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Electric, Hydrogen & Hybrid Electric Buses in Ireland

12357…30

Comments

  • #202
    dublinman1990
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,533 ✭✭✭dublinman1990


    Creative Master Northcord have announced that AH1 from Dublin Bus will be getting made as a diecast model. The production date for it is late June 2020.
    From British Models Buses website:

    UKBUS1500 Range

    NMC will relaunch the model based on the casting of the Alexander ALX400 – bodied Dennis Trident opentop in 2020.

    UKBUS1501 – megasightseeing.com (18496 – LX06AHC)

    UKBUS1502 – Stagecoach North West “the White Lady” (17012 – S812BWC)

    The pre-production samples of both items for checking are in the course of being prepared with an anticipated production slot being available during early April 2020.

    UKBUS6500 Range

    UKBUS6516 – Stagecoach South Gold (10770 – SN66VYR): production is scheduled for completion by early January 2020.

    UKBUS0063 – Ensign Bus (132 – YX66WLH): production is scheduled for completion by the end of January 2020.

    UKBUS6519 – Stagecoach Oxford Gold (10786 – SN66VZH): production is scheduled for completion by early March 2020.

    UKBUS6520 – Stagecoach South 700 Coastliner (10942 – SN18KNF): pre-production samples for checking are in the course of being prepared with an anticipated production slot being available during early June 2020.

    KBUS6521 – Xplore Dundee (6695 – SK68MBO) pre-production samples for checking are in the course of being prepared with an anticipated production slot being available during early May 2020.

    IEBUS0005 – Dublin Bus (AH1 – 191-D-44403) pre-production samples for checking are in the course of being prepared with an anticipated production slot being available during late June 2020.

    UKBUS6524 – Stagecoach North West 555 Lakes Connection (10555 – SN16ONX): pre-production samples for checking are in the course of being prepared with an anticipated production slot being available during early July 2020.

    UKBUS6526 – National Express West Midlands (6937 – SK68MJE) pre-production samples for checking are in the course of being prepared with an anticipated production slot being available during early August 2020.


  • #203
    p_haugh
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,242 ✭✭✭p_haugh


    Alexander Dennis Facebook page just announced that they’ve signed a framework agreement with the NTA to provide up to 600 Enviro 400ER hybrid buses, with an initial 100 due by autumn 2020. Seems like the AH won out
    see here


  • #204
    Idbatterim
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,853 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    I assume these hybrid buses use regenerative breaking?


  • #205
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,985 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Idbatterim wrote: »
    I assume these hybrid buses use regenerative breaking?

    Most Hybrids do yes. The 400ER mentioned above certainly does.
    p_haugh wrote: »
    Alexander Dennis Facebook page just announced that they’ve signed a framework agreement with the NTA to provide up to 600 Enviro 400ER hybrid buses, with an initial 100 due by autumn 2020. Seems like the AH won out
    see here

    The 400ER, that is great news, that is a top of the range modern Hybrid.

    It has a relatively large 32kWh battery, that compares to just 2kWh battery that traditional hybrid buses use and is more then the original Nissan Leaf full EV car had (24kWh).

    This means that the bus can actually run in pure EV mode for a few km and that this can be controlled by GPS. So for instance, they could set these up so that they only run in pure EV mode when in the city center. A great feature.


  • #206
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,985 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Also interesting that they mention that they are 11m long, that is longer then the existing SG class (I think 10.5m). So maybe a small bit more room for passengers.


  • #207
    thomasj
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,834 ✭✭✭thomasj


    bk wrote: »
    Also interesting that they mention that they are 11m long, that is longer then the existing SG class (I think 10.5m). So maybe a small bit more room for passengers.

    Yeah it had me wondering might they be a replacement for the VTs?


  • #208
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,985 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    thomasj wrote: »
    Yeah it had me wondering might they be a replacement for the VTs?

    Well the VT's are 12m, so not quiet a direct replacement. Plus they say 100 ordered for this year and possibly 600 over the next 5 years, so that sounds more like a replacement for the normal dual axle buses.

    Having said that with the extra length, there might be less pressure for a direct VT replacement. These buses on the same route, with slightly more frequency, might be a decent enough replacement.


  • #209
    L1011
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,542 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Prioritise these on to cross city routes and the emissions concern about Parliament Street from the college green plaza plan goes away


  • #210
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,985 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    L1011 wrote: »
    Prioritise these on to cross city routes and the emissions concern about Parliament Street from the college green plaza plan goes away

    Yep, I was thinking exactly the same. I'm guessing it was a major motivator for this choice.


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  • #211
    CatInABox
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,396 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    Buses bought.

    Alexander Dennis got the contract, 100 Enviro400Er Battery/Diesel buses in the first tranche, up to the full 600. Glad that they went with an established bus already, no point trialing out new tech on our streets, we can't afford for anything to go wrong.

    See here.


  • #212
    thomasj
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,834 ✭✭✭thomasj


    CatInABox wrote: »
    Buses bought.

    Alexander Dennis got the contract, 100 Enviro400Er Battery/Diesel buses in the first tranche, up to the full 600. Glad that they went with an established bus already, no point trialing out new tech on our streets, we can't afford for anything to go wrong.

    See here.

    66 passengers? :Confused:


  • #213
    belfast stephen
    Registered Users Posts: 172 ✭✭belfast stephen


    thomasj wrote: »
    66 passengers? :Confused:


    Wonder what the price was between ADL and Wrightbus I have heard Dublin bus were very happy with the Volvo B5LH and have heard from many people that the After sales is terrible from ADL


  • #214
    thomasj
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,834 ✭✭✭thomasj


    belfast stephen wrote: »
    Wonder what the price was between ADL and Wrightbus I have heard Dublin bus were very happy with the Volvo B5LH and have heard from many people that the After sales is terrible from ADL

    According to the independent piece linked, there wasn't a bid from Wrightbus because they were in administration at the time.


  • #215
    GM228
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,922 ✭✭✭GM228


    thomasj wrote: »
    According to the independent piece linked, there wasn't a bid from Wrightbus because they were in administration at the time.

    But Wrightbus went into administration 5 months after the tender.


  • #216
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,985 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    thomasj wrote: »
    66 passengers? :Confused:

    Probably just the number of seats, doesn't include standing passengers. I believe the SG class has 67 seats.
    GM228 wrote: »
    But Wrightbus went into administration 5 months after the tender.

    Was the original tender not just for 3 buses from each company for a trial and subsequent use by DB? I'd assume the bigger tender went out after the trial.

    And even if they had tendered, I'd assume it would be null and void when they went into administration.


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  • #217
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,686 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    This is excellent news in that it is not an off the shelf product and is not the same vehicle as an AH, so those who are expecting to get such a vehicle will be in for a shock.

    It is a longer vehicle, with an interior and exterior design that is based on NTA specifications which will become apparent in due course. It is also based on the Enviro 400 City design and not the MMC design seen on the AH.

    I believe as part of this deal Alexander Dennis are investing heavily in a support network for the vehicles.


  • #218
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,686 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    This thread is for the discussion of the Dublin Bus Demonstrator vehicles currently on trial with the company.

    If you wish to discuss today's news about an order for 600 Hybrid vehicles from Alexander Dennis by the NTA, please use the dedicated thread below which has been created due to the significance of this news.

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2058050021

    - Moderator


  • #219
    dublinman1990
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,533 ✭✭✭dublinman1990


    Oh. That's great news. I will be happy with travelling on these buses once they come into Dublin.

    It is a big change from using the SG's most of the time.

    I would like to hear some first impressions about these buses in the UK. Are they any good to use as a driver or as a passenger?


  • #220
    ax586
    Registered Users Posts: 234 ✭✭ax586


    devnull wrote: »
    This is excellent news in that it is not an off the shelf product and is not the same vehicle as an AH, so those who are expecting to get such a vehicle will be in for a shock.

    It is a longer vehicle, with an interior and exterior design that is based on NTA specifications which will become apparent in due course. It is also based on the Enviro 400 City design and not the MMC design seen on the AH.

    I believe as part of this deal Alexander Dennis are investing heavily in a support network for the vehicles.


    You do realise Dublin bus will be involved in this..I mean the nta asked the Dublin bus design committee to be involved..so more like it will be something like a Dublin bus spec


  • #221
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,985 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    ax586 wrote: »
    You do realise Dublin bus will be involved in this..I mean the nta asked the Dublin bus design committee to be involved..so more like it will be something like a Dublin bus spec

    I've no doubt that Dublin Bus, Go Ahead and maybe even Bus Eireann would all have been heavily involved. They are all stakeholders in this, so of course would be asked for their opinion. GA probably would have a lot of input given their experience with ADL in London.


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  • #222
    ax586
    Registered Users Posts: 234 ✭✭ax586


    bk wrote: »
    I've no doubt that Dublin Bus, Go Ahead and maybe even Bus Eireann would all have been heavily involved. They are all stakeholders in this, so of course would be asked for their opinion. GA probably would have a lot of input given their experience with ADL in London.

    Yea thought so aswel..A rumour doing the rounds is GA might not be getting any as someone high up said they have a young fleet at the moment now as I said it's a rumour


  • #223
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,985 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    ax586 wrote: »
    Yea thought so aswel..A rumour doing the rounds is GA might not be getting any as someone high up said they have a young fleet at the moment now as I said it's a rumour

    Sure, that makes sense, I wouldn't expect GA to get any from the first batch of 100 and maybe not for 3 or 4 years, but they would probably eventually get some.

    As you say GA are mostly newer Euro 5/6 GT and SG buses. I'd assume they will continue to follow previous years example of replacing the 100 oldest buses in the city fleet each year.

    So probably replace the AV/VT/AX's over the next year or so and then the EV/VG's after that. Obviously the VT's would be the one with the question mark over them, will be interesting to see what they do there.

    Those represent about 350 buses or so of the 600. Once your through those, you'd be into the Euro 5 GT's, so then you might see some of them turning up with GA.

    It also makes sense given that DB mostly operate the through city center routes, where they would really benefit from the EV operation mode. GA being the more outer routes need this less.

    Despite that, I'd be shocked if they didn't get input from GA given their experience in London and with ADL.


  • #224
    dublinman1990
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,533 ✭✭✭dublinman1990


    What will happen with these buses when they go to BÉ? Are they due to receive new double deckers any time soon?


  • #225
    Idbatterim
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,853 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    How much more are these than a typical diesel bus ? Was there’s a point in going for a middle ground instead of just waiting for fully electric or do we legally have to embrace these new buses ?


  • #226
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,985 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Idbatterim wrote: »
    How much more are these than a typical diesel bus ? Was there’s a point in going for a middle ground instead of just waiting for fully electric or do we legally have to embrace these new buses ?

    I can't find an article now, but I remember a previous order of SG classes buses being 400k each. These seem to be 50k more at 450k each.

    Having said that keep in mind inflation and the lack of any competitors with just one tender, you'd expect to pay more either way.

    Also keep in mind that these should have significantly lower fuel costs, so the total cost of ownership may end up similar or perhaps even cheaper.

    I'm not sure we "legally" have to buy these, but it is definitely government policy to shift to zero emission vehicles * and I don't think it would look good at all for the NTA to continue buying Diesel only buses for the next 5 years. They were already receiving a lot of public criticism over the past 2 years.

    Also this shift is likely to help greatly with routing buses down different streets and the quays and busconnects. These should help lessen the objections to buses causing extra pollution and noise to residents. 50k extra is a dropping in the ocean compared to 2 billion busconnects project, so I think it is money well spent.

    * As an aside, I was delighted last Monday while driving through the city that I noticed not one, but 4 An Post fully EV vans! Nice job by An Post in making the switch to full EV.


  • #227
    Idbatterim
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,853 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    Thanks bk very informative. No fifty extrae each is nothing , it’s not like double the cost and fifty k is a drop in ocean. Is anyone manufacturing double decker electric yet ?


  • #228
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,985 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Idbatterim wrote: »
    Thanks bk very informative. No fifty extrae each is nothing , it’s not like double the cost and fifty k is a drop in ocean. Is anyone manufacturing double decker electric yet ?

    ADL do one in partnership with the Chinese bus manufacturer BYD, the Enviro400EV and the Optare Metrodeck is another one.

    The issue is lack the range for a full days operations on Dublins relatively long routes and the other issue is that they put the batteries in the back of the lower deck, so reduce the number of passengers they can carry by a couple of people, which isn't good. I think the battery tech needs to advance further to make them more energy dense, so more range in lighter and smaller battery packs.


  • #229
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,754 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    Will the new buses include digital advertising billboards instead of paper.


  • #230
    patrickbrophy18
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,310 ✭✭✭patrickbrophy18


    Will these only be deployed to Dublin Bus or a mix of them and Go Ahead?


  • #231
    ax586
    Registered Users Posts: 234 ✭✭ax586


    patrickbrophy18 wrote: »
    Will these only be deployed to Dublin Bus or a mix of them and Go Ahead?

    Rumour has it DB and BE but mainly DB as GAI have a very young fleet


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  • #232
    Polar101
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,896 ✭✭✭Polar101


    So what does this mean for the overall bus numbers at DB/GAI - with old buses being replaced gradually, will there actually be more buses in service?


  • #233
    dfx-
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 15,693 Mod ✭✭✭✭dfx-


    bk wrote: »
    Probably just the number of seats, doesn't include standing passengers. I believe the SG class has 67 seats.

    Oh dear. That is not a good thing for the people on board and those waiting, even if the only emissions are rainbows. The lessons of squashed SGs on VT routes are not being learned.


  • #234
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,686 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    dfx- wrote: »
    Oh dear. That is not a good thing for the people on board and those waiting, even if the only emissions are rainbows. The lessons of squashed SGs on VT routes are not being learned.

    The vehicle is 11m which is not exactly short for a double decker and you also have to take into account that a hybrid vehicles will have more equipment installed than a standard full diesel so that will mean less room for passengers and more for equipment for the various systems.

    Would you care to point me towards a hybrid vehicle for the UK/Ireland market of a VT type length that has the range that the Enviro 400 ER has? Surely there must be one if it is such a no brainer?


  • #235
    dfx-
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 15,693 Mod ✭✭✭✭dfx-


    If there isn't a comparable length and capacity (without pretending you can fit 30 standees) then you don't voluntarily replace what you currently have until there is.

    We have had eight years of GTs and SGs with seating of 67ish and another ten years of these with seating of 66 and passenger demand only going up. Twenty years with no increase of capacity, but any number of plans that will make it work eventually...

    Why are we still ordering buses with a seated capacity of 66?


  • #236
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,985 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    dfx- wrote: »
    If there isn't a comparable length and capacity (without pretending you can fit 30 standees) then you don't voluntarily replace what you currently have until there is.

    Because, they are getting old and they will start breaking down on the road with passengers on them, which doesn't look good for public transport and is likely to drive people back to their cars.

    There are very good reasons to keep the fleet young.
    dfx- wrote: »
    We have had eight years of GTs and SGs with seating of 67ish and another ten years of these with seating of 66 and passenger demand only going up. Twenty years with no increase of capacity, but any number of plans that will make it work eventually...

    Why are we still ordering buses with a seated capacity of 66?

    Because for the most part they fit our narrow roads and streets well. Bigger buses don't. Just like London Bus (most of which actually have less seats).

    And you can also increase capacity by increasing the number and frequency of buses.

    After all, China manages to move around over a billion people on exclusively single decker buses.


  • #237
    dfx-
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 15,693 Mod ✭✭✭✭dfx-


    China could move people around on minibuses. South Africa does on deathtrap minibuses, but it is still not the way to go..

    We keep saying it and it keeps being posted that it can be done by increasing fleet size and frequency but it is not happening. There is no advantage to having 200 new buses when the next three 66s are bursting full to Chapelizod/13 to Kilmainham/15 to Terenure etc etc..

    The thing that will get people back to their cars more than anything else is standing waiting in the cold and then holding onto a handrail standing on a bus for weeks on end per year. Standing on a full bus with fogged up windows is a miserable bus experience to the most important person,the passenger - whatever is coming out of the exhaust pipe.


  • #238
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,985 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    dfx- wrote: »
    We keep saying it and it keeps being posted that it can be done by increasing fleet size and frequency but it is not happening.

    But it has already happened! When GA won the contract, the size of the overall Dublin Bus fleet has increased by 10% and as routes have been transferred to GA, DB has been increasing frequency on their core routes.
    dfx- wrote: »
    The thing that will get people back to their cars more than anything else is standing waiting in the cold and then holding onto a handrail standing on a bus for weeks on end per year.

    People already do that on the VT's and DART and Luas too! We had previous experience with buses that were left get too old and broke down frequently. It looked terrible and is partly what drove so many people to cars in the first place. Keep the fleet young and well maintained has helped greatly improving reliability, which is why so many people are using the bus and are packed onto it now. This is something we definitely don't want to be back sliding on.

    Hopefully ADL produces a 500ER some day and we can use those on suitable routes. But there really aren't that many routes suited to big tri-axles. What we really need is BusConnects and of course Metrolink, Dart Expansion, etc. The Tri-axles really don't give you much more capacity, they themselves are just a band-aid.


  • #239
    thenightman
    Registered Users Posts: 561 ✭✭✭thenightman


    Very disheartening to hear these are actually a decrease in capacity. As someone who spends €1450 a year and at least 80 mins a day currently standing on jam packed Dublin Buses morning and evening (after the first two 13's don't stop at all) I would have assumed someone competent in the NTA would have considered a capacity increase on new buses to be a good idea.

    The people making the more buses = more capacity are forgetting that Dublin has little to no bus priority, so throwing more smaller buses down the north quays, D'olier Street or Naas Road doesn't really solve anything. You still get passed by the first two full buses, and two empty ones arrive 15 minutes later. The experience is still miserable and off putting to those who have the option of driving.

    Still, at least they've moved away from the awful uncomfortable Wrightbus!


  • #240
    dfx-
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 15,693 Mod ✭✭✭✭dfx-


    bk wrote: »
    But it has already happened! When GA won the contract, the size of the overall Dublin Bus fleet has increased by 10% and as routes have been transferred to GA, DB has been increasing frequency on their core routes.

    The 'expansion' has happened, but the 66s/13s/15s/39s/27s are still full near the city. Even the 24hr routes are busy, demand is up. It hasn't had the impact that it had been long promised that it would.
    bk wrote: »
    People already do that on the VT's and DART and Luas too! We had previous experience with buses that were left get too old and broke down frequently. It looked terrible and is partly what drove so many people to cars in the first place. Keep the fleet young and well maintained has helped greatly improving reliability, which is why so many people are using the bus and are packed onto it now. This is something we definitely don't want to be back sliding on.

    Hopefully ADL produces a 500ER some day and we can use those on suitable routes. But there really aren't that many routes suited to big tri-axles. What we really need is BusConnects and of course Metrolink, Dart Expansion, etc. The Tri-axles really don't give you much more capacity, they themselves are just a band-aid.

    That experience is nearly 30+ years old now with KDs and Ds/DFs. The RVs never broke down, even now the AXs rarely broke down and it's very rare to see a broken down EV/VG/VT. The early AVs did, but they were a brand new type. We've got to get over the unreliability of the KDs in the 21st century.

    DARTs and Luas doesn't compare to the breadth of service of the bus network. It's a city that runs (or stands waiting) by its bus service. For the level of investment over eight years, the passenger is getting the same product in capacity (and NTA committing to 600 more of them!) and same chance of getting on board or indeed less as the demand goes up with the fare for the same seats and same quality of journey.


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  • #241
    donvito99
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,818 ✭✭✭donvito99


    Are we talking here about the loss of one seat?


  • #242
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,140 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    donvito99 wrote: »
    Are we talking here about the loss of one seat?


    1 seat adds up when it's 1 seat per bus.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words.



  • #243
    donvito99
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,818 ✭✭✭donvito99


    end of the road wrote: »
    1 seat adds up when it's 1 seat per bus.

    Do we know how many standees are accommodated yet?

    Considering most buses in my experience are not exactly full despite passing full, the loss of a seat could be quickly reversed capacity wise by merely encouraging passengers to move down the bus and occupy all seats upstairs.

    If the NTA are required to procure hybrid vehicles, I would prefer that they procure what is mechanically and ergonomically the best vehicle short one seat as opposed to a mangy vehicle liable to discourage people to travel by bus despite the same amount of seats as at present.


  • #244
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,985 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    end of the road wrote: »
    1 seat adds up when it's 1 seat per bus.

    But increased standing space, so it can carry per passengers per bus.


  • #245
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,686 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    donvito99 wrote: »
    Do we know how many standees are accommodated yet?

    Considering most buses in my experience are not exactly full despite passing full, the loss of a seat could be quickly reversed capacity wise by merely encouraging passengers to move down the bus and occupy all seats upstairs.

    If the NTA are required to procure hybrid vehicles, I would prefer that they procure what is mechanically and ergonomically the best vehicle short one seat as opposed to a mangy vehicle liable to discourage people to travel by bus despite the same amount of seats as at present.

    The VT is the least efficient bus in the Dublin Bus fleet by far. Literally I've seen people from abroad point and laugh at how you can have such a big bus with one door and one staircase. There is a reason that nowhere else in Europe has done this so far and it's not because we are rocket scientists and the are not.

    I have been on many VTs I have been sitting on seats toward the back upstairs and have seen person after person walk up the stairs, turn their head around, look down the front half of the bus and gone back downstairs, despite well into double figures of seats being free. Last year I even had a few occasions where the number of seats free were over 20 yet the bus started driving past stops where people were holding the hands out because it was 'full'. That is a problem.

    Any benefits of the VTs are not realised because of their chronic, dreadful dwell times and the fact that even when you supply the extra seats, people just congregate at the front of the bus downstairs rather than going all the way to the back downstairs where there probably are seats, and people can't even be bothered to look for a seat properly upstairs, so you don't really make use of them anyway in my experience. I'm not saying that tri-axles are bad, just that if you are going to use them, you need to make sure that they are used to their potential and the fare and boarding system in Dublin doesn't do that, the same as the Bendy buses were completely unsuitable for such system too.

    The one thing I do know is that from taking 46As at peak time in the past is that a journey is always slower on the VTs because of the chronic dwell time which probably means that any gain in capacity is lost by increased journey time and if you can have a fleet of 20 tri axles operating every 8 minutes or a fleet of 20 two axles operating every 6 minutes the increased capacity due to the increased frequency possible with the later is going to pretty much wipe out the additional per bus at a lower frequency and it is more likely that the capacity will be utlitised on the two axles rather than the three axles where it is more likely to be wasted by people not looking all the way to the back.


  • #246
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,686 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    dfx- wrote: »
    The 'expansion' has happened, but the 66s/13s/15s/39s/27s are still full near the city. Even the 24hr routes are busy, demand is up. It hasn't had the impact that it had been long promised that it would.

    I would imagine that there is another round of capacity increases coming with the next lot of deliveries. The Dublin City bus network had the biggest expansion of services and frequency for a long time last year with approx 125 extra buses on the road. That is a big number and there are still more buses due to be delivered that were supposed to be delivered in 2019 but got delayed because of the administration of WrightBus.
    That experience is nearly 30+ years old now with KDs and Ds/DFs. The RVs never broke down, even now the AXs rarely broke down and it's very rare to see a broken down EV/VG/VT. The early AVs did, but they were a brand new type. We've got to get over the unreliability of the KDs in the 21st century.

    Some of the RVs were very ropey coming towards the end of their days but you would expect that. The AXs are 13 years old but in a couple of years time or so then I would imagine they will certainly be on the right hand side of the bathtub curve so yes, we can keep vehicles on longer than with the KDs, but I wouldn't want to be going beyond 14/15 years or so. The biggest problem with the older vehicles though is that they simply guzzle fuel and are bad for the climate.
    the passenger is getting the same product in capacity (and NTA committing to 600 more of them!) and same chance of getting on board or indeed less as the demand goes up with the fare for the same seats and same quality of journey.

    What do you want the NTA to do?
    a) Keep buying diesel buses and order them in higher capacities and to hell with the climate, since climate change doesn't exist.
    b) Buy the kind of hybrid vehicles they are buying in the longest possible version that a manufacturer believes is reliable.
    c) Specify the new hybrid vehicles with seats for tiny people with minimum leg-room to fit more people in.
    d) Buy unproven technology and hope for the best and risk the public moaning every day that their bus breaks down.

    If the quality of journey on the modern SG vehicles that most patrons travel on was so bad, then surely you would not be seeing the passenger numbers going up and instead you would be seeing them crashing down, as after all you seem to suggest less seats = less passengers and worse quality journey and since every month almost for the last 5 years there has been less and less ALX400s and more and more SGs, you'd expect to see some effect of that if your hypothesis was true?


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  • #247
    dfx-
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 15,693 Mod ✭✭✭✭dfx-


    donvito99 wrote: »
    Are we talking here about the loss of one seat?

    no, replacing the fleet as it stood in 2012, every AV/AX with an SG or GT loses ten seats per bus (6,500), replacing a VT is 25 seats per bus (1700), EV/VG is about 5 seats lost and there's 130ish of them (500+).

    The buses have relatively all the same standing capacity, perhaps the VT could carry more standing but it's negligible. A full SG will hold 85ish in total, a full VT holds 110 or so. A full SG means people are up against the doors making exit through the centre doors no easier than the front.

    But ultimately if you are waiting on a 39A for example, your chances of getting on board are considerably affected by whether it is a VT or SG coming your way.


  • #248
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,985 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    dfx- wrote: »
    no, replacing the fleet as it stood in 2012, every AV/AX with an SG or GT loses ten seats per bus (6,500), replacing a VT is 25 seats per bus (1700), EV/VG is about 5 seats lost and there's 130ish of them (500+).

    The buses have relatively all the same standing capacity, perhaps the VT could carry more standing but it's negligible. A full SG will hold 85ish in total, a full VT holds 110 or so. A full SG means people are up against the doors making exit through the centre doors no easier than the front.

    Hold on there. The AV/AX are just 9.9m long, EV 10.2m and VG/GT 10.4m and SG 10.5m. These new Envrio400ER's will be 11m

    So of course there is going to be overall more passenger capacity on these longer 400ER's

    Of course the AV/AX's had more seats, as they didn't have the center door nor separate buggy bay. But they also had much less standing space. AV/AX's were just 15 standing, versus 27/28 for the SG's.

    It is a trade off of course, less seats, but more passengers and more space for accessibility (buggies/wheelchairs) and better passenger flow through the middle door.

    Here is the actual capacity of different models (upstairs seats | downstairs seats | standing | total):
    AV/AX 49 + 27 + 15 = 91
    EV 47 + 26 + 21 = 94
    VG 45 + 28 + 15 = 88
    GT 45 + 22 + 16 = 83
    SG 45 + 22 + 28 = 95 (142 reg)

    Obviously we will need to wait and see, but I'd assume the 400ER will be even slightly better then the SG given it is longer.


  • #249
    dowlingm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,337 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    Think a key point in deciding whether a fleet replacement is a drop in capacity should also be the spares ratio. Will a given number of 400ERs be dispatchable on a given day when accounting for scheduled and unscheduled maintenance compared to what they are planned to replace? If the newer buses can maintain a lower spares ratio then you can (subject to drivers and NTA) look at adding service. If a higher spares ratio (because of more complex systems being finicky) then in addition to fewer seats you are now looking at retaining older buses to keep the show on the road...


  • #250
    dfx-
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 15,693 Mod ✭✭✭✭dfx-


    Where on earth do you fit 28 people standing on an SG. Is it a Tardis? Twelve more than a GT for 0.1m space.

    20 on an EV is ambitious. 15 or so is a decent in service expectation with bags, buggies, shopping, wheelchairs, backpacks and all sorts of commuting paraphenalia. That brings it back towards a total of low 80s.


  • #251
    thenightman
    Registered Users Posts: 561 ✭✭✭thenightman


    dfx- wrote: »
    Where on earth do you fit 28 people standing on an SG. Is it a Tardis? Twelve more than a GT for 0.1m space.

    20 on an EV is ambitious. 15 or so is a decent in service expectation with bags, buggies, shopping, wheelchairs, backpacks and all sorts of commuting paraphenalia. That brings it back towards a total of low 80s.

    13 including myself people standing on a SG this evening on the 17:00 69 and there was zero space available. Every time the bus lurched forward from a junction in the annoying/borderline dangerous way an SG does you'd be banging into your fellow standees.

    People crammed standing in the middle door section too, meaning they're pretty pointless for getting off. People also standing up the aisle to the front door, making getting off an ordeal. Anyone who believes you could fit 28 standees needs to come back to reality, and anyone who believes you can tempt people onto public transport providing this level of service is seriously deluded.


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