive evidence troublesome, that doesn't mean the problem doesn't exist.

So hearsay in other words, next ye be spreading a "Blood libel", you do know that as a citizen if you have evidence of illegality it's your responsibility to report it.

MayoAreMagic · 17-02-2015 2:16pm

eire4 wrote: »

A legitimate point you make if you have any facts rather then conjecture to back up the suggestion your making that taking time to learn Irish hurts students in Gaelscoil and their ability to do well in subjetcs Maths or other EU languages.

Well it is straightforward enough. You have x amount of time to spend at subjects. If you have to learn them through another medium then you have to spend a large period of that time available, learning that medium first, which in turn reduces the time available to learn the subject you actually want to use. If you spent the entire time learning the subject in question then it stands to reason you would be better at it. It is like taking a detour on a journey and claiming it was faster than going direct. In other words physically impossible. Remove the fact that it is irish from the equation for a second. Say it is learn maths through progressive dance. Do you think that is going to be as effective as just learning maths? Of course not, and if it is we should really be looking to improve our maths courses, not looking to bring in more progressive dance!

The example of the young scientists exhibition was given. My answer to that is; What value did the irish add to the science project? The honest answer is none. Then imagine how well they could have done if they hadn't had to spend so much of their time learning irish first?

Gaelgangnuis · 17-02-2015 2:21pm

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Well it is straightforward enough. You have x amount of time to spend at subjects. If you have to learn them through another medium then you have to spend a large period of that time available, learning that medium first, which in turn reduces the time available to learn the subject you actually want to use. If you spent the entire time learning the subject in question then it stands to reason you would be better at it. It is like taking a detour on a journey and claiming it was faster than going direct. In other words physically impossible. Remove the fact that it is irish from the equation for a second. Say it is learn maths through progressive dance. Do you think that is going to be as effective as just learning maths? Of course not, and if it is we should really be looking to improve our maths courses, not looking to bring in more progressive dance!

The example of the young scientists exhibition was given. My answer to that is; What value did the irish add to the science project? The honest answer is none. Then imagine how well they could have done if they hadn't had to spend so much of their time learning irish first?

The results that these schools get tell a different story. Schools that teach through second language immersion operate in many countries quite successfully. While it may seem to you that learning through a second language should negatively impact students, a large body of research on this type of education internationally and actual results say otherwise.

Iwasfrozen · 17-02-2015 2:56pm

Gaelgangnuis wrote: »

Anything at all really, the problem with this claim is that although it is often made by those who have a problem with Irish, no evidence or any kind have ever been put forward to support it. The most i'v ever seen is 'someone told me one time that this was their motivation'.
Maybe the story is true, though it's doubtful to be honest. But even if it is, it shows no more then the opinion of a few individuals, it can hardily be said to represent parents of Gaelscoil children as a whole and it says nothing about the schools themselves.

True, but then again its not fair to spread baseless malicious rumors. Generally I feel that if you're going to make the claim it should be based on something, and certainly on more than your own personal prejudices.

We have heard many first hand accounts of parents who have experienced xenophobia in gaelscoils both from other parents and teachers. Is this conclusive evidence? Or course not but hearsay comes from somewhere. It does warrant caution, both by parents thinking of sending their children to gaelscoils and the leaders of the gaelscoils themselves.

Unfortunately it's in the principal's interest to turn a blind eye to these issues so I doubt anything will be done and the reputation of gaelscoils will continue to degrade.

dubhthach wrote: »

So hearsay in other words, next ye be spreading a "Blood libel", you do know that as a citizen if you have evidence of illegality it's your responsibility to report it.

Yes.

Gaelgangnuis · 17-02-2015 3:17pm

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

We have heard many first hand accounts of parents who have experienced xenophobia in gaelscoils both from other parents and teachers.

Have we? I haven't, not once have I ever heard of a report of xenophobia from a teacher in a gaelscoil. As for those from parents, any I have heard have been anecdotal in nature, ie 'someone told me once that they heard someone say...' etc.

I have no doubt that some parents of kids in gaelscoileanna are xenophobic, the same can be said for any school and I have seen nothing to suggest that it is a problem that is specific to gaelscoileanna or in any way more pronounced when it comes to Irish medium schools than other schools.

That some with a problem with the Irish language like to talk up supposed xenophobia in Gaelscoileanna, without ever backing up their claims, does not mean that there is a more pronounced problem in Gaelscoileanna than elsewhere.

Grudaire · 17-02-2015 4:50pm

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

We have heard many first hand accounts of parents who have experienced xenophobia in gaelscoils both from other parents and teachers. Is this conclusive evidence? Or course not but hearsay comes from somewhere. It does warrant caution, both by parents thinking of sending their children to gaelscoils and the leaders of the gaelscoils themselves.

Ah come on now. 'Many first hand accounts' - I've heard no accounts about Gaelscoileanna, and a small few from English medium schools..

It would be biased of me to make any judgement based on this..
I think it's reasonable to suggest that Iwasfrozen h has a slight bias based on posts though.

MayoAreMagic · 17-02-2015 5:08pm

Gaelgangnuis wrote: »

The results that these schools get tell a different story. Schools that teach through second language immersion operate in many countries quite successfully. While it may seem to you that learning through a second language should negatively impact students, a large body of research on this type of education internationally and actual results say otherwise.

They do tell a story but not the one you are claiming. The bottom line is this, it is physically impossible to go from point A to point B more quickly by going via point X. No amount of studies can change that. If you can go via point X in the same timescale, then what it says is there is room to improve in going from A to B - not that point X is the way forward.

Gaelgangnuis · 17-02-2015 5:31pm

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

They do tell a story but not the one you are claiming. The bottom line is this, it is physically impossible to go from point A to point B more quickly by going via point X. No amount of studies can change that. If you can go via point X in the same timescale, then what it says is there is room to improve in going from A to B - not that point X is the way forward.

We are talking about educational outcomes, something that there has been a considerable amount of research into. Not the best way to take on a journey from one place to another.

MayoAreMagic · 17-02-2015 5:42pm

Gaelgangnuis wrote: »

We are talking about educational outcomes, something that there has been a considerable amount of research into. Not the best way to take on a journey from one place to another.

But the same concept applies. All things being equal, the more time you spend learning a subject you need/heading in the direction you need to go, the sooner you will get there. If you decide to take a detour into a totally different subject/town, it will take you longer to get where you are going. If you only have a certain amount of time i.e. a school day, then you will never get as far going through the second subject/town as you would going direct. There has been a fair bit of study on that fact too.

recedite · 17-02-2015 7:01pm

dubhthach wrote: »

There are no bonus points reserved for Gaelgeoir's that just Bearloirí spin. There are points for those who sit the exam in Irish, given the lack of resources available, again 50%+ of those who sit exams in Irish see no grade increases, mainly as you have to do bad in your exams to see any benefit (10% of grade you received for scores under 75%).

WTF? are you trying to say that "those who sit the exam through Irish" and "Gaelgeoir's" are two different sets of people? Of course the bonus points are for Gaelgeoirs.

I wouldn't call getting a 75% result in a higher level paper "doing bad".
A 70% result being boosted to 77% is a very nice present indeed.

And BTW, above 75 per cent the bonus will be subjected to a uniform reduction until the candidate who scores 100 per cent gets no bonus.
So a even a 99% result is boosted. But nobody gets boosted to 110% because that would be plain stupid, as well as unjust.

"the lack of resources" in Gaelscoileanna is not apparent to the outside observer. Are you thinking of Deis schools, maybe?

Cultural Impact of Gaelscoils

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