Where are the conservatives in Ireland?

James Brown · 09-05-2019 3:47pm

Belfast wrote: »

indeed
the Irish tend to be "a la carte conservatives"

You have to differentiate between religious belief, following those rules and social/political choices.

You might vote for same sex civil rights and be 'religious' or you might choose to vote against it based on your religion or social/political choices.
Religion sets rules, politics is a choice for most not rared in a [insert party] family, then it's a kind of religion I suppose.
A good example of the skewed mix would be many right wingers feigning Christianity while looking to close borders and cut minimum wage, monies to the poor etc. and contrast that to the traditionally non religious socialist leaners looking for fairness and equality.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 09-05-2019 5:05pm

Belfast wrote: »

indeed
the Irish tend to be "a la carte conservatives"

I've never been a fan of "a la carte" anything - it implies that you should let someone else establish your view point on everything without any personal thought whatsoever.

Seriously - what the **** is the point of living for and dying for freedom and to live in a free country if someone then goes and hands over their freedom of though to either a religion or a political party?

Thrashssacre · 10-05-2019 2:21am

There is a gap in the Irish political scene for a party slightly further along the right wing spectrum to renua. If you look at the rest of Europe far right party’s tend to get around 10% of the vote or more in cases where the parties are a bit more established an politically savvy like in Italy. so to think that base just doesn’t exist in Ireland would be fairly foolish. I think eventually the national party may even fill that gap if they gain more members who are willing to be a voice for the party apart from Justin Barratt. Their stuff on YouTube is well edited and comes across very clean. Both the national party and irexit party seem to be doing a lot better online in the last 2 months or so but that may not be much of an indication of support as the numbers of subscribers aren’t exactly huge. There was a video a while back that got 150k views on one of their channels but it has since been removed, but clearly they are gaining some ground on there.

L1011 · 10-05-2019 7:18am

Good video editing is more of a sign of funding than support. The National Party is unlikely to exceed Renuas peak polling figures ever - and Renua will never return there either.

Thrashssacre · 10-05-2019 7:26am

L1011 wrote: »

Good video editing is more of a sign of funding than support. The National Party is unlikely to exceed Renuas peak polling figures ever - and Renua will never return there either.

Not particularly just having a couple of people onboard who are tech savvy I mean there’s plenty of YouTube content creators who are fairly good at editing, and I mean I don’t know you may be right but renua made a lot of mistakes and came from a split in a party which wasn’t exactly liked to begin with. If recent trends in Europe teach us anything is that theres a market for this thing, if a party can keep up a reasonable enough image and not make a fool of themselves in the media it can be tapped into.

Anesthetize · 10-05-2019 7:31am

pablojml wrote: »

I'm not very familiar with the political parties of Ireland, and would like to ask where or which are the conservative parties in Ireland, not the fake ones, I mean the real conservatives who are for core family values, there are only two genders, a family is a man a woman and children, homosexuality is not a normal lifestyle and can be overcome (not hating it but not promoting it), safe borders, controlled immigration and not massive influx of ilegal immigration, parents are the main educators of children not schools, abortion means killing a baby, rights come from God and not men, not being driven by emotios but by logic, etc etc. Are they extinct? I am finding it really hard to find a political party with such great values. Are there any groups that anyone can join? Regards to all.

I feel perfectly ok now about being liberal-leaning.

Thanks

James Brown · 10-05-2019 1:56pm

Thrashssacre wrote: »

There is a gap in the Irish political scene for a party slightly further along the right wing spectrum to renua. If you look at the rest of Europe far right party’s tend to get around 10% of the vote or more in cases where the parties are a bit more established an politically savvy like in Italy. so to think that base just doesn’t exist in Ireland would be fairly foolish. I think eventually the national party may even fill that gap if they gain more members who are willing to be a voice for the party apart from Justin Barratt. Their stuff on YouTube is well edited and comes across very clean. Both the national party and irexit party seem to be doing a lot better online in the last 2 months or so but that may not be much of an indication of support as the numbers of subscribers aren’t exactly huge. There was a video a while back that got 150k views on one of their channels but it has since been removed, but clearly they are gaining some ground on there.

I don't think there is. You may have some opportunists like Casey but I can't see a party gaining traction. We had a Nazi party at one point, (not FG/blueshirts). I recall seeing the occasional poster on the odd lamppost but thankfully nothing came of it. I forget what they were called but they used the swastika. I forget which minority was invading Ireland at the time. Maybe the Turks? I recall a Lennihan shouting the infamous 'kebab' line.

An honest and fair center right, (or left for that matter) would do well.

Eric Cartman · 10-05-2019 3:10pm

Matt Barrett wrote: »

I don't think there is. You may have some opportunists like Casey but I can't see a party gaining traction. We had a Nazi party at one point, (not FG/blueshirts). I recall seeing the occasional poster on the odd lamppost but thankfully nothing came of it. I forget what they were called but they used the swastika. I forget which minority was invading Ireland at the time. Maybe the Turks? I recall a Lennihan shouting the infamous 'kebab' line.

An honest and fair center right, (or left for that matter) would do well.

I think a PD’s/UKIP style party with a strong whip system telling candidates to shut their mouth on social issues like abortion and SSM would do well, its the downfall of most of these.

Theres definitely space for a party thats tough on crime and immigration with a lower taxes and lower spending but completely avoids iona dogma or having an opinion on abortion. Careful candidate selection and filtering of membership to keep out the likes of the sherlock family and a full SIPO registration and clear donor rules needed.

James Brown · 10-05-2019 4:13pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

I think a PD’s/UKIP style party with a strong whip system telling candidates to shut their mouth on social issues like abortion and SSM would do well, its the downfall of most of these.

Theres definitely space for a party thats tough on crime and immigration with a lower taxes and lower spending but completely avoids iona dogma or having an opinion on abortion. Careful candidate selection and filtering of membership to keep out the likes of the sherlock family and a full SIPO registration and clear donor rules needed.

It would be tough to pull off. It's a tight list if you're avoiding the very groupings breed these people. IMO anyone like that is usually equal opportunities, immigrants bad, women know your place, poor all pretending or lazy.

Loafing Oaf · 10-05-2019 4:21pm

Thrashssacre wrote: »

There is a gap in the Irish political scene for a party slightly further along the right wing spectrum to renua. If you look at the rest of Europe far right party’s tend to get around 10% of the vote or more in cases where the parties are a bit more established an politically savvy like in Italy. so to think that base just doesn’t exist in Ireland would be fairly foolish. I think eventually the national party may even fill that gap if they gain more members who are willing to be a voice for the party apart from Justin Barratt. Their stuff on YouTube is well edited and comes across very clean. Both the national party and irexit party seem to be doing a lot better online in the last 2 months or so but that may not be much of an indication of support as the numbers of subscribers aren’t exactly huge. There was a video a while back that got 150k views on one of their channels but it has since been removed, but clearly they are gaining some ground on there.

People have been talking about this supposed gap for decades, certainly since the second divorce referendum, and numerous efforts have been made to occupy it, so much so that two have gone under the same name - The National Party. However, as someone on politics.ie once put it, none have even threatened mediocrity. I fail to see why when such parties were unable to make any headway back in the 1990s, when a sizeable chunk of the population did share their views, they should do so now, or in five years or however you conceive of 'eventually'.

Brian? · 10-05-2019 4:29pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

I think a PD’s/UKIP style party with a strong whip system telling candidates to shut their mouth on social issues like abortion and SSM would do well, its the downfall of most of these.

So you want dishonest politicians who don't speak their minds on social issues? I would never vote for someone who kept shtum and only towed the party line on all issues. I think most people would agree.

Theres definitely space for a party thats tough on crime and immigration with a lower taxes and lower spending but completely avoids iona dogma or having an opinion on abortion. Careful candidate selection and filtering of membership to keep out the likes of the sherlock family and a full SIPO registration and clear donor rules needed.

All parties talk a good game on being "tough on crime", I have never seen a party campaign on being weak on crime. It's just varying approaches. What does tough on immigration actually mean? If you approach immigration on with an economic view and not a social one, you'd actually be pro immigration.

Careful candidate selection is straightforward enough, but then you're actually subverting the normal candidate selection process so it's no longer a democratic decision within the party.

Filtering membership? No, you're limiting membership. So what you're espousing is an astroturf movement rather than a grass roots one. The first time you turn away new members you've killed the party.

What you want is more of a private club that runs candidates in elections and not an actual political party. Unless you actually want a fascist party where all the shots are called by the leader/leadership. I know you're not a fascist, so it might be worthwhile reflecting on this.

Having said all this. The "space" you have identified is extremely small. How do I know? Political parties get elected based on their manifesto. Their manifestos are based on what's popular/what will get them elected. Your abstract conservative concepts of being "tough" on crime and immigration are not popular.

Being in favour of lower taxes will get you votes. Being in favour of lower spending will not. Unfortunately it's popular to lower taxes and spend more.

Quin_Dub · 10-05-2019 5:28pm

Thrashssacre wrote: »

There is a gap in the Irish political scene for a party slightly further along the right wing spectrum to renua. If you look at the rest of Europe far right party’s tend to get around 10% of the vote or more in cases where the parties are a bit more established an politically savvy like in Italy. so to think that base just doesn’t exist in Ireland would be fairly foolish. I think eventually the national party may even fill that gap if they gain more members who are willing to be a voice for the party apart from Justin Barratt. Their stuff on YouTube is well edited and comes across very clean. Both the national party and irexit party seem to be doing a lot better online in the last 2 months or so but that may not be much of an indication of support as the numbers of subscribers aren’t exactly huge. There was a video a while back that got 150k views on one of their channels but it has since been removed, but clearly they are gaining some ground on there.

There really isn't.

If there was a market for further to the right of Renua then who exactly are those voters voting for today , because it's not Renua.

Are they all abstaining, waiting in the wings for their perfect match?

There isn't a structured right wing in this country and never has been.

At various times we've had single issue groups that gain a bit of short term traction - Anti-Immigration , Anti-Abortion , Anti-Divorce , Anti-Traveler (e.g. Casey) and the like but none have ever managed to move beyond those single issue blips to build an actual fully fledged right-wing "base"

And there's nothing to suggest that will change anytime soon.

briany · 10-05-2019 6:51pm

The terms conservative and liberal, left and right, are not meaningless, but they could truly be applied to almost no-one in the sense of defining that person. How can a person who holds a mixture of stances on different issues label themselves in a general fashion? If someone is conservative when it comes to gay marriage, but not bothered by unmarried heterosexual couples having kids, their stance isn't even social conservatism, because their problem appears to be with only one 'non-traditional' living situation. And the waters would get even muddier if someone holding that view was otherwise secular.

So, when a person asks, "Where are the conservatives in Ireland?", they're actually asking "Where are the people who are conservative on the specific issue I'm concerned about?"

Even conservatism as it's generally understood in the West has contradictions within it, like favouring neo-liberal economics.

Loafing Oaf · 10-05-2019 7:15pm

briany wrote: »

The terms conservative and liberal, left and right, are not meaningless, but they could truly be applied to almost no-one in the sense of defining that person. How can a person who holds a mixture of stances on different issues label themselves in a general fashion? If someone is conservative when it comes to gay marriage, but not bothered by unmarried heterosexual couples having kids, their stance isn't even social conservatism, because their problem appears to be with only one 'non-traditional' living situation. And the waters would get even muddier if someone holding that view was otherwise secular.

So, when a person asks, "Where are the conservatives in Ireland?", they're actually asking "Where are the people who are conservative on the specific issue I'm concerned about?"

Even conservatism as it's generally understood in the West has contradictions within it, like favouring neo-liberal economics.

In fairness to the OP, he painted a fairly coherent picture of his version of conservatism. Unfortunately for him, it's a worldview that only a small minority subscribe to in Ireland today. And most of those that do seem content to vote for FF and FG, even though those parties do not have conservative positions on most of the issues he raises.

friendlyfun · 10-05-2019 10:49pm

briany wrote: »

The terms conservative and liberal, left and right, are not meaningless, but they could truly be applied to almost no-one in the sense of defining that person. How can a person who holds a mixture of stances on different issues label themselves in a general fashion? If someone is conservative when it comes to gay marriage, but not bothered by unmarried heterosexual couples having kids, their stance isn't even social conservatism, because their problem appears to be with only one 'non-traditional' living situation. And the waters would get even muddier if someone holding that view was otherwise secular.

So, when a person asks, "Where are the conservatives in Ireland?", they're actually asking "Where are the people who are conservative on the specific issue I'm concerned about?"

Even conservatism as it's generally understood in the West has contradictions within it, like favouring neo-liberal economics.

Some in political science would even argue that conservativism is more of an attitude than an ideology.

Brian? · 11-05-2019 9:01am

friendlyfun wrote: »

Some in political science would even argue that conservativism is more of an attitude than an ideology.

That's interesting. I think I agree.

The opposite to conservatism isn't socialism, it's progressivism. But there's a large overlap between social progressives and socialists.

The word "liberal" had lost all meaning so I just ignore it these days.

Hotblack Desiato · 11-05-2019 12:06pm

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

People also have the rather annoying inability to tell the difference between moderate and extremist when talking about religion - either religion.

Simple really

Their religion which oppresses women and gays = moderate

Someone else's religion which oppresses women and gays = extremist

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

I've never been a fan of "a la carte" anything - it implies that you should let someone else establish your view point on everything without any personal thought whatsoever.

Surely that's the opposite way around.

The a la carters are picking and choosing from the religion/party whatever aligns with their beliefs and rejecting whatever does not.

The fundamentalists swallow the doctrine / party line whole and no thinking is necessary.

Hotblack Desiato · 11-05-2019 12:06pm

Thrashssacre wrote: »

There is a gap in the Irish political scene for a party slightly further along the right wing spectrum to renua.

Given the spectacular failure of Renua and all attempts at a fundamentalist catholic party, no. No there isn't a gap.

Viewing a video on the internet isn't an endorsement or a vote.

These videos get shared a lot in a "look what this bunch of eejits said now" way.

Thrashssacre wrote: »

but renua made a lot of mistakes and came from a split in a party which wasn’t exactly liked to begin with.

That party you're talking about was, and is now, the largest in the country, so if they're not liked then how liked is Renua on 1%?

briany · 11-05-2019 12:19pm

Brian? wrote: »

That's interesting. I think I agree.

The opposite to conservatism isn't socialism, it's progressivism. But there's a large overlap between social progressives and socialists.

I don't think a lot of those conservative on the issues of gay marriage and universal basic income would say that those concepts are progressive at all. They might argue that gay marriage is regressive because it thwarts the traditional nuclear family - something they might regard as essential to an optimal upbringing of children. And they could call UBI regressive because it cuts out, or loosens, the motivation to strive and work hard and better oneself.

A conservative can even argue that they are classical liberals and that modern liberalism is a bastardisation of the term.

Ultimately, it's very hard to say what unifying thread is common through those who lean left/liberal and what thread is common through the right/conservative side. We sort of have a formless idea of what these sides represent, but it's a question of what example of something in one side couldn't be met with a counter example of the same thing in the other.

Hotblack Desiato · 11-05-2019 2:29pm

briany wrote: »

A conservative can even argue that they are classical liberals and that modern liberalism is a bastardisation of the term.

Seeking to interfere in the bedroom activities of consenting adults has nothing whatsoever to do with classical liberalism.

Ultimately, it's very hard to say what unifying thread is common through those who lean left/liberal and what thread is common through the right/conservative side. We sort of have a formless idea of what these sides represent, but it's a question of what example of something in one side couldn't be met with a counter example of the same thing in the other.

That's because the left=liberal and right=conservative thing is a fallacy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_compass

Hotblack Desiato · 11-05-2019 2:56pm

Here's an example of the sort of candidate which might chime with the OP - 1991 locals.

https://irishelectionliterature.com/2009/09/09/christian-principles-party-jobs-for-youth-not-condoms/

Raising the marriage age to 18 doesn't sound very biblical, though...

James Brown · 13-05-2019 1:41pm

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Here's an example of the sort of candidate which might chime with the OP - 1991 locals.

....

Raising the marriage age to 18 doesn't sound very biblical, though...

Ah, but that's what this is all about, taking 'God's word' and twisting it to suit your agenda. You leave out the parts that don't tally, 'love they' neighbour', 'do unto others as you would do unto me' etc.

Eric Cartman · 13-05-2019 6:56pm

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Here's an example of the sort of candidate which might chime with the OP - 1991 locals.

trade unions, the environment, money for stay at home mothers, he's just staunch catholic labour.

Larbre34 · 14-05-2019 3:24am

For a long time in Ireland, every party was Conservative, even the socialist ones! Such was the church influence. And by extension, it will take a generation or two yet for that textbook conservatism to emerge from its association with the church.

Its odd really, there is an opportunity there I feel for a one-nation tory style party that isnt synonymous with abortion, divorce and gay marriage, but paternalism, pragmatism and small-C capitalism. Fine Gael were the closest but they're so centrist now im surprised the fence hasnt sliced them in half yet. I guess we had the PDs but they were killed off like so many others by being the hind tit.

At the moment Im only a centre left voter because it most represents the social liberalism i believe in, but i wouldnt rule out voting for a more conservative group that is tougher on fiscal discipline and law and order while leaving the marquee social issues up to the individual.

James Brown · 14-05-2019 2:00pm

Larbre34 wrote: »

For a long time in Ireland, every party was Conservative, even the socialist ones! Such was the church influence. And by extension, it will take a generation or two yet for that textbook conservatism to emerge from its association with the church.

Its odd really, there is an opportunity there I feel for a one-nation tory style party that isnt synonymous with abortion, divorce and gay marriage, but paternalism, pragmatism and small-C capitalism. Fine Gael were the closest but they're so centrist now im surprised the fence hasnt sliced them in half yet. I guess we had the PDs but they were killed off like so many others by being the hind tit.

At the moment Im only a centre left voter because it most represents the social liberalism i believe in, but i wouldnt rule out voting for a more conservative group that is tougher on fiscal discipline and law and order while leaving the marquee social issues up to the individual.

I don't think such a party would gain any traction. People have moved on. I know there's always room for the backward 'conservative' ways in the US, but as you say, we are still coming out from under the yoke of the Catholic church. It will be some time before we see anyone getting nostalgic about that IMO.
Politically, (policy wise) and economically Fine Gael sell themselves as fiscally conservative, but they are far from it. It's merely that they waste monies on deals with private business than invest in projects beneficial to the public. And I don't buy into their idea that helping business grow helps everyone, we see that's not so, with a growing economy and growing crises.
In short, the middle is were the votes are for now and pretenders like FF/FG are happy to espouse whatever 'values' keep them in the power seats, as shown by their current agreement.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 14-05-2019 2:13pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

trade unions, the environment, money for stay at home mothers, he's just staunch catholic labour.

Ahead of his time, really.

James Brown · 14-05-2019 2:37pm

I get the impression it's more 'a woman's place is in the home' than any socialist vent.

Nobelium · 07-06-2019 12:22am

Ireland likes to go for extremes, combined with a divide and conquer strategy.

We went from gangsters with English accents controlling the country using divide and conquer, to gangsters with Irish accents controlling the country with divide and conquer

Then we went from intolerant right wing zealots obsessed with sexual and identity politics and control by divide and conquer, to intolerant left wing zealots obsessed with sexual and identity politics and control by divide and conquer.

plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.

James Brown · 07-06-2019 6:58pm

Nobelium wrote: »

Ireland likes to go for extremes, combined with a divide and conquer strategy.

We went from gangsters with English accents controlling the country using divide and conquer, to gangsters with Irish accents controlling the country with divide and conquer

Then we went from intolerant right wing zealots obsessed with sexual and identity politics and control by divide and conquer, to intolerant left wing zealots obsessed with sexual and identity politics and control by divide and conquer.

plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.

That's the best trick though. Blaming 'left wing zealots' for all the things you might not like in modern society, yet we've the same political cartels running the country as we did 60/70 years ago.

BluePlanet · 07-06-2019 7:12pm

Nobelium wrote: »

Ireland likes to go for extremes, combined with a divide and conquer strategy.

Disagree.
Ireland is increasingly socially liberal but votes conservatively.
There's not one single 'extremist' candidate out there, other than say that culchie in Kerry.
But even in that people there are still voting for family dynasties.

Nobelium · 07-06-2019 7:45pm

Matt Barrett wrote: »

That's the best trick though. Blaming 'left wing zealots' for all the things you might not like in modern society, yet we've the same political cartels running the country as we did 60/70 years ago.

no same play . . just different actors this time . . and another transfer of power from one set of intolerant bigots to another.

AndrewJRenko · 16-06-2019 3:25pm

Nobelium wrote: »

Ireland likes to go for extremes

Extremes like Fianna Fail and Fine Gael? The two parties so centrist that they have white lines running down their back?

suicide_circus · 16-06-2019 3:52pm

i do find that i'm politically homeless in Ireland as my socio political outlooks is fair schizophrenic; some conservative ideas (personal responsibility, law and order) but also non conservative notions (universal healthcare, decriminalization of drugs). I suppose its unreasonable of me to expect to find a party to cater to my particular set of tastes so I have to compromise.

A Shropshire Lad · 16-06-2019 5:09pm

Its only a matter of time until we have more extreme politics. I think people are growing sick and tried of the same old stuff every election. They are paying high taxes and getting sh*t services, public spending is out of control with zero accountability.

Its already happened in the US and happening in the UK. We generally follow suit

Brian? · 16-06-2019 5:42pm

suicide_circus wrote: »

i do find that i'm politically homeless in Ireland as my socio political outlooks is fair schizophrenic; some conservative ideas (personal responsibility, law and order) but also non conservative notions (universal healthcare, decriminalization of drugs). I suppose its unreasonable of me to expect to find a party to cater to my particular set of tastes so I have to compromise.

I find it interesting whenever people say they believe in law and order. As if everyone doesn’t. I can’t think of a political philosophy that’s pro criminality and disorder.

Also, personal responsibility isn’t a conservative notion. It’s actually a liberal one. It’s far more conservative to regulate things like drug use, censor erotic content and rigidly enforce adherence to the norm.

Seatbelts are a great example. Conservatives would be in favour of laws dictating you wear your seatbelt. The only one you can harm by not wearing it is yourself. A liberal/libertarian idea would be: “ if you don’t wear it and die in an accident then tough”

I’m an anti authoritarian socialist, who also happens to be a pacifist and I believe in everything you do.

suicide_circus · 16-06-2019 5:55pm

a country which allows consecutive sentences, bail and early release for people with multiple serious convictions is not pro law and order. thats what i mean. when i say personal responsibility i mean providing for yourself and your family through the sweat from your own brow.. i mean realising all services and hand outs you receive from the state are provided by your fellow citizens under the threat of imprisonment. I mean not building a bungalow outside a rural village and expecting city centre services.

Brian? · 16-06-2019 6:02pm

suicide_circus wrote: »

a country which allows consecutive sentences, bail and early release for people with multiple serious convictions is not pro law and order. thats what i mean.

Yes. I know. Agreed.

when i say personal responsibility i mean providing for yourself and your family through the sweat from your own brow..

Agreed. But it means a lot more than. To me it means accepting the consequences of your own actions and not blaming others for your own failures.

i mean realising all services and hand outs you receive from the state are provided by your fellow citizens under the threat of imprisonment.

I’d much prefer to live in a society of willing participants that required no central authority, but your statement is not inaccurate.

I mean not building a bungalow outside a rural village and expecting city centre services.

As I said. Personal responsibility.

I get the impression that you don’t think we should agree? None of what you post is entirely a conservative idea.

suicide_circus · 16-06-2019 6:14pm

i dont mind if we agree, in fact the more agreement the better!

I am probably well left of centre but there are a few elements to recent leftist thought that i just cannot get on board with i.e. the stuff originating on US campuses which has become fashionable. A general victimology i suppose you'd call it.

i'd like to see the state under my feet rather than over my head. No gods, no masters, but i'm not sure humans can live like that.

AndrewJRenko · 16-06-2019 9:22pm

Brian? wrote: »

Seatbelts are a great example. Conservatives would be in favour of laws dictating you wear your seatbelt. The only one you can harm by not wearing it is yourself. A liberal/libertarian idea would be: “ if you don’t wear it and die in an accident then tough”

That's not true - you may well harm other people in the same vehicle if you go flying round after a collision. In particular, unrestrained rear seat passengers will go flying head-to-head into restrained front seat occupants.

Loafing Oaf · 16-06-2019 9:28pm

A Shropshire Lad wrote: »

Its only a matter of time until we have more extreme politics. I think people are growing sick and tried of the same old stuff every election. They are paying high taxes and getting sh*t services, public spending is out of control with zero accountability.

Its already happened in the US and happening in the UK. We generally follow suit

Yeah we slavishly follow international political trends. It's not like out politics has been based around a civil war divide for the last century or anything.

Mr_Man2121 · 16-06-2019 9:45pm

pablojml wrote: »

I'm not very familiar with the political parties of Ireland, and would like to ask where or which are the conservative parties in Ireland, not the fake ones, I mean the real conservatives who are for core family values, there are only two genders , a family is a man a woman and children, homosexuality is not a normal lifestyle and can be overcome (not hating it but not promoting it), safe borders, controlled immigration and not massive influx of ilegal immigration, parents are the main educators of children not schools, abortion means killing a baby (after 12 weeks, maybe 16) [/B] rights come from God and not men, not being driven by emotios but by logic, etc etc. Are they extinct? I am finding it really hard to find a political party with such great values. Are there any groups that anyone can join? Regards to all.

The ones in bold are the ones I agree with. I don't know how anyone could support conversion therapy. Renua are the closest to your beliefs. They have very little support.

A Shropshire Lad · 16-06-2019 9:57pm

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

Yeah we slavishly follow international political trends. It's not like out politics has been based around a civil war divide for the last century or anything.

That might be the stupidest comment I have read today

j8wk2feszrnpao · 16-06-2019 10:34pm

A Shropshire Lad wrote: »

That might be the stupidest comment I have read today

Why? It's based on the the fact that the two biggest parties remain FF and FG, neither of which have extreme policies. We may in fact be returning to FF in power, so pretty much back to the same old stuff.
Maybe it depends on your definition of "extreme", but we are nowhere near what's happened in the US or the UK.
Not sure how we "generally follow suit" either unless you have a very large number of examples. We are on a much different course than the UK, and watching some of the reversals on abortion in a number of US states, they are a different path than us on that topic.

Loafing Oaf · 17-06-2019 12:19am

munstermagic11 wrote: »

Maybe it depends on your definition of "extreme", but we are nowhere near what's happened in the US or the UK.

Indeed. The closest we have to Trumps and Farages - the likes of Ben Gilroy, Gemma O'Doherty and Harman Kelly - received derisory votes in the recent European elections.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 17-06-2019 9:23am

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

munstermagic11 wrote: »

Maybe it depends on your definition of "extreme", but we are nowhere near what's happened in the US or the UK.

Indeed. The closest we have to Trumps and Farages - the likes of Ben Gilroy, Gemma O'Doherty and Harman Kelly - received derisory votes in the recent European elections.

Peter Casey did ok on the im-a-businessman-vote-for-me ticket.

Brian? · 17-06-2019 10:31am

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

That's not true - you may well harm other people in the same vehicle if you go flying round after a collision. In particular, unrestrained rear seat passengers will go flying head-to-head into restrained front seat occupants.

Ok. That’s a reasonable argument for wearing seatbelts when you’re not alone. I’m not sure it has any bearing on my point though.

Brian? · 17-06-2019 10:36am

suicide_circus wrote: »

i dont mind if we agree, in fact the more agreement the better!

I am probably well left of centre but there are a few elements to recent leftist thought that i just cannot get on board with i.e. the stuff originating on US campuses which has become fashionable. A general victimology i suppose you'd call it.

i'd like to see the state under my feet rather than over my head. No gods, no masters, but i'm not sure humans can live like that.

The type of people you’re referring to are a sub section of the left, not the majority. Socialism is concerned primarily with economic theory and not identity politics. I’d encourage you to read some Slavoj Zizek, I don’t agree with him on a lot of things but he’s far more representative of the modern left that most people think.

The college campus screamers, what some call SJWs are just better publicised. Mainly by right wing commentators looking to paint the entire left with the same brush. Some right wing commentators have a vested interest in painting the left as a bunch of irrational loons. You never see them taking on Zizek etc though.

ancapailldorcha · 17-06-2019 10:53am

A Shropshire Lad wrote: »

That might be the stupidest comment I have read today

This sort of post is unacceptable here. Please read the charter before posting again.

The Late Late Show · 17-06-2019 5:21pm

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

Indeed. The closest we have to Trumps and Farages - the likes of Ben Gilroy, Gemma O'Doherty and Harman Kelly - received derisory votes in the recent European elections.

And let's hope it stays this way. Peter O'Loughlin is another of these types who received no support whatsoever. I cannot see why Trump is even involved in the politics he is in? A casino owner siding with Gilead? That's like a turkey voting for Christmas! And as for Farage: I cannot see how anyone could support him and what he is trying to do.

Peter Casey was the only successful enough equivalent we had here. Once I heard his negative comments, I did not give him any vote in the presidential election or would not vote for him in any election.

Eric Cartman · 17-06-2019 6:42pm

The Late Late Show wrote: »

And let's hope it stays this way. Peter O'Loughlin is another of these types who received no support whatsoever. I cannot see why Trump is even involved in the politics he is in? A casino owner siding with Gilead? That's like a turkey voting for Christmas! And as for Farage: I cannot see how anyone could support him and what he is trying to do.

Peter Casey was the only successful enough equivalent we had here. Once I heard his negative comments, I did not give him any vote in the presidential election or would not vote for him in any election.

Ben and gemma are completely off the deep end compared to trump and farage, you might not like them but ben and gemma have more in line with alex jones conspiracy theory levels of extreme racism than just plain old conservatism.

Where are the conservatives in Ireland?

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